So, for those who have more time on their hands to actually go looking for information on the subject: any idea if Character Creation is going to be any simpler and faster with D&D 4 than it was with D&D 3?
Will they actually wise up with this? If so, how?  I mean, I can't see it really being possible without cutting down on the two things that make D&D3 unbearably long for character creation as far as its potential for any mainstream appeal is concerned: way too much open choice of skill points and feats.

Now, what about Miniatures? Are they going to be obligatory for the system? Is that what we're at now? Or will they still only be semi-obligatory the way they are in 3.5? (I don't even dare to dream that we might be back at the good old days when they were purely optional).

RPGPundit

Minis are 3.5 default, if the game is streamlined in the direction of SAGA some say that is less reliant on minis, but they'll still be specified as default.

I suspect they're moving to SAGA-style skills as well, which would cut down on open feat assignment. This will really speed up making high level characters and somewhat speed up low level ones.

That's a vague guess but it fits what they're saying in their press releases etc.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo, for those who have more time on their hands to actually go looking for information on the subject: any idea if Character Creation is going to be any simpler and faster with D&D 4 than it was with D&D 3?
Will they actually wise up with this? If so, how?  I mean, I can't see it really being possible without cutting down on the two things that make D&D3 unbearably long for character creation as far as its potential for any mainstream appeal is concerned: way too much open choice of skill points and feats.

I really, really hope so.  Specifically, I hope that the quicker character generation is a function of fundamental system changes rather than just a function of just having fewer books to look at when it's released.

I started a 9th-level game not too long ago, and I was flabbergasted at how long character generation took.  Of course, much of that was my own damn fault for allowing a kitchen-sink-style game, but I still think we would have had some time issues.  Race, class, feat, and spell selections take some time.  Magic item selection takes even more time.  If they can streamline (1) magic items, (2) buffs, and (3) skills, it will be a fundamental system improvement I can get behind.

QuoteNow, what about Miniatures? Are they going to be obligatory for the system? Is that what we're at now? Or will they still only be semi-obligatory the way they are in 3.5? (I don't even dare to dream that we might be back at the good old days when they were purely optional).

RPGPundit

From what I can see, they will still expect minis to be a major source of income and a major gateway into the game as a whole.  I really doubt they will be more obligatory than they were in 3.5, especially if they simplify combat.

-O

My prediction:

They will claim, "character creation is much simpler and faster!"

They will mean, "character creation speed is much faster now because we've provided online tools to do all the heavy lifting for you.  If you don't use the online tools, it might be a bit quicker but whatever, that's not the point... look over there, new and shiny!"

As to minis...  D&D 3.5 is an RPG grafted onto a skirmish game (or vice versa, depending on your point of view).  This makes economic sense because selling minis, not books, is where the steady stream of $$$ comes from.  Therfore they will indeed be officially mandated; it would be stupid (from a corporate perspective) for them not to be.  (Not that I agree with this stance, you understand.)

Don't get me wrong, I really like what I've heard so far about the game.  It won't be Savage Worlds (nor C&C, nor Microlite20, nor Risus, etc...) in terms of speed and simplicity, but then again not many games approach D&D in terms of gaming depth and scope of character options.

Quote from: architect.zeroThey will mean, "character creation speed is much faster now because we've provided online tools to do all the heavy lifting for you.  If you don't use the online tools, it might be a bit quicker but whatever, that's not the point... look over there, new and shiny!"

Well, it will be simpler for two reasons. One is the actual rules. I think they'll head towards some of the simplifications Star Wars Saga Edition made. And from experience I can tell that those really help.
The much bigger one is that at initial release, the mass of options will be significantly smaller. This will get worse with further releases. Creating a 3.5 character from the core books is easy-peasy.

Quote from: SosthenesWell, it will be simpler for two reasons. One is the actual rules. I think they'll head towards some of the simplifications Star Wars Saga Edition made. And from experience I can tell that those really help.
The much bigger one is that at initial release, the mass of options will be significantly smaller. This will get worse with further releases. Creating a 3.5 character from the core books is easy-peasy.

I'm just not optimistic that they're going to go as far as SWSE in this regard.  They'll incorporate some things (I'm not sure which), but not all things.  I don't think that they can AND still have a DnD that the powergamers (prime audience #1) know and love.  Of course, I could be wrong.

Definitely. I think we might get a product that has about as much to do with SWSE as D&D 3 had to do with the first and second editons of Star Wars D20. I also think, that they're keeping something in the back of their hand that would've been neat enough for SWSE, but which they won't introduce until 4E hits the floors.

The biggest mystery for me will be the magic system. Combat and character building simplifications are rather easy to do. But Vancian magic is a tough holy cow to slaughter...

Quote from: architect.zeroAs to minis...  D&D 3.5 is an RPG grafted onto a skirmish game (or vice versa, depending on your point of view).  This makes economic sense because selling minis, not books, is where the steady stream of $$$ comes from.  Therfore they will indeed be officially mandated; it would be stupid (from a corporate perspective) for them not to be.  (Not that I agree with this stance, you understand.)

I don't know how, though.  3.5 is fairly mini-centric, but people still manage to put the mat away for it.  I don't see any more hurdles than before, and really don't see how you can mandate specific minis for tabletop roleplaying.

Quote from: SosthenesThe biggest mystery for me will be the magic system. Combat and character building simplifications are rather easy to do. But Vancian magic is a tough holy cow to slaughter...

I'm expecting a major shift in the way spellcasting will work.

My prediction is that spellcasters will get a mix of per-encounter abilities (or else at-will abilities) and big whammies which will either be limited per day, or per level via something like the Force Points mechanic in Saga.  I also expect something will be done to address the crazy reference time needed for complex spells.

-O

Quote from: obrynI don't know how, though.  3.5 is fairly mini-centric, but people still manage to put the mat away for it.  I don't see any more hurdles than before, and really don't see how you can mandate specific minis for tabletop roleplaying.

Oh I don't think that they're going to mandate specific minis for the game - it's not going to be like Warhammer where you need x,y, an z minis otherwise it isn't an "official" game.  No, they're just going to promote the heck out of using minis, you know, for "ease of play" or some such.

And by minis, I mean counters.  And WoTC just happens to be the supplier of some very nice, and relatively inexpensive counters... that just happen to exactly match the various illustrations in all of their games.  Who would've thought of that!

Make rules that strongly encourage the use of "counters".  Supply the "official" counters at a reasonable price, promote the hell out of them, and voila!  A steady stream of income because if geeks do one thing very well it's collect shit.

Exactly!  You don't sell what you don't want buyers to use, and you don't push that sale hard if you don't want it used a lot.