So there's a few of you sitting around, you've had some good food and somebody says: "What about a quick game of Ticket to Ride?"
People say yes, sure, somebody tries to stick out for Axis and Allies but gets overruled, and you start playing. Too easy!
But what about if somebody said: "What about a quick game of InSpectres?"
Which of the Forgista games do you find most suitable for casual pick-up play? Which could you whip out for a general game-friendly audience?
In that scenario I'd be happy for someone to pitch InSpectres - but I don't know if it would win out over Ticket to Ride. :-)
I dunno. I mean if it was supposed to be a quick oneoff and everyone was a gamer, I'd say something like Whispering Vault. Or maybe if I wanted to run a fantasy thing it would be Broadsword.
Tone isn't really a problem because I would use OtE to whip up something scary or creepy. Maybe something everyone could get into fairly quicky like Star Wars powered by RISUS. Gotta a lot of options going the Trad way.
The problem is I not aware of any Forge games that I could just run off the cuff. I mean is WUSHU, Forgey ?
Hmm, you got any suggestions other than InSpectres ? Maybe some other quick and dirty Forgey games.
Regards,
David R
I like the theme of InSpectres, I guess it would depend on the people in the group. I imagine it would go over a lot better for people who are really into improv storytelling and 1st person character acting / roleplaying? That sort of thing can be a bit intimidating to a lot of casual gamers.
I dunno, if it was supposed to be this quick casual thing, I'm sure there would be a lot of improv from all sides. IMO, it's all about getting everyone on the same page, fast, the rules not getting in the way and begin playing almost, right away.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;290945Tone isn't really a problem because I would use OtE to whip up something scary or creepy.
Regards,
David R
What is OtE?
Over the Edge.
Regards,
David R
Over the Edge isn't a Forge game, though. Its an RPG.
The one game that came out of the Forge movement that I actually ended up liking was OctaNe, and I'd recommend that one for this purpose. With a tiny bit of tweaking you can basically run it as an RPG, and it has a kickass setting and everything.
RPGPundit
Quote from: droog;290923Which of the Forgista games do you find most suitable for casual pick-up play? Which could you whip out for a general game-friendly audience?
Generally speaking, a pick-up game should have a familiar background, jump immediately into action, and have low mechanical complexity. I found that the Parlor LARP system and setup is excellent for this. Within tabletop I've done fairly well with Faery's Tale, Monster Island, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Spirit of the Century, Truth & Justice, and Amber -- for those into the source material.
Among Forge-associated games, the first I would try would be A Thousand and One Nights -- and I'd consider Best Friends and the Shab-al-Hiri Roach.
I've always thought My Life With Master could work well in this way as it has a very defined end game. Most RPGs end by consent - My Life With Master has a real end, just a like a boardgame. It also has a rigorous turn sequence that can be more or less strictly applied, plus a very easy background.
Ned
Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;291018I've always thought My Life With Master could work well in this way as it has a very defined end game. Most RPGs end by consent - My Life With Master has a real end, just a like a boardgame. It also has a rigorous turn sequence that can be more or less strictly applied, plus a very easy background.
Ned
That was the one that immediately leapt to my mind, when I read the OP.
I find it interesting that you should draw up this comparison, because, fairly early on in the "indie"/Forge game movement, I observed that many of the games seemed to be board games with talkie, thespy elements added for entertainment value -- one-session scenario play, specific player goals, specific mechanics for obtaining those goals and victory conditions. I actually approve of this sort of thing, treating them as a subset of roleplaying games as an overarching category. Sadly, many of the themes chosen for these games have been less than appealing.
To my eye, the most complete and satisfying of this style of game has been The Mountain Witch. In addition to the appeal of the setting (Sengoku period Japan, Sergio Leone/Kurosawa-styled internal conflict within a group), it hits all the points I cited above -- single-scenario play, clear player goals and victory conditions, specific mechanics for clearly achieving those goals and conditions.
The downside of games such as these, of course, is overcoming the hesitance that many casual gamers have to getting all thespy in front of their friends and families. There's a reason why board games, with much less emotional investment and risk, are more popular.
!i!
Quote from: RPGPundit;290981The one game that came out of the Forge movement that I actually ended up liking was OctaNe...
Was it really part of the Forge movement, though? I recall Jared putting it out before the Forge really got any traction or chatter. I suspect, if anything, Jared's existing designs, like
OctaNe and
InSpectres, were part of what drew him and Edwards together.
I could very well be wrong, of course. I just remember being aware of a number of crafty little indie games (including Edwards'
Sorcerer) long before I was aware of The Forge.
!i!
Quote from: Ian Absentia;291040Was it really part of the Forge movement, though? I recall Jared putting it out before the Forge really got any traction or chatter. I suspect, if anything, Jared's existing designs, like OctaNe and InSpectres, were part of what drew him and Edwards together.
I could very well be wrong, of course. I just remember being aware of a number of crafty little indie games (including Edwards' Sorcerer) long before I was aware of The Forge.
!i!
I think you're right, I think it predates it, I don't honestly think Jared is a Forgey designer.
Pundy may not know the history, but it could be a factor in why he's more sympathetic to Jared's work, it's not from the same intellectual wellspring as the stuff that irritates him.
All of the descriptions I've read of Mountain Witch make it sound like a board game. I'd play it if this were true.
Quote from: The Shaman;291210All of the descriptions I've read of Mountain Witch make it sound like a board game. I'd play it if this were true.
But you wouldn't if it bills itself as a roleplaying game?
!i!
Quote from: Ian Absentia;291226But you wouldn't if it bills itself as a roleplaying game?
It sounds more like an adventure than a complete roleplaying game.
I don't mind replaying board games, but replaying the same roleplaying adventure over and over again doesn't appeal to me.
Fair enough. It actually tends to be billed as something like "an adventure complete with rules", which is, in fact, what it is.
!i!
A lot of the shared narrative stuff makes me think of Jenga.
Quote from: The Shaman;291232I don't mind replaying board games, but replaying the same roleplaying adventure over and over again doesn't appeal to me.
I wonder how many times I've run
Keep on the Borderlands... just a thought.
Quote from: droog;291248I wonder how many times I've run Keep on the Borderlands... just a thought.
I've run my favourite module a few times - but never more than once for the same group of players.
Quote from: Stuart;291252I've run my favourite module a few times - but never more than once for the same group of players.
Exactly! Your keen mind deduces the possibilities, here, Watson.
Mind you, there are people who play through the same module more than once. And MW depends quite highly on the actions of the PCs, so it's unlikely to be the same twice.
Quote from: Ian Absentia;291237Fair enough. It actually tends to be billed as something like "an adventure complete with rules", which is, in fact, what it is.
Hence the boardgame connection for me.
Quote from: droog;291248I wonder how many times I've run Keep on the Borderlands... just a thought.
I think of
KotB as a mini-setting, rather than an adventure
per se.
Along similar lines, I could probably get more or less unlimited roleplaying enjoyment out of
Vault of the Drow.
The repetitive structure in a lot of storygames doesn't bother me that much. A dungeoncrawl is a pretty repetitive structure on its surface, just like Mormon cowboys with moral dilemmas.
I'd still pick Ticket to Ride over Dogs in the Vineyard. :)
Thanks for repeating that point, Stuart. I'm sure there are people that missed it the first time.
Quote from: Balbinus;291187I think you're right, I think it predates it, I don't honestly think Jared is a Forgey designer.
Pundy may not know the history, but it could be a factor in why he's more sympathetic to Jared's work, it's not from the same intellectual wellspring as the stuff that irritates him.
That seems plausible, yes.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;291018I've always thought My Life With Master could work well in this way as it has a very defined end game. Most RPGs end by consent - My Life With Master has a real end, just a like a boardgame. It also has a rigorous turn sequence that can be more or less strictly applied, plus a very easy background.
It wouldn't be difficult at all to put in an actual suitably gothic board, too, perhaps with the Demesne at one end and the Town at the other... And you could include a set of eight ready-made Masters to cover all the Aspect and Type combinations, a range of Minions to choose from, and a small deck of "More Than Human" and "Less Than Human" cards. And of course, lots and lots of tokens for Weariness, Self-Loathing and Love.
Sorry for not being quite on topic. Years ago, I wrote a board game for FFE based on a group of annoying old lady detectives trying to outdo each other, framing each other and trying to bump each other off. Kind of a psychotic version of Cleudo with a twist of bastardry (in the true sense of that term) for good measure. I still chuckle at the thought of Angela Landsbury, Miss Marple and an old bag in a wheelchair getting into a knife fight. Cue the ST:TOS-style mood music.
My understanding of story games is limited, but it would probably make a workable story game if I put my mind to it.
Not going to happen though. Got other stuff to do first ;)
Craig J. Brain
Quote from: GrimGent;291302It wouldn't be difficult at all to put in an actual suitably gothic board, too, perhaps with the Demesne at one end and the Town at the other... And you could include a set of eight ready-made Masters to cover all the Aspect and Type combinations, a range of Minions to choose from, and a small deck of "More Than Human" and "Less Than Human" cards. And of course, lots and lots of tokens for Weariness, Self-Loathing and Love.
Oh, nice!
Ned
Quote from: droog;291263Thanks for repeating that point, Stuart. I'm sure there are people that missed it the first time.
It gets back to your original point:
Quote from: droogSo there's a few of you sitting around, you've had some good food and somebody says: "What about a quick game of Ticket to Ride?"
People say yes, sure, somebody tries to stick out for Axis and Allies but gets overruled, and you start playing. Too easy!
But what about if somebody said: "What about a quick game of InSpectres?"
If people are pitching Ticket to Ride and Axis and Allies, I don't think they're likely to go YEAH! STORYGAMES!
Maybe if people were thinking of something like How to Host a Murder Mystery or some sort of Acting / Parlour game then a Storygame would be a good alternative. I don't think people looking for an actual boardgame would be happy with most Storygames.
Don't be a doofus, Stuart. That isn't the question. The question is about how various story games play as quick pick-ups. Your preferences, while fascinating, aren't the issue.
Droog, the question you asked was:
Quote from: droogWhich of the Forgista games do you find most suitable for casual pick-up play? Which could you whip out for a general game-friendly audience?
I don't think you could pull out ANY storygame for a "general game-friendly audience" who is pitching things like Ticket to Ride or Axis & Allies.
If the group was really into RPGs in a certain style, then sure. If they're casual gamers who're into boardgames? No.
That's not about my preferences. You could pitch InSpectres to me and I'd definitely try it out. I think it might be fun. My friends who're more into boardgames than RPGs? There's just no way they'd be into it.
Aaaanyway, my thoughts are that you're looking for games that can be literally picked up and played. Hence InSpectres or My Life with Master, for which the GM has no prep work. I'm also looking at In a Wicked Age and It Was a Mutual Decision.
All of these games share a kind of group brainstorm to kick things off and play is based entirely on the PCs' actions and motivations. It's also possible to do a full game of any of them in an evening.
I'd like to hear from people who've suggested more traditional RPG options. How would you capture these same qualities?
Well I mentioned Broadsword earlier : http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13301.phtml it's supposed to be "Barbarian Fantasy" but you could probably run it in a variety of ways. I've played it a couple of times and always, it started of as a group discussion spur of the moment thing. However we are talking about gamers here....I doubt I'd introduce a nongamer to rpgs this way unless they seemed really interested.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: droog;291325Aaaanyway, my thoughts are that you're looking for games that can be literally picked up and played. Hence InSpectres or My Life with Master, for which the GM has no prep work. I'm also looking at In a Wicked Age and It Was a Mutual Decision.
All of these games share a kind of group brainstorm to kick things off and play is based entirely on the PCs' actions and motivations. It's also possible to do a full game of any of them in an evening.
I'd like to hear from people who've suggested more traditional RPG options. How would you capture these same qualities?
Prince Valiant, for example. It has some rules for shared narration that are very brainstormy, chargen is a breeze, and the book has like 20 pregen adventures 1 - 2 pages long, that you can have previously photocopied and assigned at random. Also, is from Greg Stafford, which makes it cooler :D
Quote from: droog;290923Which could you whip out for a general game-friendly audience?
None. You have two major disads.
1) Time - Even forgie RPGs rarely can be completed from chargen to end scene in 60-90 minutes - especially if you need to explain the rules. Ticket to Ride, Dominion, Pandemic, Settlers and dozens more boardgames can finish in that time frame. Non-RPG gamers generally think of games as short activities.
2) Narrative Storytelling is Alien - reactive roleplay in a traditional RPG is too much for most people, asking more than that limits your audience even further. Many popular boardgames have surprisingly little interaction with other players - for instance, Ticket to Ride and Dominion could be played without the players ever speaking to each other.
If I had a 90 minute window with RPG gamers, I would probably use RISUS because chargen and rules explanation is 5 minutes or less. But I doubt that would not work with non-RPG gamers.
Can you guys stop questioning the premise of the question? I assure you that I have done this very thing using Nicotine Girls.
I'm sorry, droog. That claim defies common sense. Our speculation prohibits any concession on this matter.
!i!
Speculate away, then, you cursed Swine.
For more anecdotal evidence you can ignore, I'll also mention that I got a game of InSpectres done in about 90-120 minutes with RPGers (I didn't look closely at the time).
If you have a "general game-friendly audience" that isn't into Storytelling games and RPGs (or at least hasn't let you know they're interested in them) and they're pitching games like Ticket to Ride and Axis & Allies... good luck to you if you suggest Nicotine Girls. :)
Quotenicotine girls (http://www.halfmeme.com/nicotinegirls.html) is a roleplaying game of teenage, lower-income girls looking for happiness.
I'd go with The Shab-al-Hiri Roach (http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/index.php?game=roach) or InSpectres (http://www.memento-mori.com/inspectres/) instead.
Edit: If someone pitches Bella Sara (http://www.bellasara.com/index_bs.aspx) then you could confidently pitch Nicotine Girls as an alternative. ;-)
Quote from: droog;291457For more anecdotal evidence you can ignore, I'll also mention that I got a game of InSpectres done in about 90-120 minutes with RPGers...
That is flatly preposterous. Get thee behind me, Satan.
!i!
Quote from: jhkim;290993Shab-al-Hiri Roach.
This is the only one I'd suggest. MLwM comes to mind but it's too long. Many of the others that come to mind are too angsty. The short form is better served by humor and even gonzo. There's a reason there's such a thing as a comedy variety show (well, nowadays it's mainly SNL but it proves the point in itself), while short-form drama's always been a hard-sell.
IMO Ghostbusters was the bestest pick up and run game to have ever existed. I have played that game with groups of peeps as small as two and as big as 10. its absolutely great and everyone knows the movies so they can jump right into the game.
Interesting you should mention that. InSpectres is Jared Sorensen's version of Ghostbusters. It has several features that I feel make it easier for stone-cold pick-up play (and therefore more like a simple board game):
1. No GM prep.
2. Distributed narrative authority.
3. Explicit meta-game mechanics.
I have to admit I'm warming up to the idea of giving InSpectres a try.
I wonder if InSpectres would play more like Ghostbusters or SOS Fantome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jScICEXD4Q)?
I still think the "Once Upon a Time" card game is the best story game that isn't generally recognised as a story game. It's all purely about telling a story, and it's your own story-weaving skills that determine your chances of winning, it's good and quick, it uses a genre which requires no introduction, and all it requires is an audience which is open to a bit of improv - and even then, it's third-person storytelling rather than first-person acting, which some may find less embarrassing.
The only thing it lacks is anything resembling an RPG element. Which is why it's the purest story game of all, to my mind - it's designed from the ground up as a story game, rather than trying to steer games based on different priorities into storygame territory.
Quote from: Stuart;292154I wonder if InSpectres would play more like Ghostbusters or SOS Fantome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jScICEXD4Q)?
That was pretty funny.
In my experience, it's probably a bit of both.