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Is it considered a "Story game" and should be discussed here or is it a suitable topic the rpg forum?

Well the Last Thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=27600) on it was in the rpg forum.

Although the one before that was in other games, so you pays your money and takes your choice.

Yeah, I worried I might have fucked up putting it there. It was one of my first posts/threads. But I guess I'm just being overly nervous. I wasn't modded for it.

Quote from: Nexus;773604Yeah, I worried I might have fucked up putting it there. It was one of my first posts/threads. But I guess I'm just being overly nervous. I wasn't modded for it.

You're unlikely to get modded for anything short of porn links here. The worst that will happen if you start a thread in the main forum about a "story game" is Pundit will rant at you (well more at the game/it's designers, but he'll be ranting in your thread).

The biggest irony is, this should be in Help Desk.

Faserip 4 life

Quote from: Scott Anderson;773672Faserip 4 life

Word. The original, and still the best.

Quote from: Rincewind1;773611The biggest irony is, this should be in Help Desk.

I hate you. :D

Quote from: Nexus;773600Is it considered a "Story game" and should be discussed here or is it a suitable topic the rpg forum?

If memory serves, it was declared an Other Game, but I doubt anyone gives a shit anymore.

Quote from: CRKrueger;773742If memory serves, it was declared an Other Game, but I doubt anyone gives a shit anymore.

Pepperidge Farmer does.

Quote from: Rincewind1;773744Pepperidge Farmer does.

Him and Werther.

I'd love the chance to play it with a judge and crew who really had it down but frankly that's not going to happen and I would not waste my time trying to puzzle it out myself.

Long term I think it'll be buried right next to it's predecessor, the MURPG which was also a poorly explained game of byzantine rules and weird "We are not a traditional RPG, we promise!" mechanics.

I don't know if this was aimed at the storygames crowd or if it was intended to draw more people towards that playstyle, but it certainly wasn't friendly to those new to rpg's.

Quote from: Raven;773808I don't know if this was aimed at the storygames crowd or if it was intended to draw more people towards that playstyle, but it certainly wasn't friendly to those new to rpg's.

C+ plays better than it reads, but it reads terribly, and MHRPG was a particularly bad example of the system.

Quote from: Ladybird;773847C+ plays better than it reads, but it reads terribly, and MHRPG was a particularly bad example of the system.

Why do you think so?

Quote from: Raven;773808I don't know if this was aimed at the storygames crowd or if it was intended to draw more people towards that playstyle, but it certainly wasn't friendly to those new to rpg's.

I think - and this is entirely conjecture - that the design philosophy around it was, "we already have some pretty great superhero RPGs, so let's not be like them. That's covered." I mean, it's pretty hard to get people to give up their FASERIP, myself included. So, make a game approaches the source material from an entirely different angle. I could really get behind that.

Marvel Heroic Roleplaying is really more of a comic book emulation system. And I did really like it for a while, and I ran about 8 sessions of it, until the tremendous unbalance between special effects kind of crashed the system. The system isn't weighted. At all. I'm not saying it should have perfect balance, but...there's a fat man on the teeter-totter. And the other kid isn't having any fun, either.

//Panjumanju

The books seem written with the idea the reader has some familiarity with the Cortex rules already so they're more a refresher than instruction. Its a really different approach to rpg play for me so I felt like I was left in the wind by them.

Frankly, sometimes it doesn't seem like there's a system per se, more just a list of suggestions on how to roll dice to make stuff up. Its very loose and handwave driven which, in fairness, does fit allot of the source material but I'm used to more structure and I prefer more granularity and distinction.

So why is something so compelling about it? :)

Quote from: Nexus;774277Why do you think so?

C+ itself is a really light and simple system - build dice pool, roll it, pick two, compare. Done. It's the extra layers on top of it in Marvel that make it more confusing, because suddenly every dice could matter, and would need to be looked at before getting back to the actual game.

However, I'm unable to discuss the game now in too much detail, as I've got rid of my book because I realised I'd never play it..

In my more critical moments, I'd say the "system' feels like it could be summed up as "pick up a random handful of dice and roll them, pick three, total two of them then the GM rolls a random handful of dice, picks three and totals two. You have to compare the size of the third die in some cases."

There's very little structure and the way most groups seem to play is so loose that the rules that are in play seem a bit superfluous, practically what can I talk the GM into letting me roll style mechanics with the gm encouraged to be as loose as possible. It makes the mechanics seem a little pointless. Just freeform it.

But at other times, that hint of structure is entertaining but sticking to it can lead to some odd situations like Capt America being incredibly vulnerable to emotional manipulation sinice unless you allow some stretched justifications he's die pool comes out very small to resist them.

And as mentioned some of the SFX are just busted especially for Watcher characters.

Quote from: Nexus;774660But at other times, that hint of structure is entertaining but sticking to it can lead to some odd situations like Capt America being incredibly vulnerable to emotional manipulation sinice unless you allow some stretched justifications he's die pool comes out very small to resist them.

Yeah. Game really suffers from not having ability scores leading up to the super-power tiers. Just about every character who's not a telepath is practically helpless to psychic attacks... and everyone is vulnerable to mundane emotional attacks. Which can remove characters from combat.

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;774714Yeah. Game really suffers from not having ability scores leading up to the super-power tiers. Just about every character who's not a telepath is practically helpless to psychic attacks... and everyone is vulnerable to mundane emotional attacks. Which can remove characters from combat.

Yeah, its a bit too easy to send characters rushing from the battlefield in tears or getting them to curl up in a fetal ball of emotional torment. It works for some characters but not for others. I have heard an interesting viewpoint on the Mental attacks issue, that is does model the source material in that most non telepaths are incredibly vulnerable to mental attacks in the Marvel Universe. Which is fair, its often personal ethics and plot that limits the more powerful psis but that can be difficult to deal with in a game venue especially if one of your PCs is a telepath.

Anything thing we ran into was how Complications can eliminate a character from fights (and some are the most effective, even almost only way such in the case of the Invulnerability SFX). But not all Complications are created equal. Some make sense to eventually eliminate a character from the scene (or "narrative") others don't and that can vary from character to character. We could just be thinking too literally and "simulationist" (in the sense of thinking of the rules and mechanics as directly representing everything that happening in the game world) instead of taking them as narrative cues and shaping the descriptions to fit the results.

Which brings up another with the writing, one I mentioned earlier. It really assumes you're very experience not just with Cortex but with a more narrative style of play which left us hanging in the wind much of the time. But that might have just been our problem.

One house rule I've considered, dealing with Hulk, is that he can use his Emotional Stress and/or Trauma on any roll that includes Godlike Strength or Godlike Durability without stepping it up-- and if you "stress out" the Hulk that way, he doesn't leave the scene. He just starts a new Emotional track, with his d12 Stress and his dX Trauma still there, and go ahead, piss him off some more, I fucking dare you.

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;775074One house rule I've considered, dealing with Hulk, is that he can use his Emotional Stress and/or Trauma on any roll that includes Godlike Strength or Godlike Durability without stepping it up-- and if you "stress out" the Hulk that way, he doesn't leave the scene. He just starts a new Emotional track, with his d12 Stress and his dX Trauma still there, and go ahead, piss him off some more, I fucking dare you.

That seems like a good one, reflects the Hulk's essentially unlimited rage driven strength well.

I've noticed allot of the later character sheets (Datafiles) give the characters some means of rapidly healing Emotional Stress in Action scenes. I think someone noticed the problem. The system is very amiable to house ruling, mainly because there's not much structure to begin with.

I noticed characters seem to have been given things like Enhanced Reflexes on vague or no pretense because otherwise they'd have little or  nothing to roll on many Actions. Another problem with not having base "attributes" of some kind.

With so many unclarities and apparently necessary fixes coming up in each and every discussion I've seen about it, MHR doesn't even sound like a game at times, let alone an RPG. I don't get what's the appeal.

Quote from: 3rik;775372With so many unclarities and apparently necessary fixes coming up in each and every discussion I've seen about it, MHR doesn't even sound like a game at times, let alone an RPG. I don't get what's the appeal.

Its the internet. Don't believe everything you read :)

IME Marvel Heroic worked fine as written and was a lot of fun. It was a little unclear at times, made worse by some innovative ideas, but not insurmountably so.

TBH I am not a huge fan (for different reasons) but I wouldn't mistake a few posters "need" for fixes to be anything other than the usual fare of house ruling.

We're gamers. I don't think there's a one of us that can stand the taste of a drink until he's pissed in it.

Quote from: Skywalker;775382Its the internet. Don't believe everything you read :)

IME Marvel Heroic worked fine as written and was a lot of fun. It was a little unclear at times, made worse by some innovative ideas, but not insurmountably so.

Things like that are always subjective. There's a small group that feels Exalted 2ed works just fine without house ruling. Play style and other factors play a big part in it. Experience will vary. Even if a game works okay there maybe rough patches for some they want to smooth over even for fans. I do that all the time.

IMHO, there are some things that are busted. You can play around them, some groups might never ever encounter them due the way they play (low gamist, optimizer more story oriented groups, for example). But others will.

I'd recommend trying the rules if they interest you as RAW first then making what changes, if any, you feel are needed to make them more fun.

QuoteTBH I am not a huge fan (for different reasons) but I wouldn't mistake a few posters "need" for fixes to be anything other than the usual fare of house ruling.

What are the reasons, out of curiosity?

Quote from: Skywalker;775382Its the internet. Don't believe everything you read :)

IME Marvel Heroic worked fine as written and was a lot of fun. It was a little unclear at times, made worse by some innovative ideas, but not insurmountably so.

Things like that are always subjective. There's a small group that feels Exalted 2ed works just fine without house ruling. Play style and other factors play a big part in it. Experience will vary. Even if a game works okay there maybe rough patches for some they want to smooth over even for fans. I do that all the time.

IMHO, there are some aspects of the rules are legitimately busted. Depending on their playstyle and adherence to mechanical rigor, some groups might not encounter them, others will. The same can be said of much more dysfunctional systems though. Its not horrible, just handwavey and vague in places with some mechanics that don't take stress very well (no pun intended). That could be very well be intentional.

I'd recommend trying the rules if they interest you as RAW first then making what changes, if any, you feel are needed to make them more fun.

QuoteTBH I am not a huge fan (for different reasons) but I wouldn't mistake a few posters "need" for fixes to be anything other than the usual fare of house ruling.

What are the reasons, out of curiosity?

Honestly, MHR doesn't need house rules as much as it needs a very good DM to run-- it doesn't do as much of the work for you as a lot of other modern games, so you have to be able to make judgment calls as to what's reasonable and what isn't.

Like my suggested house rule for the Hulk. That's really just a way of saying, "No, it doesn't make sense for you to be able to knock Hulk out of a fight by pissing him off more." I like mechanical solutions, because the right rule, the right mechanic, just makes the game fit the simulation that much better.

A lot of the problem with emotional attacks isn't that characters have no resistance to it, it's that the rules don't really spell out that you have to have some pretty good leverage in order to be able to inflict that kind of emotional damage on someone that isn't inherently unstable.

Quote from: FaerieGodfather;776013That's really just a way of saying, "No, it doesn't make sense for you to be able to knock Hulk out of a fight by pissing him off more." I like mechanical solutions, because the right rule, the right mechanic, just makes the game fit the simulation that much better.

A lot of the problem with emotional attacks isn't that characters have no resistance to it, it's that the rules don't really spell out that you have to have some pretty good leverage in order to be able to inflict that kind of emotional damage on someone that isn't inherently unstable.

This.  Despite being generally poorly written, the game is very clear that the fiction takes precedence over mechanics.  You're not going to do any emotional damage to Captain America by shouting "Boo! America sucks!" at him.  You don't even roll for that.

What MHR really needs/needed was a lot more examples showing how the system could be used to model things that actually happen in comic books.  If you're not well-versed with narrative RPGs and modern superhero comic books, it can be very hard to see how to get from what's happening in the fiction to what you should be rolling.

EDIT: Another house rule that makes MHR work better - don't restrict Power Sets to actual superpowers, use them to represent any particular character's unique expertise.  Characters that are known for their ability to lead and inspire a team can and should have a whole Power Set that reflects that.  More so than just Team d10 and the Distinction Leader of Men.

Quote from: Panjumanju;774356[...] the tremendous unbalance between special effects kind of crashed the system. The system isn't weighted. At all. I'm not saying it should have perfect balance, but...there's a fat man on the teeter-totter. And the other kid isn't having any fun, either.

Can you elaborate on this?  My experience has been that the system self-balances in play (which was the design goal).  What SFX did you find "unbalanced"?

A good GM and group can make almost anything work (Exalted 2ed. I'm looking at you. Again.) but I do feel the MHRP has some issues. Though as I said up thread some of it is more in the writing than the mechanics which is presented from a standpoint of familiarity both with Cortex but with narrative gaming overall. Its a fun game though, despite not being exactly my cuppa.

Quote from: Nexus;775551What are the reasons, out of curiosity?

The competition between GM and players in combat. MHR differs from many RPGs in that it creates tension in combat by setting a level playing field for the GM and players to compete on. Admittedly, it succeeds in this aim and I found the combat to be wonderfully tense. However, as GM, I didn't like being forced to take an adversarial position to the players in combat all the time.

Quote from: Skywalker;776297The competition between GM and players in combat. MHR differs from many RPGs in that it creates tension in combat by setting a level playing field for the GM and players to compete on. Admittedly, it succeeds in this aim and I found the combat to be wonderfully tense. However, as GM, I didn't like being forced to take an adversarial position to the players in combat all the time.

Thanks and I can certainly understand that. It doesn't help that some of the SFF can be down right abusive for Watcher character if you game them.

Quote from: Nexus;776310Thanks and I can certainly understand that. It doesn't help that some of the SFF can be down right abusive for Watcher character if you game them.

Its a cool concept and it certainly works. I just don't like how enforced it is in MHR.

The same level playing field concept is used for good effect in D&D4e, where it feels less about competition and more about challenge as the GM is able to move from being an adversary when it makes sense to do so.

Quote from: daniel_ream;776089Can you elaborate on this?  My experience has been that the system self-balances in play (which was the design goal).  What SFX did you find "unbalanced"?

My memory of this isn't great, because it was back when it first came out that we played. The only example I can remember clearly in my head is "Counter" - the SFX seemed like it got a lot more mileage than the rest.

Just to be clear, I am not much for game balance. Character optimisation is not the fun thing for me. I hate hearing the words 'trap option'. Just about any inequity can be an opportunity for great roleplaying.

However, in the case of Marvel Heroic my players were noting inequalities across the table that made them feel like they'd made the 'wrong choice' when they created their character. These aren't normally people concerned with fiddling bits, either, which made me think something must be going wrong. The deeper I looked into the system - again, at the time, and I didn't retain it all - the less it seemed to function. I saw what essentially amounted to tiers of SFX, some distinctly more applicable to a comic book setting, beyond what could be accommodated by an interesting character or good GMing. All in all it made my players feel like the dice being thrown around were even more arbitrary.

It wasn't my only problem with the game, but it was certainly one of the more pronounced ones. There were also things I really liked about the game, but ultimately the hassle of trying to re-balance it at the table was too great, and I gave up.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;776478My memory of this isn't great, because it was back when it first came out that we played. The only example I can remember clearly in my head is "Counter" - the SFX seemed like it got a lot more mileage than the rest.

Counterattack? Its a powerful SFX but pretty rare and almost always limited in its operation (energy based attacks, edged/blunt attacks) unless you are someone like the Human Torch.

MHR is not designed as a balanced point buy system. It relies on the players to give use the mechanics to give effect to their ideas for the PC, rather than just max out their power level.

Quote from: Skywalker;776716Counterattack? Its a powerful SFX but pretty rare and almost always limited in its operation (energy based attacks, edged/blunt attacks) unless you are someone like the Human Torch.

I've found that there are two things that most people who complain about balance in MHR tend to miss.

• The fiction comes first.  Your datafile does not tell you what your superpowers can do; your character description does.  MHR doesn't do anywhere near a good enough job of calling this out. You only get to use your SFX if that makes sense in the fiction.  Counterattack as written only works against a specific damage type, and only if the superpower as described would allow it.  The Human Torch doesn't get to use Counterattack against bullets.
• The majority of SFX can be duplicated with Plot Points, and Plot Points are easy to come by.  Anything one player can do with SFX, another player or NPC can do with Plot Points, usually.  Anyone can Counterattack by spending a Plot Point on a successful reaction roll., and they can counter any kind of attack as long as they can fudge a good reason.  You might need a second plot point to add in a third die to guarantee that success.