Jeepform (http://jeepen.org/), a game-style from Scandinavia was up for a Diana Jones award this year. Does anybody understand what this shit is about? I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
Quote from: mhensley;321690Jeepform (http://jeepen.org/), a game-style from Scandinavia was up for a Diana Jones award this year. Does anybody understand what this shit is about? I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
It's a kind of Scandinavian mini-game LARPing. It's meant to be very politically or socially charged, and to cause one to think about a particular subject in a new or unusual way. One tends to play a role, not a character in it (it's more like being a banker in Monopoly than Frodo). Most famously, one jeepform game was called "Gang Rape" and is meant to teach you that gang rape is transgressive and bad, and the rest of it is at about that level of intellectual sophistication.
And that's supposed to be fun?
EDIT: This award seems to be given out only to social misfits.
There always has been a thin line between LARP and roleplaying-as-therapy or roleplay-as-learning tool. If you read descriptions of Victorian parlor games that became popular around the rise of Freud, you will see strong parallels.
Jeepform and other psycho-drama LARPs drops the "I'm an elf" separation of fantasy and focuses on deep immersion and emotional realism. The general concept is that there is something to be gained from experiencing the viewpoint of another person.
It's not much different from acting exercises that you would go through as a Method Actor for stage and screen.
I greatly enjoy some LARPs, but I prefer "I'm the an elf" games and skip the psycho-drama. At conventions I have attended there have been ZERO Jeepform events involving anything like gang rape. Zero.
As long as Scandinavians continue cranking out hot chicks and heavy metal, I forgive them their emotional LARPing.
Can Jeepform be used for lawncrapping? Sure! But so can OD&D.
Quote from: Spinachcat;321748Can Jeepform be used for lawncrapping? Sure! But so can OD&D.
* crossbow twang! *
GOT the little bastard!
(not referring to Spinichcat)
(Also, tits.)
Old Geezer, stop wasting screen space with your off-topic nonsense or I'll ban your ass.
I'm suspicious of new concepts that can't get explained well or concisely. Rimes with humbug in my book.
Quote from: brettmb;321745This award seems to be given out only to social misfits.
Like Ticket to Ride, Dominion, and the Irish charity gaming scene. And Wolfgang Baur and myself, so maybe you have half a point.
By far the most commonly played game is The Upgrade! (http://jeepen.org/games/upgrade), with Doubt (http://jeepen.org/games/doubt)a close second. The Upgrade! is specifically designed to teach you Jeepform play, so that's a great place to start if you are genuinely curious.
I've played and facilitated a number of Jeepform games, so if you have questions I'd be glad to answer them as best I can.
Quote from: Old Geezer;321749* crossbow twang! *
GOT the little bastard!
(not referring to Spinichcat)
(Also, tits.)
I feel exactly the same way. Jeepform sounds like it sucks ass.
Quote from: brettmb;321751Old Geezer, stop wasting screen space with your off-topic nonsense or I'll ban your ass.
I feel kind of left out and unloved.
I thought for a moment this game was about becoming a truck or something.
Oops.
Less than meets the eye.
How is this stuff not 90% identical with Forge theory?
'Gang Rape'?
You shirley aren't serious?
Quote from: Pierce Inverarity;321786How is this stuff not 90% identical with Forge theory?
I don't know.
From the Jeep rules/tenets (http://jeepen.org/dict/), a pet peeve:
"Everyday drama is more interesting than epic drama."
Why? Because it connects more with human nature? Complete, utter bullshit!
Nevermind the fact that epic drama is actually about something much deeper in human nature.
I too love the point that "
the lists below are NOT manifestos" while number 20 states "
"Breaking" any of the "rules" above is only allowed in order to make a point." Enjoy the contradictions, gentlemen.
This comes off to me as "Swinery by any other name".
Quote from: Pierce Inverarity;321786How is this stuff not 90% identical with Forge theory?
Hey Pierce, these guys came up in a tradition that has nothing to do with Forge theory. One thread of Jeepform development was definitely a reaction to tabletop play, into which they would conceptually lump the gnarliest hippie game with the stodgiest old skool game, I suspect, as being pretty much the same - you are locked to a table, you are locked to mechanical randomness, character monogamy, and so forth. Not much Forge influence, as far as I know.
Quote from: Benoist;321798Enjoy the contradictions, gentlemen.
I'd suggest reading charitably and making allowances for non-native writers.
The sentence you call out could be paraphrased:
These "rules" work pretty well. If you are going to break them, break them thoughtfully. I think that's much closer to its true intent. There are other places where language gets in the way.
Quote from: Jason Morningstar;321808Hey Pierce, these guys came up in a tradition that has nothing to do with Forge theory. One thread of Jeepform development was definitely a reaction to tabletop play, into which they would conceptually lump the gnarliest hippie game with the stodgiest old skool game, I suspect, as being pretty much the same - you are locked to a table, you are locked to mechanical randomness, character monogamy, and so forth. Not much Forge influence, as far as I know.
So, how is this stuff not 90% identical with Forge theory?
http://jeepen.org/dict/
I can't be any clearer than "they are not related".
Any questions?
See what happens when you start threads like this? The resident sleeper cell activates. :nono:
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;321792'Gang Rape'?
You shirley aren't serious?
http://jeepen.org/games/gr/
It was how I heard about jeepform, actually. They don't appear to have the detailed rules up anymore.
Well, that's the problem with gang rape really, you're right in the middle, things are going fine, and then some asshat starts an argument about the orifice priority rules.
Into other games with you, strange larp thing.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;321854[url]They don't appear to have the detailed rules up anymore.
You have to ask if you want to read it, so ask if you are curious. The game was prompted by Sweden's atrocious record in prosecuting rapes.
Quote from: brettmb;321751Old Geezer, stop wasting screen space with your off-topic nonsense or I'll ban your ass.
Wow. Talking about pretending to be an elf is Serious Shit.
Is this a game as in a game you play for fun or is it a game you play as part of a 12step therapy plan or a training program for social workers/police officers etc. This is a genuine request as I actually think there would be some genuine use in it as a therapy or training tool.
Quote from: Jason Morningstar;321862You have to ask if you want to read it, so ask if you are curious. The game was prompted by Sweden's atrocious record in prosecuting rapes.
I read some sort of summary of the rules back when it first came out. You basically violate the personal space of the "victim" w/o touching them. I forget what the end condition was (or if there was one). It struck me as more lame and uncomfortable than anything else.
Personally, I'm not particularly hostile to jeepform conceptually, but all the jeepform games seem kind of pretentious and underwritten. I think the Scandinavian style of LARPing (of which keepform is one type) is a little too focused and pushes out the possibility of surprise and play contrary to the underlying concept (such as Arneson famously did in that tropical island revolution LARP). YMMV though.
Quote from: Old Geezer;321865Wow. Talking about pretending to be an elf is Serious Shit.
Some folks like to thinks so...
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;321854http://jeepen.org/games/gr/
It was how I heard about jeepform, actually. They don't appear to have the detailed rules up anymore.
Man, this is genius. Everyone's been talking about how to best market an entry level rpg and here you go. The negative press alone would have teenagers buying Gang Rape the rpg faster than you could print it.
Quotesuch as Arneson famously did in that tropical island revolution LARP
I want to hear this story immediately. It sounds much more interesting than more Morningstar shilling and pretentious Finnish wankery.
Quote from: jibbajibba;321878Is this a game as in a game you play for fun or is it a game you play as part of a 12step therapy plan or a training program for social workers/police officers etc. This is a genuine request as I actually think there would be some genuine use in it as a therapy or training tool.
It certain uses techniques from both the therapeutic and theatrical. There's no question that drama improv teachers use something similiar in actor training.
It's not my type of "fun", but other LARPers definitely enjoyed the small scale personal dramas - very soap opera from an audience perspective actually.
Quote from: jibbajibba;321878Is this a game as in a game you play for fun or is it a game you play as part of a 12step therapy plan or a training program for social workers/police officers etc. This is a genuine request as I actually think there would be some genuine use in it as a therapy or training tool.
A game like Drunk (which is about an alcoholic's impact on his family) isn't escapist entertainment, so by that definition it isn't fun. But it can be cathartic, enlightening, surprising, funny at times, and give the participants empathy for people trapped in those relationships. It isn't a therapeutic tool, though, by any stretch, and it isn't psychodrama. It's a game; you play a series of characters, there are rules and an end point.
A game like The Upgrade! is totally played for fun. All the situations are completely over the top, it spoofs reality television, and it always gets ridiculous. There's a core of real human relationships, though, and I've seen games that were weirdly touching - a married couple realizing that they each need to move on can be played for laughs, but doesn't have to be.
Quote from: Jason Morningstar;321997A game like Drunk (which is about an alcoholic's impact on his family) isn't escapist entertainment, so by that definition it isn't fun. But it can be cathartic, enlightening, surprising, funny at times, and give the participants empathy for people trapped in those relationships. It isn't a therapeutic tool, though, by any stretch, and it isn't psychodrama. It's a game; you play a series of characters, there are rules and an end point.
Something like this is pretty much the
definition of psychodrama.
ie: "Psychodrama is a form... which explores, through dramatic action, the problems, issues, concerns, dreams and highest aspirations of people, groups, systems and organizations."
Rules and an endpoint don't make it a game, they simply define the paramters at which point you stop aping the issue at hand.
Psychodrama is a therapeutic tool used by mental health professionals. As I said, Jeepform is not a therapeutic tool.
Anyway, I'm happy to answer questions about Jeepform if anybody has any.
Psychodrama is not defined by who does it, it is defined by what it is. I'm not saying you guys don't honestly enjoy it (for whatever reason), but in the end, it is exactly what it is.
Quote from: Jason Morningstar;322002Anyway, I'm happy to answer questions about Jeepform if anybody has any.
Why does it seem so hard to tell what Jeepform is?
Quote from: boulet;322011Why does it seem so hard to tell what Jeepform is?
I think part of it is writing in a non-native language, straight up. Also, the range is pretty broad. Vi åker jeep is a collective, and individual members are going in their own directions from a common source. Describing the game play and body of techniques used in one game may not prepare you for another. And there's an experiential component as well - it makes a lot more sense after trying it, or even observing it. Sorry, I know that's weak sauce but it is true.
My personal definition: Jeepform is a structured freeform mode of play built from a body of techniques emerging from, and reacting to, both LARP and tabletop traditions.
Quote from: Jason Morningstar;322017I think part of it is writing in a non-native language, straight up. Also, the range is pretty broad. Vi åker jeep is a collective, and individual members are going in their own directions from a common source. Describing the game play and body of techniques used in one game may not prepare you for another. And there's an experiential component as well - it makes a lot more sense after trying it, or even observing it. Sorry, I know that's weak sauce but it is true.
My personal definition: Jeepform is a structured freeform mode of play built from a body of techniques emerging from, and reacting to, both LARP and tabletop traditions.
Would it be easier to say it is a form of improvisational theater focused on the exploration of real world issues where the primary audience is the other participants?
Probably more accurate as well.
Also: not a game.
Jeep games as a rule are heavily moderated, more than Johnstone-style improv even. There's a level of transparency that's generally impossible in improv. It's a different beast, although some techniques are helpful in both. The Upgrade! is the most "improv-y" game I've played, and apparently works quite well in front of an audience. Of course it's structured as a television show so maybe that's not surprising.
Quote from: J Arcane;321978I want to hear this story immediately. It sounds much more interesting than more Morningstar shilling and pretentious Finnish wankery.
http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/
Arneson came into a Braunstein game set on a tropical island on the cusp of revolution in a minor role as a peaceful revolutionary. Instead of playing that role, he convinced everyone he was a CIA agent and that the island's treasury would be safest in his hands. He got points for distributing leaflets, but ignored that condition until the end of the game when he was flying away in a helicopter with the treasury, when he dumped all his leaflets out the windows and earned several thousand points.
Quote from: Abyssal Maw;322019Also: not a game.
Except both therapist and educators often use "games" in this vein as tools. Actors engaging in improv games, even if its hardcore psychodrama, are enjoying this training.
Morningstar is correct - jeepform is NOT a therapeutic or acting tool, but it shares much in common with such tools. Which is not surprising, the common ancestry is strong and the new thoughts in these areas have certainly bled over to each other.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;322024http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/
Arneson came into a Braunstein game set on a tropical island on the cusp of revolution in a minor role as a peaceful revolutionary. Instead of playing that role, he convinced everyone he was a CIA agent and that the island's treasury would be safest in his hands. He got points for distributing leaflets, but ignored that condition until the end of the game when he was flying away in a helicopter with the treasury, when he dumped all his leaflets out the windows and earned several thousand points.
Heh heh. Fun story. Could've done without the reporter's revisionist attempt to claim Arneson and Wesely as one of their own however. THe article sort of goes off into la la land there towards the end.
Quote from: Jason Morningstar;322017My personal definition: Jeepform is a structured freeform mode of play built from a body of techniques emerging from, and reacting to, both LARP and tabletop traditions.
"Structured freeform", huh? No wonder no one can figure out what jeepform is supposed to mean. Around these parts, that's what we call a contradiction in terms.
Sorry, I could be clearer. So if freeform is open-ended play without a formal structure, structured freeform adds conditions to that - a GM, an end state, specific techniques, thematic constraints and so forth as appropriate, without going all the way to a fully structured activity like LARP or tabletop play.
For example, in The Upgrade! the play space is divided into past, present and future areas, and the game is organized into several clear sections, and there are particular activities the characters are asked to engage in. These constraints provide structure and creative hooks for players to build on, but when none of them are in active use, players have freeform-level freedom to invent and interact.
Functionally, I think the best description of Jeepform is that it is a small low-mechanics LARP where players can switch or modify the scene -- and that has a bias toward the mundane rather than action/adventure or fantasy/sci-fi.
Enjoying mundane drama for entertainment really isn't that strange. While gamers tend to be fantasy/sci-fi fans, there are lots of people in the world who enjoy straight drama or romance in books and movies.
That's a good definition.
I know Tobias and Frederik are working on a game that includes a gun, a murder, and a ghost, so the whole "mundane" thing may have reached its practical limit!
Quote from: Jason Morningstar;322908That's a good definition.
I know Tobias and Frederik are working on a game that includes a gun, a murder, and a ghost, so the whole "mundane" thing may have reached its practical limit!
However, there appears to be no practical limit to how incredibly fucking stupid an idea can become.
EDIT: For whoever asked in the other thread, this is exactly what misery-tourism entails:
http://jeepen.org/games/mother/
The game is about a family just like yours. Except not quite. It is about a family where the mother turns a deaf ear to what's happening, denies the footsteps outside her daughter's room when she is sleeping in front of the TV. The door opening. Closing. Abuse that's been going on for as long as her daughter can remember. Perhaps from the very beginning. The game is about a mother that somehow sacrifices a child that she loves. About a child screaming for help, starving herself. And about a father that's living an OK life. Really.
And is it really so simple to do the right thing. Even after you turned away once?
Players:three, no GM
Playing time:approx. 1 hour
Capsule summary:Simple, clean game with some powerful stuff. No abuse scenes or anything, just conversations and excuses.
Premiered:Fastaval, 2008
Mother is pretty intense. It's set up so that you can only talk about or around the abuse, which is a really elegant technique. I couldn't play this, and I have a hard time imagining it being played outside of the Nordic countries, really. I think there are cultural barriers to even approaching this topic in this format.
Quote from: StormBringer;323016However, there appears to be no practical limit to how incredibly fucking stupid an idea can become.
EDIT: For whoever asked in the other thread, this is exactly what misery-tourism entails:
http://jeepen.org/games/mother/
The game is about a family just like yours. Except not quite. It is about a family where the mother turns a deaf ear to what's happening, denies the footsteps outside her daughter's room when she is sleeping in front of the TV. The door opening. Closing. Abuse that's been going on for as long as her daughter can remember. Perhaps from the very beginning. The game is about a mother that somehow sacrifices a child that she loves. About a child screaming for help, starving herself. And about a father that's living an OK life. Really.
And is it really so simple to do the right thing. Even after you turned away once?
Players:three, no GM
Playing time:approx. 1 hour
Capsule summary:Simple, clean game with some powerful stuff. No abuse scenes or anything, just conversations and excuses.
Premiered:Fastaval, 2008
I think this game would be more fun if it was based on Albert Brook's
Mother....
Regards,
David R
Quote from: StormBringer;323016The game is about a family just like yours. Except not quite. It is about a family where the mother turns a deaf ear to what's happening, denies the footsteps outside her daughter's room when she is sleeping in front of the TV. The door opening. Closing. Abuse that's been going on for as long as her daughter can remember. Perhaps from the very beginning. The game is about a mother that somehow sacrifices a child that she loves. About a child screaming for help, starving herself. And about a father that's living an OK life. Really.
That's supposed to be fun and what passes for entertainment? That's not a game. It sounds more like acting out abuse fantasies.
Quote from: brettmb;323261That's supposed to be fun and what passes for entertainment? That's not a game. It sounds more like acting out abuse fantasies.
Definitely misery tourism. I am not convinced that this Jeepform thing has anything to do with 'games' anyway, let alone 'entertainment'.
Maybe Jeepform is Finnish for 'Forge LARP'. :)
I can't wait to debut my jeepform game - My Life As Earl. It's about a group of skateboarders who discover the karmic effects of doing nothing. Players sit around talking about staging a hobby shop heist to aid a friend who has suffered a groin injury after appearing in a FOX special, all the while dodging and passing karma points dreading the inevitable phase of Shit Happens. It's cinematic in nature, meaning it would help if you have seen Kevin Smith movies.
Regards,
David R
Maybe there's a disconnect in terminology. I don't think the fun you are talking about is the fun that a Jeep game (at least a heavier one) provides. I think it's a limitation of English that we say "I enjoyed that" after a deeply satisfying experience, whether the fictional content was beating up flying monkeys or wrestling with alcoholism.
Quote from: David R;323291I can't wait to debut my jeepform game - My Life As Earl. It's about a group of skateboarders who discover the karmic effects of doing nothing. Players sit around talking about staging a hobby shop heist to aid a friend who has suffered a groin injury after appearing in a FOX special, all the while dodging and passing karma points dreading the inevitable phase of Shit Happens. It's cinematic in nature, meaning it would help if you have seen Kevin Smith movies.
Regards,
David R
Win. But only if you include Jenga somehow.
Quote from: Jason Morningstar;323293Maybe there's a disconnect in terminology. I don't think the fun you are talking about is the fun that a Jeep game (at least a heavier one) provides. I think it's a limitation of English that we say "I enjoyed that" after a deeply satisfying experience, whether the fictional content was beating up flying monkeys or wrestling with alcoholism.
It's misery tourism. Is this exercise supposed to lead to more people getting involved with child abuse issues? Are there any pamphlets available at the time to contact a local child abuse organization and donate money or time? Or is this some bullshit self-satisfying experience where you can claim you have been through a 'situation', except that it doesn't even vaguely resemble an actual case of abuse in any way, shape or form?
It's the whole 'detached and analytical' undercurrent that invalidates the entire concept. Talking
to an actual abuse survivor is intense. Talking
about a fictional abuse survivor is mental masturbation. If everyday life is too dirty to come down from your ivory towers to engage with, fine. But let's not pretend sitting around the living room talking about an imaginary instance of abuse has any connection whatsoever with the reality of abuse. Take the hour you would have spent giving each other a tug job for your egos and volunteer at a shelter for abuse victims.
No matter how lavishly I describe hewing an orc, it doesn't follow that I am able to pick up a sword and start hacking my way through crowds of people.
Quote from: StormBringer;323324Win. But only if you include Jenga somehow.
Nah, man. I'm using the
trashcan system. Conflict is resolved by tearing pages from a game book everyone else seems to be enjoying, crushing them into balls and throwing them into a waste paper basket from certain specified distances - that's the GM's call. I'm ahead of the curve.
Regards,
David R
Trashcan just sounds like pseudo GM Fiat to me, David. I think you should use the toilet seat tortue method. Slam a toilet seat down on the players genitals; if they don't scream, they succeed. For very difficult tasks, either slam the seat down harder, or do it multiple times. This will also serve to put the players in touch with Earl's groin pain.
Quote from: Aos;323340Trashcan just sounds like pseudo GM Fiat to me, David. I think you should use the toilet seat tortue method. Slam a toilet seat down on the players genitals; if they don't scream, they succeed. For very difficult tasks, either slam the seat down harder, or do it multiple times. This will also serve to put the players in touch with Earl's groin pain.
How do you calculate a botch? Castration?
That would be uncivilized.
Blood in the toilet water will do just fine.
Also how about a Toyotaform? Jeeps are maintenance nightmares.
Quote from: David R;323338Nah, man. I'm using the trashcan system. Conflict is resolved by tearing pages from a game book everyone else seems to be enjoying, crushing them into balls and throwing them into a waste paper basket from certain specified distances - that's the GM's call. I'm ahead of the curve.
Regards,
David R
I like it, it's a good start, but more emo would be better. You have to tear pages out of your poetry diary and toss them in an incinerator a GM specified distance away.
Quote from: Aos;323343That would be uncivilized.
Blood in the toilet water will do just fine.
I would go with the ability to remain conscious. If you pass out after having your junk crushed by the toilet seat, not only do you fail the task, you are loaded on a bus with a one way ticket to Tijuana in a miniskirt and tube top.
Quote from: StormBringer;323347I like it, it's a good start, but more emo would be better. You have to tear pages out of your poetry diary and toss them in an incinerator a GM specified distance away.
I dunno. I'm wary about going too emo because I'm not sure it accurately reflects the culture of skateboarders ? I do agree that Aos's toilet seat system generally corresponds to the potty nature of the genre but how does one determine verisimilitude in this instance ?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;323352I dunno. I'm wary about going too emo because I'm not sure it accurately reflects the culture of skateboarders ? I do agree that Aos's toilet seat system generally corresponds to the potty nature of the genre but how does one determine verisimilitude in this instance ?
Regards,
David R
Yeah, I totally forgot about the skateborder bit. You have to tear pages out of your classic Thrasher magazine collection.
If anybody is actually curious about Jeepform, feel free to PM me or track me down elsewhere.
I apologize Jason. I was just having a bit of fun. It all just sounds a bit too intense and educational. I like games that throw up interesting questions but all this sounds a bit too out there for me. Good job on answering questions on your part though.
Regards,
David R
Thanks David, I appreciate that. I totally agree that Jeepform is a little out there. At the edges it's not even for me! I definitely see the value in pushing the boundaries of theme and form though, and I've learned some cool techniques from it.
Quote from: Aos;323344Also how about a Toyotaform? Jeeps are maintenance nightmares.
Yeah, see that's what's bothering me. If this had been "freeform" then it wouldn't have bugged me and I could've stopped reading a couple of posts in. But "jeep" already means something. Please tell them they're doing it wrong.
"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya, THE PRINCESS BRIDE