So, lot's been said about how 5E is bringing back a lot of old school ideas, but I think it's worth noting that there seem to be some ideas in it which stem from 4E - but, depending on exactly how 5E implements these, it might make them much more palatable (for me at least) than 4E did. Let's talk about those.
For my part, I actually like the idea of all PCs being able to get back some hit points in a rest between fights, for a bunch of reasons:
- It resolves the paradox where hit points are held to represent a combination of luck and grit and capability to avoid serious wounds rather than being a simple wound tracker except when you talk about regaining hit points, where suddenly the only way to get them back is to resort to natural or magical healing. If hit points don't necessarily represent actual wounds, surely they should be able to be replenished by means which don't involve the healing of wounds, after all.
- Pitching these as "rests" rather than "healing surges" means that you still need to actually survive to the end of a fight to use them, rather than being able to shrug off a bunch of damage mid-fight, which makes sense.
- Requiring longer rests the more you take in a day feels like it makes IC sense - the more strenuous encounters you've had in the day, the more fatigued you're likely to be, and the more of a breather you're likely to need to feel rested. In that sense it's kind of like a fatigue system that doesn't require extensive tracking of fatigue points, which is neat.
- If they get the magnitude right, it extends the adventuring day in a more interesting way than just bumping the party up to full hit points and replenishing all their spells. Hit points come back, but all other resources are still expended, so the party has to take note of that. Ideally, the recovery should be enough that if people took a few minor scrapes in the fight they should be able to shrug them off, but if the PCs took a serious pasting they'll still be hurting and will still need to consider whether to press on or retreat and regroup.
Obviously, I'll need to see how this works in action before I decide whether the mechanic's been rehabilitated (I'm assuming anything in the playtesting documents could have changed before the system was finalised), but I think it's a nice example of a mechanic which isn't a flat-out stupid idea, just one which was badly handled in 4E.
It's definitely like multiclassing for me, something I need to see in action before I messed with it. Luckily the DMG will be invaluable for these situations. All you'd have to do is use the "gritty" world or "fragile heroes" dial or some combination thereof and done.
Quote from: Warthur;755327For my part, I actually like the idea of all PCs being able to get back some hit points in a rest between fights, for a bunch of reasons:
To me this just encourages the "fights per day" /combat as sport style of play. Hit points are more like superhero stun points and are treated as a daily resource if you make them so.
I don't miss the hit points restore that much. Though I did like the fact you start off with a lot of hp at level 1. A lot of room for newbies.
Really the one thing I miss about 4e is the minions, normal, elite, and solo rules. I loved that method of monster creation as it allows plenty of room to customize your game. Want a dark and gritty game? Make that murderer into a solo monster. Want a epic fantasy? Treat those immortal beings as mere minions.
Quote from: Snowman0147;755343I don't miss the hit points restore that much. Though I did like the fact you start off with a lot of hp at level 1. A lot of room for newbies.
Really the one thing I miss about 4e is the minions, normal, elite, and solo rules. I loved that method of monster creation as it allows plenty of room to customize your game. Want a dark and gritty game? Make that murderer into a solo monster. Want a epic fantasy? Treat those immortal beings as mere minions.
Technically it has always been possible to make one hit minions in any version of dnd.
A 1E 2HD Gnoll with 2 hp is pretty darn close to a one hit minion if the pc's minimum damage is a 2+ (very likely)
Personally I think 4E minions work wonderfully mechanically, but I don't think 'high level' monsters minions make as much sense as low level ones.
A level 12 fighter cutting down 'average' ogres works for me. But a level 12 fighter cutting down fire giants with one hit is iffy.
Quote from: Bill;755354Technically it has always been possible to make one hit minions in any version of dnd.
A 1E 2HD Gnoll with 2 hp is pretty darn close to a one hit minion if the pc's minimum damage is a 2+ (very likely)
True. But I hope minions are still covered in the DMG combat modules.
Quote from: Bill;755354Personally I think 4E minions work wonderfully mechanically, but I don't think 'high level' monsters minions make as much sense as low level ones.
A level 12 fighter cutting down 'average' ogres works for me. But a level 12 fighter cutting down fire giants with one hit is iffy.
Agreed. Again, that's under the control of the DM. But I only use minions for monsters that are no more than half as powerful as the PCs.
I didn't keep up with the later playtests - is 5E incorporating the 4E save mechanic? Where saves are always a simple 10 or higher, and the duration of an effect lasts until a save is made? Because that just made so much sense and is so much easier than tracking durations that it's a no-brainer for me to use with any D&D going forward.
Thing about 4E is setting aside all the mechanics around tactical manouevers and the AEDU power schedule, there are a lot of tweaks and innovations that make the game easy and fast to run, irrespective of how you play. I hope WotC doesn't throw the baby out the with bathwater and discard mechanics that had broad utility outside the 4E tactical skirmish playmode.
Quote from: Haffrung;755359I didn't keep up with the later playtests - is 5E incorporating the 4E save mechanic? Where saves are always a simple 10 or higher, and the duration of an effect lasts until a save is made? Because that just made so much sense and is so much easier than tracking durations that it's a no-brainer for me to use with any D&D going forward.
Thing about 4E is setting aside all the mechanics around tactical manouevers and the AEDU power schedule, there are a lot of tweaks and innovations that make the game easy and fast to run, irrespective of how you play. I hope WotC doesn't throw the baby out the with bathwater and discard mechanics that had broad utility outside the 4E tactical skirmish playmode.
Good question about saves.
I think 4E leans a bit too far toward 'saves are trivial' and 1E leans a bit too far towards 'zap you dead!'
Personally I hope 5E is in the middle of that.
No tracking is ideal if you ask me.
Maybe 4E should have had nastier effects, but kept the core save system.
Saves are your ability scores only like Castles and Crusades.
Quote from: Haffrung;755359I didn't keep up with the later playtests - is 5E incorporating the 4E save mechanic? Where saves are always a simple 10 or higher, and the duration of an effect lasts until a save is made? Because that just made so much sense and is so much easier than tracking durations that it's a no-brainer for me to use with any D&D going forward. .
Nope. Saves are against a DC that can vary, depending on the monster who attacked/cast a spell at you. But most debilitating saves (like paralysis) are "make a new save each round. You are freed after X amount of time, or when you make your save."
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755370Nope. Saves are against a DC that can vary, depending on the monster who attacked/cast a spell at you. But most debilitating saves (like paralysis) are "make a new save each round. You are freed after X amount of time, or when you make your save."
What about the infamous, message board imploding, Level Drain?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755370Nope. Saves are against a DC that can vary, depending on the monster who attacked/cast a spell at you. But most debilitating saves (like paralysis) are "make a new save each round. You are freed after X amount of time, or when you make your save."
OK. So they went halfway there. I just think making saves a duration timer for effects is brilliant - tracking durations being one of the things that's a pain in the ass in every edition of the game.
Quote from: Bill;755372What about the infamous, message board imploding, Level Drain?
There is no level drain in 5e. Not that I remember anyway. The other big one is stuff like finger of death. In 5e, it auto kills anything with less than 40 hp. For creatures with more than 40hp, they get a Con save and take 12d8 damage (half on save)
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755375There is no level drain in 5e. Not that I remember anyway. The other big one is stuff like finger of death. In 5e, it auto kills anything with less than 40 hp. For creatures with more than 40hp, they get a Con save and take 12d8 damage (half on save)
Current hp of 40, or max hp of 40?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755375There is no level drain in 5e. Not that I remember anyway. The other big one is stuff like finger of death. In 5e, it auto kills anything with less than 40 hp. For creatures with more than 40hp, they get a Con save and take 12d8 damage (half on save)
So what a 5e mage does is prepare her save or die spell and wait to drop the hammer after the front line guys soften them up.:)
Quote from: Bill;755377Current hp of 40, or max hp of 40?
Current.
Quote from: Marleycat;755379So what a 5e mage does is prepare her save or die spell and wait to drop the hammer after the front line guys soften them up.:)
Yep. It also makes lower level spells like sleep still effective at high levels, where in older versions of D&D, most targets would make their saving throw or had too much HD to be affected. In 5e, the total # of spells might be a lot less than AD&D, but each spell level still remains effective.
Another thing I like. It also makes sense, IMO. If you look at HP like energy, once you get a target worn down, beat down, wounded, and near exhaustion, a low spell like sleep can still work when it normally wouldn't when they are full of energy.
Quote from: Marleycat;755380Current.
Mmmmm...Tactics.
Quote from: Bill;755387Mmmmm...Tactics.
The kind of tactics you do without needing grids, maps, or minis. Otherwise known as, the kind of tactics I like :D
Quote from: Bill;755387Mmmmm...Tactics.
Yessir, that's why you have at-will cantrips. You have your slot spells ready for when an opportunity presents itself. Let the fighter be the hammer because you're the nail in the coffin.
Quote from: Marleycat;755389Yessir, that's why you have at-will cantrips. You have your slot spells ready for when an opportunity presents itself. Let the fighter be the hammer because you're the nail in the coffin.
Wizards are good problem solvers.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755375There is no level drain in 5e. Not that I remember anyway.
These days, when I even bother with scary effects like that, I prefer "level lock" effects where you don't lose any XP but you can't
gain any XP until the effect has been removed. You get the same amount of healthy metagame fear out of the players with 75% less of the table-flipping outrage and despondency.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755375There is no level drain in 5e. Not that I remember anyway. The other big one is stuff like finger of death. In 5e, it auto kills anything with less than 40 hp. For creatures with more than 40hp, they get a Con save and take 12d8 damage (half on save)
No level drain per se, but most of the attacks that once did that have been replaced by an energy drain mechanic that reduces your hit point ceiling (by the amount of level draining damage you take) until you take a long rest. This also prohibits most "magical" healing in the interim. (Unless you're the target of a greater restoration spell - which is 7th level.)
Quote from: Saplatt;755406No level drain per se, but most of the attacks that once did that have been replaced by an energy drain mechanic that reduces your hit point ceiling (by the amount of level draining damage you take) until you take a long rest. This also prohibits most "magical" healing in the interim. (Unless you're the target of a greater restoration spell - which is 7th level.)
Ahh, the old "save or suck" for a long time is back.
Quote from: Bill;755354Technically it has always been possible to make one hit minions in any version of dnd.
A 1E 2HD Gnoll with 2 hp is pretty darn close to a one hit minion if the pc's minimum damage is a 2+ (very likely)
Personally I think 4E minions work wonderfully mechanically, but I don't think 'high level' monsters minions make as much sense as low level ones.
A level 12 fighter cutting down 'average' ogres works for me. But a level 12 fighter cutting down fire giants with one hit is iffy.
Depends on the setting. Play a game as gods and the fire giants would be minions. Play a game of mortals and the fire giants would be at least elite.
Quote from: Haffrung;755359I didn't keep up with the later playtests - is 5E incorporating the 4E save mechanic? Where saves are always a simple 10 or higher, and the duration of an effect lasts until a save is made? Because that just made so much sense and is so much easier than tracking durations that it's a no-brainer for me to use with any D&D going forward.
4e saves make logical sense, but I found them one of the worst in-play mechanics there is.
Player A does her thing on her turn. The table is excited and high energy. Player B immediately starts jumping into his turn describing what he is doing. Everyone at the table forgets about the turn-end save (or was it turn beginning save, cannot recall offhand).
Then halfway through Player B's turn, somebody remembers Player A's save. The whole table's attention shifts from the fun stuff happening for the roll of the save die. This juxtaposition cuts straight into the table's excitement level.
Old style duration in rounds has a die sitting next to the player as a reminder. Also, simply ticking off another round does not divert table attention to nearly the extent of a roll.
In fairness, the overwhelming majority of DMs I've played with do not emphasize increasing the table energy in combat to nearly the extent I do when I DM. A more placid table mood in combat doesn't suffer from this like my style does.
Quote from: Old One Eye;755415Then halfway through Player B's turn, somebody remembers Player A's save. The whole table's attention shifts from the fun stuff happening for the roll of the save die. This juxtaposition cuts straight into the table's excitement level.
In practice, I found that rarely happened - most players wanted their conditions removed enough that they *damn well* remembered they had an opportunity to save.
Quote from: Marleycat;755412Ahh, the old "save or suck" for a long time is back.
Until you sleep is a long time?
Quote from: CRKrueger;755425Until you sleep is a long time?
From what he said it monkeys with your HP cap in some way. I could have misunderstood though.
Quote from: Marleycat;755412Ahh, the old "save or suck" for a long time is back.
I don't think it's quite as bad. The hit-point penalty does suck, but at least you keep your ability scores, saving throw scores, attack and damage bonuses, all your spells and so forth. Unless they kill you, you don't have to sit out the rest of the encounter or adventure and twiddle your thumbs.
And regaining your full health with one long rest is a lot easier than regaining enough experience points to get back a lost level.
But a number of hits from energy drainers before you get to some sort of sanctuary could definitely be deadly - which, I think, is a viable way to make them dangerous in a special, creepy way.
So, I'm fine with it. If anything, I bet players underestimate energy drainers the first time they meet them.
Quote from: Marleycat;755428From what he said it monkeys with your HP cap in some way. I could have misunderstood though.
Just until you get a long rest.
Or until you get a spell like greater restoration cast on you if you don't have the hotel fee for the overnight stay.
Umm, nope, none of those examples I want back. Hated surges, hated save-roll to shake it off. One was too much HP to play with putting strategy in the back seat, and the other was tedious bookkeeping maintenance in the round when we could just use a die to represent ticking off of rounds. Nope, hated both.
I'm currently looking askance at Proficiency from the playtest we are currently using, which is roughly based on level. Hated 4e's 1/2 lvl bonus to things as well, and I already hate this too, even if it is in my character's favor. So... still waiting to see an example I might appreciate.
Rituals were interesting, in a vague democratization of utility spells during down time in a high magic game. But that'd be more setting specific for me. Keep going, maybe there is a 4e thingie that might be rehabilitated into 5e that I am forgetting.
I did misunderstand still it seems to be a decent solution. I hated losing levels it wasn't bad at low levels but once you reached between 9-12th level it wasn't funny and caused a lot of people to quit the campaign or even the game in some cases.
I enjoyed how 4e turned Ref, Fort and Will into passive traits like AC. It made no difference math wise, but made all the defenses the same mechanically, and spellcasting in combat more "active feeling"
I also liked how the monster stat blocks were laid out. very easy to read at the table and self contained, no looking at feat tables mid combat. That and recharge monster abilities.
Quote from: Snowman0147;755414Depends on the setting. Play a game as gods and the fire giants would be minions. Play a game of mortals and the fire giants would be at least elite.
Agreed.
Quote from: CitrusMagic;755584I enjoyed how 4e turned Ref, Fort and Will into passive traits like AC. It made no difference math wise, but made all the defenses the same mechanically, and spellcasting in combat more "active feeling"
I also liked how the monster stat blocks were laid out. very easy to read at the table and self contained, no looking at feat tables mid combat. That and recharge monster abilities.
Yep. Those were two innovations that jumped out at me as well.
Yeah I didn't mind the saves being a passive trait. It just made spells feel more active instead of being effects that pop up.
Rituals! My god how did I forget those gems. Those certainly saved me a few times and it is nice seeing my rogue elf actually resurrect people. Adds more utility power for her.