Quote from: Pierce InverarityNo, dumb WOTC.

Yeah. They also found out that Jeff Perren still had some of the rights to Chainmail after they published the miniatures line and skirmish game. Oops. (As it turns out, it was only trademark, and they settled for $500. But still.)

Quote from: jgants:confused:

That statement is not even close to being true.  D&D's various versions had absolutely nothing to do with RuneQuest, Harn, or Rolemaster.

They gave a fuck less about competing for fans of other RPGs.

It's not about competing for fans of other RPGs.  It's about what your existing customers demand.  If your competitor is offering a superior looking option with more features, then even very loyal fans will whine.

When I entered the market in 1986, the options for D&D were BECMI and 1E, and  BECMI was so much superior looking to 1E that it was hard to accept that 1E was more advanced.  The idea of graduating from Basic to Advanced had no appeal, and I was playing a lot of Chaosium games in the year before 2nd Edition came out, mostly Call of Cthulhu, ElfQuest and Pendragon.  The superior, polished look of Chaosium's games was a big part of the appeal.  They just looked more professional.

I don't know, maybe TSR did exist in some fantasy world economy where advancements made by one's competitors have no influence on one's own developments, but I don't think they did.  I think TSR was actually a bit behind the curve when 2nd Ed. came out, and if they'd really been on the ball the reprintings of the core rule books would have had more than just new covers.

Quote from: JackalopeIt's not about competing for fans of other RPGs.  It's about what your existing customers demand.  If your competitor is offering a superior looking option with more features, then even very loyal fans will whine.

When I entered the market in 1986, the options for D&D were BECMI and 1E, and  BECMI was so much superior looking to 1E that it was hard to accept that 1E was more advanced.  The idea of graduating from Basic to Advanced had no appeal, and I was playing a lot of Chaosium games in the year before 2nd Edition came out, mostly Call of Cthulhu, ElfQuest and Pendragon.  The superior, polished look of Chaosium's games was a big part of the appeal.  They just looked more professional.

I don't know, maybe TSR did exist in some fantasy world economy where advancements made by one's competitors have no influence on one's own developments, but I don't think they did.  I think TSR was actually a bit behind the curve when 2nd Ed. came out, and if they'd really been on the ball the reprintings of the core rule books would have had more than just new covers.

But fans weren't, by and large, clamoring for AD&D 2e.  

Second edition was the result of TSR management's idea to make the game more family-friendly as part of their strategy to become a mainstream family games company instead of catering to a niche market.

TSR at the time did not care about attracting other RPG fans, nor did they particularly care what their own fans thought.  Back then, the strategy wasn't that existing players would all buy the new edition.  The strategy was the new edition would attract new players.

TSR didn't base their productions on other products in the market because they thought they were above the market.  In their minds, they were competing with MB and Parker Brothers.  Chaosium and other RPG companies were considered insignificant and beneath them.

It didn't work, of course.  Many fans never even changed over to 2e, the mainstream still considered D&D "weird", and the plethora of boardgames they released sold poorly for the most part.

Quote from: jgantsTSR didn't base their productions on other products in the market because they thought they were above the market.  In their minds, they were competing with MB and Parker Brothers.  Chaosium and other RPG companies were considered insignificant and beneath them.

That may or may not have been true about the management, but amongst the writers at least, there was a lot of self-consciousness at the time about how D&D stood up as an RPG amongst its rivals and critics. We got crap in the PHB about how sucky scores were cool, and stuff in supplements to the tune of "proper mature campaigns aren't centered on combat."

Quote from: jgantsBut fans weren't, by and large, clamoring for AD&D 2e.

Maybe not the fans you know, but everyone I was gaming with at the time was really exicted.  We all hated 1st Ed., but wanted to graduate from Basic up to Advanced.  

QuoteTSR at the time did not care about attracting other RPG fans, nor did they particularly care what their own fans thought.  Back then, the strategy wasn't that existing players would all buy the new edition.  The strategy was the new edition would attract new players.

I'm sure that's why they did that survey of Dragon readers to find out what people wanted in the new edition.  I got everything I wanted, including a loose-leaf binder version of the monster manual.

QuoteTSR didn't base their productions on other products in the market because they thought they were above the market.  In their minds, they were competing with MB and Parker Brothers.  Chaosium and other RPG companies were considered insignificant and beneath them.

Cite?  Evidence?  Some indication that this is something other than you insulting the staff of TSR?

QuoteIt didn't work, of course.  Many fans never even changed over to 2e, the mainstream still considered D&D "weird", and the plethora of boardgames they released sold poorly for the most part.

Your mileage has varied considerably from mine.  I know a lot of people who graduated from Basic to 2E.  Pretty much every gamer in my cohort -- guys who started gaming after '85 -- adopted 2E.

Your cohort?

You entered the market??

 Yow! Talk about exaggerated self-importance.

Look folks, its a brand name and has been that for quite awhile.


- Ed C.

Quote from: JackalopeMaybe not the fans you know, but everyone I was gaming with at the time was really exicted.  We all hated 1st Ed., but wanted to graduate from Basic up to Advanced.

I didn't say no one was looking forward to it.  I'm saying that there was not a large public outcry for it.  It didn't generate near the enthusiasm that 3e did when people started hearing about it.  If anything, the majority of AD&D players were leery of it because of Gygax being removed from the project and the whole removal of "unwholesome" stuff aspect (giving off a "New Coke" vibe of sorts).

Besides, I wasn't arguing that no one went "ooh, shiny new books!!!"  I was arguing against the idea that meetings at TSR took place where someone said, "Fans are outraged our layouts don't look as nice as ElfQuest's.  We better put out a second edition, stat!"

Trust me, your little group of friends - with the idea that you wouldn't buy AD&D just because the books didn't look nice enough - was in a very small minority.  AD&D 1e was still selling quite well at the time 2e came out.

Quote from: JackalopeI'm sure that's why they did that survey of Dragon readers to find out what people wanted in the new edition.  I got everything I wanted, including a loose-leaf binder version of the monster manual.

What would you expect them to do?  If you have an in-house magazine, you pretty much have to solicit opinions, don't you?  If for nothing else, it will drive up sales of the magazines.

Besides, there is a difference here between the designers asking for input on rules and features, and the executives making product marketing plans.

Quote from: JackalopeCite?  Evidence?  Some indication that this is something other than you insulting the staff of TSR?

How about every article ever written about the history of TSR?  Or how about just seeing the products they focused on marketing at the time, and how they marketed them?  How about Dancey's in-depth report on the state of the company at its time of death?  

Again, just to be clear, I am talking about the executives here.  Lorraine and her cronies.  I'm not talking about Zeb Cook and his design team - they did what they were told and tried to do the best they could (just like anyone does when they have to work on some boneheaded project thought up by clueless executives).

Quote from: JackalopeYour mileage has varied considerably from mine.  I know a lot of people who graduated from Basic to 2E.  Pretty much every gamer in my cohort -- guys who started gaming after '85 -- adopted 2E.

I don't doubt at all that a great number of gamers who started with the BECMI rules went on to AD&D 2e.  That's exactly how I and my friends did it, too.  But the reason had a lot more to do with the fact that we changed to AD&D around the time 2e was already coming out and not because we thought 1e had too poor of production values.

Quote from: KoltarYour cohort?

You entered the market??

 Yow! Talk about exaggerated self-importance.

Look folks, its a brand name and has been that for quite awhile.


- Ed C.

There was nothing self-important about those words.  Take issue with a lot of other things in Jackalope's post, but he used those words correctly.  That you don't understand how they were used is no reason to insult the man.

Quote from: JamesVThank you for the correction. I do think my point still stands.

I think there's some truth in your point, but I think there's far more continuity of concept between OD&D and AD&D (I don't really know AD&D 2e, though I suspect there too) than with 3e.  I think 3e changes a lot of stuff fairly fundamentally, and 4e even more so.

I mean, I own Moldvay Basic and I own RC and I have a pdf of AD&D and the White Book pdfs, and there's an awful lot in common, far more than any of them with 3e which I also used to own.  Prior to 3e you have a core system attracting cruft and detail, but a lot of the developed ideas are present earlier in less complex form.

With 3e, a whole slew of new ideas come in, and personally I think at that point the game left its roots pretty substantially behind, but others disagree and in fairness they're D&D players and I'm not so arguably they're better suited to judge.

Quote from: KoltarYour cohort?

You entered the market??

 Yow! Talk about exaggerated self-importance.

What the fuck is your malfunction?  Are you just an idiot? How the fuck do you interpret that as exaggerated self-importance?  Do you even know what a cohort is, you blithering fuckwit?

Quote from: JackalopeWhat the fuck is your malfunction?  Are you just an idiot? How the fuck do you interpret that as exaggerated self-importance?  Do you even know what a cohort is, you blithering fuckwit?

OK, I am now in love with these forums and I embrace "fuckwit" as my new word of the month.  Add blithering and the insult is near perfection.  

The fact that we can just "lay it on the table" without PC bullshit is so fucking refreshing I could cry.  Seriously, I am not being sarcastic.  I read that and nearly shit myself.

Thank you, that is all.

P.S.  I think you are calling Koltar a fuckwit.  I think the guy is cool so I don't necessarily agree with your targeting but the whole statement was just funny as hell.

Hello Trechriron!,

 Welcome to these forums.

 Things are a bit different here when compared to other gamers forums.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarHello Trechriron!,

 Welcome to these forums.

 Things are a bit different here when compared to other gamers forums.


- Ed C.

Thanks!

That might be the understatement of my century.  

So far enjoying the reads and the topics.  Good stuff.