As the title sez--what's your favorite 3.5 D&D build, class, race, etc. Explain why if you want, even include your least favorites. Let's talk some D&D. :cool:
My new favorite class is the Warblade from Book of 9 Swords. You get a badass fighter with tasty maneuver-based crunch.
My flavor-of-the-month fave race is the Warforged from Eberron. Because playing a robot in D&D is super awesome. No real mechanical reason.
My favorite class seems to be Wizard. There's a few reasons - for one, I've got the sort of detail-obcessed mind that likes to pour over lists of possible spells, thinking up which combination of spells and feats will work for the next day of gaming. For two, wizards are high on the customizable scale - since they don't get that many 'per level' benefits (other than spells) they can slide into any of a number of prestige classes without losing much. So, I can run a Wizard/Conjurer through the Loremaster and Archmage prestige classes and be completely different than my Monk/Wizard mix.
For race, I usually go with Human, 90% of the time. The extra starting feat, extra skill points, and ability to mix around with other classes without penalty is just too much fun. My second favorite is Halfling - the mixture between the benefits of small size and dex bump make them just about the hardest thing to hit on the battlefield, all else being equal.
Not having access to all the newer books, I would say
Warmage
Warforged
These two cover my munchkin side.
Otherwise I like the Knight and Fighter classes.
I've been considering trying the knight. Especially since our DM keeps sending his monsters past my meat shield to pick on the team wizard.
If there's a big enough group, five or more, I like to play Bards. Yeah that's right, I said it: Bards! I'm not an optimizer so I don't have any build-specific reasons why; I enjoy being a team player, and there are fewer better team players than Bards.
If there's fewer players, I'll play a Fighter -- usually a heavy armor, crit-monkey type. I would like to try the Knight one of these days.
My favorite character "in theory" would be the Rogue. Since Mentzer's Red Box Basic, I've always liked the idea behind them, and I've played them a number of times, but I never really felt I played the character *well*. I never got to skulk and thieve and unlock and detrap things sufficiently; I was just kind of that flanking-guy.
I generally go Human. That extra feat is usually too nice to pass up.
I like Clerics. Clerics kick all kinds of all-mighty ass.
You get decent melee ability, if not the full BAB of a Fighter, full plate, heals, some pretty damn nice damage spells at the high levels, a host of utility spells, the fun of customizing your domains, the ability to fuck with undead something harsh, and they make the best necromancers hands down if you go negative energy.
Absolutely love them. You get a piece of everything, and are actually half-decent at all of it, instead of sucking it up. It's the best hybrid class there is.
Next down the list would probably have to be Rogues, just for the "stab them in the arse for massive damage" factor.
Race-wise, I just plain like humans. Bonus feat + bonus skill points is just too sweet a perk to pass up. Mechanically I think they're the best race there is.
I like elves though too, especially when playing a rogue.
I like half-orcs in terms of character concept, but the mechanics leave a lot to be desired. Last time I played an orc-type character I wound up just using the Orc race from the WOW tabletop game.
Human wizard, because I like skill points and feats, and I know the arcane spell system well enough to fuck my DM's villains in the ass with it. I prefer wizards to sorcerors because I like using unusual spells to get marginal advantage, and I prefer playing specialists because I like the power boost specialisation gives you.
I like the power of clerics and druids, but I really hate codes of conduct and buff spells.
:D Just picked up Dungeonscape tonight and the Factotum looks pretty sweet.
Myself, I'm a fan of the Bard. I like the "utility infielder" role, and I usually like being a social butterfly. That said, I usually play my bards more as a skald, bravo, or fighting troubador than I do with a concentration in the arcane side of the while business.
My runner-up would be the Fighter, who I like to run with a high INT/CHA when possible. I also like the Marshal and Knight.
Least favorite? I hate the Rogue in 3.5. Not a big fan of...well, I'm an old-school Thief fan, I guess. I also don't play Druids (though I think they're pretty cool) or Barbarians much at all.
Favorite Race: Human, with Gnome a distant 2nd. Human just gets too many bonuses and helps boost my options available. And I'm not a huge fan of a lot of the other races.
Least Favorite: Drow. Damn you, Salvatore. Damn you to the Nine Hells. I met Bob Salvatore briefly at a gaming convention, and he seemed like a very nice guy, but I hold him responsible for the population explosion of Chaotic Good emo Drow at gaming tables all over the world.
Elves (Other) aren't really high on my list, either.
QuoteLeast Favorite: Drow. Damn you, Salvatore. Damn you to the Nine Hells. I met Bob Slavatore briefly at a gaming convention, and he seemed like a very nice guy, but I hold him responsible for the population explosion of Chaotic Good emo Drow at gaming tables all over the world.
I've only ever made one drow. She was an evil, self-serving, murderous bitch.
The way Drow are supposed to be, damnit.
Hmm, I haven't played a whole lot of D&D, so I'm still a "I'd love to try everything at least once!" kind of player.
...I do have a habit of wanting to play rather esoteric characters though. Ones that get DMs pissed at me. I tried playing a lizardman gladiator (from the little gladiator class pamphlet from... mongoose? something like that) but I wasn't allowed because "then everyone would want to play a monster." :rolleyes:
I tried playing a hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures race) warlock once last year.
Recently I made a character called "Tainted One" that's a formian worker that displayed sorcerous talent and was thus exiled and became a barbarian. He's a lvl 1 Sorc / lvl 1 BbN and let me tell you... formian workers are BADASS barbarians. I know I'll never get to play him, but damn. Plus the dip into sorc gave him enlarge. :D I think he'd be fun in, say, a DarkSun style sword-and-sorcery setting.
Next I think I'd love to try a bard, dread necromancer (and go undead army happy!), or artificer (Eberron).
Quote from: J ArcaneI like half-orcs in terms of character concept, but the mechanics leave a lot to be desired. Last time I played an orc-type character I wound up just using the Orc race from the WOW tabletop game.
I miss the old rotten bastard assassin half-orcs. The new barbarian half-orcs are a little too noble savage-y for my tastes.
Elven Ranger, whose primary weapon is a long bow.
That reminds me: The Scout from Complete Adventurer. I just discovered it the other day and fell in love. It's like everything I ever wanted from the Ranger without all the cruft.
Quote from: RedFoxThat reminds me: The Scout from Complete Adventurer. I just discovered it the other day and fell in love. It's like everything I ever wanted from the Ranger without all the cruft.
The Scout is a great class. One of the best add-on classes, IMO. I've seen a few folks switch from a variant ranger to the scout, because that's what they really wanted in a class in the first place.
Quote from: jrientsI miss the old rotten bastard assassin half-orcs. The new barbarian half-orcs are a little too noble savage-y for my tastes.
I don't really go in for the barbarian angle. My taste for the half-breed races has more to do with the "outcast" angle. Not really being accepted by either of your family, and the consequences that can have on one's personality, both good and bad.
Obviously it has the potential to wander into "hard lone wolf" territory, but these days I'm getting better at tempering that temptation.
Can you create a Spell Thief (from AQ) with 3.5 ? (That was one of my favourites..)
Regards,
David R
Hmm. My favorite species is Tiefling for purely flavor reasons, or Human if Tieflings aren't allowed or appropriate for some reason.
Mechanically I usually build dwarves because they seem tough and too useful in the typical D&D game not to.
My favorite class is probably the Warlock. Though I do keep wishing for a Necromancer class that is suitably cool, not even the Dread Necro can deliver in 3.5.
I keep wanting to try the Marshal or the Knight classes or even better a combination of the two but I seldom find a game of D&D that would even allow something outside the first PHB without nerfing the hell out of it.
Quote from: RedFoxHmm, I haven't played a whole lot of D&D, so I'm still a "I'd love to try everything at least once!" kind of player.
...I do have a habit of wanting to play rather esoteric characters though. Ones that get DMs pissed at me. I tried playing a lizardman gladiator (from the little gladiator class pamphlet from... mongoose? something like that) but I wasn't allowed because "then everyone would want to play a monster." :rolleyes:
I tried playing a hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures race) warlock once last year.
I'm surprised you didn't mention your Vampire Illithid from my short lived Epic level conquest of Greyhawk campaign.
Quote from: RedFoxRecently I made a character called "Tainted One" that's a formian worker that displayed sorcerous talent and was thus exiled and became a barbarian. He's a lvl 1 Sorc / lvl 1 BbN and let me tell you... formian workers are BADASS barbarians. I know I'll never get to play him...*snip*
Well your unlikely to play him in my upcoming C&C Darksun one shot anyway, I already made pregens.
Quote from: RedFox*snip*...dread necromancer (and go undead army happy!), or artificer (Eberron).
I can only imagine the fun. Ah if only...
QuoteMy favorite class is probably the Warlock. Though I do keep wishing for a Necromancer class that is suitably cool, not even the Dread Necro can deliver in 3.5.
Have you seen the True Necromancer class in Libris Mortis?
They're one of the few classes I just can't bring myself to play becasue they just seem too powerful. I feel guilty even thinking about one.
Gelatinous Cube Paladin. Although the "Lay on Hands" bit kind of sucks. The warhorse didn't last very long either... Hmm. :raise:
Quote from: mrlostI keep wanting to try the Marshal or the Knight classes or even better a combination of the two but I seldom find a game of D&D that would even allow something outside the first PHB without nerfing the hell out of it.
Well you can play a Tiefling Marshal or Knight in my game if you want. I won't even nerf it.
Quote from: mrlostI'm surprised you didn't mention your Vampire Illithid from my short lived Epic level conquest of Greyhawk campaign.
Well we only really played one session of that. And he was a Vampire Illithid Psion and ended up being ECL 30-something, if I recall. o.o;
I mean, when you can take out a githyanki fortress fleet with two PCs and a handful of hippos...
Quote from: mrlostWell your unlikely to play him in my upcoming C&C Darksun one shot anyway, I already made pregens.
Yeah, like I said, I'll never get to play him. *sigh*
.
Quote from: J ArcaneHave you seen the True Necromancer class in Libris Mortis?
They're one of the few classes I just can't bring myself to play becasue they just seem too powerful. I feel guilty even thinking about one.
Yep, but since its a Cleric + Wizard prestige class I don't count it since its not a core class. Barring the occassion one shot its not something I'll ever even get a chance to play where as a warlock is fun even at 1st level so I can be sure to have some fun. Anyway, the Dread Necromancer from what little I got to play of the class seemed like an improvement on the True Necromancer for instance you could play a 1st level Dread Necro which is simply impossible with the True Necro and both are far better than a Specialty Wizard Necro.
Although that variant familiar from Unearthed Arcana, the Skeletal Minion is pretty fun looking.
Quote from: RedFoxWell we only really played one session of that. And he was a Vampire Illithid Psion and ended up being ECL 30-something, if I recall. o.o;
I mean, when you can take out a githyanki fortress fleet with two PCs and a handful of hippos...
Really, I thought I ran two sessions. Then Meltingman decided that he didn't want to play because he was too powerful, this from the guy that was begging to play an Epic level game.
And the Giff aren't anything to laugh at, at least compared to the rest of Spelljammer.
Anyway, you only got to use your Hengeyokai Warlock in one session before the GM started trying to force us to play basic classes instead of a Dread Necromancer and a Warlock. Unless Everlucky ran some more of that strange brew.
Quote from: mrlostYep, but since its a Cleric + Wizard prestige class I don't count it since its not a core class. Barring the occassion one shot its not something I'll ever even get a chance to play where as a warlock is fun even at 1st level so I can be sure to have some fun. Anyway, the Dread Necromancer from what little I got to play of the class seemed like an improvement on the True Necromancer for instance you could play a 1st level Dread Necro which is simply impossible with the True Necro and both are far better than a Specialty Wizard Necro.
Although that variant familiar from Unearthed Arcana, the Skeletal Minion is pretty fun looking.
Ah. See I rarely if ever actually play D&D at 1st level. At earliest I usually go for 5 or 6, because I find that it's not until then that cahracters really come into their own.
I can't stand 1st level D&D of any variety. I think even in 3.0, they make 1st levels way too damn weak, especially arcane spellcasters.
Quote from: mrlostReally, I thought I ran two sessions. Then Meltingman decided that he didn't want to play because he was too powerful, this from the guy that was begging to play an Epic level game.
And the Giff aren't anything to laugh at, at least compared to the rest of Spelljammer.
They're imperialist brits as hippos. Yes, there's weirder in spelljammer. No, that doesn't mean I don't get to laugh at them. ;)
Quote from: mrlostAnyway, you only got to use your Hengeyokai Warlock in one session before the GM started trying to force us to play basic classes instead of a Dread Necromancer and a Warlock. Unless Everlucky ran some more of that strange brew.
No, he's been running Roma Imperius. Never went back to that game.
His wife's studying up to run D&D though. I gave her Robin's Laws to read, though you know how that goes when she borrows RPG books...
Quote from: J ArcaneAh. See I rarely if ever actually play D&D at 1st level. At earliest I usually go for 5 or 6, because I find that it's not until then that cahracters really come into their own.
I can't stand 1st level D&D of any variety. I think even in 3.0, they make 1st levels way too damn weak, especially arcane spellcasters.
Yeah, 1st isn't all that great unless you enjoy fighting rats & goblins and don't mind a lot of character re-rolls. At a bare minimum I start games at 2nd level (like the current one). At least they're a wee bit sturdier.
More detail than you want:
My favorite "unusual"race class combo is my favorite character I played this weekend: my female spellscale bard. The setting is Eberron (actually Stormreach, Xendrik Expeditions**).
Spellscales are like a draconic folk that are focused on the "artistic and magical" aspect of dragons rather than the tough, armor-claws-teeth "fanged monstery" aspect of something like a half-dragon.
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94122.jpg)
Theyre kind of fabulous. Hah.
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rodragon_gallery/94121.jpg)
Also, if you look at Races of the Dragon, they are implied as being more than a little gay all the way through. Not in the pejorative sense, either. I mean, actually gay. I mean, look at the guy!
So anyhow, I spent my starting feat on Dragon Wings, so she has these sweeping wings that wrap around her like a cloak. And she also has Force of Personality which lets her sub in her charisma score for will saves instead of wisdom. Buildwise, the wings provide a +10 bonus to jumps. (THey don't actually give her the ability to fly).
Flavorwise, I like to use them in stuff she does. ("Aethys flutters her wings with annoyance".. or "Aethys sweeps her wings out behind her as she turns and leaves". Just having that little 'bit' to do is quite fun.
This is a 4th level character, so other than those 2 feats, and standard bard stuff (she has perform flute and perform dance), her 2nd level spells are enthrall and invisibility. I usually describe her as using her wings as part of her perform: dance abilities. I'm headed towards either Shadow Dancer, or another Prestige class in Complete Scoundrel called 'Cloaked Dancer'. I'm probably going to take 'Cloak Dance' from the psionics book as my next feat (and use her wings as the "cloak").
Her real name is Aethys but when she's on stage in Stormreach, she performs under the name "Dragonsong". In the last expedition adventure, the rest of the party were all these hardened Blackwheel Company soldiers, and I really camped it up with her. So eventually she also ended up with the nickname "Princess", because she was entirely inappropriate and girly whenever possible. (I'm totally going to keep that nickname for her. It's actually quite fun to play the "dilletante" character that gets grossed out by vermin, and refuses to get her outfit dirty, and wouldn't even think about wading through a filthy swamp.)
**XE allows "just about anything" but tries to moderate it by only allowing you to "unlock" non standard stuff everytime you gain a level, or via campaign cards or whatever faction you play. This character spent her unlocks on the two feats: Dragon Wings and Force of Personality. The Spellscale reace was unlocked by being in the Crimson Codex faction.
Quote from: mrlostYep, but since its a Cleric + Wizard prestige class I don't count it since its not a core class. Barring the occassion one shot its not something I'll ever even get a chance to play where as a warlock is fun even at 1st level so I can be sure to have some fun. Anyway, the Dread Necromancer from what little I got to play of the class seemed like an improvement on the True Necromancer for instance you could play a 1st level Dread Necro which is simply impossible with the True Necro and both are far better than a Specialty Wizard Necro.
Although that variant familiar from Unearthed Arcana, the Skeletal Minion is pretty fun looking.
Both are actually inferior to a specialty necro. TNs don't get access to 9th level spells and they piss away caster levels. Necro spells tend to be save or dies, so you want access to higher levels of spells (and thus higher save DCs) ASAP. The ones that aren't tend to be CL-dependent, so sacrificing a minimum of three caster levels is a bum's game.
DNs have trouble with metamagic and a limited spell list, which cuts out the Uttercold Assault Necromancer build (generally considered one of the best arcane necro builds). It also means that they end up surrounding themselves with shitty undead mooks instead of badass necro-shitkickers.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineBoth are actually inferior to a specialty necro. TNs don't get access to 9th level spells and they piss away caster levels. Necro spells tend to be save or dies, so you want access to higher levels of spells (and thus higher save DCs) ASAP. The ones that aren't tend to be CL-dependent, so sacrificing a minimum of three caster levels is a bum's game.
DNs have trouble with metamagic and a limited spell list, which cuts out the Uttercold Assault Necromancer build (generally considered one of the best arcane necro builds). It also means that they end up surrounding themselves with shitty undead mooks instead of badass necro-shitkickers.
Well the thing with the Dread Necromancer is that mrlost (and I, really) wanted to play the archetypal necromancer. You know, the one that has literally
armies of undead sweeping across the land and all that? AFAICT, and I'm no super D&D expert, the Dread Necro comes the closest through sheer numbers.
Though now I am of course curious about how you make a "Uttercold Assault Necro" and surround yourself with badass necro-shitkickers.
'cause uhh, yeah.
On the subject of Necromancers, there's the 'Master Specialist' - I don't have my copy on me, but it basically gives you more spells/day and other bonuses for whatever school of magic you're specializing in.
Edit: And I forgot to say that this is from the Complete Mage book.
Remember this thread:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=599129) Redfox?
Quote from: KUttercold Assault Necromancer (Wizard)
The ultimate goal is to cast spells with the Cold Subtype that do half negative energy damage, while you and all your undead minions are immune to cold and healed by negative energy damage. Basically, this is done with Energy Substitution[cold] (a prereq for Lord of the Uttercold) and the feat Lord of the Uttercold. Then you put up Walls of Fire(uttercold) and you and all your minions dance around in them like Homer Simpson at the American Embassy regaining all your hit points every round and inflicting real evocation-style damage on your enemies. It’s hilarious. You can burn lots of feats and be a blaster mage at high levels, or take Beckon the Frozen to get cold-subtyped undead with Summon Undead that you heal with uttercold, but the essential build is two feats (though you are required to be undead or take Tomb-tainrted Soul if you want in on the fun).
For people who like numbers, look at your favorite Evocation modified by a resonable amount of Sudden or Rod-based Metamagic(or even vanilla metamagic). Then imagine your cold-immune undead like Skeletons or cold-Subbed Zombies like Frost Giants taking 1/2th of that damage each round as healing. A simple thought exercise is the 10th level Wizard with a vanilla Empowered Cold-subbed Fireball: average damage to your enemies is 15d6 (52.5 points of damage), with a save for half, and an average of 26 points of healing for every one of your minions. Makes Inflict look like crap, right?
Now, lets play this excercise with a real blaster mage: A 12th level Sorcerer with the feats from Races of the Dragon that drop metamagic costs and speed metamagic and a Rod-Maximised, Twinned Fireball: a flat 120 points of damage with a save for half and a flat 60 points of healing. Thats not even counting a once per day Sudden Empower for an extra 10d6 (35 damage, save for half, and an extra 17 points of healing).
Even if you don't want to be a blaster mage or don't want to sling together complex battle plans involving Walls of Fire(uttercold) to heal your minions and hurt your enemies, the ability to cast a single Wall of Fire after every combat to heal all your minions and perhaps yourself is an invaluable Necromantic aid.
Basically your a nasty wizard blaster rather than lord of the dead. I don't like them that much. I mean why go to the trouble really? Then again what do I know, I've never gotten to play one *shrug* and wall spells are good for battlefield control.
Ah, that thread.
But he mentioned surrounding yourself with awesome undead shitkickers. I want to know more about that. Blasty-magics aren't the fun part of necromancy. If I wanted that, I'd be an Evoker or warmage (or whatever that class is called that's a walking artillery platform).
Quote from: RedFoxAh, that thread.
But he mentioned surrounding yourself with awesome undead shitkickers. I want to know more about that. Blasty-magics aren't the fun part of necromancy. If I wanted that, I'd be an Evoker or warmage (or whatever that class is called that's a walking artillery platform).
Yeah I got no idea on that one, seems like your feats are spent on your blasty goodness rather than on the Corpse Crafter feats that would make your undead into little kill-fuck soulshitters.
I keep thinking a Master of Shrouds might be cool too considering the fun of having insubstantial undead minions hiding in pillars and stuff.
Quote from: RedFoxAh, that thread.
But he mentioned surrounding yourself with awesome undead shitkickers. I want to know more about that. Blasty-magics aren't the fun part of necromancy. If I wanted that, I'd be an Evoker or warmage (or whatever that class is called that's a walking artillery platform).
You're using the area-effect spells for two reasons. The first yes, is to blast your enemies. The second is that undead are _healed_ by negative energy damage, and many are immune to cold. So your wall of fire (uttercold) is draining the lifeforce of your foes, and healing your devourer face-mashers and your twelve-headed hydra skeletons at the same time. The Dread Necromancer has to rely on charnel touch to heal his goons, which makes it harder to keep them alive, especially since charnel touch does crap damage.
That means it's harder to keep alive low HD goons, since you've got to heal them all individually, and it's harder to keep alive high HD goons because you can't heal nearly as much damage as gets dished out at higher levels.
It's worth pointing out as well, that Uttercold Assault Necromancy requires two feats, both of which can be gotten as bonus feats in a straight Specialist Necro 20 build, leaving plenty of room for corpse-crafting feats. In exchange for those two feats, you drastically boost the effectiveness of both your character and his undead goons.
Well Pseudo, you've obviously played this character more than either of us and have more experience. So mind if I pick at you with some questions?
- Do you think you could share a "Lord of the Undead Hordes" type build you think would rock?
- Including maybe strategies for how to do it? Hopefully not too one-trick pony-ish (as those optimized builds sometimes are).
- Where do I find the feats and such to build one of these Skeletor guys?
Well, I've frequently enjoyed various Fighter/Rogue combinations to make a good tactical combatant. Generally, I don't lose too much but I do get a lot of great options. Bluff for feints, Hide/Move Silently, Spot, and Listen plus Climb is a class skill for both. I lose some HP, and my skills arn't anywhere near an actual Rogue, but they still beat straight warrior classes in a lot of cases.
Plus, Sneak Attack and the like. This, I've found, is one of the better multi-class combinations.
I remember one game where I went all out trying to build an effective Gish. (Fighter/Mage) In order to get the most milage possible, I think it looked something like Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 3/Wizard 2/Spellsword 1(2?)/Eldrich Warrior 7(6?)/Archmage 5.
But my DM wouldn't let me take Human Paragon because he thought it was racist(?) in the campaign world, and he bailed out of the game early, so I ended up looking like Fighter 1/Wizard 4 and just being kind of lame and useless.
This was before the Duskblade (which I still haven't seen, actually), and I remember being full of ire at the lack of options for Fighter/Wizards though Eldrich Warrior is ok when you can get it. I would have upped the Hit Die to d8, allowed light armor casting, not knocked a level of spellcasting off the first level, and... that's it really.
Quote from: RedFoxWell Pseudo, you've obviously played this character more than either of us and have more experience. So mind if I pick at you with some questions?
- Do you think you could share a "Lord of the Undead Hordes" type build you think would rock?
- Including maybe strategies for how to do it? Hopefully not too one-trick pony-ish (as those optimized builds sometimes are).
- Where do I find the feats and such to build one of these Skeletor guys?
Necro isn't my specialty, but I do know the arcane system reasonably well. I'll do my best to help. I'll try and keep this simple by sticking to two main books - Complete Mage and Libris Mortis, with a few dribs and drabs from other books.
Ok, first, the char. I'd go necro 3 / master specialist 10 as the basic build, with the last 7 levels adjusted to taste (probably pale master for this specific build). Use the Master Specialist Expanded Knowledge to gank Desecrate and some of the other sweet divine necromancy spells. If your DM holds to the opinion that Expanded Knowledge only applies to your own spell list, then take Arcane Disciple from Complete Arcane to get access to the "Evil" domain. You'll never cast Summon Monster IX, but it's another easy way to get access to Desecrate.
Race-wise, I'd start off human and become immune to negative energy ASAP. You can either do this by blowing the bonus human feat to get Tomb-Tainted Soul, or by becoming a necropolitan. I'd say get Tomb-Tainted Soul, since master specialist levels will give you a lot of the bonuses (at least temporarily) without making you lose a level.
For special class features, I'd take Focused Specialist from Complete Mage. I'd drop enchantment, illusion and transmutation.
For feats, I'd take:
Tomb-Tainted Soul (1st)
Energy Substition (cold) (bonus 1st)
Lord of the Uttercold (3rd)
Craft Wondrous Item (6th)
Use Craft Wondrous Item to make items that allow you control more HD of undead. I'm high and don't have access to my books, so you'll have to hunt around for such an item, or talk your DM into letting you make one.
I'd also consider Heighten Spell, Sculpt Spell and Empower Spell eventually.
Really, the most important thing to keep in mind is just to avoid animating humanoid skeletons and zombies.
Zombies:
Keep in mind that zombies keep all their movement modes (like flying and burrowing), all their natural attacks, and a decent BAB (you double their racial HD, then take half their new total hit dice in BAB). Zombies are more likely to hit than skeletons are for that reason.
What you want to do with your zombies is get forms with really good grappling capabilities and use them to grapple foes as they approach. Bonus points if the zombies grapple them while they're both trapped in an Uttercold effect (like a wall of "fire" or an "acid" fog). As a good low-level suggestion, large monstrous centipede zombies are wicked. At fourth level, you can have four of them under your control using just command undead. They get dex draining poison, a good grapple check, and they can climb fast to get foes in hard to reach places. Plus, once they're grappling, the whole "Only one standard action a round" thing doesn't suck as much.
Skeletons:
Skeletons are good because they get a full round of actions. You should therefore make skeletons of things you want to get full rounds of actions. This means things with a full attack action that gives you multiple attacks because of its race. Hydras are a classic, the more heads the better. Dig through the MM for other good suggestions. Skeletons are also pretty good ranged attackers. Arrow demon skeletons (MM3) are amazing, since somehow most of the really good Arrow Demon abilities are Extraordinary.
Skeletons are also immune to cold, which means that they get healed by Uttercold attacks.
Other undead:
You want Shadows. They're easy to control, and the Shadow spawning rules mean that you can control a nearly unlimited number of them with a handful of Command Undeads. If you're having trouble finding shadows, take Undead Leadership and get one as a cohort. They're low HD, so you can get one as soon as you're eligible for the feat (if you wait a level, until 7th, you can get a greater shadow IIRC).
For high level stuff, you mainly want to take advantage of the ability of certain undead creatures to have class levels. Mummies and vampires are good. Mummy clerics, like the one in the MM, can rebuke other undead and bring them under your control. Vamps can give you vamp spawn. Wights and ghouls make more wights and ghouls.
Basically, what you want to do to maximise the number of undead you can control at any given time is take control of a small number of undead that can control other undead. You then have the controlled undead controlling other undead, in a giant hierarchy. Look for undead creatures like shadows with the "Create Spawn" ability. When you can, take control of intelligent undead with class levels, especially clerics and necromancers who can use their spells to supplement everything. Always make sure to have higher level HD undead controlling lower HD undead, and don't just organise things racially.
This is why the corpsecrafter feats aren't super important usually. To control the maximum number of undead, you'll find yourself in charge of hordes of undead creatures that you didn't create. You'll also want to focus your control resources (Command Undead, Control Undead, whatever else you can muster) on those few top-level guys around you. You can control up to four guys with the same level as you - a greater shadow cleric, a vamp cleric, a wight cleric and a mummy cleric work reasonably well. Think of them as the high priests of your evil cult for roleplaying purposes.
In combat:
As a wizard with the Lord of the Uttercold, you basically want to cast spells with a huge area that deal negative energy damage, and keep both your own undead and your enemies in them. The longer lasting the better, which is why you want conjurations instead of evocations when possible. Don't forget that under D&D, "acid" is a kind of energy, which means things like Acid Cloud, Caustic Smoke etc. are all eligible to be Uttercolded. Conjuration (creation) spells are wicked for this.
The main thing about using your undead is just to keep tiers of control in mind. You don't want your valuable undead minions with class levels at risk, you want the chumps they control to be running around mashing everything. In general, you want your zombies to hold enemies still so that undead with ability drain, mummy rot, energy drain etc. can move in to zap them. You want your skeletons to attack as much as possible, driving enemies into effects like your Uttercolded Acid Fog, and using concealment etc.
Anyhow, hopefully this has been some help. I left a lot of parts loosely sketched out so that I didn't overdetermine things. The basic ideas are simple enough. Control undead through spawn chains. Keep them fighting-fit through area-effect damage spells.
When I was playing AD&D, it was either Half-Elf Ranger or Half-Elf Bard (the Bard class being a variant from an issue of The Dragon). Always the same thing. Admittedly, the Half-Elf Ranger was pretty much the best of all worlds.
Now that I've begun to venture into 3.0/3.5, I've stumbled onto my new favorite build -- The Halfling Axe-Slinger. Dig on this.
As a Halfling, you get a +1 racial bonus on thrown weapons, and a +1 size bonus. Be sure to make DEX your highest attribute (at least 13), but don't slack off on STR. Take the Fighter class and choose the two feats Point Blank Shot for +1 and Quick Draw. Arm yourself with a bandolier or holsters of throwing axes. At 1st Level, you can snatch an unreadied axe and throw it short range with a +4 to-hit mod. At 2nd Level, take the Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe) feat, and you're up to a +6 to-hit. At 3rd Level, take the Rapid Fire feat to make two thrown axe attacks at -2/-2 for a total of +5/+5 to hit or just one at +7. At 4th Level, take the Weapon Specialisation (Throwing Axe) feat to add +2 damage per attack at either +8 to hit or +6/+6. At 6th Level, you add another attack through normal advancement for a total of either +10/+5 to hit or +8/+8/+5, all with +2 damage. For feats, probably take the Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes feats. In fairly short order, your Halfling Fighter becomes a flurry of flying axes, and all of this without yet incorporating your DEX bonus. Be sure to drift from town to town, challenging unruly thugs in order to gain experience.
Now, I'm a newbie, so feel free to tell me where I might be mistaken, or how I might heighten to lethality of this character build. Has anyone already come up with this?
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNow, I'm a newbie, so feel free to tell me where I might be mistaken, or how I might heighten to lethality of this character build. Has anyone already come up with this?
The big problems with this build are that the throwing axe for a small character only does 1d4 damage, and that when you hit the magic weapon phase of the game, you're having to pay out about 2000 gp x your number of axes.
You're almost as fantastic just going with a longbow - that's a 1d6 damage. You lose the +1 for using a thrown weapon, but on the other hand you don't need Quick Draw and you can buy a +1 bow for 23xx gp and all of your hits are magical.
Okay, but admit it, the image of a Halfling axe-slinger is just cool. :haw:
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOkay, but admit it, the image of a Halfling axe-slinger is just cool. :haw:
Oh hell yeah. I'd play that guy over some stupid archer, magic item costs be damned.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOkay, but admit it, the image of a Halfling axe-slinger is just cool. :haw:
Total agreement! (One time at a con I was judging a girl playing a halfling dagger thrower, and her dice was hot - she kept hitting, and when she hit she kept rolling max damage. I started calling her 'The world's most dangerous halfling.')
Honestly, I think if you could talk your GM into allowing you a, oh, gauntlet or amulet or something that would give your axes a magical bonus when thrown similar to the way that bows give an arrow a magical bonus when launched, then the build would probably work out pretty well.
Quote from: jcfialaHonestly, I think if you could talk your GM into allowing you a, oh, gauntlet or amulet or something that would give your axes a magical bonus when thrown similar to the way that bows give an arrow a magical bonus when launched, then the build would probably work out pretty well.
Not a gauntlet or amulet, a
bandolier.
Ever seen "Kung Fu Hustle"? Remember the Axe Gang? I suddenly have this image of gang of hipster, axe-wielding halflings taking over a town, choreographed moves and all.
!i!
Quote from: jrientsNot a gauntlet or amulet, a bandolier.
Not a bad idea - something storing x number of throwing axes, granting them a various bonus to hit and damage if the axe has been in the bandolier a round, said bonus only lasting for the next attack made with it...
Cross with quiver of Ehlonna to allow it to store more throwing axes, I think.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaEver seen "Kung Fu Hustle"? Remember the Axe Gang? I suddenly have this image of gang of hipster, axe-wielding halflings taking over a town, choreographed moves and all.
!i!
Sounds like bards - using their perform (axe dance) skill to give each other bonuses to intimidate. :)
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhen I was playing AD&D, it was either Half-Elf Ranger or Half-Elf Bard (the Bard class being a variant from an issue of The Dragon). Always the same thing. Admittedly, the Half-Elf Ranger was pretty much the best of all worlds.
Now that I've begun to venture into 3.0/3.5, I've stumbled onto my new favorite build -- The Halfling Axe-Slinger. Dig on this.
As a Halfling, you get a +1 racial bonus on thrown weapons, and a +1 size bonus. Be sure to make DEX your highest attribute (at least 13), but don't slack off on STR. Take the Fighter class and choose the two feats Point Blank Shot for +1 and Quick Draw. Arm yourself with a bandolier or holsters of throwing axes. At 1st Level, you can snatch an unreadied axe and throw it short range with a +4 to-hit mod. At 2nd Level, take the Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe) feat, and you're up to a +6 to-hit. At 3rd Level, take the Rapid Fire feat to make two thrown axe attacks at -2/-2 for a total of +5/+5 to hit or just one at +7. At 4th Level, take the Weapon Specialisation (Throwing Axe) feat to add +2 damage per attack at either +8 to hit or +6/+6. At 6th Level, you add another attack through normal advancement for a total of either +10/+5 to hit or +8/+8/+5, all with +2 damage. For feats, probably take the Improved Initiative and Combat Reflexes feats. In fairly short order, your Halfling Fighter becomes a flurry of flying axes, and all of this without yet incorporating your DEX bonus. Be sure to drift from town to town, challenging unruly thugs in order to gain experience.
Now, I'm a newbie, so feel free to tell me where I might be mistaken, or how I might heighten to lethality of this character build. Has anyone already come up with this?
!i!
You should PrC into Master Thrower, which will give you class abilities that replicate several of your feat choices, IIRC. I forget if it's in Complete Warrior or Complete Adventurer though. Also, buy magical axes with the returning ability, and spec each one to do different kinds of energy damage - shocking, flaming and icy axes - to overcome DR and boost your damage.
Get the fuck out. There's actually a prestige class called "Master Thrower"? Oh, mama. :rolleyes:
The boomerang axes would be a nice touch, though. I suppose once the game has entered the "magic weapon phase", that'd be the way to go. I can imagine having three or four of them and just keeping them going through the air like a juggler with an invisible partner.
!i!
Found it. It's in Complete Warrior, pg 58. The pre-reqs are BAB +5, 4 ranks of Sleight of Hand, and Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Weapon Focus for a thrown weapon. In exchange, you get Quick Draw for free, Evasion, a bunch of cool tricks, Snatch Arrows and Improved Crit for any throwing weapon you've got weapon focus in, as well as full BAB. And that's in five levels. It's pretty wicked.
Hunh. So someone decided to fast-track what I was planning on doing with the Fighter class alone. Granted, I was thinking it was going to take a darned long while to work in tasty feats like Shot on the Run, Evasion, Deflect Arrows, and maybe Far Shot.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHunh. So someone decided to fast-track what I was planning on doing with the Fighter class alone. Granted, I was thinking it was going to take a darned long while to work in tasty feats like Shot on the Run and maybe Far Shot.
!i!
So the only downside is you gotta wait awhile for Quick Draw. On the upside, you get to do that cool Jack Burton "snatch the axe outta the air and toss it back" thing.
Instead of Quick Draw, maybe just take Weapon Focus earlier.
EDIT: Or hell, you're going to be a Fighter, so you've got the Feats to burn. Take Improved Initiative.
EDIT the 2nd: Though passing up Precise Shot when you can get it is painful. That feat is ultra-necessary for any ranged monkey.
Book of 9 Swords has a prestige class, designed for Warblades IIRC, that turns any weapon you throw into a boomerang.
Okay, this discussion broaches a criticism that I've long heard about 3.0/3.5 -- Feat Bloat. Feel free to redirect me if you think I'm derailing this thread, but it seems to me that there are a lot of Prestige Classes out there that were written by people who lacked the patience or imagination to work within the established character classes. I mean, this is the sort of thing that my friends and I used to do with 1st ed AD&D, creating variant classes like monks with better ACs and HtH damage and fewer restrictions, samurai who inexplicably deal incredible amounts of damage, etc.
Take my Halfling Axe-Slinger, for example. I'm rather proud that, after stumbling upon the formula with my Halfling Monk on the PbP here (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4270), I figured out a way to make it work and optimise it within the existing rules. Prestige Classes seem to be short-cuts that bend the rules (and sometimes break them?). Inside of 6 levels of the Fighter Class, my build pretty much has what the Master Thrower PrC begins to offer only at 5th Level, and the PrC only seems to throw in the freebies of Evasion, Quick Draw, etc. to account for lack of planning or sacrifice at the start. My character build is a focused and probably self-taught devotee of a very particular style of fighting right from the start at 1st Level, while the PrC proposes a later specialisation, seemingly by means of joining a guild or society of like-minded throwing artists. Bah, I say. I need no such flimsy excuses for my power-gaming.
Oh, and Sleight of Hand as a prerequisite to join the PrC? Like my axe-slinger is going to want to hide his axes? I think not. He wears them proudly, like a challenge to lesser beings, not like a cowardly sneak-thief. Besides, I'd recommend spending those skill points on Perform (Dance) so he really can do the disco axe dance from "Kung Fu Hustle" after another successful challenge. This character build is becoming so badass I just have to play him. :haw:
!i!
Er, no offense dude, but he's actually kind of weak. You're blowing a lot of feats to basically do 1d4+Str in damage a few times a round at high levels. A simple human fighter with a comp longbow and a greatsword - the most generic kit a 3.5 fighter can have - would fuck him in the mouth for breakfast. He'd outrange and out damage him in shooting, and would deal significantly more damage in close quarters.
There are two things Master Thrower gives you that you can't get on your own. The first is not having to spend a feat on Quickdraw (which is a shitty feat if you have to spend one of your feat slots on it, fighter bonus feats or no). The second is the various cool abilities and tricks that are only available as Master Thrower class features. Even with Master Thrower, he's not going to be great, but he won't be as bad. He'll have his niche, and be able to do a few things that a better equipped fighter or a warblade couldn't.
To be more constructive, if you wanted a cool halfling axe thrower who can dish out the damage, I'd take one level in Scout, two levels in Fighter, seven levels in Scout, then five of Master Thrower and then more Scout (or whatever you want). You want 13+ Dex, and Str as high as possible.
Featwise, here's a sample feat tree that gives you lots of gravy:
1st: Point Blank Shot
2nd bonus Fighter feat: Brutal Throw (from Complete Adventurer)
3rd: Weapon Focus (Throwing Weapon of Choice)
3rd bonus Fighter feat: Precise Shot
6th: Rapid Shot
6th bonus Scout feat: Dodge
9th: Mobility
10th bonus Scout feat: Shot on the Run
11th Master Thrower bonus feat: Quickdraw
12th: Power Attack
15th: Power Throw (from Complete Adventurer)
15th bonus Master Thrower: Snatch Arrows
Your two feats at 18th level are open to whatever else you want. This char scoots around using Shot on the Run to get in close with skirmish damage, then Power Attacks with his axe for a reasonable amount of damage and backs off, using his enhanced movement to stay out of range of the baddies.
I'd also switch the weapons to Kukris. They only do 1d3 for smalls, but they crit on an 18-20. Once you get Critical Throw from Master Thrower, that becomes crit on a 15-20, which doubles most of your bonus damage (skirmish damage isn't). If you go this way, take Power Critical as one of your 18th level feats.
For MT tricks, I'd take Trip Shot, Doubletoss and Weak Spot, in that order.
Anyhow, that'd make your character a lot stronger, while preserving the core idea of a self-sufficient halfling axe thrower.
Am I belying my old school AD&D roots when I tell you that I have difficulty looking practically past 5th or 6th Level? :deflated: Admittedly, your variant on the build I proposed is a better power build at higher levels. But waiting until 11th Level for Quick Draw? It'd be months before I'd even begin to realise my character concept. And, still, Sleight of Hand? Please. I'd be begging the GM to let me trade that out for something less ignoble (like Perform (Dance)!). And trading out the tomahawk for the kukri? You speak blasphemy, man.
Does it also show that, ultimately, I prefer style over substance when I try to powergame?
!i!
Dude, you don't _need_ Quickdraw until 11th level (actually a few levels later because of the Scouts 3/4 BAB, but I don't want to do the math right now). Until then, you've got at most two attacks in a full attack action. You can hold two axes in your hands, and draw a new one every move action as part of moving. :p You only need Quickdraw when you've got more than two attacks in your full attack action.
Sleight of Hand is just the skill of being really dexy with your hands. It's good for hiding weapons all over your body. It's good for sneaking your axes into places you're not supposed to have them.
And kukris are wicked. They're these brutal curved knives used by Gurkhas from Nepal for just about everything from fighting to carving. They're totally in line with the whole "wild hunter" angle.
As for low-level play, this build actually has quite a smooth power development between 3rd and 16th. At 6th level, you have as many feats as a 6th level fighter would. Your BAB is only a few points behind them, and you're actually dealing more damage thanks to your skirmish damage.
Ultimately, there isn't really a dichotomy between style and substance. The trick is to use the mechanics to help you realise your concept, rather than fight against them by sticking to one class, or picking suboptimal feats or anything. It's like being a really good painter in that the technical skill supplements, rather than replaces, the creative vision.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineDude, you don't _need_ Quickdraw until 11th level (actually a few levels later because of the Scouts 3/4 BAB, but I don't want to do the math right now). Until then, you've got at most two attacks in a full attack action.
Hrm. My read of Quick Draw was that it allowed you to ready a weapon and attack with it in a single action without needing to spend a move action. Admittedly, my understanding of the breakdown of a combat turn in 3.0/3.5 is imperfect.
QuoteSleight of Hand is just the skill of being really dexy with your hands. It's good for hiding weapons all over your body. It's good for sneaking your axes into places you're not supposed to have them.
Oh, I realise all that, but there you go again, suggesting my Halfling axe-slinger is some sort of chicken-shit sneak thief, who wouldn't brandish his tomahawks openly and proudly. Fie on thee. Fie, I say.
QuoteAnd kukris are wicked.
[/i]Granted. I'm quite familiar with them, but not as throwing weapons (no matter what the book says). Tell you what -- I'll meet you halfway and the Halfling carries a kukri as a hold-out weapon.
QuoteUltimately, there isn't really a dichotomy between style and substance. The trick is to use the mechanics to help you realise your concept, rather than fight against them by sticking to one class, or picking suboptimal feats or anything. It's like being a really good painter in that the technical skill supplements, rather than replaces, the creative vision.
Now, see? This is where we begin to broach the topic of what I called "Feat Bloat". In order to create the character you described, I have to search out this extra book (two books?) that I don't have in order to work around these "suboptimal" standard feats to which I, and ostensibly every other D&D player out there, have access. It's like the old days when someone would come to the table with a crazy, suped-up character they rolled up from an unofficial variant class that appeared in the latest issue of The Dragon magazine. Or like when some jackass would show up at the table with one of WW's latest splat books.
I mean, in order to
really optimise my character, why don't I write up the Prestige Class "Halfling Axe-Slinger", make up some super-specific feats that pump up the crit capabilities of a thrown axe, and call it good? Yes, I realise that it wouldn't be official, but it's like the crazy-ass Spiked Chain Fighter everyone was on about a year or two back -- a PrC built specifically to optimise a single weapon. And being loathe to dig up esoteric feat lists to nit-pick my character into top form doesn't strike me as fighting against the mechanics.
!i!
D&D 3.5 puts a lot more character customisation into the game, because character customisation is fun for most people. If you aren't interested in fine-tuning your character, discovering new feats and PrCs that give him new powers, you're not really getting the full 3.5 experience. That doesn't mean buying every supplement out there, but the Complete series is good value for money because of the large number of options for characters packed in.
As well, because D&D has a large, elaborate system of mechanics all interacting with one another, learning how to properly use the system is key to the play experience. It's also fun as heck once you do finally understand it. Once again, the comparison is to any other skill - learning a skill at first sucks, until you get good in it, and you enjoy the internal goods to the practice (the feeling of competence, the pride in a job well done, etc.)
Part of learning how the system works is learning that yes, there actually are better and worse choices. These better and worse choices don't force you to imitate a select number of builds (people who slavishly imitate a build usually do so because they don't understand the system all that well), but they do shape your choices. Learning how to take these materials and reconcile them with your concept is part of the challenge involved in mastering the system.
These are basically the differences on a structural level between 3.x and 2nd. If you don't learn to appreciate the position 3.x takes on them, you're just going to be happier playing 2nd ed. If that's the case, then don't lay down in the Procrustean bed. Just dust off your copy of Birthright or Planescape and get to it.
Dude, Pseudo... not everybody plays D&D's optimization customization game to the hilt. And the game is flexible enough to handle sub-optimal choices made for flavor, or ignoring various splatbooks.
I get that you're really into it. I think that's great. It's enthusiastic and nifty and shows your mastery. But your attitude that it's "play these optimized multi-class / PrC builds or go play 2nd Ed" is poison.
Yes, he'd be better off mechanically by making a kukri Throw Master. But a halfling axe-hurler built from core can be just as fun. Magic kit can make up for a lot, as can not playing in a group of min-maxers.
Back off a bit, man. You're getting all grognard-intense.
Quote from: RedFoxDude, Pseudo... not everybody plays D&D's optimization customization game to the hilt. And the game is flexible enough to handle sub-optimal choices made for flavor, or ignoring various splatbooks.
I get that you're really into it. I think that's great. It's enthusiastic and nifty and shows your mastery. But your attitude that it's "play these optimized multi-class / PrC builds or go play 2nd Ed" is poison.
Yes, he'd be better off mechanically by making a kukri Throw Master. But a halfling axe-hurler built from core can be just as fun. Magic kit can make up for a lot, as can not playing in a group of min-maxers.
Back off a bit, man. You're getting all grognard-intense.
I'm trying to strike a balance here. I'm not suggesting unplayable builds or builds that are incredibly different from what people want. Instead, I'm trying to show how substance and style can be united if only one makes the effort to do so. It's not that he has to pick these crappy feats, or else somehow he's being inauthentic to his artistic vision.
Once again, it's a bit like any sort of craft. You pick your materials because they have properties amenable to what you want to do. You don't sculpt a statue when you really want to be doing computer animation, and you don't whittle a birdhouse when you'd rather be photographing rivers. Ian genuinely seems to dislike the materials of D&D 3.x. He doesn't like the feats, he doesn't like PrCs. These are the building blocks of characters in 3.x. Building characters is an integral part of the fun in 3.x - the game spends more words on character options than just about any other aspect. If someone doesn't like building characters in D&D 3.x because they don't like the materials, then they'd be better off playing another game. Fortunately, this problem is also the very difference between 3.x and 2nd ed. It's a short jump back to a game he's already familiar with, and that he seems to enjoy much more.
Heck, for years I couldn't stand building D&D 3.x characters, so I played FUDGE and Mage and yes, AD&D 2nd instead. Now I do enjoy it, so I play D&D 3.x. I'm proposing that Ian merely honestly evaluate whether or not he's going to be really happy carving soap figurines when he really wants to be building muscle cars, and has admitted as much.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineThese are basically the differences on a structural level between 3.x and 2nd. If you don't learn to appreciate the position 3.x takes on them, you're just going to be happier playing 2nd ed. If that's the case, then don't lay down in the Procrustean bed. Just dust off your copy of Birthright or Planescape and get to it.
That's
1st edition, and I didn't like it that much. I'm liking the hit I'm getting off of 3.x quite nicely. But suggesting that I'm not experiencing the game properly if I'm not actively seeking out additional and
optional rules -- that I might add, are just something someone else made up to amp up the game, just like I might make shit up myself -- are you serious? Dare I say it? This sounds like that "Swine" talk Pundit goes on about.
Look, the difference between getting good at optimising a character in 3.x, and, say, getting good at optimising the performance of my car's engine is simple. In 3.x I can just make shit up, or borrow from something that someone else already made up. If my GM allows it, I'm golden. With my car, I have to work within the laws of physics and the specific mechanical and electrical plan of the engine. I can't make shit up for my car's engine that break the laws of physics and applied mechanics. I can get really good at optimising the performance of the engine as designed, but making up a new engine is a different task all together.
Okay, I just thought of a handful of examples where people
have just plain made shit up for automobile engines to change the performance, but that's almost a different matter entirely.
Do you see what I'm getting at? How many feats are there out there? How many PrCs? How many of them overlap or duplicate another's intended purpose? How much of it is just making up new rules for those who are too impatient or not imaginative enough to work within the core rules to create the character they want? How much of this is just making shit up to create a pet character?
Please, don't get me wrong, Pseudo. I'm not questioning your personal approach to playing 3.x or the entertainment you derive from it. Understand that I am, by my own admission, a rank noob. Since 2000, I've been hearing all of these complaints about the new D&D, a game I figured I'd never bother playing. But here I am, learning to play it, discovering that most of what I'd heard was (largely unqualified) opinion, and that I rather like it. The one complaint that seems to have stuck, though, is the Feat and PrC Bloat. Honestly, I don't think it differs significantly from WW's splat-fest of the 90s, and that confounded countless would-be players, too.
I want you to know that I really appreciate your replies, and taking my questions and opinions seriously. I guess while you're tricking out your 2006 Honda Civic street drifter and chipping the fuel injection for better performance, I'm polishing up my cherry '66 Mustang and tweaking the carbeurator for just the right throb and hum.
!i!
(P.S. I'm sorry, but a kukri just ain't made for throwing. Yeah, I'm sure a
master thrower could manage it, but...whatever. :p )
Quote from: PseudoephedrineIan genuinely seems to dislike the materials of D&D 3.x. He doesn't like the feats, he doesn't like PrCs. These are the building blocks of characters in 3.x.
[...snip...]
It's a short jump back to a game he's already familiar with, and that he seems to enjoy much more.
This is so
wrong I'm wondering where you came up with it. I stated quite clearly that I don't care for the
bloat. I hope that will be made clearer in the post I just logged above. I rather like the structure of feats and I can see that they were designed with a mind toward expanding the library. I think there's a point of diminishing returns, though. I'll admit that I find Prestige Classes, while rather cool, to be largely superfluous. For the players at least. They're the sort of thing the GM should be using for campaign and world building.
I don't know...are you projecting your early experience with 3.x onto my expressed dissatisfaction with what I perceive as bloat?
Let me finish by clearly stating that I like 3.x, I like feats, I've eyed a couple of PrCs with interest, and that I don't need to be reconsidering my clearly stated appreciation based on my lack of interest in min-maxing a character through exhaustive research of optional materials.
!i!
To stick with the metaphor of automobiles for a moment, the difference between home-brewed material and WotC material is between J. Random Fellow tinkering with your engine and a professional mechanic. It's true, J. Random might turn out to be fantastic, and the professional mechanic will occasionally flub things, but the latter is a more reliable choice than the former, especially as the system they deal with gets more complex.
D&D is now so complex that it has its own glossary of special terms. It's actually remarkably difficult to brew up feats and PrCs as an amateur that don't fuck things up seriously, especially if you're just starting out. The trick is never, of course, that they directly fuck things up, but that there's some unintended consequence or interaction that you just didn't think about.
That's not to scare you off house-ruling things and coming up with your own stuff of course, but especially when you're new and not entirely familiar with the system, it's easy to fuck up. You say "Hey, what about a feat that lets me make someone flat-footed for a round just by doing X?" and your new DM thinks it over and goes "Sure, it'll just let you sneak attack a bit more than you otherwise could." But all of a sudden, your rogue is doing more damage than the fighter, and the DM gets worried, and he builds a couple of rogues with the same feat, and they proceed to fuck the whole party over without anyone expecting them to. This is just a hypothetical - the specific problems always vary from group to group, of course. We've had some close calls in my group, especially when we changed over from 3.0 to 3.5 and then merged 3.5 with Arcana Unearthed, but nothing yet that's fucked over an entire game.
The other reason, of course, is just that no single amateur is as creatively fecund as a team of people paid to come up with ideas. There are a lot of great PrCs out there already that you'd just duplicate roughly, but without the benefit of playtesting or careful editing to sort out the bugs. There are also a lot of PrCs you'd just never come up with yourself, but that you might be interested in anyhow. The same is true of the feats, and often spells. That's why people buy the books. They're creative prosthetics. They give you the mechanical information and details so that you can concentrate on other things instead of having to devote your time to fiddling over whether this PrC should have 3/4 or full BAB.
I come out of that intense house-ruling 2nd ed. environment as well, so I know the appeal of the idea that house-ruling is gonna solve everything. I was one of those guys who drew up his own critical hit tables and skill systems (because non-weapon proficiencies sucked) and everything. But you know what? That shit was a waste of my time, really. I could have spent my time better in learning how to supply the things that the books didn't - personality, excitement, fun - rather than reinventing the wheel. It's a better use of your time to slap on Master Thrower levels, make a few choices about what tricks to learn and get back to playing than it is to draw up a Halfing Axe-Thrower PrC and decide every detail of the PrC.
Optimisation is a related pressure. It's better and more fun to be good at what you want to do, and to play a character who is good at doing those things. Optimisation lets you do that, so that you aren't stuck, for example, with a bum feat that you don't need for 11 levels that makes you feel fucking useless, or so that you don't have a character who gets fucked by a shadow at level 4, even though you spent two days coming up with a really cool back story that was totally going to come up next session. Optimisation makes you feel more competent, and competence is fun. It's an "internal good" - not something that can be given to you by others, and that comes around as a result of the consequences of your actions, but a virtue or a good thing that you embody by doing the actions in a certain way.
Anyhow, that's my bit. Look on the bright side, I haven't thrown out any statistical tables comparing spell slots per level, or BAB or average damage per attack yet. ;)
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThis is so wrong I'm wondering where you came up with it. I stated quite clearly that I don't care for the bloat. I hope that will be made clearer in the post I just logged above. I rather like the structure of feats and I can see that they were designed with a mind toward expanding the library. I think there's a point of diminishing returns, though. I'll admit that I find Prestige Classes, while rather cool, to be largely superfluous. For the players at least. They're the sort of thing the GM should be using for campaign and world building.
I don't know...are you projecting your early experience with 3.x onto my expressed dissatisfaction with what I perceive as bloat?
Let me finish by clearly stating that I like 3.x, I like feats, I've eyed a couple of PrCs with interest, and that I don't need to be reconsidering my clearly stated appreciation based on my lack of interest in min-maxing a character through exhaustive research of optional materials.
!i!
It's possible I am, but it's also the case that calling it "bloat" isn't exactly positive. Like I said, character building in D&D 3.x is all about options and customisation. Two of the basic kinds of options given to you, the PC, are feats and PrCs. Skills, stats, spells and equipment are the other main areas, and spells and equipment undergo the same constant expansion as feats and PrCs, which would seem to also make them "bloated". You've got it exactly backwards on PrCs for example. They're _more_ for PCs than for DMs to use.
If you find that kind of thing bloated, then I think it's reasonable to conclude that you don't like the idea of endless choice. But since selecting from all that endless choice is a key part of making a PC, and making a PC is a key part of D&D's fun, I do find it strange that you like D&D 3.x. It's like having someone take a shit on your steak and potatoes and then just eating around it.
Y'know, if someone took the wrong feat and ends up regretting its fuck-uselessness, the DM can always just let them change the damn thing.
I dunno, I'm getting a strong rules-lawyer vibe here. There's nothing wrong with amateur car-building, or what-have-you. I think the core-only halfling axe-thrower's pretty keen, myself.
Then again, I tend to play single-class builds and make non-optimal decisions all the time. I love stuff like Skill Focus (Diplomacy). *shrug* To each their own.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineIf you find that kind of thing bloated, then I think it's reasonable to conclude that you don't like the idea of endless choice. But since selecting from all that endless choice is a key part of making a PC, and making a PC is a key part of D&D's fun, I do find it strange that you like D&D 3.x. It's like having someone take a shit on your steak and potatoes and then just eating around it.
...
Hunh?
I believe I'm done with this discussion.
!i!
[Edit: No, sorry. One last thing...
Quote from: PseudoephredineThat's why people buy the books. They're creative prosthetics. They give you the mechanical information and details so that you can concentrate on other things instead of having to devote your time to fiddling over whether this PrC should have 3/4 or full BAB.
I'd much rather be concentrating my time on playing the
game, not basking in "endless choice" and wishing I could play the character I'd just tweaked. That's a bit of a low blow, but really now.
Now I'm done.]
QuoteThen again, I tend to play single-class builds and make non-optimal decisions all the time. I love stuff like Skill Focus (Diplomacy). *shrug* To each their own.
I rather like going single-class myself. 3.X is much more forgiving about mutli classing than any of the old games were, but I still often wind up feeling like I'm just missing out on some good stuff if I start going hog wild with the multiclassing.
Whether it's skill lists that don't line up quite right, or missing out on spells, or class abilities, it seems there's always a tradeoff, and I'm notoriously bad at accepting those sorts of trade-offs.
I just want to say:
D&D 3.5 allows for a variety of interesting characters and combinations. Obviously not all combinations are models of efficiency and optimisation, but that's ok. The system is forgiving enough that non optimised characters are still usually fine, or can cover deficiencies with gear. THe skilled player can definitely hit out of his weight class with a great build-- sometimes waay out of his weight class. And that's great too.
But there's room for all kinds of characters!
Quote from: Abyssal MawI just want to say:
D&D 3.5 allows for a variety of interesting characters and combinations. Obviously not all combinations are models of efficiency and optimisation, but that's ok. The system is forgiving enough that non optimised characters are still usually fine, or can cover deficiencies with gear. THe skilled player can definitely hit out of his weight class with a great build-- sometimes waay out of his weight class. And that's great too.
But there's room for all kinds of characters!
Yup! Just don't try and make a ranged Pally. ^_^
I didn't think you could throw Kukris... I thought about it one time, but I remember deciding against it for a few reasons. Maybe I'm wrong? (Is it a Master Thrower ability?)
Speaking of which, can anyone give me an evaluation of my Fighter/Mage build earlier?
Quote from: Thanatos02I didn't think you could throw Kukris...
The Gurkha's can
As the Argentinian's found out in the Falklands :devil:
How suboptimal is a Spellscale barbarian/sorceror/cleric/sorceror/rogue/sorcerer/fighter/sorceror...?
i.e. alternates level 1 of something with Sorceror levels. Maybe at sompoint getting to level 2 of the other classes (favoured class sorceror)
V.
Quote from: Thanatos02I didn't think you could throw Kukris... I thought about it one time, but I remember deciding against it for a few reasons. Maybe I'm wrong? (Is it a Master Thrower ability?)
And even if, say, some master weaponsmith fabricates a kukri balanced for throwing, the particular qualities of a kukri that give it the improved critical (the chop-and-draw attack motion) wouldn't be replicated in throwing it. How would I rule a throwing-balanced kukri? As an axe.
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonThe Gurkha's can...
Really? I've never heard of such a thing. Perhaps this is the topic for another thread, though. :deflated:
!i!
Really, I'm not surprised at a class like Master Thrower existing. For example, for ranged combat, bows just seem to do it better. You don't need Quick Draw, really, for example, arrows are cheaper then axes, and their range is far longer.
But throwing stuff is cool in a big way, and there are throwing weapons, so...
All I know is that one of my arguments for the pros of PrCs' existance is that a knife thrower is at a real loss to an archer or a dude with a giant sword. It's not that there were serious pros and cons, one of which was damage - it was that throwing became downright prohibitive at some point especially compared to the subpar damage a knife thrower could do, then a PrC or new Feats to combat that were a good thing.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNo, sorry. One last thing...I'd much rather be concentrating my time on playing the game, not basking in "endless choice" and wishing I could play the character I'd just tweaked. That's a bit of a low blow, but really now.
You're not "concentrating on playing the game" if you're not learning how to improve your performance, whether mechanically or otherwise. You're just diddling around in bullshit dichotomies. "Clearly, if I attempt to make a wise choice mechanically, I am being inauthentic to my dreams."
Quote from: RedFoxY'know, if someone took the wrong feat and ends up regretting its fuck-uselessness, the DM can always just let them change the damn thing.
I dunno, I'm getting a strong rules-lawyer vibe here. There's nothing wrong with amateur car-building, or what-have-you. I think the core-only halfling axe-thrower's pretty keen, myself.
There's no backstory or clear concept for it other than a combat role, and it does that combat role poorly. Why do you think it's "pretty keen"?
I'm not being a rules-lawyer here, I'm trying to crack this idiotic dichotomy Ian's got in his head and that you're buying into as well - that somehow, sucking mechanically is a more authentic form of existence for PCs than seeking to be competent and skilled.
QuoteThen again, I tend to play single-class builds and make non-optimal decisions all the time. I love stuff like Skill Focus (Diplomacy). *shrug* To each their own.
Do you just shove pawns around in chess too?
I dislike this kind of thinking because it treats characters as idiots who don't understand how their world works, and who don't take their own survival seriously. Not every PC has to be a copy of something from the CharOp boards, but PCs should be like real people who plan to get involved in dangerous situations by making choices that increase their effectiveness at doing things relevant to their survival. This is more proper than randomly selecting feats because you, the player, don't really understand the system so you just grab a random bunch of stuff that seems neat.
Thanatos02> Yes, exactly. Throwing really sucks in the core. A halfling axe-thrower using core-only feats and progressing as Fighter 20 with a bunch of bad feats taken at the wrong time is basically a sign that you don't know much about the mechanics of D&D, don't care to learn much about the mechanics, and would therefore probably more enjoy a game that doesn't have those mechanics.
I love clerics.
I love dwarves.
Oddly enough, this means I love dwarven clerics. Especially the big-semi-stereotyped-bash-shit-with-warhammers dwarven clerics. :) Pump Strength, Con, and Wisdom; don't dump-stat Charisma. Screw Dexterity... He's a cleric. He's got armor to cover his ass.
-O
Quote from: PseudoephedrineThere's no backstory or clear concept for it other than a combat role, and it does that combat role poorly. Why do you think it's "pretty keen"?
Dude, the concept is just to be a hip dancing gangster like the Axe Gang dudes from Kungfu Hustle, its sort of a funny but cool concept. I mean how many of us haven't been inspired by a movie when building characters or guilty of ripping off a character concept? I know I've built Jayne Cobb in at least a dozen systems by now.
Its not a fully realized character but he stated pretty clearly what his concept was: Hip Dancing Halfling Axe Gang gangster. I agree he should probably try optimizing that as much as possible unless there aren't going to be too many knock down fights in the game.
Anyway, you've convinced me to try an Utter Cold Necromancer the next time I get a chance to play a suitably high level game.
Furthermore, I've been convinced by a thread of Redfox's on the Violent Violet Vomitorium to play some RPGA modules, so I've built a Cabal of Shadows faction: Tiefling Artificer that has me rather excited. I'm also keen on this House Lyrander Marshal that I've built with a +21 Diplomacy bonus and some fun looking buffs. I'm planning on building both a Warlock and a Dreadnecromancer now so I have a wealth of options incase I have enough time to play multiple modules, or in case the group I get already has an Artificer, or a Warlock or whatever.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineA halfling axe-thrower using core-only feats and progressing as Fighter 20 with a bunch of bad feats taken at the wrong time is basically a sign that you don't know much about the mechanics of D&D, don't care to learn much about the mechanics, and would therefore probably more enjoy a game that doesn't have those mechanics.
This is what Pundit calls being a Swine, right? I'm not playing your favorite game the way it "should" be played, so I can't possibly be enjoying it. Am I brain damaged, too? You're telling a rank noob that he's not playing the game "right", so he shouldn't be playing it at all.
I was completely sincere when I stated last night that I appreciated your input. Now I don't. You're apparently way, way deep into your little world, and I'm not convinced it's the same one that other players share. Enjoy drawing up your hypothetical characters in there.
!i!
Come on, everyone. Let's not ruin a good thread.
For the most part, a lot of classes are pre-built for you. Rangers, Paladins, and Rogues for example, already have the most important parts. Rage and a d12 go pretty far with Barbarians. With Sorcerers, you only need to make the right choice once, and there are a lot of them, so even if Sorcerers arn't as versitile, you can be pretty assured of having a character with a base level of awesomeness.
Fighters? Well, not really. At the very worst, your Fighter is going to have a totally full BaB, access to any armor he can find, and pretty good HP. This is pretty much the base level of need for a Fighter to contribute at a bare minimum and in a lot of games, this is ok. Anything you select is generally going to be at least minimally successful, and that's ok.
I think the problem, to Pseudophedrine here (if I may), is that no matter how many of those Feats you take as your cool Halfling axe-thrower, you're operating at that base minimum. The best you've got really is an Attack Bonus that's a little higher then your base, and poor damage with modifiers that are on the low end of the spectrum. Anyone can and will outperform you at everything, all the time, even if you're not deadweight and, chances are, your cool concept deserves more then that. (And I think it does, really, because it's really neat.)
Now, you don't want to spend forever trying to find the 'best' Feats, because playing is more interesting to you, and I wholly sympathise. I like options, but I don't like that it's hard to make a thrower that's on an even keel with the most basic and generic kit in D&D. (Guy with a big sword that hits things in exactly the same way, every round.) Of course, with a little effort (on someone elses part, I might add), you can have the exact same concept but it'll perform a lot better.
Maybe that really doesn't matter at all to you. But a characters mechanical competancy being at a vaguely even level to facilitate teamwork is, for better or worse, a core of the games principles. If you're not interested in numbers, but want to play with your friends, you lose very little (if anything) by letting your friendly peeps at therpgsite give you a hand with the mechanics.
I don't know if this is your mindset, but I realize that, out there, there's some mislead belief that using PrCs and paying attention to your Feat selection indicates a problem player or some kind of bloat. It doesn't and isn't. It's there because Core doesn't facilitate all perfectly reasonable concepts evenly.
Quote from: Thanatos02If you're not interested in numbers, but want to play with your friends, you lose very little (if anything) by letting your friendly peeps at therpgsite give you a hand with the mechanics.
Which is what I did ask for. What I didn't expect was being told that I wasn't enjoying the game and that I'm apparently not qualified to play it. That's just been weird shit.
I do appreciate your input. That's how I learn to play the game, or at least how some other people play it. Thanks.
!i!
I'd love to help more, but at best, I possess the Complete Line*, and that's at home. (while I'm not)
*At the most basic level, at my table, I kind of feel that the Complete books are the last generic books that I allow without special consideration. Because I've got my own campaign world, complete with specific PrCs and Feats, I prefer to allow those to other campaign or environmental specific abilities. Dessicating, for example, would never fly.
Quote from: mrlostDude, the concept is just to be a hip dancing gangster like the Axe Gang dudes from Kungfu Hustle, its sort of a funny but cool concept. I mean how many of us haven't been inspired by a movie when building characters or guilty of ripping off a character concept? I know I've built Jayne Cobb in at least a dozen systems by now.
Its not a fully realized character but he stated pretty clearly what his concept was: Hip Dancing Halfling Axe Gang gangster. I agree he should probably try optimizing that as much as possible unless there aren't going to be too many knock down fights in the game.
His build doesn't realise that concept in any particularly strong way. It's neither particularly mobile, nor particularly dangerous. The Axe Gang, if memory serves, were mostly mooks, so if that's what he wants, that's what he's building.
Quote from: mrlostAnyway, you've convinced me to try an Utter Cold Necromancer the next time I get a chance to play a suitably high level game.
I'm gonna use one as the villain of an Aztec/Incan style civilisation and the Big Bad of the entire campaign in my pirates game. It's a really cool build.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhich is what I did ask for. What I didn't expect was being told that I wasn't enjoying the game and that I'm apparently not qualified to play it. That's just been weird shit.
No one said either to you, you fucking ingrate. I did say, however, that if you don't like some of the core mechanics of D&D, you should play a game with mechanics you do like rather than whining bizarrely about how "feat bloat" and PrCs are ruining the game (how the fuck would you know? You're a self-proclaimed "newbie" who doesn't doesn't seem to own any non-core books).
I also said you were crappy at building D&D characters, which is just self-evident from the build you did post. Being crappy at building D&D characters doesn't "disqualify" you from playing - it just means you're not very good at playing the game.
You know, just tonight I recognised who you are. I kept thinking that I should know you from somewhere else, and I realised that I do. So now it makes sense why you post the way you do. Have fun, man.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou know, just tonight I recognised who you are. I kept thinking that I should know you from somewhere else, and I realised that I do. So now it makes sense why you post the way you do. Have fun, man.
!i!
Well, that's awfully paranoid. I don't even know who the hell you are, let alone have some secret identity to harass you.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI've never heard of such a thing. Perhaps this is the topic for another thread, though. :deflated:
Wiki says that they aren't, but googling for "throwing kukri" throws up a lot of results. I've seen a Gurka throw a kukri as part of a demo
years ago, but it might have been a specially balanced one designed to impress credulous overpriviliged young boys
I've learned something new. I guess it makes sense in that you can throw anything, but some things are balanced better for the feat. After all, regular knives and axes aren't meant for throwing either. Heck, my son still marvels at my prowess at throwing a weed puller, a trick honed from years of fanatic weeding of the yard. Basically, you work with a tool long enough, sooner or later you develop a sense of the balance and dynamics of the object.
!i!
There's always the 'Throw Anything' feat.
FWW, I find the halfling axe-thrower build perfectly acceptable.
The smaller weapon size, definitely drives some people nuts. I have a friend who goes on and on about how hard it is to make a small sized warrior character "work", just because the weapon size is always going to be around the d4 or d3 range. At lower levels (4 and under) this is bound to be painful.
The reason is, you have defined a role as a battler, and yet you will end up with a bit of a struggle fulfilling it just due to size restraints. 3.0 was more forgiving that way.
Consequently, often the smaller guys will avoid direct melee roles, and concentrate on being sneaks, casters, and "generalists".
And yet, I love playing my gnome barbarian wearing double claw-gauntlets.
There's a two step process to any build-fix once it's already in play.
1) Identify your needs
2) cover them with gear.
3) Plan for the Future with Feats*
That's what gear is for, really. So if the problem is "You don't hit often enough", you need magical weapons. If the problem is "you don't do enough damage", you need to start stocking up on things like Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Belt of Giant Strength, potions of Bulls strength (in the short term, this is your best solution). As a monk, you should also look into amulets of natural armor and possible some bracers and rings of protection.
Otherwise, eh. It's just D&D. Don't sweat it.
* My campaign allows "free respec" of all non-dependent feats upon attainment of any level. So as long as you don't have a Prestige class or ability or other feat that is depending on a feat, you can pretty much just switch it out and nobody says anything.
Weapons enchanted with Mighty Wallop - or the bigger version
V.
Quote from: Abyssal MawThere's always the 'Throw Anything' feat.
FWW, I find the halfling axe-thrower build perfectly acceptable.
The concept's fine, but the build isn't. They are two distinct things.
QuoteThat's what gear is for, really. So if the problem is "You don't hit often enough", you need magical weapons. If the problem is "you don't do enough damage", you need to start stocking up on things like Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Belt of Giant Strength, potions of Bulls strength (in the short term, this is your best solution). As a monk, you should also look into amulets of natural armor and possible some bracers and rings of protection.
It's worth pointing out that none of those strength-boosting items stack with one another. They're all enhancement bonuses. You can get, at most, a +6 to your damage on each axe, which is pretty pitiful by the time you'd get a +6 Belt of Giant's Strength. 2d6 of skirmish or sneak attack, available to a 3rd level Rogue, deal an average of 7 additional points of damage, one more than your 36,000 gp magic item will give you. By 5th level, a sneak attacking Rogue leaves your inhumanly strong high level Fighter in the dust in damage production. The problem of a Fighter's low damage production in melee combat is what Complete Warrior, Tome of Battle and PHB II were intended to address by adding feats, classes and martial maneuvers. A core-only Fighter does have a one option to counteract this, by jacking the number of attacks he gets through reach and tripping and AoO exploits, but this option is not available to a thrower.
Back to the original topic, but interwoven with the whole suboptimal character debate. . .
I've made a couple of fun builds lately. . .but I'm feel like they're rather sub-optimal, ant it's either a case of not knowing how to realize my charactervision mechanically, or just a character vision that;s just plain impoossible under D&D3. I fully invite anyone interested to suggest tweaks and options. The chars are built under purely core book options (almost).
So:
Gerad, Dwarven Paladin
I was inspired by the PHB text, "Dwarves are sometimes Paladins, but becoming a paladin may be hard on a dwarf because it means putting the duties of the paladin's life before duties to family, clan,and king." Which I took as a challenge. :D I turned stateddifficulty in playing the race/class into the character's central theme. The concept is, he's seen so much corruption and greed in the church and in Dwarven society as a whole, that he takes an oath to set things straight and restore honor to the Dwarven people. So, sanctioned by the church yet greeted with defensiveness and distrust, he travels the Dwarven lands, rooting out injustice both between Dwarves and toward others, and upholding the positive and honorable values of his culture. Oh, and he's from a well-off Dwarven family, so it's kind of like a Rockefeller heir becoming a hippie activist. :keke:
So what I did with him is, high Str, con and Cha (natch), and a Feat progression of Negotiatior, Power Attack, Improved Overrun, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Endurance, Diehard. Key skills are Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Knowledge: Religion. Intimidate too, but that's cross-class, so it's tough. For his primary weapon I concocted the "great Hammer," which is statwise a Greataxe except with Blugeoning damage. I was irked that there's no two-handed hammer in the book. so I made it so. My big inspiring image: imagine you're suddenly flat on your back, hardly aware of what hit you, and there's a thick, sinewy Dwarf towering above you (one of the only situations where they ever get to tower), hefting the hugest hammer you've ever seen and shouting "Stand down!"
Now, I think this build works pretty well, it's mainly skill points and the Improved Overrun. Negotiator I'm ambivalent on, on the one hand it fits the flavor of the character and it's nice to bump those two very key skills. On the other hand I'm wondering if I really need the bump, or if it'll do me enough good to justify it. It'd be nice to have Improved Disarm earlier. I'm really focussing on non-lethal ways of resolving conflicts (words if you'll listen, the hammer if you won't), and I'd really love to see how it works out.
Unfortunately the only DM I'm playing with that I'd consider running him under, is currently running a campaign that wouldn't really fit his backstory. :emot-sigh:
Frilii, Halfling Barbarian
This concept isn't nearly so involved at this point. I was futzing around in Heromachine (http://www.heromachine.com) the other day and ended up making a portrait of this little wild half-naked halfling girl. So the "must build female halfling barbarian!" urge was born,and would not rest until scores were rolled and feats assigned. I haven't decided if she's from a tribe of Feral halflings, or just "raised by wolves" (or goblins, or whatever) as it were. So, she's got a greataxe, and a feat progression of Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack. I wanted to fit Power Attack in there with the two-handed weapon and all, but it's tight as it is. There's a bit of a disconnect between concept and equipment, 'cause I had to give her Studded Leather for baseline survival purposes, when really she should have no armor. Ah well.
This one's more frustrating than the first; I have a distinct image of this plucky, brash, and fierce 3-foot-tall woman who's a dervish in battle, diving straight into the enemy horde in a heedless dance of battlelust, served by her very recklessness. Hence all the "run around in the midst of a lot of foes" feats. But it's a bit depressing that I have to get up to 9th level before I really start to cook, and the big money--Whirlwind Attack, ain't coming on 'till level 15. That's a frequent frustration for me with character builds--you often have to get halfway up the level scale before the character matches your concept.
Anyway. I don't own any non-core books, though I have access to friends whodo. Any propositions for pimping out this pair of persnickety protagonists? Is there a L33t Prestige Class just lurking about for either of these concepts? Any advice on how I could fine-tune even within the Core Book parameters? :emot-eng101:
Peace,
-Joel
You should concentrate on making the Dwarf Paladin a tank, and give him a weapon with the merciful special ability, rather than taking the improved disarm feat tree (which does nothing against humanoids with locked gauntlets or natural weapons, and requires you to put a 13+ in what should be a dump stat). You should try and convince your DM that your custom weapon is the holy weapon of a god that your paladin can worship, so that you can get into Pious Templar from Complete Divine. I'd go Paladin 6 / Pious Templar 10 / whatever 4
Featwise, I'd go:
Weapon Focus (Deity's Weapon) (1st)
Power Attack (3rd)
True Believer (6th)
Divine Vigor (9th) (Complete Warrior)
Weapon Specialisation (Deity's Weapon) (bonus Pious Templar feat 9th)
Improved Sunder (bonus Pious Templar feat 10th)
Combat Brute (12th) (Complete Warrior)
and so on.
A merciful weapon means all your damage is non-lethal if you want it to be, which means you can just pound your enemies into unconsciousness. Basically, this build is built around the idea of smashing into the enemy, banging them into unconsciousness, and soaking up hits. You want to use your (otherwise useless) turn attempts to power Divine Vigor for bonus HP and movement. You use that bonus movement to smash into the enemy and whomp them for tons of non-lethal. This build really comes together with Combat Brute, when you can smash enemy's weapons and then them, or Power Attack them for x3 damage.
Pious Templar gives you buffs that you can use to boost your combat performance, and basically lets you shrug off anything. At mid levels, you'll want Bless and Bull's Strength active, and later, Prayer and Holy Sword. If you're planning to play him after 12th, you'll want to continue to improve his damage dealing capabilities through feats, rather than adding more tactical options (you'll want magic items to do that).
Quote from: PseudoephedrineYou should concentrate on making the Dwarf Paladin a tank, and give him a weapon with the merciful special ability, rather than taking the improved disarm feat tree (which does nothing against humanoids with locked gauntlets or natural weapons, and requires you to put a 13+ in what should be a dump stat).
If you're still interested in taking a feat that deprives your opponent of his weapon, I'd suggest Improved Sunder rather than Improved Disarm. The advantage is that the prereq of IS is Power Attack, which a Dwarven Paladin should take anyway, and you no longer need an Int of 13+ for the Combat Expertise that Improved Disarm requires. A second benefit is that your two-handed hammer will give you a +4 to the sunder attack, on top of the +4 from the feat, making the success much more likely.
That said, later on gaining a merciful weapon is a great idea, and very much matches your character concept - being able to bludgeon someone into unconsiousness if they do not yield is a good one.
Thanks, guys. Improved Sunder: eeeeexcellent. Also, Merciful weapon sounds way cool. Actually, a blunt weapon is about the only case where I'd find Merciful anything but nonsensical (for the reasons I'm discussing in this thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4670)). I mean, stabbing you nonlethally? Magical or no, that's just silly.
But a Merciful Warhammer, awesome for sure. I'm already drooling.
The Pious Templar sounds intriguing. I'll have to snaga friend's C. Divine and look it over. Prestige classes often seem too wierdly specific to fit a char when I have a very singular concept (in this I sympathize with Ian), but that one sounds pretty solid. The only thing is, my Dwarf's deal is more about justice, not so much blindly following a god. But that would probably only be a problem with certain DMs. And it depends on exactly how the Pious Templar is presented.
Also, I'll have to see how Holy Vigor works. Hell, extra movement's good for a Dwarf any which way. And you're damn right, I need some alternate use for those turn attempts, unless all the corruption Gerad roots out turns out to be caused by Dwarven Necromancers. ;)
So, any thoughts on my cute li'l berzerker hobbit? My main gripe is feat slowness. . .I could always multi a couple levels in Fighter,but then there's the multiclass penalty. Though someone was just telling me they think there's a variant halfling out there (a "savage halfling" or some such, I'd imagine) whose favored class IS Barbarian. That true?
Thanks!
Peace,
-Joel