32 pages for 10 dollars?  sounds kinda high...with the exception of ad pages, that's very close to a $3.00 comic book.  (assuming that means 16 pages, front and back, and not 32 pages...)

of course, i won't be buying them, but for those who will, enjoy i guess. :idunno:

Chiming in on my appreciation for the phrase, "cavalcade of morons."  I must use that someday.

Quote from: kregmosier;29937332 pages for 10 dollars?  sounds kinda high...with the exception of ad pages, that's very close to a $3.00 comic book.  (assuming that means 16 pages, front and back, and not 32 pages...)

of course, i won't be buying them, but for those who will, enjoy i guess. :idunno:

Compared to a comic book, you're right. That is kinda high. However, as the cover price for a comparable RPG adventure module, it is a little low. RPG book pricing is its own unique realm.

Small supplements isn't a terribly bad idea, but you have to price them low enough to back that up. My fear (and in truth, it has already begun) is that WotC is going to do what Gabriel2 mentioned and intentionally leave swaths of material out, so that they can squeeze more purchases out of their customers.

Honestly, I've always found it a bit mind-boggling that D&D gets away with having 3 core books at all. Few games have more than 1, and the DMG material consists of things that could have replaced padding in the other two books anyways. So at this point, the sheer number of books 4E is having customers buy seems ridiculous.

Quote from: The Worid;299377Small supplements isn't a terribly bad idea, but you have to price them low enough to back that up. My fear (and in truth, it has already begun) is that WotC is going to do what Gabriel2 mentioned and intentionally leave swaths of material out, so that they can squeeze more purchases out of their customers.

Honestly, I've always found it a bit mind-boggling that D&D gets away with having 3 core books at all. Few games have more than 1, and the DMG material consists of things that could have replaced padding in the other two books anyways. So at this point, the sheer number of books 4E is having customers buy seems ridiculous.

4E actually makes 0 books mandatory, at least up to 3rd level. You can just download the character builder.

Afterwards, actual players will often buy a PHB (all they really need).

DMs really do need a monster book and a DMs guide in order to write adventures, but not to run them. Players have all the info needed to play on the character sheet.. They don't even have to look up spells anymore.

Splats, in general, don't do much for me. At my group's gaming site, we have a 5-foot long shelf groaning under the weight of scores of 3.0/3.5 sourcebooks, with probably a million words or so of stuff in them. The reason why the new campaign I just started is limited strictly to the three 3.0 core books is because it always a) takes away valuable gaming time rooting through books to find stuff b) leads to seemingly crazy requests for items or skills that the DM (me) hadn't ever heard of because he didn't buy and/or read the book c) leads to hard feelings when I arbitrarily refuse something from said books because it dosn't fit in my world-view or is too munchkin (but its in the books!) and d) limits creativity in the sense of "Why make it up when something similar is already in book ____?"

Honestly, the three core books of ANY verison of D&D prior to 4e were always sufficient to me (not saying others aren't fun or useful, just not necessary - I'm particularly a fan of things like "Pocket Grimoire" and the like that bring in spells and items from dozens of sources into one book) - I suspect 4e will be the same.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;2993804E actually makes 0 books mandatory, at least up to 3rd level. You can just download the character builder.

Afterwards, actual players will often buy a PHB (all they really need).

DMs really do need a monster book and a DMs guide in order to write adventures, but not to run them. Players have all the info needed to play on the character sheet.. They don't even have to look up spells anymore.

Does the character builder contain rules for combat and general adventuring? No? Then the PHB is necessary.

You yourself said that the DM needs the Monster Manual and the DMG, so both of those are necessary, too.

So we're up to 3 books, as normal for every edition. My criticism of 3 core books applies to every edition of AD&D, not just 4E. My 4E-specific criticism concerns things like PHBII (which seems excessive) and the incredibly narrow focus of splatbooks.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;299329If you are not really involved with playing the game your opinion can't possibly matter.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;299344And I just realized I am trying to reason with a calvacade of morons.

You know what I like about VBulletin?

Ignore lists.

Buh-bye.

First up, you don't get an annoying person to shut up by responding to them. If you don't want the monkey to fling poo, don't poke him with your stick.

Next, and on the actual topic of the thread: Splatbooks are important, because they introduce new rules not entirely consistent with the corebooks. Once you've got a couple of dozen splatbooks, it becomes impossible for the writer of the next one to ensure it doesn't contradict anything in the corebooks or other splatbooks. So you end up with a large spaghetti mess of rules.

This spaghetti mess of rules allow lovers of the previous edition to say, "told you so!" and lovers of the present edition to say, "but it's not a mess with a good GM, it just gives us lots of options..."

By this time the game company which produced the edition has gone through five or so years of change, maybe even change of ownership, and has new members, people who want to make their mark on the game and not be in the shadow of the previous guys.

This mess and the arguments and change of game company members then creates the need and desire for the next edition of the game, the one that'll streamline and tidy up the mess, and bring in some innovations, too!

Thus, splatbooks are important in preparing the way for the next edition of the game.

Our consumer economy depends on obsolescence, on people throwing away the old and getting the new. There are two kinds of obsolescence - actual, where it breaks down or falls apart, and perceived, which is fashion.

Unless you print and bind them badly roleplaying games can't have actual obsolescence, in principle they can be played again a hundred years from now - probably not in a thousand, since cultures change and the game setting at least wouldn't make sense.

So that leaves the companies with perceived obsolescence, and for this the splatbooks are essential. Firstly, they create the perception that the corebooks are an incomplete game; incompleteness is a kind of perceived obsolescence, as anyone who's had to download a security patch for Windows knows. "This doesn't do the job, I need to add to it." Secondly, as I said they create a mess in the rules, which leads to the next edition.

Splatbooks are very important in keeping game companies going without their having to go to the trouble of expanding their market.

Quote from: jeff37923;299370Moving away from AM's amazing technicolor butthurt...



This reasonably priced, relatively low page count splatbook may be just the right thing to deal with aspects of the Supplement Mill problem discussed in this thread. Two of the objections to the Supplement Mill approach is that splatbooks usually cost around $20-$25 and are about a hundred pages which ends up being both a larger buy-in and more prep work for the GM. At $9.99 and 32 pages, the buy-in isn't so bad and the lower page count of additional rules isn't that much more prep work for the GM. This type of splatbook can still become onerous, but only when a splatbook for each PC race is published.

Something to think about, anyways.

Wholly agree.  When you posted earlier that it was only 32pgs for $10, I immediately thought it was the perfect price point with the exact page count needed.  Assuming 30 of those pages aren't devoted to crappy fluff with 4in margins.  

The 2e Complete Handbooks were 128pgs(?) or so, and it ended up being too many.  Most of those could have easily been trimmed to 64pgs or less (48 seems optimal), and it would have helped maintain the focus, too, instead of wandering all over the topic and ending up a mess as they did.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;299403Our consumer economy depends on obsolescence, on people throwing away the old and getting the new. There are two kinds of obsolescence - actual, where it breaks down or falls apart, and perceived, which is fashion.

Unless you print and bind them badly roleplaying games can't have actual obsolescence, in principle they can be played again a hundred years from now - probably not in a thousand, since cultures change and the game setting at least wouldn't make sense.

So that leaves the companies with perceived obsolescence, and for this the splatbooks are essential. Firstly, they create the perception that the corebooks are an incomplete game; incompleteness is a kind of perceived obsolescence, as anyone who's had to download a security patch for Windows knows. "This doesn't do the job, I need to add to it." Secondly, as I said they create a mess in the rules, which leads to the next edition.

That is remarkably insightful. Although I wouldn't call that the only reason splatbooks are printed (plain moneymaking is still in force here) I can see that as actually being done.

Ten bucks is the kind of price I can afford to spend even on the tightest paydays.

Quote from: The Worid;299377Honestly, I've always found it a bit mind-boggling that D&D gets away with having 3 core books at all.

It's tradition. Just changing the mechanics of the game cause apoplexy in fans - imagine what changing the core format would do. Heads would 'splode.

Seanchai

Most RPGs get away with two core books.  Then again I love good monster books so I usually scoop them up with any game that offers such an item and they are immediately core for me.

The DMG has been dead weight for a long time.  I do however appreciate the Monster Manual a lot and it's always the book with the most wear and tear for me.

Unless the splats introduces material that makes previously poor choices relevant or is comprised of simply new effective choices, it's a waste of money.