Quote from: Drohem;279587Seriously... I think that the rabid 4e fans have surpassed the die hard Palladium fanbois in fervor.

That's why I call them Zealots, it is the religious fervor with which they demonstrate their faith in 4E.

Quote from: kregmosier;279551ahhh...Dungeons & Dragons: Tactics, eh?

it's a miniatures game.  i signed on for a role-playing experience; this is Chutes & Ladders with swords.  not sure what's more pathetic...the game design, or the anime-loving beardos defending it like it was their fat girlfriend.  

is that good?

Almost perfect, except the final sentence should end with "...against wheezing basement-dwellers who have somehow wedged their fat, bloated asses in front of the computer screen to once again wail about how 4e is nothing more than a minis game, since of course this would possibly involve having to actually stand up on their atrophied legs from time to time."

Ah yes, perfection...

4e kicked me while I was down!

Quote from: Drohem;279587Seriously... I think that the rabid 4e fans have surpassed the die hard Palladium fanbois in fervor.

Where is all this taking place? On RPG.net or EN World? I don't frequent either site much these days. The forums I do frequent seem to have more reasoned discussions, but if anything, I see more 4e bashing than rabid fanboy zealotry.

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;279597Where is all this taking place? On RPG.net or EN World? I don't frequent either site much these days. The forums I do frequent seem to have more reasoned discussions, but if anything, I see more 4e bashing than rabid fanboy zealotry.

I don't frequent EnWorld so I can't comment on that site, but I have personally experienced this on the RPG.net D20 forums.

Quote from: jeff37923;279593That's why I call them Zealots, it is the religious fervor with which they demonstrate their faith in 4E.

Oh, I don't know, they seem to have a long ways to go to catch up to the "old school" crowd.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;279544My mate bought it a couple of weeks ago (ie xmas), so I took a look.

Where do all those races come from: tieflings? Eldarin?

Buffy. Lord of the Rings.

This is a compliment by the way. I think RPGs should enable people to play what's popular, rather than trying to create their own world.

So far Warthur wins the thread, though I wish he had a place for cookie cutter classes and powers in his rant.

Quote from: boulet;279601So far Warthur wins the thread, though I wish he had a place for cookie cutter classes and powers in his rant.

To be honest, I don't really have a problem with cookie cutter classes - I'm fond of pre-3rd edition D&D, after all. And powers aren't a completely terrible idea, I just feel that they're poorly implemented.

For what it's worth, I don't have any beef with 4E fans: they just dig something that I'm not personally into. I don't like the vitriol which is flung back and forth between the two sides, but then again I can't remember a time when there hasn't been bullshit and wailing going on between zealous fans of the current edition of D&D and hardcore detractors of the same.

Quote from: Drohem;279598I don't frequent EnWorld so I can't comment on that site, but I have personally experienced this on the RPG.net D20 forums.

I used to experience that on the d20 forums over there.  But then they blocked me.  

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;279597...but if anything, I see more 4e bashing than rabid fanboy zealotry.

This is the case. What happens is the anti-4e crowd creates threads like this one; goes beyond posting merely their opinions about 4e (and its players) and starts telling us that the game is objectively bad, et al.; and then whine like little bitches when they get called on it.

You don't believe that? Sign into a site and post a new message entitled, "I Don't Like 4e." Don't say anything beyond, "Well, my group and I tried 4e and it just wasn't for us. We ran through an adventure, but at the end of it, we decided to switch back to 3.5."

You know what kind of response you'll get? The sound of crickets. Because no one gives a damn if you don't like 4e.

Seanchai

Quote from: Warthur;279535Actually, the skill challenge system in general is a major source of aggravation to me because it represents a shift away from character-and-world focused gaming to system-focused gaming: I find that a great many people have trouble relating the skill challenge rules to the in-game action ("Wait, the fact that the thief failed to get the information we need in the docks means I definitely can't get the information we need from the library? What the fuck?"), and the usual response is to step out of character and "game the system". Whilst I do believe that immersion is possible in just about any RPG, I've rarely seen one which is more hostile to immersion than 4E: it's like the system regularly throws cold water over your head and yells "you're playing a game! your character is just a playing piece! don't worry about your character's motives and just game the system!"

This is the singlemost significant criticism, the most essential thing you can say is wrong with 4e. It kills immersion and emulation of genre.  It does it because Mearls and friends have swallowed the Forger poison, so they believe that actually wanting to lose yourself in a fantasy world or feel like your character is real is somehow mentally wrong. Instead, you're supposed to, nay, OBLIGED to see your character as just a bunch of statistics and the point is to perfect yourself in the game system, a game system where the setting is nothing but window-dressing.  And yes, skill-challenges are the PERFECT example of this. It doesn't matter what your characters actually DO, or how they roleplay, it only matters that they get x number of successes before getting y number of failures on a bunch of skill rolls.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Seanchai;279611This is the case. What happens is the anti-4e crowd creates threads like this one; goes beyond posting merely their opinions about 4e (and its players) and starts telling us that the game is objectively bad, et al.; and then whine like little bitches when they get called on it.

You don't believe that? Sign into a site and post a new message entitled, "I Don't Like 4e." Don't say anything beyond, "Well, my group and I tried 4e and it just wasn't for us. We ran through an adventure, but at the end of it, we decided to switch back to 3.5."

You know what kind of response you'll get? The sound of crickets. Because no one gives a damn if you don't like 4e.

Seanchai

Look! Its a Zealot getting defensive about 4E!

Quote from: ColonelHardisson;279597Where is all this taking place? On RPG.net or EN World? I don't frequent either site much these days. The forums I do frequent seem to have more reasoned discussions, but if anything, I see more 4e bashing than rabid fanboy zealotry.

Quote from: Drohem;279598I don't frequent EnWorld so I can't comment on that site, but I have personally experienced this on the RPG.net D20 forums.

I'd have to say there is a good amount (masked behind mod-evasive passive aggressiveness) at ENWorld and a great amount at RPGnet's d20 forum.

They didn't like me at ENWorld.  Also, Plane Sailing is a Nazi douchebag, but that's completely beside the point.