Not saying I'd do it right away, but I'm pondering the possibility of playing some 40K wargame. So what would you start with? The WH 40K Rulebook (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440162a&prodId=prod1400018) or the Assault on Black Reach boxed set (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440162a&prodId=prod1570027), and/or something else entirely?
How does one start in the 40K hobby?
Can you actually get some skirmish game going without having to build huge thousand dollars armies in the process?
Quote from: Benoist;412562Not saying I'd do it right away, but I'm pondering the possibility of playing some 40K wargame. So what would you start with? The WH 40K Rulebook (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440162a&prodId=prod1400018) or the Assault on Black Reach boxed set (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440162a&prodId=prod1570027), and/or something else entirely?
How does one start in the 40K hobby?
Can you actually get some skirmish game going without having to build huge thousand dollars armies in the process?
Without a doubt go Assault on Black Reach. The figures aren't as poseable as the normal ones, but they are easy to put together. There's no better cost-effective way to get started.
When it comes to expanding your army, go for Battleforce boxed sets. If you think you will use the models provided, Battleforces are the second most economical way to get going.
As for the rest Ebay is your friend, be patient. Ridiculous deals fall through the cracks all the time.
AoBR will get you in the 500pt range, which is where all new players start.
Also AoBR includes a mini version of the main book, rules only.
Quote from: Benoist;412562Not saying I'd do it right away, but I'm pondering the possibility of playing some 40K wargame. So what would you start with? The WH 40K Rulebook (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440162a&prodId=prod1400018) or the Assault on Black Reach boxed set (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440162a&prodId=prod1570027), and/or something else entirely?
How does one start in the 40K hobby?
Can you actually get some skirmish game going without having to build huge thousand dollars armies in the process?
Assault on Black Reach is really good value for its cost, especially if you want to play either space marines or orks. I'd recommend picking it up with some paints, primer, glue and brushes and running through it with a friend to see if it's for you.
Once you do that, it's time to pick an army. You can usually browse through the codices at stores, and GW retail staff is pretty well trained in introducing new people to the hobby. If you have an idea of what kinds of tactics you like, you can ask around either here or on a 40K forum and get a pretty clear idea of which army is for you.
For example, I like lots of special and heavy weapons, and most of my army sitting back pummeling the enemy while elite squads go wreaking havoc in their rear, so I play an Imperial Guard army (the 17th Terrans aka "the Fearless 17th") with lots of storm troopers, veterans, and heavy weapons squads led by a commissar.
Once you've got an army, buy the codex and plan out a 1000 pt. army. Most games are 1000 pts., 1500 pts., or 2000 pts. per side. Just so you're aware, the rule for store / tournament play is that each mini has to have at least three colours on it, not counting the base.
Then it's just buying and painting and tinkering with the army list. It's always more cost effective to buy the battleforce box than individual minis or squads. There's a huge secondary market online for painted minis so many hard-core players and collectors buy the battleforce, paint everything, and only keep the units they actually want, selling the rest to fund the habit.
Black Reach seconded. It contains all the rules you need to play in digest size. The rule book contains more fluff, painting guides, etc.
Do you like to build / paint minis?
I have no mad minis skillz so I buy mine off eBay and occassional commission custom work. It shocking how often you can get really great deals of eBay - especially if you don't care about getting figs from the current edition. I play Tyranid and the old "beakie" Space Marines (homebrew chapter).
The Kill Team rules are cool and very popular. As a Mordheim fan, prefer small squad skirmish games.
But before getting into 40k, do check out AT-43 - especially if you haven't jumped into the minis / wargame world before.
Lots of useful advice. Thanks guys.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;412577If you have an idea of what kinds of tactics you like, you can ask around either here or on a 40K forum and get a pretty clear idea of which army is for you.
OK. What if I want say... to soften up targets with artillery/heavy weapons and then finish the job with moderately tough melee units?
Quote from: Spinachcat;412599Do you like to build / paint minis?
Yeah. That's not a problem. :)
Quote from: Spinachcat;412599I have no mad minis skillz so I buy mine off eBay and occassional commission custom work. It shocking how often you can get really great deals of eBay - especially if you don't care about getting figs from the current edition. (...)
But before getting into 40k, do check out AT-43 - especially if you haven't jumped into the minis / wargame world before.
I've looked at AT-43 before and it does look neat.
As for eBay, I haven't even had a look yet. Seems to be popular among players on the net.
I'm certainly going to check that out.
Quote from: Benoist;412562Not saying I'd do it right away, but I'm pondering the possibility of playing some 40K wargame. So what would you start with? The WH 40K Rulebook (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440162a&prodId=prod1400018) or the Assault on Black Reach boxed set (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440162a&prodId=prod1570027), and/or something else entirely?
How does one start in the 40K hobby?
Can you actually get some skirmish game going without having to build huge thousand dollars armies in the process?
My advice would be not listen to the people that work in GW shops.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;412624My advice would be not listen to the people that work in GW shops.
Someone's working in GW shops here? :huhsign:
Quote from: Benoist;412626Someone's working in GW shops here? :huhsign:
I'm not talking about this thread. I'm talking about the staff whose only concern is how much they can gouge from you rather than what's in your best interests. Unfortunately that's how GW staff their shops.
My personal advice would be to avoid like the plague unless you like spending lots of money and enjoy gluing and painting.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;412630I'm not talking about this thread. I'm talking about the staff whose only concern is how much they can gouge from you rather than what's in your best interests. Unfortunately that's how GW staff their shops.
My personal advice would be to avoid like the plague unless you like spending lots of money and enjoy gluing and painting.
Oh OK. That's what I thought at first.
Yeah, I definitely would not buy into the GW hype in any case. I have an RPG hobby already, and I'm thinking of 40K as a game to play on the side, get minis to play the wargamer and RPGs at the same time (maybe with some Dwarven Forge Sci-Fi sets way wayyy down the road), that sort of thing. That's why I was asking if skirmishes with relatively few units would be entertaining, as opposed to thousand-dollars armies I wouldn't be willing to invest in.
How hard is it to invent completely new/original units in 40K?
Come up with say, a Cookie Monster fig, make up stats for it, and give it a value in Army Points?
Most games I play tend to run in the 1000-1500 point range, and you'll get about 500 pts of two different armies in Black Reach. Smaller games are definitely fulfilling, but watch what units your opponents bring in smaller games. It would be unsporting to bring a Vindicator or Tervigon in a game of less than around 1000 pts. Hell it's almost unsporting then.
You'll be starting with Space Marines and Orks, then - if you get Black Reach. They are something every 40k player needs, as they exemplify two different common tactics ('shooty' and 'close combat' respectively). There are a ton of awesome new kits for both armies that should make getting to 1000pts for both armies quite easy and cheap.
What vets will be asking is what chapter / tribe you are running with each army. Get the Codex for Orks, and then find a Space Marine Codex you like. There are a ton: Codex Space Marines (a.k.a. vanilla / homebrew marines) if you want to go with the Codex Astartes. The Non-Codex chapters are all cool, but have special rules that go along with each of them, i.e. the Black Templars hate witches and have no psykers, the Space Wolves have different basic units, the Blood Angels go crazy and flip out into Death Company, the Dark Angels are really old etc.
After you've built up 1000 pts of each army, and you've played a lot of games with your own forces (and against other 40k folk in your community assuming you're not building your 40k in secrecy and silence in the vacuum of space) then you'll know if you're a GW hobbyist. After that, it's a short step to Warhammer Fantasy.
But then you have to consider - if you plan on playing the RPG's, isn't it best to have miniatures? Many 40k minis can be used not only for 40k, but also Necromunda (the skirmish game) and any of the RPG's. The same can be said of Warhammer Fantasy, Mordheim and any of the editions of WFRP.
Anyways, glad to hear you're going to at least try it.
Try not to balk at the huge prices - tends to keep the riff-raff out. But then, I've seen you have some Dwarven Forge stuff - and every GW hobbyist I know balks at those prices!
As for making units up, well that's a different thing. In your home games, you can do whatever the hell you want. I regularly use Reaper minis in my games of Mordheim and Necromunda, even used minis from other lines to stand in where I didn't like the GW range (like Vampires). Making up a unit is pretty much not happening, but if you just call it something that already exists and give it those stats, there's not much of an issue (beyond the "proxy" issue - competitive opponents may or may not like this move). Like your cookie monster counts as a Warboss or Nob with a Power Fist and Slugga, but what it really is is a model of the Cookie Monster smashing things and throwing mono-molecular chocolate chips. I wouldn't have a problem with that, but my Chaos Space Marines might!
Quote from: Benoist;412620Yeah. That's not a problem. :)
I've looked at AT-43 before and it does look neat.
Just so you know:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2010/10/28/40457
It looks as though the company that makes at-43 is folding. They're in talks to save their games, but who knows how that will pan out.
I got my GW Vostroyan Soldiers in today! Let me tell you what I have planned for them, so you can see some of the stuff that it's totally encouraged by the texts themselves. The idea is to get creative with your models within the universe.
So I got two blisters of Vostroyan Troopers (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://guidestobuy.com/images/actionfigure/upload//images/I/41Y3pQ3ClfL.jpg&imgrefurl=http://actionfigure.guidestobuy.com/games-workshop-action-figure/games-workshop-imperial-guard-vostroyan-trooper-blister/&usg=__0gKq4eHQJ0CGeBZMFx7fNRoXOQc=&h=231&w=500&sz=25&hl=en&start=0&sig2=47c83hKN2TwAxZhiZntd1A&zoom=1&tbnid=MSZf-SVycCs6hM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=200&ei=Qv3KTLaaJIP78Aa5rdyCAQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dvostroyan%2Btroopers%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D630%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=314&vpy=106&dur=3020&hovh=152&hovw=331&tx=153&ty=93&oei=Qv3KTLaaJIP78Aa5rdyCAQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0) from GW today. There are 6 models and 6 different poses, all armed with lasguns. However, they aren't for an Imperial Guard army, as I have a ton of Cadians and Catachans around for that. I loved the models and wanted to use them, so voila!
House Semetov!
These miniatures will represent various members of the Semetov House Guard, for my new Dark Heresy campaign that will start this weekend. I got the figs in, and I'll be painting a few up today. The rpg campaign is all about betrayal and other stuff at the top levels of the merchant house and how the pc's are called in to investigate allegations of heresy among the ruling house - House Semetov.
But wait, there's more!
My turn at the helm of my club's rpg gaming will only run about 10-12 weeks (I get the Fall campaign), so what am I going to do with 80 bones worth of minis that have no army to belong to?
Necromunda! While ordering the miniatures, I actually ordered what I would need to run the Vostroyan squad as an "Unknown House" in Necromunda. I've got a few extra swords with scabbards to glue on these minis (because I wanted them to have swords, dammit) and they will be a 1500 credit gang - half again what you need at the beginning of a Necromunda campaign!
So, I have my minis for House Semetov the RPG and House Semetov the Necromunda gang. If I really want to, I can devise a way to use them in normal games of 40k in special scenarios or just to supplement my Imperial Guard as Veteran or Grenadier units.
Quote from: Benoist;412633Oh OK. That's what I thought at first.
Yeah, I definitely would not buy into the GW hype in any case. I have an RPG hobby already, and I'm thinking of 40K as a game to play on the side, get minis to play the wargamer and RPGs at the same time (maybe with some Dwarven Forge Sci-Fi sets way wayyy down the road), that sort of thing. That's why I was asking if skirmishes with relatively few units would be entertaining, as opposed to thousand-dollars armies I wouldn't be willing to invest in.
You could look at an alternative like No Limits:
http://wargamesunlimited.net/nolimits/index.html
The rules are free and contain rules for statting and assigning point costs to whatever minis you like. I question how well balanced the forces you can make are in comparison to 40k, but you have a lot of flexibility to work up your own races and backgrouns. The system has worked well for me for skirmish sized games.
Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;412659Just so you know:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2010/10/28/40457
It looks as though the company that makes at-43 is folding. They're in talks to save their games, but who knows how that will pan out.
FUCK NO !!! :jaw-dropping:
I LOVE Rackham's Confrontation miniatures!
Quote from: Blackhand;412655As for making units up, well that's a different thing. In your home games, you can do whatever the hell you want.
Just so you guys know, home play was implied. If I play 40K, that'd be with friends around here, not in a game store or official tournament or anything like that.
Quote from: Blackhand;412660Necromunda! While ordering the miniatures, I actually ordered what I would need to run the Vostroyan squad as an "Unknown House" in Necromunda. I've got a few extra swords with scabbards to glue on these minis (because I wanted them to have swords, dammit) and they will be a 1500 credit gang - half again what you need at the beginning of a Necromunda campaign!
So, I have my minis for House Semetov the RPG and House Semetov the Necromunda gang. If I really want to, I can devise a way to use them in normal games of 40k in special scenarios or just to supplement my Imperial Guard as Veteran or Grenadier units.
That does sound very cool (neat miniatures for House Semetov too! Thumbs up). Does Necromunda take place in the 40K universe also, or is it just related on a game system point of view via the 2nd edition of 40K?
Can you use say Space Marines in Necromunda? (thinking of home play here)
Can you play an RPG using Necromunda rules for tactical battles?
Quote from: Benoist;412619Lots of useful advice. Thanks guys.
OK. What if I want say... to soften up targets with artillery/heavy weapons and then finish the job with moderately tough melee units?
Hah, that's pretty much almost any 40K army. Check out orks and space marines, since they both do it well. SMs means lots of characters, assault marines and devastator squads; orks means a giant mob of boyz advancing while crazy rockets and shit fly overhead into your enemies.
I really like the look of SMs. Maybe that's what I should go for. Are there important differences between the types of Space Marines factions? Blood Angels vs Space Marines vs Wolves vs Chaos SMs vs... am I forgetting any?
Quote from: Benoist;412674That does sound very cool (neat miniatures for House Semetov too! Thumbs up). Does Necromunda take place in the 40K universe also, or is it just related on a game system point of view via the 2nd edition of 40K?
Can you use say Space Marines in Necromunda? (thinking of home play here)
Can you play an RPG using Necromunda rules for tactical battles?
Necromunda is a hive world in the Imperium, and the default setting for the skirmish game (though our next game will be on "New Waco"). Almost all the Necromunda material is available for free from the Specialist Games website here (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480009a&categoryId=1100011§ion=&aId=5300010).
It's not really designed for space marines or some of the crazier races, but the rules meat is good and it wouldn't take much work to drum up a gang list for any of the 40k armies. Probably be limited to two or three marines for a 1000 creds though! Necromunda is basically the same system as 40k, so you'll notice that almost all the games are basically translatable to one another (even the RPG).
It really is a setting that you can a do a lot with. And lots of minis also!
Quote from: Benoist;412677I really like the look of SMs. Maybe that's what I should go for. Are there important differences between the types of Space Marines factions? Blood Angels vs Space Marines vs Wolves vs Chaos SMs vs... am I forgetting any?
Yeah. The two big divisions are between Chaos vs. Loyalist, and within Loyalist, whether Codex or non-Codex.
Chaos SMs are light on artillery, but have good melee units and good heavy weapons. They tend to be one of the smallest armies in the game when I last was playing against them, so every lost unit really hurts. Their characters are about as dangerous as tactical nuclear weapons.
Codex SMs are "vanilla", and are the baseline everyone else deviates from. They're well balanced, tough, and tend not to require too many models (compared to a horde army). They're the beginner army for most people, and I think they're well-built to accomplish that. They're your Imperial Fists, your Ultramarines, etc.
Non-codex SMs are your Blood Angels, Black Templars, Space Wolves, etc. they're your "special snowflake" armies. They all have special characters you can pick if ubertwink special characters sounds like fun. In all three cases, they bulk up the assault aspect of the chapter.
Space wolves have different units than codex chapters, with an emphasis on assaulting, fast attacking and melee combat at the expense of heavy equipment (though they do get some). Playing SW is fairly different from codex SMs. You're mainly dealing with small numbers of highly elite units here, even by the standards of SMs. They seem to play somewhat similarly to Chaos SMs, and I've read a few stories of people using the Space Wolves codex to create a Chaos SM army.
Blood Angels have the possibility of going batshit and can get Death Company, who are good assault troops. Otherwise they're the closest to codex marines.
Black Templars have a totally different organisation than codex marines, are extremely assault oriented, and basically focus on putting out a big horde of marines to swarm your enemy with in hand to hand. It's not a huge horde (sez this IG player), but it's an incredibly tough, almost inexorable, horde. Also, no psykers and some cool special gear.
I have a Chaos Space Marine artillery army. It stars 3 Vindicators and a ton of heavy weapons in squads. Any army can do pretty much any schtick. You can even do shooty orks and shooty 'nids.
Just depends on what units you like. Like the look of the Blood Angels but don't really care for assault squads? How about 3 Devastator Squads and some terminators, or maybe a land raider and 2 baal predators?
My buddy has a tyranid army he's just finished up, and goes on and on about how hand to hand with tyranids is for the win. I have sworn to bring him to justice! I will build a tyranid army with so many heavy guns after they are finished vomiting all over his hordes of gaunts I'll be able to sit back across the table and lob stuff until his tervigon dies of aids. Can you say: twin linked Heavy Venom Cannon on a harpy??
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;412701Codex SMs are "vanilla", and are the baseline everyone else deviates from.
What do you call "Codex" armies and "Non-Codex" armies? Are these armies using the baseline provided in the books of the same names, involving the battleforce sets or something else?
Quote from: Benoist;412712What do you call "Codex" armies and "Non-Codex" armies? Are these armies using the baseline provided in the books of the same names, involving the battleforce sets or something else?
Uhh...this one's kinda silly so bear with us.
The Codex in one sense is the army's book. Thus Codex: Space Marines, the book you buy from GW with your army's rules and stuff inside.
What we refer to as "Codex chapters" (i.e. vanilla marines) are marines whose chapters follow the tenets of the "fictional" Codex Astartes, the space marine bible of ass-kicking. Imperial Fists and Ultramarines are well known examples of Codex chapters.
Non-Codex chapters are those who do not follow the Codex Astartes closely, or at all. Non-Codex marines are traditionally represented by the chapter Codex, such as Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Black Templars. However, it should be noted you can use any of the actual published Codeci, including Codex: Space Marines, to create a non-codex army.
For instance, you have Codex: Space Marines. You feel your chapter is really old and should have lots of dreadnoughts and terminators. Boom. Load up on those units, name your chapter "Teh Rly FuNkY DoOdz" and paint them whatever colors you want, like teal and magenta.
Your first opponent, Some Guy asks "Who are those teal and magenta funky dudes across the table from me?" and then you tell him about your dudes are totally non-codex due to awesomeness, and how they partied across the galaxy to kick his ass today. He then asks which codex you'll be using, to which you reply "Codex: Space Marines" or whichever one. He goes "that's cool" and tells you about his eldar, the Space Elf Alliance.
That's how innovation goes in the 41st millenium.
Quote from: Benoist;412712What do you call "Codex" armies and "Non-Codex" armies? Are these armies using the baseline provided in the books of the same names, involving the battleforce sets or something else?
No, I think your confusion stems from GWs use of the word Codex to describe not only their army books but also to describe the in game tactics and organization doctrine of the space marines. Those that adhere most closely to the Codex Astartes are "Codex" chapters (Ultramines and Crimson Fists for example), versus non-codex like the Space Wolves and Blood Angles. Codex and non-Codex are only used to describe loyalist marine chapters.
If you've got your heart set on 40k - that's fine, it's a good game for what it does. Namely move large numbers of figures around a board.
However if you are looking for something a little more skirmish level, with more varied play and an equally rich theme I'll heartily recommend
Malifaux (http://wyrd-games.net/). It's character level driven skirmishes that uses a card game for the randomization and special actions. So good.
Bear with me guys. Complete 40K noob here. So when you say "I'm using my non-Codex Pigs in Space Chapter, based on the Space Marines Codex", you basically mean that you started from vanilla space marines and went custom on the actual composition of your army, correct?
Quote from: kryyst;412717However if you are looking for something a little more skirmish level, with more varied play and an equally rich theme I'll heartily recommend Malifaux (http://wyrd-games.net/).
I'm always open to suggestions. :)
Quote from: Benoist;412718Bear with me guys. Complete 40K noob here. So when you say "I'm using my non-Codex Pigs in Space Chapter, based on the Space Marines Codex", you basically mean that you started from vanilla space marines and went custom on the actual composition of your army, correct?
Kinda/Sorta. You have the basic idea within the context of using the army lists; its more complicated within the setting background as far as Codex and Non-Codex armies. The Space Wolves, for example, rejected Roboute Guilleman's re-organization completely when it was introduced. Their org chart is much differenrt from other marines. One result of this is that the Space Wolves are more numerous than other chapters. Others deviated away from the codex to one degree or another over time.
Codex definition one exists outside the setting itself. Basically, which rulebook was your army made from?
I could put down a group of all melee vikings representing a feral world army, my opponent needs to know I'm using the Codex:Orks rules.
In this definition there are a few different set of Space Marine rules
Codex: Space Marines, usually called "vanilla"
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Black Templars
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex definition two exists inside the game. There is a massive tome called the Codex Astartes that contains the collected military strategies of the Space Marines as gathered by Rouboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines. This Codex details, among other things, organizational limits and military strategies.
Here's where they merge...
A "Codex Chapter" is a chapter that in the setting follows the traditions of the Codex Astartes very closely. A "Non-Codex Chapter" introduces a decent amount of changes.
Generally speaking, if I'm using the rules as presented in the Codex: SPace Marines, then I'm using a "Codex Chapter". If I'm using the rules as presented in one of the other gamebooks, then I am playing a "Non-Codex Chapter".
However, these rules are very loosely defined. I could, for example, take the Chaos Marine Legion the Night Lords and decide that the Codex: Chaos Space Marine rules suck ass, so I am going to use the Codex: Space Wolves to represent them.
Or, I could take the Imperial Fists, who in the setting of the game are a "Codex Chapter" and decide to use Codex: Black Templars to represent them. Die-hard fans might call you names, but nothing they can do about it.
As far as customizing a ruleset goes, as long as your not in an official tournament, anything goes as long as you tell your opponent beforehand and he agrees.
Quote from: Benoist;412718Bear with me guys. Complete 40K noob here. So when you say "I'm using my non-Codex Pigs in Space Chapter, based on the Space Marines Codex", you basically mean that you started from vanilla space marines and went custom on the actual composition of your army, correct?
Yeah, sorta. The main choice you, the player makes is "Am I using Codex: Space Marines, or am I using Codex: Space Wolves, or Codex: Chaos Space Marines, etc.?"
Quote from: Benoist;412674Can you use say Space Marines in Necromunda?
Yup, but they'd be insanely powered compared to gangs. SM use the best powered armor and best weapons. Gangers are usually unarmored (or flak at best) and toting the lower end weaponry.
Quote from: Benoist;412674Can you play an RPG using Necromunda rules for tactical battles?
You could easily use the 40k Kill Team rules for a RPG.
We ran a Mordheim RPG campaign using the minis rules and tacked on career skills from WFRP 1e. The Necromunda rules aren't much different.
I'm hoping to run a Necromunda RPG campaign in the future, but I will use Savage Worlds to keep it speedy.
I used to play a fair amount of 40K... we still get in a game of Rogue Trader now and then... but if I were to pick a sci fi skirmish game I'd go with something a bit more 'evolved'... I'd keep the setting but use 5150 from Two Hour Wargames.
Reasons:
1. The rules were not developed with the 'tournament' mindset of 40K... they are less concerned with 'balance' and more interested in creating interesting battles.
2. It's goal is NOT selling/promoting miniatures from any one manufacturer (but still has fan conversion for most all of the 40K forces where they play more like the 40K fiction than they do in 40K).
3. There are rules for designing your own troops (you could play Klingons vs. Eldar if you wanted).
4. The turn system isn't 'IGOUGO' (your guys don't just sit there and get shot up during the opponent's turn).
5. It works with much smaller forces than 40K.
6. Real world tactics will actually work (as opposed to nonsense things that happen in 40K).
7. 5150 is good for solo play because of the way the command/reaction system works... you are not in total absolute control of your forces... you can give them orders but they might ignore them to respond to some other situation.
8. There is a great yahoo group where the developers frequently post... with lots of fan generated materials.
Shockforce (Warengine is the free online version Link (http://warengine.darktortoise.com/index.php?title=Main_Page) ) is another rules set that a lot of ex-40K addicts swear by.
Stargrunt 2 is another stellar choice for sci fi wargaming but not ideal for 40K style space fantasy... it's more 'straight' (no overt psychic powers or magic). It's also a free download Link (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5686/stargrunt-ii).
If you've got to have an actual GW 40K game then I'd pick Necromunda... lots of good fan-generated stuff available on the Web... smaller forces... more scenario-based. It's basically 2nd edition 40K with a bit more detail (2nd edition was the last before GW became very corporate and centered their games on 'tournaments'). A more economical buy-in if nothing else.
Caveat: I haven't played the latest edition of 40k rules, I've heard rumors that they've moved the rules a bit closer to the original game... but it still seems to be very much concerned with 'tournament' play, which I have NO interest in.
40k's main selling point is that lots of other people play it, you can go anywhere and find opponents... but if you already have friends to play with then there are a MUCH better alternatives that still allow you to play with 40k figs in the 40k setting.
If you go for Orks the best suggestion I can give you is
BOYZ BOYZ BOYZ BOYZ BOYZ BOYZ!
Seriously if you don't have enough Boyz you ain't going to last long!
Simlasa's been very thorough with some alternatives - another option you may want to consider if you want to personalise non-WH40K figures could be Fast and Dirty which is published by Ivan Sorensen who normally posts at rpg.net
It's a free download and the 4th edition does seem to have more character than Stargrunt (which I do enjoy):
http://www.freewebs.com/weaselfierce/
For minis I have a load of old Space Marines, Imperial Guard, some AT-43 from the starter set, as well as anything else I can find on EBay - VOID minis, some Space Rangers and even some Blood Berets - they can all be statted up with characteristics for some flavour in FAD.
Anyway, have fun with whatever you decide.
Benoist, have a look at this thread (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51773).
Quote from: Windjammer;414773Benoist, have a look at this thread (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51773).
OK. Having a look right now.
Quote from: Frank TrollmanThe third thing to note is that the fluff, such as it was in the grimdarkness of grimdark future space where there is only war, has been fucked. In the eye. With a penis that had chaos mutations or something. The banner carrier for this is the Space Wolves. They are classically speaking an annoying Norsey Norse Norse faction of Spehss Marines who fight you with their rugged Norseness and have a weird set of doctrines about troop setup that made them arbitrarily incredibly overpowered in 2nd edition rules. But in the 5th edition rewrite... they are basically just Wolves. In Space. Apparently someone read the codex title hyper literally and now they have a bunch of Wolf shit for no reason. So... men in power armor riding wolves. Robot wolves. Werewolves. Cannons that shoot wolf teeth. Psychic powers that drop wolves on people. It goes on. And that's really unfortunate.
AHAHAHA Frank thinks it sucks, but when I read that, I thought "THAT IS SO AWESOME!!" :D
Very careful, there's a lot of nonsense in that thread, and the bit you quoted is one of several things Frank gets corrected on (not that I think he's even the most important voice in that thread). Still, there's always a freshness to these things at The Gaming Den that you can't get here anymore. Same for Warmachine (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51675&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0), to link another thread I thoroughly recommend. Mind you, I'm not a miniatures player at all in the canonical sense, as I don't have the time to paint and glue, and prefer to try out these games by proxying (e.g. Warmachine/Hordes by Dreamblade minis).
If I were to give a serious recommendation for a GW game, I'd urge you to bypass WH FB and 40K altogether, and go for Warmaster. Rules can be downloaded for free. Best design of Priestley, ever, from a period when GW still cared (at least in part) about making games. Priestley even recommends you to proxy the whole game with cardboard pieces (which, I should add, works splendidly and makes for a brilliantly portable game) to see if the game is for you. I've had some of the best gaming nights of all my life around a lively Warmaster table. Absolutely recommend playing it in teams of 2+ players a side.
Wonder what changes in GW designs will happen now that they fired Priestley. (http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2010/11/03/40585)
I've never read anything but praise for Warmaster... though I've never tried it myself. I thought Benoist was more specifically interested in the 40K setting though...
Is there any real word out that Rick Priestly was 'fired'? or is that just conjecture? He seems to have outside projects (Black Powder) that he is working on, maybe he decided to shift his main effort over to that?
Another really solid GW project is Battlefleet Gothic. It's not perfect but in many ways comes close and the rules are also free. Collecting mini's for it though is something else. But I haven't played any other fleet games yet that really capture the feel of giant warships broad siding and battering each other while faster fighters fly around and harass them.