I have some burning questions for 5th edition gamers. Hopefully, you guys can answer them. It'll help me prepare for the Cha'alt kickstarter launching just before Thanksgiving...
1) Back in the day, when playing AD&D many gamers defaulted to the basic version of the game, similar to original D&D, rather than using all the extra mechanical bells and whistles contained within the AD&D rulebooks.
What I want to know is how many 5e gamers play their D&D in a simplified or old school / OSR way?
Specificly, would you consider full 5e stat-blocks to be essential in a 5e compatible product, or would providing the most important stuff be an option / acceptable?
2) Since official D&D 5e settings are few and far between, how much campaign setting material would you like to see in a published adventure?
3) How much guidance (or hand-holding, if you prefer) would be ideal, in your view? A sentence here and there about the designer's intention or what's going on in general? Paragraphs on setting things up before each chapter? Or pages about how to run scenarios with boxed text and sidebars containing GM advice throughout the book?
____
Thanks for taking the time to answer this questionnaire! Keep an eye on this blog for mentions of the upcoming Cha'alt news.
VS
Keeping in mind that I'm probably not your target audience:
1. I'd consider full stat blocks a waste of space, and a pain to scan. I would prefer that whatever minimal stat block is used instead is consistent.
2. If a little of a setting is revealed through the nature of the adventure, that's great. More than that, I lose interest fast. My tastes on setting rarely align with anyone else (a big part of why I'm not the target audience).
Also, to the extent that a book is more "source book" than "adventure"--something I prefer in some cases--I want the book focused from that angle. You can get away with more revealed setting in such a book, because it is not necessarily a finished adventure, but rather a set of creatures with goals, interesting places, etc. It doesn't hurt in this case to include a few adventure-like cheat sheets to use the material in something akin to an adventure. That's close to the way I do my own notes. I think I'm a minority taste in this approach as well.
3. I rarely find such advice useful, as it presumes my goals are the same as the person who wrote the product. What can be helpful are design notes that briefly convey the designer's intentions for the material. Now that I know why it was built that way, I can more easily adapt it to what I'd rather do instead.
In fact, the combination of all three is the most useful to me, because given all that, what I'm going to do is read the adventure-like cheat sheets to glean more information about the designer's intent. Then I'll promptly toss them and make my own version using the same source material coupled with things of my own. I always was one to ignore the plans in the Lego kit and build my own things from the raw blocks.
Quote from: VengerSatanis;1063729I have some burning questions for 5th edition gamers. Hopefully, you guys can answer them. It'll help me prepare for the Cha'alt kickstarter launching just before Thanksgiving...
1) Back in the day, when playing AD&D many gamers defaulted to the basic version of the game, similar to original D&D, rather than using all the extra mechanical bells and whistles contained within the AD&D rulebooks.
What I want to know is how many 5e gamers play their D&D in a simplified or old school / OSR way?
Specificly, would you consider full 5e stat-blocks to be essential in a 5e compatible product, or would providing the most important stuff be an option / acceptable?
This question makes no sense to me. Neither 5e player sheets nor monster stat blocks have much in the way of non-essential parts. Like if you were to provide a "5e compatible" monster, but leave out its ability scores and type, it simply wouldn't be "5e compatible." Or if you provided a new "5e compatible class," but you didn't say what its skill list was, it wouldn't be "5e compatible." Better be specific with this one.
Quote2) Since official D&D 5e settings are few and far between, how much campaign setting material would you like to see in a published adventure?
Don't give me too many pages of boring crap I won't read. Give me the tables and tools to fill in the map. In terms of fluff, the 4e Eberron Campaign Guide had just about the right amount for me.
Quote3) How much guidance (or hand-holding, if you prefer) would be ideal, in your view? A sentence here and there about the designer's intention or what's going on in general? Paragraphs on setting things up before each chapter? Or pages about how to run scenarios with boxed text and sidebars containing GM advice throughout the book?
If this is a campaign setting, I think I would like a few keyed maps with a short intro to give some early hooks, plus the occasional boxed text or sidebar giving some ideas.
____
Thanks for taking the time to answer this questionnaire! Keep an eye on this blog for mentions of the upcoming
Cha'alt news.
VS[/QUOTE]
1. Abbreviated 5e stat blocks are definitely fine by me. I would prefer to see stat bonuses (as well as AC, HP, Attack bonus & damage) - eg STR 14 (+2) DEX 12 (+1) CON 13 (+1) INT 9 (-1) WIS 10 (+0) CHA 11 (+0) it's fine to leave out the number and just list the bonus.
2. Too much setting material makes it hard to plug into an ongoing campaign, but small scale setting stuff is nice. Liberation of the Demon Slayer with the background notes on Sweet Meadows hit the sweet spot for me, I found it easy to integrate into my campaign.
3. Guidance - hm, I prefer an OSR approach with lots of inspirational tools and tables to take or leave, rather than guidance that feels didactic and often constraining. 'Suggestions' on various different ways the product can be used are good, but I don't want scene by scene advice.
To me, the 1e Greyhawk box is just about damned near close to perfect. I would like it to have a bit more stuff...a few city maps, a few more campaign ideas keyed to specific zones, a few sentences describing each ruler, that sort of thing. But what I don't want is pages and pages and pages of prose that I will never read.
Quote from: VengerSatanis;10637291) Back in the day, when playing AD&D many gamers defaulted to the basic version of the game, similar to original D&D, rather than using all the extra mechanical bells and whistles contained within the AD&D rulebooks.
What I want to know is how many 5e gamers play their D&D in a simplified or old school / OSR way?
Specificly, would you consider full 5e stat-blocks to be essential in a 5e compatible product, or would providing the most important stuff be an option / acceptable?
2) Since official D&D 5e settings are few and far between, how much campaign setting material would you like to see in a published adventure?
3) How much guidance (or hand-holding, if you prefer) would be ideal, in your view? A sentence here and there about the designer's intention or what's going on in general? Paragraphs on setting things up before each chapter? Or pages about how to run scenarios with boxed text and sidebars containing GM advice throughout the book?
1) I'm not sure what you mean by simplified stat blocks with only "the most important stuff". I think an example might be good.
2) If it's an adventure, the only setting should be what is directly around the adventure locations.
3) Personally, I'm unlikely to use boxed text. However, as a gamer, I prefer that material be written to encourage new GMs. One of the biggest hurdles to people getting into D&D is getting people to GM. So I prefer that it be easily usable by a new GM - which doesn't mean writing as if they're stupid, but as if they're inexperienced.
Quote from: VengerSatanis;1063729Specificly, would you consider full 5e stat-blocks to be essential in a 5e compatible product, or would providing the most important stuff be an option / acceptable?
Honestly? As long as the main statistics are there (HP, AC, S/D/C/I/W/C, attacks) I am more interested in Habitat/Ecology/Organization, 2nd edition-style. I feel like the 5E stat blocks are extremely combat-focused and often 5E monsters are quite uninteresting as a result. When I see a 5E product with AD&D-style stat blocks, like FrogGod's Fifth Edition Foes, I buy it almost automatically.
Quote2) Since official D&D 5e settings are few and far between, how much campaign setting material would you like to see in a published adventure?
Not that much unless it is really creative and inspiring. I'm more interested in things that are hard to invent, which means I'm usually more interested in things that directly impact the game rather than irrelevant backstory about offscreen NPCs. Courtney Campbell has a great post on this: http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2018/05/on-gygax-design-ii.html
Useless info:
QuoteEach home in the sequel has details of their occupants, no statistics, just a story about what type of person they are.
"A quiet man who keeps mostly to himself, Reece. . . has since married a local woman (Asgrim, a young widow whose first husband marched off to the battlefield while they were still newlyweds, never to return). They have a three year old son, Decius, and a year-old daughter, Nadya."
I don't see how the above is accessible or useful to play. He's a cobbler. When will the players intersect with this information? Why is it detailed? 7f details three sisters who are milkmaids and their schedules throughout the day, but should I references 7f which I'm deciding who's in an area?
Each paragraph is giving me a little character story or vignette. . . and no tools to integrate it with what's actually going to be happening at the table. The presentation is convoluted ------ with zero effort given into what I'm supposed to do with that information.
It gets worse. The players can't buy anything at the smithy "Rafe can make horseshoes, nails, and bits with ease, but weaponsmithing and armor-forging are beyond him." followed by this useful gem that can in no way impact our game, "The keep once had a resident weaponsmith in Mascens day who kept the garrison supplied."
!?
Let's play a game. In what world where you have sat down with your friends to play Dungeons & Dragons is the following information useful?
"Beasley's daughter, Calista, divides chores and responsibilities with her husband."
"Most folks only stay here for a few days, but some stay for extended periods."
There's literally thousands of words detailing small family relationships, who's married to who, local town politics, organized only by building title:"Guild House" under which you find, Greeves and Peta who are the grandparents of Jess who is in the one-eyed cat.
Is the adventure about small town drama? If it is, why is it so poorly organized? How would I keep this web of stories and relationships straight without re-writing everything?
I recommend everything and anything that Courtney writes about adventure design. Justin Alexander's stuff is great too.
Quote3) How much guidance (or hand-holding, if you prefer) would be ideal, in your view? A sentence here and there about the designer's intention or what's going on in general? Paragraphs on setting things up before each chapter? Or pages about how to run scenarios with boxed text and sidebars containing GM advice throughout the book?
It's not really about how much text--it's about organization, how easy it is to consume. I'd prefer to be able to glance at a page and know immediately what interesting things I need to tell players about immediately, and where to look if they ask follow-up questions. An NPC with three descriptive words and bolded text for any affordances, clues or nodal links to other parts of the story is great.
Angry fat wheezy merchant:
When asked about
dragons - he saw one yesterday circling Adenville.
His
cart smells of
gunpowder and he is very uncomfortable when people stand close to it.
Secretly
smuggling gunpowder kegs into the castle on behalf of the
mind flayers, although he does not know they are illithids. if players find the gunpowder and threaten to turn him in to the authorities, he will admit this and blame
Travis in 5A, who is his point of contact with his employers.
RE: Stat Blocks
Name, Typical Setting, HP, Primary Attack and Damage, Secondary Attack and Damage, Immunities, Resistances, Special Stuff?
Quote from: Hemlock;1063809...
Angry fat wheezy merchant:
When asked about dragons - he saw one yesterday circling Adenville.
His cart smells of gunpowder and he is very uncomfortable when people stand close to it.
Secretly smuggling gunpowder kegs into the castle on behalf of the mind flayers, although he does not know they are illithids. if players find the gunpowder and threaten to turn him in to the authorities, he will admit this and blame Travis in 5A, who is his point of contact with his employers.
This is brilliant btw. Super helpful.
To Venger:
1) I played with all the options in AD&D. That's why I loved it. Spells & Powers! We ate that shit up. :-P However, most of the groups I have seeded and left are still playing 5e with only options from the official books. Seems like less people I see playing 5e are hoarding splats and fusing them into the game. However, that is just my observations of the groups I have played with. If you want to appeal to the 5e crowd, I would recommend stat blocks that look similar with similar info as official product or prepare to be overlooked as an "inferior" product.
2) Enough info that players can make meaningful choices, wander in a few directions, and not tax me by having to create a bunch of shit whole cloth to keep up with them. There should be enough going on with plots, guilds, houses, secret orders, fell monsters and what not to tantalize the players into dealing with something. I can get a boring medieval town anywhere. Give me creative exciting shit that will push my players buttons.
3) Newer GMs appreciate advice, some plot connections and hints about "what might happen". I would prefer you slowly back away and pull your weeny out of my pucker-hole AKA I really could use more cool shit, plots, NPCs (who are actually up to something), random events, etc. because I'm just going to toss all the newb-sauce out of the pot anyways. Know your audience!
Quote from: VengerSatanis;1063729I have some burning questions for 5th edition gamers. Hopefully, you guys can answer them. It'll help me prepare for the Cha'alt kickstarter launching just before Thanksgiving...
1) Back in the day, when playing AD&D many gamers defaulted to the basic version of the game, similar to original D&D, rather than using all the extra mechanical bells and whistles contained within the AD&D rulebooks.
This really doesn't make much sense, because the basic version of the game was completely different than AD&D. It also came out later. (Unless you mean Holmes, which was sort of in between OD&D and AD&D, but that also had some weird quirks that few people used)
Anyway, based on your past products, you have a lot of weird/good ideas, but little to no understanding of game mechanics, so I would say play to your strengths.
For my own use I make stat blocks like this:
Vuthrik, the Last Deathwalker, warrior of Lady Vex
Ftr-5 (Champion) PB +3 CR 2
AC 19 (15 half plate, +2 DEX +2 shield)
Init +2
HD 5 (d10) HP 34
ST16 (+3) DE 15 (+2) CO 10 (+0) IN 12 (+1) WI 6 (-2) CH 8 (-1)
E: Warspear or Sword, Lizardman spiked shield
Duelist +2 damage 1hw, Crit 19-20. Action Surge 1/SR. Second Wind d10+5 1/SR
2 attacks per attack action
War Spear or Sword, ATT +6 dam 1d8+5 x2
It's a bit bulky but easy to use.
You could cut it down to:
Vuthrik, the Last Deathwalker, warrior of Lady Vex.
PB +3 CR 2 AC 19 (half plate & shield) HD 5 (d10) HP 34; ST +3 DE +2 WI -2
SA: Duelist +2 damage 1hw, Crit 19-20. Action Surge 1/SR. Second Wind d10+5 1/SR; 2 attacks per attack action
War Spear or Sword, ATT +6 dam 1d8+5 x2
An Orc could be cut down to one line:
PB +2 CR 1/2 AC 13 HP 15 ST +3 CO +3 IN -2 WI -2 Spd 30'; Great Axe ATT +5/d12+3
Not all stat bonuses are listed; just the ones that give at least a +2 bonus or penalty. Everything else can be assumed to be +0.
BTW that stat line actually gives me more useful info than is in the MM since WoTC don't list the Proficiency Bonus (PB) for their monsters, you have to derive it from the CR. I think it would be a good approach for your style.
In published WoTC material they don't even bother listing anything, they just say Orc and refer you to the MM. I find this quite annoying, a 1 line abbreviated stat block would be a lot more useful.
BTW if you use the OGL you are free to use (copy/paste) the monsters & stat blocks in the 5e SRD - http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SRD-OGL_V5.1.pdf
Personally I think an abbreviated stat block format is better though.
Quote from: trechriron;1063839This is brilliant btw. Super helpful.
I didn't originate it, I stole it from Courtney Campbell. His examples are better and more-thought-out than mine. See http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2012/06/on-set-design.html.
Quote from: S'mon;1063845An Orc could be cut down to one line:
PB +2 CR 1/2 AC 13 HP 15 ST +3 CO +3 IN -2 WI -2 Spd 30'; Great Axe ATT +5/d12+3
Not all stat bonuses are listed; just the ones that give at least a +2 bonus or penalty. Everything else can be assumed to be +0.
BTW that stat line actually gives me more useful info than is in the MM since WoTC don't list the Proficiency Bonus (PB) for their monsters, you have to derive it from the CR. I think it would be a good approach for your style.
Yes, this! Short, inline stat blocks are a great use of space.
I agree with those who said that question 1 isn't entirely meaningful for 5e. While 5e is closer in spirit to TSR D&D than anything else WotC have done, it doesn't return to the modular nature of (especially) AD&D1e, where there are entire subsystems that you can take or leave and the game remains playable (even though it plays differently).
Thanks for the feedback, everyone! That's good info. Nothing is set in stone at this point, so I'll collect all the data and consider the possibilities before launching the KS in a couple weeks.
VS
Quote from: VengerSatanis;1063729I have some burning questions for 5th edition gamers. Hopefully, you guys can answer them. It'll help me prepare for the Cha'alt kickstarter launching just before Thanksgiving...
1) Back in the day, when playing AD&D many gamers defaulted to the basic version of the game, similar to original D&D, rather than using all the extra mechanical bells and whistles contained within the AD&D rulebooks.
Quote from: JeremyR;1063841This really doesn't make much sense, because the basic version of the game was completely different than AD&D. It also came out later. (Unless you mean Holmes, which was sort of in between OD&D and AD&D, but that also had some weird quirks that few people used)
I played in two 0e campaigns that only sort of transitioned to AD&D 1e, as the OP says, either continuing the 0e rules or the house rules that covered things unspecified in 0e. I read "basic version of the game" as the common parts of 0e and AD&D 1e, not as the start of TSR's parallel D&D (non-A, or maybe Null-A) branch.
The basic box set, and the basic PDF, are often used as an introduction to the 5e game.