So.. I've heard about this game for years. 93 metacritic average, by the Baldur's Gate guys. And was pretty sure it was good, but never got around to playing it.
Then it came to Steam for 10 bucks and I felt pretty much obligated.
And I have to say, I am really blown away by this game.
I also like all the little ways it reminds me of Baldur's Gate, in that every party member has a story, and the more you adventure with that party member, the more of their story you learn.
Given that there are 9 potential party members, this seems like it would give the game a lot of replay value.
No spoilers please, I *think* I'm only about half way through, but I'm not even sure of that.
It is a solid game and very fun. It isn't as mature at doing its job as Mass Effect, but it is still brilliant for the time it came out and still worth replaying to me.
Knights of the Old Republic is The Awesome.
I replayed this game... ooh. I don't know how many times! Enjoy!
Honestly? I've only ever played it through about halfway. The first half or so is really cool, but:
– the fact that everything's level scales along with your own makes leveling feel pointless
– the Big Plot Twist* always takes me right out of wanting to play it
*I'm not sure how I even discuss it without totally spoiling it if you haven't gotten that far.
On the big plus side, HK-47.
I thought that Knights II blew Knights I away...except for the INCREDIBLY anticlimactic finish...I loved Knights I, but Knights II has (to me) a better story, better NPCs, better options...just better in most ways...now if Lucasarts had let them FINISH the game...
Also, this makes me sadder stilll that my XBox is dead...dammit.
I missed KotoR the first time around but the continual glowing reviews from my other gaming buddies makes $10 seem like a good deal.
It's alright. The linearity was sort of a nasty business, as was having to grind through so much before you actually got to be a Jedi, but the big thing that wound up killing it for me was just the suspension of disbelief hit that I took the instant the main plot macguffin was revealed and I realized I was basically playing Final Fantasy with Star Wars chrome.
Once I got off the Jedi world and they revealed the whole star map nonsens, and then got smacked down by Sith for going to the wrong planet first, it sort of killed the game for me, and I've never been able to get even as far as JEdi training in it since. It was really a big disappointment for me, in the end.
The other thing is – since I don't read franchise books – KOTOR made me realize how profoundly depressing the extended Star Wars universe is.
I mean, here you have a galaxy long ago and far away where, for tens of thousands of years, there is no real technological progress, nothing really new, just the same conflict between the same two factions for thousands of thousands of years on end, and countless inhabited planets with screw-all to do but be caught in the crossfire. You're just minding your own business, tending your dad's power-converter shop, because what else are you gonna do, and boom! your whole goddamn planet blows up because of some fucking Jedi after some crystals or some shit.
Par for the course in medieval fantasy, but given sci-fi trappings, it's just demoralizing.
While I really enjoyed KoToR 1 & 2 and they are worth playing. I never found the replay value to be very high. There really isn't as much variety to the game as you initially are lead to believe. Also there really isn't any significant added value into exploring all the character dynamics, unless you are the type of person that really gets into that sorta thing. For as much dialog and choice I found that it's impact was largely inconsequential to the overall game. It's very easy to figure out the light side, neural and dark side choices every time and pick accordingly.
While I enjoyed the game overall the I find the 'dynamic' portion of the game to be just a case of going through the motions. But to be fair I find that to be pretty much the same for every Bioware RPG since the formula was introduced in Baldur's Gate 1. There really just aren't any surprised in any game past that.
Neverwinter nights suffers from the same flaw. Lots of work in clicking through very dull character conversations for no real gain. In the case of Neverwinter Nights 2 having some NPC's follow their prestige classes was more of a penalty overall.
Even while I'm anxiously awaiting Dragon Age, I'm still expecting more of the same. But I'm certain I'll still enjoy the game for all the other elements of play that Bioware and this style of game do well.
Neverwinter Nights gains a lot from all the user-made modules out there, many of which are quite a bit better done than the campaigns that ship with the game.
But, limits to dynamism, linearity – welp, that's a CRPG for you.
I think there's a difference between RPGs that tell a story and those that are sandboxy, and I think its illustrative of limitations we face in RPGs too. You can't have it both ways, and I think games like KOTOR or FFX at one extreme, and Mount and Blade at the other are interesting examples.
So in KOTOR, you get some variation within a broader arc, but you are still very much NOT in a sandbox. You're on the merry go round, which is awesome and can go at varying speeds but it will never be a sandbox.
Its always interesting to me to see folks' reactions to games. Some folks seem to only enjoy one or the other, or at least have a strong preference.
I guess I don't, as long as the game is really good.
I'm now about 75% done with the game I think, with the "big twist" having happened. It wasn't really, but I actually appreciated the effort. They really tried to give me that "NO THAT'S NOT TRUE!" moment from Empire Strikes Back, and even though they didn't, I still find I want to find out what's going to happen to these characters.
But twists are, I think, harder to pull off in a RPG than anywhere else. FFX is really the only truly amazing twist that blew me away in a game.
Anyway, still loving it.
Fun game. Definitely take a look at the sequel as well. Good times.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;331032I think there's a difference between RPGs that tell a story and those that are sandboxy, and I think its illustrative of limitations we face in RPGs too. You can't have it both ways, and I think games like KOTOR or FFX at one extreme, and Mount and Blade at the other are interesting examples.
So in KOTOR, you get some variation within a broader arc, but you are still very much NOT in a sandbox. You're on the merry go round, which is awesome and can go at varying speeds but it will never be a sandbox.
Its always interesting to me to see folks' reactions to games. Some folks seem to only enjoy one or the other, or at least have a strong preference.
I guess I don't, as long as the game is really good.
I don't disagree with your comparisons as they hold true. But I'd suggest that if you are doing a story based game, make the story important to the game and use the game itself to tell the story and not just endless pages of irrelevant dialogue.
It's that point that bugs me about these style of games. It's that you've got all this story, but it has no importance on how the game plays out. You can very easily skip through all of the rolling text and still know exactly what you are supposed to do. I still enjoy the games mechanically but I generally find the story is entirely transparent and often meaningless to the game itself.
I remember choose your own adventure books, you had to read the text to actually make an informed decision on which page to flip to. Most bioware style games don't have that at all. You always know which page to go to and that seems like a vast amount of wasted effort.
Games like Final Fantasy on the other hand do a much better job of embedding the story into the experience. You can skip the text but they rely on stronger cut scenes more spoken dialogue and other tricks to unfold the story in a more relevant manor.
I actually find sandbox games like Mount & Blade or Oblivion do a much better job of rolling you into the story. In these games it's these story elements that are important to decision making. You could just randomly wonder around and still, eventually finish the game (maybe). But in a sandbox game if you follow the story and get involved with what's going on the experience makes much more sense as a whole.
Back to the Bioware style games, I still love the games, but the story aspects are irrelevant for the most part which is a huge waste of effort on theirs. I think it's a case of these games wanting to be story games, pretending to be sandbox games and not really doing either really well. What still makes them really fun though is that the actual play is very, very good.
I think Oblivion, along with Fallout 2 and 3 are the only games Ive ever seen do a good job telling a story AND being sandboxes.
Having now finished KOTOR, I thought it told a good story and I liked quite a few of the characters. The gameplay is the most important part to me though and that was very nicely done.
I also like the fact that it feels very much like playing Baldur's Gate, just with better graphics and some tweaks that I like a lot, like auto-pausing at the start of combat.
Decent games, but like J Arcane mentioned, a little too linear for my tastes. GTA really spolied me. :) Plus, I don't like games where you stack moves and wait for your character to use them. I much prefer to swing my own swords and shoot my own blasters.
However, IMO the real value comes into play if you're running a Star Wars RPG. The games have tons of ideas, storylines, and NPCs that can be integrated into any Star Wars campaign just by filing off some serial numbers. Not only that, the graphics format helps you visualize the Star Wars universe better, so when you're describing new worlds, buildings, technology, events, etc. you have a solid image in your mind of how you want it to look.
If you're running a Star Wars campaign and/or have time to kill and you're a Star Wars fan, I think both games are definitely worth the time.
Pete
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;332143I think Oblivion, along with Fallout 2 and 3 are the only games Ive ever seen do a good job telling a story AND being sandboxes.
Having now finished KOTOR, I thought it told a good story and I liked quite a few of the characters. The gameplay is the most important part to me though and that was very nicely done.
I also like the fact that it feels very much like playing Baldur's Gate, just with better graphics and some tweaks that I like a lot, like auto-pausing at the start of combat.
While not nit picking there are some other games that I've played that have done good on combining story with sandbox. The Gothic series I found to do a good job of it, especially Gothic 3. I felt very involved and important in the story of freeing the human race form their Orc overloards. I also like the story that's being told in Mount & Blade. While not a story in the traditional sense I do feel very invovled in what's going on and I'm enjoying all the squabbles and dealings between the various nations. While not a traditional story, there is certainly something going on there that I find involving and interesting and compelling.
I agree KOTOR does feel very much like playing Baldur's Gate, all those games feels like playing Baulder's Gate. Which is where I get bored of the story those games are telling. Baulder's Gate was an amazing experience overall.
Every game since then they've improved on the mechanics and game play. However I don't feel that the story telling aspects have improved at all or the stories themselves even drastically changed. They all progress the same, they all have similar twists and a similar ending. Yes I know that's pretty much the same with every stock fantasy game or book.
In each one of those games I keep expecting to see the badguy show up early, only with his name spelled backwards.
For the record, KOTOR is my favorite PC RPG of all time. I liked KOTOR II except for the craptastic ending. Some people are working on a massive mod that is supposed to improve and finish the game but there hasn't been an update in several months.
One of the challenges in replay (particularly the first game) is to go in a different order and use different combinations of characters. The light side game is more satisfying, in my opinion, because the dark side is pretty much, "How big of a sociopath can I be today," instead of the more cunning Dark Lord that you would actually want to be.
There are many memorable characters and moments. HK-47 is absolutely fantastic. I actually liked all of the characters is KOTOR, even Carth once I got over his angst.
Fun games though. I wish KOTOR III was in the same mold. What would kick ass though is a KOTOR game in the mold of Neverwinter Nights. Too bad we'll never see the day.
Quote from: PaladinCA;332615For the record, KOTOR is my favorite PC RPG of all time. I liked KOTOR II except for the craptastic ending. Some people are working on a massive mod that is supposed to improve and finish the game but there hasn't been an update in several months.
One of the challenges in replay (particularly the first game) is to go in a different order and use different combinations of characters. The light side game is more satisfying, in my opinion, because the dark side is pretty much, "How big of a sociopath can I be today," instead of the more cunning Dark Lord that you would actually want to be.
Yeah, I am playing through a second time, trying to see the Sith ending, but I'm trying to play a guy with a wicked temper, who is vengeful, but at least "thinks" he's a good guy.
And I'm close to dark side, but still just this side of neutral, because the game thinks my unwillingness to kill Zaalbar's father (someone who has saved my ass multiple times) makes me "good".
Thanks for the reviews everyone. I'm currently enjoying Fallout3 after some glowing reviews on this very forum. I'm really enjoying F3 because of the way that the story arcs are opening up faster than I can complete them. The missions themselves feel very railroady but the choice to tackle them in whatever order is is exciting.
The gameplay itself is casual and touristy, which is what I'm hearing about KotOR too.
If you go into KOTOR expecting it to be as sandboxy as FO3, you will be woefully disappointed. It is very much on rails. Even once you get your own ship and get out into space, the order you're allowed to visit planets in isn't as open as it initially appears, you WILL be killed rather capriciously if you go to a place they don't think you should be yet. There's no auto-levelling here, and it's not a matter of "here there be dragons", as IME finding where you were and weren't supposed to go at that stage seemed entirely random. "Rocks fall, everyone dies", or rather "Sith come, everyone dies".
To me that's a feature not a bug. Sort of like the old megadungeon thing where you have to scout before you pilliage.
Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;332670To me that's a feature not a bug. Sort of like the old megadungeon thing where you have to scout before you pilliage.
Well, but I mean in the bad sense. There's no scouting, just out of nowhere, you walk around a corner, and then you die because the game says that's not where you're supposed to go.
It's sort of like a GM running a hex crawl campaign, but if you go anywhere but the hex he wants you do go next, Cthulhu shows up and kills you on the spot. There's no real freedom here, no exploration, just "you go where we want you".
The areas themselves, are almost uniformly straight corridors. On the rare occasion there's a branch in the path, both paths lead to the same goal, or one to a dead end.
There is no sandbox. That's fine, if that's what you want, but I prefer things more open, like Ultima or Fallout.
Quote from: J Arcane;332671Well, but I mean in the bad sense. There's no scouting, just out of nowhere, you walk around a corner, and then you die because the game says that's not where you're supposed to go.
It's sort of like a GM running a hex crawl campaign, but if you go anywhere but the hex he wants you do go next, Cthulhu shows up and kills you on the spot. There's no real freedom here, no exploration, just "you go where we want you".
The areas themselves, are almost uniformly straight corridors. On the rare occasion there's a branch in the path, both paths lead to the same goal, or one to a dead end.
There is no sandbox. That's fine, if that's what you want, but I prefer things more open, like Ultima or Fallout.
Where did that happen to you in KOTOR? Because I never experienced that in closing in on two times through.
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;332678Where did that happen to you in KOTOR? Because I never experienced that in closing in on two times through.
My first playthrough ended when I got off Dantooine and headed for Tatooine, just 'cause it was in the movies, and I though, hey, that could be cool.
I land, walk out into town, then around a corner, when 6 dark Jedi easily double my level just show up suddenly and charge me, and they've all got maxed force jump so I can't even escape. I died about 3 or 4 more times before I just said fuck it and quit.
That sounds like Fallout3.
There are several classes of enemies that were instant death until I got my level up. Mirelurks used to be certain doom but they've been on my list of things that are too easy to kill for a long while now. Ghouls used to be unbeatable without the Ghoul mask but now I plink at them with pistols and hunting rifles to conserve usefull ammo. Supermutants used to be deadly. I'd cat and mouse them one by one at long range with a sniper rifle -- now I can stand toe to toe with a dozen or more as long as they don't have too many missle launchers.
Secondly, the level design is very simple. The closest I've seen to a maze is the Dunwitch Building. There are some tricks you can play with hacking and turrets but most branches are short dead ends or a loop so that the only real choice is to clear the level clockwise or counter clockwise. That said the DC subway seems immense and mazelike although I haven't really explored it yet so that could be the cool that's lacking in KotOR.
Quote from: J Arcane;332682My first playthrough ended when I got off Dantooine and headed for Tatooine, just 'cause it was in the movies, and I though, hey, that could be cool.
I land, walk out into town, then around a corner, when 6 dark Jedi easily double my level just show up suddenly and charge me, and they've all got maxed force jump so I can't even escape. I died about 3 or 4 more times before I just said fuck it and quit.
Wow, I think that might be a glitch. I think there's a "hard wired" encounter with 3 dark Jedi on Tattooine, cause I had the encounter at the exact same place in two different games, but they weren't overwhelming.
I definitely don't think the game is designed that way. Course, I downloaded the game like a week ago, so I might be playing a patched version or something.
Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;332686That sounds like Fallout3.
There are several classes of enemies that were instant death until I got my level up. Mirelurks used to be certain doom but they've been on my list of things that are too easy to kill for a long while now. Ghouls used to be unbeatable without the Ghoul mask but now I plink at them with pistols and hunting rifles to conserve usefull ammo. Supermutants used to be deadly. I'd cat and mouse them one by one at long range with a sniper rifle -- now I can stand toe to toe with a dozen or more as long as they don't have too many missle launchers.
Secondly, the level design is very simple. The closest I've seen to a maze is the Dunwitch Building. There are some tricks you can play with hacking and turrets but most branches are short dead ends or a loop so that the only real choice is to clear the level clockwise or counter clockwise. That said the DC subway seems immense and mazelike although I haven't really explored it yet so that could be the cool that's lacking in KotOR.
KOTOR has pretty big worlds, and there are 7 worlds total, plus a small space station run by a smuggler, but the worlds themselves are pretty linear.
Basically, its a game I love for the story, learning about the characters, taking a trip through the star wars universe at ground level, and developing the most kick ass Jedi I can.
It's also a trip when you can roll with three Jedi at once, which is fun as hell as long as you dont need to hack a computer or pick a lock. Then you want a droid or a thief.
But in areas where there are hordes of beasts or droids, taking an all Jedi party is fun.
The way they track alignment is really wonky however. I didn't notice that first time through. Their notion of "good" seems much more reasonable to me than their notion of "evil".
For example, as near as I can tell, nothing about the force is evil, even powers that are labeled "dark side". Apparently when Yoda told Luke the force was never to be used for attack he was straight up LYING, because I am force lightning and draining life all the time and my alignment seems fine.
Its just their pre-set "moral choices" that cause drift. And even then, I gain Light Points in situations where I think I shouldn't, and do things I think are heinous that have no affect on my alignment.
Using the Jedi Mind trick to avoid a small docking fee I could easily pay? No problem. Sucking the life out of a sandperson to heal myself? No problem! Being mean to someone in conversation? Path to the dark side baby!
Honestly, I think KOTOR did more harm to the presentation of morality in video games than any game in the history of the genre.
Mass Effect was a breath of fresh air. They finally got it, that you could have moral choices in a game without them being a choice between stark black and white poles that make even the most primitive comics look positively philosophical.
It's been a while since I've played KOTOR but I distinctly don't remember ever being thrown way out of my depth, ever.
I dunno about FO3 but Fallout 1 and 2 will kill you very very quickly if you jump the gun on certain locations. Or if you don't. :rotfl:
Lots and lots of reloads, Fallout 1 and 2.
Doooogmeat!
Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;332697The way they track alignment is really wonky...
Unreasonable morality? Surely that's genre emulation. :p
Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;332710Unreasonable morality? Surely that's genre emulation. :p
I would be ok with that so long as it was the RIGHT genre they were emulating ;)
As I said, I am running around using force lightning and life drain and force choke all the time and no one bats an eyelash.
When I gratuitously dominate the mind of some customs officer with the force, if there's a fellow Jedi in my party, they bitch at me for my path to the dark side, but it just seems to be hot air, cause I dont actually GET closer to the dark side for doing it.
On the other hand, using the Jedi mind trick to help solve a murder case, getting a Rodian to admit he helped frame a guy? Yeah, dark side.
That sounds right to me.
Force choke is kosher thanks to Clone Wars. I haven't watched it, but the Samuel Jackson strangles someone and remains lightside so that set a precedent and it percolated into SW:SAGA.
And force lightning is kosher thanks to some EU stuff. Again, I haven't watched it but WotC scribbled it in to stay consistant. Supposedly once the Jedi in question jumped the shark into an Episode 3 cameo he and his trademark lightside-lightning became cannon too.
Gratuitously using the force doesn't lead to the darkside but it a symptom of heading that way (according to Obi Wan's henpecking).
Using the force to solve a mystery is totaly darkside because that deals with objective truth but "ONLY THE SITH DEAL IN ABSOLUTES!!!!!" says Obi Wan.
Anyway sounds like KotOR has both the science fiction and morality fiction I know and love. :)
Aside from the craptitude of the Tales setting and the craptitude +1 of having to use a sword not a lightstick, KotR is really good and still trumps 99% of the rubbish that passes for modern next gen gaming. I must downloadz it sometime :D