From here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a&authentic=true):
QuoteSecret worlds and invisible domains surround the world of the Dungeons & Dragons game. Godly dominions, elemental chaos, shadow kingdoms, and faerie realms are all part of the world. Most mortals know little of these things, but heroes are a different matter. Heroes often find that adventure calls them to distant and strange dimensions indeed.
The Feywild
The closest of these alternate worlds is the Feywild, or the realm of faerie. It is an "echo" of the mortal world, a parallel dimension in which the natural features of the lands and seas are arranged in much the same configuration. If a mountain stands in a given place in the mortal world, a similar mountain stands in a corresponding place in the Feywild. However, the Feywild is not an exact reproduction. Built structures and terrains are not copied in the faerie realm, so a valley dotted with farm fields and towns in the mortal world would simply exist as untouched, unsettled woodland in the Feywild.
The Feywild's many vistas can catch your breath with beauty, but the Feywild is far from safe. Heroes visiting to Feywild might encounter:
* A mossy forest glade where evil druids spill the blood of hapless travelers over the roots of the thirsting trees;
* The tower of an eladrin enchanter;
* A fomorian king's castle in the dim, splendid caverns of the faerie Underdark; or
* A maze of thorns in which dryad briarwitches guard an evil relic.
The Shadowfell
Just as the Feywild is an echo of the natural world, so is the Shadowfell. However, the Shadowfell mimics the mortal world in a different manner. The Shadowfell is the land of the dead, where the spirits of the deceased linger for a time in a dark reflection of their previous lives before silently fading beyond all ken. Some undead creatures are born in the Shadowfell, and other undead are bound to it, but some living beings dwell in this benighted realm.
Like the Feywild, the Shadowfell also reflects the mortal world imperfectly. Towns, castles, roads, and other objects built by mortal kind exist in the Shadowfell about where they should be, but they are twisted, ruined caricatures. The shadowy echo of a thriving seaport in the mortal world might be a dilapidated, desolate port whose harbor is cluttered with the rotting hulks of shipwrecks and whose busy wharves are empty except for a few silent and furtive passersby. In the Shadowfell, heroes might venture into:
* A necromancer's tower;
* The sinister castle of a shadar-kai lord, surrounded by a forest of black thorns;
* A ruined city swept by long-ago plague and madness; or
* The mist-shrouded winter realm of Letherna, where the fearsome Raven Queen rules over a kingdom of ghosts.
The Elemental Chaos
All of the cosmos is not tied to the mortal world as closely as the Feywild or Shadowfell. The natural world was created from the infinite expanse of the Elemental Chaos (or Tempest, or Maelstrom), a place where all fundamental matter and energy seethes. Floating continents of earth, rivers of fire, ice-choked oceans, and vast cyclones of churning clouds and lightning collide in the elemental plane.
Powerful beings tame vast portions of the chaos and shape it to their own desires. Here the efreeti City of Brass stands amid a desert of burning sand illuminated by searing rivers of fire falling through the sky. In other places in the Elemental Chaos, mighty mortal wizards or would-be demigods have erected secret refuges or tamed the living elements to build their domains.
Elemental creatures of all kinds live and move through the Elemental Chaos: ice archons, magma hurlers, thunderbirds, and salamanders. The most dangerous inhabitants are the demons. In the nadir of this realm lies the foul Abyss, the font of evil and corruption from which demonkind springs. The Abyss is unthinkably vast—thousands of miles in extent—and in its maw swirl hundreds of demonic domains, elemental islands, or continents sculpted to suit the tastes of one demon lord or another. Within the Elemental Chaos, heroes might explore:
* The crystalline tower of a long-dead archmage;
* A grim fortress monastery of githzerai adepts;
* The diseased Abyssal continent where Demogorgon rules amid ruined temples and bloodthirsty jungle beasts; or
* A vast polar sea lit only by the cold glitter of icebergs and flickering auroras, in which the frozen stronghold of a frost giant warlock lies hidden.
The Astral Sea
One final extradimensional realm touches on the mortal world: the Astral Sea. If the Elemental Chaos is the manifestation of physicality, the Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind. The divine realms, the dominions of the gods, drift within Astral Sea's unlimited silver deeps. Some of these are realms of glory and splendor—the golden peak of Mount Celestia, the verdant forests of Arvandor.... Others belong to dark powers, such as the Nine Hells where Asmodeus governs his infernal kingdom. A few astral dominions lie abandoned, the ruined heavens and hells of gods and powers that have fallen.
Only the mightiest of heroes dare venture into the dominions of the gods themselves. In the Astral Sea, heroes may find:
* The iron city of Dis, where the devil Dispater rules over a domain of misery and punishment in the second of the Nine Hells;
* An artifact guarded by race of cursed warriors whose castle of adamantine overlooks the war-torn plains of Acheron;
* The black tower of Vecna, hidden in the depths of Pandemonium; or
* A dragon-guarded githyanki fortress, drifting through the silver sea.
No one is knows how many astral dominions there are. Some dominions, such as the Nine Hells, are the size of worlds. Others are no larger than cities, rising like shining islets from the Astral Sea. Several dominions have been ruined or abandoned, usually because the gods who made them were destroyed or forgotten. What sorts of treasures—or perils—might slumber in such places, only learned sages could say.
This goes a hell of a long way to demolishing the slightly-too-nailed-down metaphysic of, say, Planescape or the 1E Manual of the Planes and throwing in more of the sense-of-wonder and infinite possibilities of the original conception of the planes - and I really like the way they've associated the elemental planes with raw physicality and the astral planes with more abstract concepts.
(And I have to say, I won't be weeping any tears for the disappearance of the Ethereal Plane. I never could understand the material difference between that and the Astral Plane.)
I've been pretty excited about it. My current D&D group are very negative about the new edition since the announcement, but they all really like the new cosmology too.
That is very cool. I want to adventure there. I want to explore the domain of a long dead god, a long dead faith, with ruins adrift in the astral realm. Yea, cool.
Pretty cool. Far from original, but so what?
-=Grim=-
It does sound pretty cool, I like the fairy land, makes use of many existing myths. But this point made me chucle:
Quote...The Abyss is unthinkably vast—thousands of miles in extent—
I don't know about you, but the US is about 3,000 miles across, certianly neither unthinkably vast nor undrivably vast. :) I think they should add some more zero's hundreds of thousands of miles in extent, now we're getting to a scale comparable to the distance between the Earth and moon. That's pretty unthinkable when crawlng with demon kind.
I like it. I wonder if there's still going to be a link with alignment somehow.
Quote from: Warthur...(And I have to say, I won't be weeping any tears for the disappearance of the Ethereal Plane. I never could understand the material difference between that and the Astral Plane.)
Here, here. House ruled out that old nugget long, long ago. My ethereal plane is just the space between spaces, you know the ether. A little extra dimension things can go in and out of, you can use to "short-cut" the normal three dimensions, but not a separate area where things float out there in the ether.
Quote from: Warthur(And I have to say, I won't be weeping any tears for the disappearance of the Ethereal Plane. I never could understand the material difference between that and the Astral Plane.)
IIRC, there are a Hell of a lot spells that use the Etheral Plane in them. I wonder how they will modify the spells after they get rid of the plane.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineI like it. I wonder if there's still going to be a link with alignment somehow.
I would hope, or you could certianly house rule, that gods of similar outlook for some reason maybe lost to time, wrested areas out of the chaos to form the heavens just as demonkind wrested areas out of the the chaos to form the Abyss.
Maybe there is some beneift to banding together, a non-linear effect on the power of the area you control that protects you. This maybe why the demons are all in one place; purely out of a sense of self preservation even though they hate being crowded and near each other. Because if they don't stay in thsi "safe space', the other forces would hunt them down one by one if they had scattered realms. LE and NE to enslae them, G to destroy them. Of course this has got to make a demon real mean like.
The whole creating a space sound svaguely familiar, something to do with soul wells, and creating a place in the afterworld from the amount of souls you have in your "well."
Quote from: jeff37923IIRC, there are a Hell of a lot spells that use the Etheral Plane in them. I wonder how they will modify the spells after they get rid of the plane.
Considering that the whole spell system is getting redone I doubt that will be hard.
-=Grim=-
Quote from: jeff37923IIRC, there are a Hell of a lot spells that use the Etheral Plane in them. I wonder how they will modify the spells after they get rid of the plane.
Well, it's possible you could still "go ethereal" without the ethereal being a
plane.-O
Heeeeyyyy, could this be the first thing I will like about 4e? Looks like it! Although the names are typical Cheesy Fantasy nonsense (Feywild? Shadowfell? :confused: ), but they look interesting, and what's better, adventurable. One of my biggest problems with the Great Wheel structure, especially as it was presented in Manual of the Planes, is how it discouraged planar adventuring. The planes were mostly uninteresting and deadly. This stuff looks like normal characters may visit them on 5th level or so, and survive. Nice! :cool:
I think its better in some ways and worse than others when compared to the "great wheel"; but mainly its got a couple of mistakes about how its structured that makes me think its no better and possibly worse than the GW.
I'll post more about this on my blog sometime relatively soon, in the next few days.
RPGPundit
Actually it feels not grandiose, but waaaay smaller. Dunno why, just comes of rather smallish in scope.
Quote from: XantherI don't know about you, but the US is about 3,000 miles across, certianly neither unthinkably vast nor undrivably vast. :) I think they should add some more zero's hundreds of thousands of miles in extent, now we're getting to a scale comparable to the distance between the Earth and moon. That's pretty unthinkable when crawlng with demon kind.
Yeah, there was a response to that concern in an ENWorld thread. He meant more like Jupiter's tens of thousands, just worded it badly.
There's also the argument that 3000 miles sounds small when you talk about it being the USA, and much larger when it's 3000 miles of demon-infested hostile planar terrain you travel through on foot.
As with 90% of the tidbits they've released, I'm excited about the new cosmology. In fact, the most excited about it above all other tidbits. And I really don't care what that makes me.
I like it too. Not particularly original (but then, originality is overrated if you ask me), but it does sound more usable and 'adventure-friendly' than the current default. Also, I wonder if we won't see some significant change with afterlife : what this this 'the spirits of the deceased linger for a time in a dark reflection of their previous lives before silently fading beyond all ken' business ?
Quote from: Christmas ApeYeah, there was a response to that concern in an ENWorld thread. He meant more like Jupiter's tens of thousands, just worded it badly.
There's also the argument that 3000 miles sounds small when you talk about it being the USA, and much larger when it's 3000 miles of demon-infested hostile planar terrain you travel through on foot.
As with 90% of the tidbits they've released, I'm excited about the new cosmology. In fact, the most excited about it above all other tidbits. And I really don't care what that makes me.
Ape, why do you hate the
real D&D? :haw:
Count me in as liking it too. Especially the Astral Sea, which is now in need of pirates. Gith, demons or devils, brave adventurers, whatever. Stick them in awesome looking ships and set their asses adrift.
Quote from: MelanHeeeeyyyy, could this be the first thing I will like about 4e? Looks like it! Although the names are typical Cheesy Fantasy nonsense (Feywild? Shadowfell? :confused: ), but they look interesting, and what's better, adventurable. One of my biggest problems with the Great Wheel structure, especially as it was presented in Manual of the Planes, is how it discouraged planar adventuring. The planes were mostly uninteresting and deadly. This stuff looks like normal characters may visit them on 5th level or so, and survive. Nice! :cool:
To a great extent I think that adventuring in the planes was uninteresting in 1st ed because MotP was so dry to read through. You could do a lot with it, but I for one didn't feel inspired.
To me it looks like the model for the planes in 4th ed is somewhat more close to classic D&D than to AD&D. More open, more vast.
I'd like to see what they mean to do with elemental planes, thats not entirely clear there.
Quote from: CabTo a great extent I think that adventuring in the planes was uninteresting in 1st ed because MotP was so dry to read through. You could do a lot with it, but I for one didn't feel inspired.
To me it looks like the model for the planes in 4th ed is somewhat more close to classic D&D than to AD&D. More open, more vast.
I'd like to see what they mean to do with elemental planes, thats not entirely clear there.
No?
Quote from: WarthurThe Elemental Chaos
All of the cosmos is not tied to the mortal world as closely as the Feywild or Shadowfell. The natural world was created from the infinite expanse of the Elemental Chaos (or Tempest, or Maelstrom), a place where all fundamental matter and energy seethes. Floating continents of earth, rivers of fire, ice-choked oceans, and vast cyclones of churning clouds and lightning collide in the elemental plane.
Powerful beings tame vast portions of the chaos and shape it to their own desires. Here the efreeti City of Brass stands amid a desert of burning sand illuminated by searing rivers of fire falling through the sky. In other places in the Elemental Chaos, mighty mortal wizards or would-be demigods have erected secret refuges or tamed the living elements to build their domains.
Elemental creatures of all kinds live and move through the Elemental Chaos: ice archons, magma hurlers, thunderbirds, and salamanders. The most dangerous inhabitants are the demons. In the nadir of this realm lies the foul Abyss, the font of evil and corruption from which demonkind springs. The Abyss is unthinkably vast—thousands of miles in extent—and in its maw swirl hundreds of demonic domains, elemental islands, or continents sculpted to suit the tastes of one demon lord or another. Within the Elemental Chaos, heroes might explore:
* The crystalline tower of a long-dead archmage;
* A grim fortress monastery of githzerai adepts;
* The diseased Abyssal continent where Demogorgon rules amid ruined temples and bloodthirsty jungle beasts; or
* A vast polar sea lit only by the cold glitter of icebergs and flickering auroras, in which the frozen stronghold of a frost giant warlock lies hidden.
Seems relatively clear to me. They got all smashed together into a chaotic plane the size of the Astral, with the seething wound of the Abyss smack dab in the middle.
Personally, I'm sick to death of the "mirror world" cliche thing.
Quote from: jeff37923IIRC, there are a Hell of a lot spells that use the Etheral Plane in them. I wonder how they will modify the spells after they get rid of the plane.
Depends on the spell effect. The ones for contacting outer planes can just be attuned to the Astral, while the ones for contacting inner planes can tap into the Elemental Tempest (or whatever they end up calling it). On the other hand, the ones which just let you step just outside our dimension, move around, and step back in again could plonk you in somewhere like the Feywilde.
Quote from: XantherMaybe there is some beneift to banding together, a non-linear effect on the power of the area you control that protects you. This maybe why the demons are all in one place; purely out of a sense of self preservation even though they hate being crowded and near each other.
I think part of the deal with demons in the new cosmology is that they're products of the Abyss, and that the Abyss itself is a gnawing cancer in the heart of the Elemental Tempest. It's not that the demons don't want to leave the Abyss, it's just that they're so innately destructive that wherever they end up going sooner or later ends up being dragged down into the Abyss if they're not stopped.
Quote from: SettembriniActually it feels not grandiose, but waaaay smaller. Dunno why, just comes of rather smallish in scope.
I suspect it's because we only know about 4 planes at the moment. Which, you know, is 4 infinities, but to our monkey minds 4 infinities seems way less than dozens of infinities...
Quote from: jgantsPersonally, I'm sick to death of the "mirror world" cliche thing.
Maybe, but there's a real fuckload of myth and fantasy fiction that depends on it; it's pretty much
the way that most modern fantasy authors discuss "fairyland" these days. I think it's a good sign that 2007's D&D is throwing current fantasy fiction into the mix, just as OD&D and 1E AD&D took into account fantasy from the 1970s and earlier.
Quote from: Christmas ApeNo?Seems relatively clear to me. They got all smashed together into a chaotic plane the size of the Astral, with the seething wound of the Abyss smack dab in the middle.
Maybe, or maybe that means distinct elemental planes with all manner of quasi-elemental planes between... It could be that planar travel is finally a form of dimensional movement, and that the chaos thus viewed exists in that dimension of flow. Dunno. I'd favour distinct elemental planes, to be honest.
Quote from: CabMaybe, or maybe that means distinct elemental planes with all manner of quasi-elemental planes between... It could be that planar travel is finally a form of dimensional movement, and that the chaos thus viewed exists in that dimension of flow. Dunno. I'd favour distinct elemental planes, to be honest.
I'm not certain what in it leads you to that reading, but I certainly respect your tastes. If I hadn't already done something similar in the homebrew that got dropped when 4e got announced I'd probably be fairly torn myself.
I like this better than the older D&D Cosmology vaguely similar to what I came up with my own Majestic Wilderlands campaign.
I am heavily influenced by the Ars Magica concept of Regiones. A first glance it looks somewhat different but in practice essentially the same idea as the new cosmology the idea of fae, elementals, etc.
http://www.atlas-games.com/arsmagica/armerrata.php
QuoteRegiones
Occasionally, within very special supernatural areas, special types of auras arise. These may exist within larger domains or by themselves, and may be of any type of aura. They are called regiones (singular regio, "realm"). Unlike other auras, regiones form self-contained worlds unique to the realm that they are aligned with.
Regiones have aura ratings from 1 to 10, which affect supernatural powers just like other aura ratings. The only concrete mechanical difference is that vis use in regiones other than magical is dangerous--double the botch dice in such environments.
Regiones consist of several levels of aura, layered one on top of another in order of increasing power; the lowest level is connected to the mundane world. To picture this phenomenon, imagine the contour lines of a hill on a map. Each line, from the bottom to the top, is like an aura rating within the regio. The mundane world is like the flat land surrounding the hill. And, just as contour lines encompass smaller areas towards the top, so levels of higher aura rating tend to occupy less space than those beneath.
The aura levels of a regio occupy space, much as contour lines represent height on a map. In reality, a hill occupies three dimensions, but the map compresses it into a flat image. Likewise, each level of a regio is a different supernatural dimension, but all coexist in the same mundane location. The illustration demonstrates this pictorially.
There's nothing to distinguish regiones from other auras, until one realizes that varying levels of reality exist on the same spot. A regio level that is more attuned to its realm has a higher aura rating, and so looks different from the rest. Lower levels appear only slightly changed from the mundane world, while higher levels tend to acquire many of the characteristics of their native realms.
Regiones have inhabitants, just like other areas of supernatural aura. These beings tend to cluster on specific levels, though they can cross level boundaries freely. The higher one travels in the regio, the stranger and more supernaturally aligned its inhabitants become.
Entering and Leaving Regiones
When physically crossing the boundary of a regio, travelers disappear from the ordinary world and enter supernatural realms. There are three methods of entering regiones: being lead, voluntarily entering, and getting lost.
Any being directly connected to the realm associated with a regio can automatically lead up to a dozen mortals or magi into that regio. Faeries can lead mortals into faerie regiones, angels and people with True Faith can lead people into divine regiones, demons and people who have sold their souls can lead people into infernal regiones, and magical beasts can lead mortals into magic regiones.
Voluntarily entering regiones involves seeing the next level of the regio and then entering it. Once a level has been seen it may automatically be entered. Only characters with some sort of special perception may see into regiones. Second Sight and Magic Sensitivity both allow characters to see into magic regiones. Sense Holiness & Unholiness allows characters to see into both divine and infernal regiones. Faerie Sight (a +1 Virtue described in the Faeries supplement) allows characters to see into faerie regiones. To see a level, roll a stress die + Perception + the appropriate talent against an ease factor of 5 + (2 x the difference between the level you are on and the level you are trying to see). For example, the ease factor for trying to see from a level 4 regio into a level 1 (or vice versa) would be 5 + (2 x 3) = 11. Modifiers for local conditions or for specific dates and holidays can change the ease factor by as much as +/- 10. Carrying an object associated with the realm can subtract up to five from the ease factor.
Magi can cast level 20 InVi spells to see into regiones. A different spell must be learned for each of the four types of regiones. Many alchemists and herbalists know how to make salves and potions which allow users to temporarily see into regiones. Anyone who can enter a regio can also take along up to a dozen others with them.
Beings who become lost near a regio boundary may roll to see if they enter (or leave) accidentally, even if they cannot normally see in. The ease factor is the same, but only Perception is added to the stress roll.
Quote from: SettembriniActually it feels not grandiose, but waaaay smaller. Dunno why, just comes of rather smallish in scope.
Quote from: jgantsPersonally, I'm sick to death of the "mirror world" cliche thing.
I agree with those two statements. I think it's not just small in scope but also thematically. It could be part of a move away from High Fantasy toward Sword & Sorcery, and I'm not sure they meet well in the middle.
For the uninformed (like me) can someone please post a link to where they're getting all this info? Much appreciated.
Pete
PS - A lot of it sounds very similar to the Dreamwalker cosmology that I wrote years ago and am preparing to re-release for d20 Modern. I'd like to say they ripped me off and file a lawsuit, but considering I pretty much ripped off ideas from fiction, folklore, and other games to create the Dreamwalker cosmology, I don't think I'd have much of a case. :)
Quote from: pspahnFor the uninformed (like me) can someone please post a link to where they're getting all this info? Much appreciated.
This (http://www.enworld.org/forumdisplay.php?f=319) is my best suggestion.
:D This does, indeedy-do, sound cool.
Quote from: Christmas ApeThis (http://www.enworld.org/forumdisplay.php?f=319) is my best suggestion.
Whoah, that's a lot to digest. Thanks!
Pete
sounds really cool. wonder where most of the info will end up? DMG, probably?
now i'll have to look over both books when they come out (PH & DMG). . . (still waffling on purchasing at this early hour)
I will wait to pass judgement until in hand. But I will say it is one of the few things I've seen from 4e discussions that didn't immediately make me say WTF? I could see where/how it could evolve during development and it retains some potential.
How many people, do you think, will devolve the new "cosmology" back to 3rd edition rules? That would be an interesting task for the d20Haven (http://www.d20haven.com/forums) folks to consider...hmm....
I think it will be trivially easy to use the 3E-and-prior cosmology in 4E, just as it's trivially easy to use alternate cosmologies in 3E right now. It's setting bumph, and has only the most tenuous connections to the system.
All this is sounding unspeakably cool to me- Elemental Chaos might be a bit of a stretch, but I like the idea of Faerie-Land being an actual place that you might accidentally find yourself in, say, by stepping into a ring of mushrooms and such. Part and parcel of being a party's druid might be to keep up alliances and pacts with the locals in Feywild.
The Shadowfell also works very well for me- Yes it's a little cliche' but I like the idea that the party might run into a situation where the only way out would be to slide over into the Land of the Dead, even though they might go from the frying pan into the fire in the process.
I'm keeping the Etherial and Astral planes, though... The Etherial plane has always been the source of the truly wierd for me, and will always be irrevocably tied into mages and magic. The Astral plane similarly is the source of psionics, which exist side by side with magic in my D&D world. Neither directly affects the other, but the effects of both can be clearly felt by either party.
I saw the feywild and shadowfell and the first thing that popped into my head was Ars Magica, closely followed by the sort of thing presented in some Pendragon scenarios. Hopefully, they'll have some cool, unique features though!
Really depends whether these realms can be 'slipped' into or are actual planes that require some travel to reach.
Yeah, VERY Ars Magica.
Quote from: One Horse TownI saw the feywild and shadowfell and the first thing that popped into my head was Ars Magica, closely followed by the sort of thing presented in some Pendragon scenarios. Hopefully, they'll have some cool, unique features though!
Really depends whether these realms can be 'slipped' into or are actual planes that require some travel to reach.
Whatever the text offers, I fully intend to have them 'slip'-able.
I must admit that i've always been a fan of the great wheel. Always struck me as a new horizon to explore once you reached a certain power level. If you wanted it to, it was almost like starting a new game. Manual of the Planes was one of my fav 3e books. Not a great deal of info, but enough to get the creative juices flowing and not a great deal (in the Manual anyhow) of metaplot. "Here's a bunch of planes, here's some info about the plane and some gribblies that live there, over to you." Keep that with the new cosmology and all is hopefully groovy.
I suppose it'd be nigh-trivial to keep the Great Wheel with the new cosmology - just have it be the most stable and carefully mapped-out region of the Astral Sea. (The Abyss might be problematic, but you could say that although the Abyss originated in the Elemental Storm, it's managed to eat through into the Astral Sea, perhaps destroying the plane that formerly held its place in the Wheel.) Similarly, the established elemental planes (and the ethereal) could simply be the most stable and tied-down portions of the Elemental Storm.