Quote from: Future Villain Band;787548What's the difference between a gamer and a member of ISIS?  

One of them is a misogynist who resents all women, hasn't taken a bath in a while, and makes preposterous, overblown statements online while not standing a chance in hell of accomplishing anything with their life in the long-term, and the others are members of a foreign jihadist group!

Thanks, folks, try the veal.

Maybe because unlike ISIS gamers are not chopping off the heads of actual journalist.  Seriously your joke is bullshit and it is that attitude that will kill gaming journalism.

Quote from: Doom;787547Career? Most "game journalists" are 20somethings looking to score a free game or two. It's as much a "career" as mowing a lawn once a week.

I guess I'm just ignorant here, because I'm unaware of any "Game Journalist United Front" where game journalists present a formal opinion that offends you so.

Perhaps I can get some links or enlightenment?

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate
And before you ask "KYM?!?", it's the only place I've seen that hasn't had someone come in and just start erasing shit wholesale.

Quote from: Snowman0147;787555Maybe because unlike ISIS gamers are not chopping off the heads of actual journalist.  Seriously your joke is bullshit and it is that attitude that will kill gaming journalism.

Q: Why aren't gamers chopping the heads off of gaming journalists?

A: Because gaming journalists aren't real journalists!  And gamers would have to do something other than post rape-threats on Twitter from their laptop to find a journalist and behead them!

Seriously, anybody who non-sarcastically says gamers are worse than ISIS is not worth talking about, and anybody who thinks that people saying that gamers are as bad as ISIS is a real issue to be upset about, they need to read a newspaper and worry about real issues.  

Even this Phil Fish thing -- I mean, it's a dude who makes indie-games.  If Ford tells me that they're not going to make any cars anymore because they're mad at gamers, I'll worry about it.  If EA says they're not going to release next year's Madden because "SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS!!!" then I'll sweat it.  Some dude who released a game I never played isn't going to make games anymore because a bunch of dudes want to make rape and murder threats from anonymous accounts, enh, I'll live.  I'm more worried about the anonymous churls who have decided it's okay to terrorize people, but my suspicion is they'll use anything as an excuse, and the fact that this issue is about videogames has little to do with it.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;787552Also, sorry to any people who actually do judge beauty contests.  I know it's not like that, either.  I've seen Miss Congeniality, I know a lot of beauty contests are actually traps to catch murderers.

Best not to post when drunk, mate.

Anyhoo, what the flying fuck has this thread got to do with Pundit or RPGs?

I'll consider moving it to other games, or i'll close it. Up to you lot.

Your problem, Future Villain Band, is that you think all the death threats are just coming from gamers.  It isn't.  The death threats are also coming from social justice warriors as well and that only proves how much of a hypocrite they are.

Do gamers have trolls in their ranks.  Yes they do, but here is the difference.  The gamers hate their trolls and would ban them in a heart beat if they could.  Gamers tell other gamers not to send death threats because that hurt gamers as a whole.  Fact is gamers that do care hate their trolls on their side and are trying to fix the problem.

What nobody ever sees is social justice warriors telling other social justice warriors to stop it with the death threats.  You don't see social justice warriors banning other social justice warriors for acting like trolls.  You never see social justice warriors do any thing to fix their side.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;787639Q: Why aren't gamers chopping the heads off of gaming journalists?

A: Because gaming journalists aren't real journalists!  And gamers would have to do something other than post rape-threats on Twitter from their laptop to find a journalist and behead them!

Or, perhaps, because gamers wouldn't go around cutting people's heads off, no matter the circumstances?

I mean, I don't know why, but for some reason I tend to think hacking off another person's head is a fairly extreme action. Most people wouldn't do it.

QuoteSeriously, anybody who non-sarcastically says gamers are worse than ISIS is not worth talking about...

Unfortunately, he's one of the people who make a living talking about games, and gets to direct where that conversation goes.

Quote...and anybody who thinks that people saying that gamers are as bad as ISIS is a real issue to be upset about, they need to read a newspaper and worry about real issues.

...obviously, there's no need to talk about rape, while there's murder going on in the world.
Yeah, that's a Slippery Slope. I won't argue that saying "a lack of journalistic integrity and ethics" is as important as "crazy fuckers who chop off peoples heads". The latter is obviously more gruesome and repulsive. The former is more likely to affect me, however. So telling someone they have no right or relevancy to complain about something, is highly subjective.

QuoteEven this Phil Fish thing -- I mean, it's a dude who makes indie-games.  If Ford tells me that they're not going to make any cars anymore because they're mad at gamers, I'll worry about it.  If EA says they're not going to release next year's Madden because "SOCIAL JUSTICE WARRIORS!!!" then I'll sweat it.  

Except EA has brought on Anita Sarkeesian as a Consultant for their games, strictly on her basis of being a SJW critic. She's not a programmer, or even a developer; she is strictly a critic.

QuoteSome dude who released a game I never played isn't going to make games anymore because a bunch of dudes want to make rape and murder threats from anonymous accounts, enh, I'll live.

I'll live, but I still think it's shitty behavior.

QuoteI'm more worried about the anonymous churls who have decided it's okay to terrorize people, but my suspicion is they'll use anything as an excuse, and the fact that this issue is about videogames has little to do with it.

That may be true; it is however being used as a smokescreen to avoid having to discuss a relevant critique, and more so, to cast doubt on the validity of that critique, by guilt of association.

Quote from: One Horse TownAnyhoo, what the flying fuck has this thread got to do with Pundit or RPGs?

I'll consider moving it to other games, or i'll close it. Up to you lot.

Only very tangentially.
The (SJW) Gaming Press are running a smear campaign against their critics in #GamerGate, in a manner similar to what the RPG SJW's tried against Pundit and Zak (unlike Pundit and Zak, I "DO" figure some of the threats made against Zoe and Anita ARE valid; there's just some serious fucked-up people on the Web; I however, have some doubt it being statistically relevant to a larger conversation, and they keep trying to move it to "Misogyny!" rather than the argument being made.)

I suppose it's bigger relevance would be, "This could be our future (RPG's), if SJW's get to control our media."

Quote from: Future Villain Band;787551I suspect the problem is that the amount of power people think game journalists wield, and the bar for entry in the profession, is completely at odds with the actual power that they have to shape opinions or get hired.  Much like game designers or writers in the RPG field, really.

"The politics are so vicious because the stakes are so small" used to be about academic politics; these days I think it's a good general maxim.

Quote from: nightwind1;787148This is the only Phil Fish I've ever heard of...

Isn't that Tessio, the backstabber that betrayed Michael?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Tessio

FVB, you are a good guy but sarcasm is a scalpel not a bludgeon ! And people who send violence/rape/death threats for something as trivial as video games are totaly messed up and criminals.

Quote from: Novastar;787663Only very tangentially.
The (SJW) Gaming Press are running a smear campaign against their critics in #GamerGate, in a manner similar to what the RPG SJW's tried against Pundit and Zak (unlike Pundit and Zak, I "DO" figure some of the threats made against Zoe and Anita ARE valid; there's just some serious fucked-up people on the Web; I however, have some doubt it being statistically relevant to a larger conversation, and they keep trying to move it to "Misogyny!" rather than the argument being made.)

I suppose it's bigger relevance would be, "This could be our future (RPG's), if SJW's get to control our media."

Pundit is one of the most widely disliked guys in gaming, having been booted from a ton of forums, and all of the people who despise him haven't stopped anyone from letting him write books.  Zak is controversial, I guess, and if he wanted to make another book in the vein of whatever-that-city-thing-he-wrote-is, heck, I'd even buy it.  I liked that city thing.  Jim Desborough is not just a writer of controversial things, but also a terrible writer, but he self-publishes so nobody can stop him from abusing the printed word again and again.  DTRPG still carries his shit.  If they didn't, he could set up a web store and sell it, like a bunch of companies do who have nothing to do with DTRPG.

Shit, I think even FATAL is still in print.  If it's not, the guys who wrote it could still set up a webstore and sell it.  And FATAL is pretty much the definition of crap.

Even if tomorrow, there was some kind of bizarre revolution and all those people who you call SJWs took over the Internet, all of the people with unpopular views from the majority would still have forums to post in and stores to sell their shit, and probably game companies willing to hire them.  It's a small hobby, and it's so small and garage-based at this point that you'd have to kill somebody to stop them from producing games if you didn't like them, and so far, proscription hasn't seriously been discussed anywhere that I've seen.


I mean, the whole thing requires the question -- what the fuck would real gaming journalism look like, anyway?  We've had this histrionic shit for so long, I don't think people would buy real gaming journalism.  It'd seem boring compared to all this conspiratorial shit.

Internet warps shut-in's view of reality, film at 11.

Oh, and for the record OHT, I do think this should be in "Other Games"; it's all video game related, beyond the use of SJW being used by one side against the other, and Pundit already said he wasn't interested when it was "The Quinnspiracy", before it morphed into "GamerGate" (though I think the aims shifted between those two).

Quote from: Novastar;787634http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/gamergate
And before you ask "KYM?!?", it's the only place I've seen that hasn't had someone come in and just start erasing shit wholesale.

I read the link...still not seeing it. I'll buy Quinn (one person) was doing some inappropriate things with some game journalists (regarding one person's game)...I'll buy that 4chan tried to mobilize people against gamers (4chan really isn't a consortium of game journalists, however)...I'll buy the mods of 4chan are "not the best" (gee whiz, lots of sites have questionable moderation, and, again, 4chan aren't game journalists).

But where's the Game Journalist's Union or *something* that would give me the slightest reason to believe even a significant proportion of game journalists are anything beyond dudes that play and happen to review games?

Quote from: Snowman0147;787652Do gamers have trolls in their ranks.  Yes they do, but here is the difference.  The gamers hate their trolls and would ban them in a heart beat if they could.  Gamers tell other gamers not to send death threats because that hurt gamers as a whole.  Fact is gamers that do care hate their trolls on their side and are trying to fix the problem.

Not to completely doubt your assertion, but no true gamer would permit the trolling or verbal harassment of people (often women) during and out of play?

I think it's more honest to admit that "gamers" are a lot of different people, and that while they are the solution, they are also the problem.

Quote from: JamesV;787731Not to completely doubt your assertion, but no true gamer would permit the trolling or verbal harassment of people (often women) during and out of play?

I think it's more honest to admit that "gamers" are a lot of different people, and that while they are the solution, they are also the problem.

By that line of logic you could say activists are the cause and solution to social justice warriors.  You and I know that is bullshit.  No person that truly want to have equality desire a group of people that goes out and demand superiority that is disguised as equality.  No activist is to blame for the actions of social justice warrior and bless those activists that call out on the bullshit.

Same can be said for gamers.  In fact gamers (both players and developers) been trying to get rid of the trolls for decades.  League of Legends even has a court system for this very reason.  We have small communities that out right ban trolls and given people the power to be administrators to watch over online matches.  Gamers as a whole did a lot of things to fight off trolls other than shutting off the internet.

Which by the way the trolls existed long before the first game that had a online mode was even made.  So this isn't even something that gamers even created.  Instead it is like a predator that can adapt to its ever changing environment.