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Baldurs Gate 3 loves degenerates

Started by GeekyBugle, July 08, 2023, 03:27:49 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Effete

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 06, 2023, 09:45:54 PM
You mock now. But just you wait till the sea of people marrying their dogs and their horses comes in because you failed to strongly condemn a toss away sex scene between a vampire and a druid shapeshited into a bear that you can't even access unless you go through a bunch of text options in (what I'm assuming is a side quest in) a video game. When your neighbor, your brother and your boss come ask you to greet their new donkey spouse, don't say we didn't warn you! THIS IS ON YOU!

I DON'T mock !!!

I'm a changed man now, and you freedom-loving HEATHENS will burn upon the pyre of my once-beloved, now-reviled DnD collection. And the smoke of your sinner-flesh will rise to Heaven and the skies will part and God will bestow upon me the Rod of Censure, so that I may ban everything that is a personal affront to me. And all those that oppose shall be deemed Twatwaffles! Can I get a 'Wahmen?"


ForgottenF

#212
Quote from: Psyckosama on August 06, 2023, 09:09:33 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 06, 2023, 08:51:38 PM
Presumably we've all seen it. The other major points: the non-binary character options,

Who cares? They're not making you choose it.

Y'all are trying to make me out as much more upset about all this than I actually am. That is in fact precisely what I'll do, if and when I start playing the game.

That said, to those of us who retain a certain skepticism about the legitimacy of the entire gender-critical paradigm, it's always going to be a slight annoyance to see it creeping ever more towards being a universally unquestioned doctrine.

Quote from: Psyckosama on August 06, 2023, 09:09:33 PM
Quotethe dong slider,

*points to 2077* Did it first, did it better, didn't hear anyone crying over it, and frankly, M rated game so I give zero fucks.

I'm curious what you mean by "did it better". Is it just that Cyberpunk had an uncircumsized option? The reaction I recall to that was mostly rolled eyes and jokes, which as I noted before, is also the predominant reaction I'm seeing to BG3.

And if we're going to have a dong slider, is a titty slider too much to ask for?

Quote from: Psyckosama on August 06, 2023, 09:09:33 PM
QuoteLarian bitching about players making white guy characters,

If you actually read the quote they're not bitching about "OMG not inclusive" but more complaining their weird body parts aren't getting any traction.

They're not saying white men are evil... they're saying their player base are a bunch of boring ass normies. Difference is subtle but profound.

https://i.redd.it/smjbasi998s51.png

Okay, I'm prepared to assume the malice there was more on the part of the journalists reporting it than the developer. I would still happily disagree with the implication that a regular humanoid is an inherently inferior character choice to a rainbow demon-creature.

Quote from: Psyckosama on August 06, 2023, 09:09:33 PM
Quote
You'd have been on stronger ground if you'd referenced the "Book of Erotic Fantasy", which does get very explicit. Even there, some parts of the book are actually rather quaint compared to standard internet discourse today. On point, it includes this table:



It also lists Homosexuality on its table of "Common Cultural Taboos", which would be nigh inconceivable in a D&D supplement today.

Not official, sadly. In fact they put up a hell of a stink about it back in the day.

I don't know about "sadly". One of the charms of the OGL was the wild west atmosphere it created in supplemental books. Plus, it's not like the Book of Erotic Fantasy was a terribly useful game supplement. The authors seem to have been sincere, but I recall everyone else treating it as a meme.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 06, 2023, 09:35:32 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 06, 2023, 08:51:38 PMInterestingly, the same table includes "Sex while shape-changed, polymorphed, reverse gendered or otherwise altered in form", so you are at least right that someone had conceived of a similar scenario back in the 3.0 days.

There are real life myths of gods, like Zeus or Loki, having sex while shape shifted. So people have been conceiving of a similar scenarios for thousands of years.

Yeah, there's probably a whole book to be written on pseudo-bestiality in ancient myth. I'm not the guy to write that book, though.  There's also a surprising amount of gender-bending in ancient myths too, as I recall. I've always been skeptical of anyone who presumes to map those myths 1-to-1 onto a modern context, though. (Not that I'm accusing you of that.) the mere fact that it is ancient myth means you have to be extremely careful about assuming what it meant to the people who came up with it.

EDITED to fix some formatting and clumsy verbiage.

Reckall

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 06, 2023, 10:13:09 PM
Quote from: Psyckosama on August 06, 2023, 09:09:33 PM
Quote
You'd have been on stronger ground if you'd referenced the "Book of Erotic Fantasy", which does get very explicit. Even there, some parts of the book are actually rather quaint compared to standard internet discourse today. On point, it includes this table:



It also lists Homosexuality on its table of "Common Cultural Taboos", which would be nigh inconceivable in a D&D supplement today.

Not official, sadly. In fact they put up a hell of a stink about it back in the day.

I don't know about "sadly". One of the charms of the OGL was the wild west atmosphere it created in supplemental books. Plus, it's not like the Book of Erotic Fantasy was a terribly useful game supplement. The authors seem to have been sincere, but I recall everyone else treating it as a meme.
I actually have it and it was an interesting read. I never used it, to be clear, but it was a serious attempt at defining/imagining sex life in a fantasy setting. Dunno about the reactions at the time. However, you can find Tolkien's ideas about sex between Elves in "The Nature of Middle-earth" (I mean... Tolkien for the win :D!)

Regarding Homosexuality, I agree for it to be in a list of "common taboos" in a medieval setting. Regarding "Bestiality", however, I fully agree that it should be condemned in its literal sense. A specific druidic ceremony can be still considered something different.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 06, 2023, 09:35:32 PM
There are real life myths of gods, like Zeus or Loki, having sex while shape shifted. So people have been conceiving of a similar scenarios for thousands of years.

Even if in most cases it could be considered rape.
For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Reckall

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 09:33:00 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2023, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 08:36:27 PM

As soon as Lefties start pushing for bestiality laws, I'll be right there, shoulder to shoulder with you, waving my pitchfork.

No, you won't.  By that point, you'll be pointing at all of the depictions of bestiality in media and games and saying, "What's the big deal?  Nobody thinks this is a big deal now.  The time to have objected to this was when it first started.  At this point it's useless to complain..."

The normalization is far more advanced than some are willing to admit, google "woman marries her dog" (not at work).

There was also a lot of women? posting on the twatter about fucking their dogs. Not sure if those were real or just trolls tho.

Like you say, until it's too late they will be happy to call the likes of me all kinds of names and then will pretend to be shocked when they start pushing pedo friendly laws and bestiality friendly laws, or will shrug and carry on.

You do seem to believe that if "fucking your dog" becomes a fad, more people will fuck their dog. 100 videos of people fucking dogs won't make me a "dog gigolo" (and I hope not to see them in the first place).

I.e. you seem to believe in some sort of "Exposition leads to behaviour ---> No exposition will curtail that behaviour". This is both "A Clockwork Orange" (and it didn't worked even in a "Clockwork Orange") and a very delusional belief of how our brain works. Putting something in the open only makes more people to come out of their closet - as their taboo now seems to be accepted - but I don't think that the overall percentage of (LGBTQ+, Bear fuckers, dudes doing it while parachuting...) increases. A dog doesn't arouse me - full stop. The closest I ever was to "degenerate perversion" were those times when I met a truly interesting man and I thought "Pity: if I was a woman this would have been someone special". I still was never aroused by men.

I agree that social media are making all sort of people to come out of the woodwork. This doesn't mean that they are more than before: before they were simply in the woodwork.

I even agree that this is unhealthy for young people who still are in the delicate period of their life when you are seeking your own identity. At their age I had to "like" the Duran Duran and cry during "9 1/2 Weeks" or your hopes to score with a girl were basically nil. Today the "way you have to be" touches much serious topics. There is a terrible epidemic of mental health problems among young people - something that can be factually proven.

Still, "they/them blue whales on TikTok" are only one of the reason - unreasonably stricter parenting laws being a much bigger one. Once again, lot of lunatics getting more exposition simply generates the illusion that there are more lunatics and that they are generating much more. When we missed the memo that every. single. woke. movie. and. show. still. unavoidably. fails? Disney is on the verge of bankruptcy: it seems that, no, waving rainbow flags didn't make their IPs stronger, but actually obliterated them. The World, alas, is saner that they thought.

But... all the above it is about the real world (and, again, it seems that the "Clockwork Orange" approach doesn't work). Here you have a fictional scene with a bear who is actually a druid, played for laughs (the scene is a sort of The Big Bang Theory for 17+ area) and you can say no. On unrelated news, Que viva al sirviente de Asmodeus!!!! Astounding.

For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Ghostmaker

So some of you are missing a point.

What, exactly, does genital customization and romance between a vampire elf and a druid wildshaped into a bear bring to the story and game?

Effete

Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 07, 2023, 08:47:49 AM
So some of you are missing a point.

What, exactly, does genital customization and romance between a vampire elf and a druid wildshaped into a bear bring to the story and game?

Edgy shock humor, and little else.

BoxCrayonTales

Apparently it generates a huge increase in sales and interest? It currently has almost a million active players per day. I never realized how many perverts there really are!

VisionStorm

#218
Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 07, 2023, 08:47:49 AM
So some of you are missing a point.

What, exactly, does genital customization and romance between a vampire elf and a druid wildshaped into a bear bring to the story and game?

What does ANY type of customization, or obscure dialog options from a side quest bring into the story?

Not that anyone is really defending genital customization in any significant way (other than maybe Psyckosama at one point, and it wasn't even an endorsement, just "...it's been done in other games"). This discussion is about shapeshifted bear sex as a dialog option you have to dig through in a SIDE quest. Which I suppose actually qualifies as ""what it brings to the story", since this was apparently part of the unfolding romance between those characters.

And you don't even have to pick that option. It's just there as a goof as far as I can tell, not the endorsement of "bestiality" that people here have been hyperventilating about. Much the same way that the series "The Magicians" (which I've been watching recently) has a scene where two of the main characters have sex while shapeshifted as foxes, then it comes up a couple of times as comic relief later on. So I guess I've been endorsing "bestiality" without knowing it these past few weeks, cuz that was season 1 and I'm at season 3 now.

The downfall of Western Civilization to raging furries is on me!

Eirikrautha

#219
Quote from: Reckall on August 07, 2023, 12:01:01 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 09:33:00 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2023, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 08:36:27 PM

As soon as Lefties start pushing for bestiality laws, I'll be right there, shoulder to shoulder with you, waving my pitchfork.

No, you won't.  By that point, you'll be pointing at all of the depictions of bestiality in media and games and saying, "What's the big deal?  Nobody thinks this is a big deal now.  The time to have objected to this was when it first started.  At this point it's useless to complain..."

The normalization is far more advanced than some are willing to admit, google "woman marries her dog" (not at work).

There was also a lot of women? posting on the twatter about fucking their dogs. Not sure if those were real or just trolls tho.

Like you say, until it's too late they will be happy to call the likes of me all kinds of names and then will pretend to be shocked when they start pushing pedo friendly laws and bestiality friendly laws, or will shrug and carry on.

You do seem to believe that if "fucking your dog" becomes a fad, more people will fuck their dog. 100 videos of people fucking dogs won't make me a "dog gigolo" (and I hope not to see them in the first place).

I.e. you seem to believe in some sort of "Exposition leads to behaviour ---> No exposition will curtail that behaviour". This is both "A Clockwork Orange" (and it didn't worked even in a "Clockwork Orange") and a very delusional belief of how our brain works. Putting something in the open only makes more people to come out of their closet - as their taboo now seems to be accepted - but I don't think that the overall percentage of (LGBTQ+, Bear fuckers, dudes doing it while parachuting...) increases. A dog doesn't arouse me - full stop. The closest I ever was to "degenerate perversion" were those times when I met a truly interesting man and I thought "Pity: if I was a woman this would have been someone special". I still was never aroused by men.

I agree that social media are making all sort of people to come out of the woodwork. This doesn't mean that they are more than before: before they were simply in the woodwork.

I even agree that this is unhealthy for young people who still are in the delicate period of their life when you are seeking your own identity. At their age I had to "like" the Duran Duran and cry during "9 1/2 Weeks" or your hopes to score with a girl were basically nil. Today the "way you have to be" touches much serious topics. There is a terrible epidemic of mental health problems among young people - something that can be factually proven.

Still, "they/them blue whales on TikTok" are only one of the reason - unreasonably stricter parenting laws being a much bigger one. Once again, lot of lunatics getting more exposition simply generates the illusion that there are more lunatics and that they are generating much more. When we missed the memo that every. single. woke. movie. and. show. still. unavoidably. fails? Disney is on the verge of bankruptcy: it seems that, no, waving rainbow flags didn't make their IPs stronger, but actually obliterated them. The World, alas, is saner that they thought.

But... all the above it is about the real world (and, again, it seems that the "Clockwork Orange" approach doesn't work). Here you have a fictional scene with a bear who is actually a druid, played for laughs (the scene is a sort of The Big Bang Theory for 17+ area) and you can say no. On unrelated news, Que viva al sirviente de Asmodeus!!!! Astounding.

And yet, the well-documented rise in trans youth (based on influences in media, peers, and education) totally destroys your premise.  Not every medium is a strong influence.  Not every person is susceptible to every message (but most are way more susceptible than they believe).  But the Overton Window and normalization are real things.  And, apparently, the only time that people like you feel it is justified to stop such shifting of the Overton Window is at the beginning, because you cite all of the stuff that has happened before as if they are counter-claims...

EDIT:  Just to clarify the last sentence:  Earlier on this thread you and several others have provided examples of other "degenerate" behavior that is present in earlier iterations of RPGs and D&D as if the lack of push-back then somehow means that pushback against this degeneracy is somehow too late or hypocritical.  This is a non sequitur, but were I to take the complaint seriously, then opposition must occur (by your argument) at the first sign of degeneracy, no matter how innocuous, in order to be valid.  Thankfully, I reject this view, but it is the logical outcome of your complaints above.
"Testosterone levels vary widely among women, just like other secondary sex characteristics like breast size or body hair. If you eliminate anyone with elevated testosterone, it's like eliminating athletes because their boobs aren't big enough or because they're too hairy." -- jhkim

VisionStorm

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 07, 2023, 09:46:27 AM
Quote from: Reckall on August 07, 2023, 12:01:01 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 09:33:00 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2023, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 08:36:27 PM

As soon as Lefties start pushing for bestiality laws, I'll be right there, shoulder to shoulder with you, waving my pitchfork.

No, you won't.  By that point, you'll be pointing at all of the depictions of bestiality in media and games and saying, "What's the big deal?  Nobody thinks this is a big deal now.  The time to have objected to this was when it first started.  At this point it's useless to complain..."

The normalization is far more advanced than some are willing to admit, google "woman marries her dog" (not at work).

There was also a lot of women? posting on the twatter about fucking their dogs. Not sure if those were real or just trolls tho.

Like you say, until it's too late they will be happy to call the likes of me all kinds of names and then will pretend to be shocked when they start pushing pedo friendly laws and bestiality friendly laws, or will shrug and carry on.

You do seem to believe that if "fucking your dog" becomes a fad, more people will fuck their dog. 100 videos of people fucking dogs won't make me a "dog gigolo" (and I hope not to see them in the first place).

I.e. you seem to believe in some sort of "Exposition leads to behaviour ---> No exposition will curtail that behaviour". This is both "A Clockwork Orange" (and it didn't worked even in a "Clockwork Orange") and a very delusional belief of how our brain works. Putting something in the open only makes more people to come out of their closet - as their taboo now seems to be accepted - but I don't think that the overall percentage of (LGBTQ+, Bear fuckers, dudes doing it while parachuting...) increases. A dog doesn't arouse me - full stop. The closest I ever was to "degenerate perversion" were those times when I met a truly interesting man and I thought "Pity: if I was a woman this would have been someone special". I still was never aroused by men.

I agree that social media are making all sort of people to come out of the woodwork. This doesn't mean that they are more than before: before they were simply in the woodwork.

I even agree that this is unhealthy for young people who still are in the delicate period of their life when you are seeking your own identity. At their age I had to "like" the Duran Duran and cry during "9 1/2 Weeks" or your hopes to score with a girl were basically nil. Today the "way you have to be" touches much serious topics. There is a terrible epidemic of mental health problems among young people - something that can be factually proven.

Still, "they/them blue whales on TikTok" are only one of the reason - unreasonably stricter parenting laws being a much bigger one. Once again, lot of lunatics getting more exposition simply generates the illusion that there are more lunatics and that they are generating much more. When we missed the memo that every. single. woke. movie. and. show. still. unavoidably. fails? Disney is on the verge of bankruptcy: it seems that, no, waving rainbow flags didn't make their IPs stronger, but actually obliterated them. The World, alas, is saner that they thought.

But... all the above it is about the real world (and, again, it seems that the "Clockwork Orange" approach doesn't work). Here you have a fictional scene with a bear who is actually a druid, played for laughs (the scene is a sort of The Big Bang Theory for 17+ area) and you can say no. On unrelated news, Que viva al sirviente de Asmodeus!!!! Astounding.

And yet, the well-documented rise in trans youth (based on influences in media, peers, and education) totally destroys your premise.  Not every medium is a strong influence.  Not every person is susceptible to every message (but most are way more susceptible than they believe).  But the Overton Window and normalization are real things.  And, apparently, the only time that people like you feel it is justified to stop such shifting of the Overton Window is at the beginning, because you cite all of the stuff that has happened before as if they are counter-claims...

EDIT:  Just to clarify the last sentence:  Earlier on this thread you and several others have provided examples of other "degenerate" behavior that is present in earlier iterations of RPGs and D&D as if the lack of push-back then somehow means that pushback against this degeneracy is somehow too late or hypocritical.  This is a non sequitur, but were I to take the complaint seriously, then opposition must occur (by your argument) at the first sign of degeneracy, no matter how innocuous, in order to be valid.  Thankfully, I reject this view, but it is the logical outcome of your complaints above.

People have been systematically brainwashed by a runway ideology propped up by the mainstream media, social media algorithms, the use of mass censorship and extreme social pressure to silence all opposition, and bad actors infiltrating various levels of society from government to academia, to push a social constructivist agenda that frames sex as a social construct and targets children from a young age through an ideologically captured education system. Therefore some obscure shapeshifted sex scene included as a goof, accessible only through multiple dialog options in a side quest in a video game will lead to the normalization of bestiality in society if we don't stop this DEGENERACY!™ on its tracks before it's too late! Because it's the mere inclusion of toss away instances of Degenerate!™ behavior in media that influences people into extreme behavior, and not the systematic efforts of bad actors operating as a standalone complex with access to extensive resources and the backing of coopted institutions.

ForgottenF

Quote from: Effete on August 07, 2023, 09:10:23 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on August 07, 2023, 08:47:49 AM
So some of you are missing a point.

What, exactly, does genital customization and romance between a vampire elf and a druid wildshaped into a bear bring to the story and game?

Edgy shock humor, and little else.

Well, that and a significant boost in Larian's social credit with game journos and awards committees

Reckall

#222
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 07, 2023, 09:46:27 AM
Quote from: Reckall on August 07, 2023, 12:01:01 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 09:33:00 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2023, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 08:36:27 PM

As soon as Lefties start pushing for bestiality laws, I'll be right there, shoulder to shoulder with you, waving my pitchfork.

No, you won't.  By that point, you'll be pointing at all of the depictions of bestiality in media and games and saying, "What's the big deal?  Nobody thinks this is a big deal now.  The time to have objected to this was when it first started.  At this point it's useless to complain..."

The normalization is far more advanced than some are willing to admit, google "woman marries her dog" (not at work).

There was also a lot of women? posting on the twatter about fucking their dogs. Not sure if those were real or just trolls tho.

Like you say, until it's too late they will be happy to call the likes of me all kinds of names and then will pretend to be shocked when they start pushing pedo friendly laws and bestiality friendly laws, or will shrug and carry on.

You do seem to believe that if "fucking your dog" becomes a fad, more people will fuck their dog. 100 videos of people fucking dogs won't make me a "dog gigolo" (and I hope not to see them in the first place).

I.e. you seem to believe in some sort of "Exposition leads to behaviour ---> No exposition will curtail that behaviour". This is both "A Clockwork Orange" (and it didn't worked even in a "Clockwork Orange") and a very delusional belief of how our brain works. Putting something in the open only makes more people to come out of their closet - as their taboo now seems to be accepted - but I don't think that the overall percentage of (LGBTQ+, Bear fuckers, dudes doing it while parachuting...) increases. A dog doesn't arouse me - full stop. The closest I ever was to "degenerate perversion" were those times when I met a truly interesting man and I thought "Pity: if I was a woman this would have been someone special". I still was never aroused by men.

I agree that social media are making all sort of people to come out of the woodwork. This doesn't mean that they are more than before: before they were simply in the woodwork.

I even agree that this is unhealthy for young people who still are in the delicate period of their life when you are seeking your own identity. At their age I had to "like" the Duran Duran and cry during "9 1/2 Weeks" or your hopes to score with a girl were basically nil. Today the "way you have to be" touches much serious topics. There is a terrible epidemic of mental health problems among young people - something that can be factually proven.

Still, "they/them blue whales on TikTok" are only one of the reason - unreasonably stricter parenting laws being a much bigger one. Once again, lot of lunatics getting more exposition simply generates the illusion that there are more lunatics and that they are generating much more. When we missed the memo that every. single. woke. movie. and. show. still. unavoidably. fails? Disney is on the verge of bankruptcy: it seems that, no, waving rainbow flags didn't make their IPs stronger, but actually obliterated them. The World, alas, is saner that they thought.

But... all the above it is about the real world (and, again, it seems that the "Clockwork Orange" approach doesn't work). Here you have a fictional scene with a bear who is actually a druid, played for laughs (the scene is a sort of The Big Bang Theory for 17+ area) and you can say no. On unrelated news, Que viva al sirviente de Asmodeus!!!! Astounding.

And yet, the well-documented rise in trans youth (based on influences in media, peers, and education) totally destroys your premise.  Not every medium is a strong influence.  Not every person is susceptible to every message (but most are way more susceptible than they believe).  But the Overton Window and normalization are real things.  And, apparently, the only time that people like you feel it is justified to stop such shifting of the Overton Window is at the beginning, because you cite all of the stuff that has happened before as if they are counter-claims...
Actually it doesn't. True, it underlines the real question: are these people - who genuinely feel they are "living in the wrong sex" - now more comfortable in coming out of the closet, or are they taking a rash decision from where there is no coming back?

Regarding the second case, it is worth remembering how you don't just cut your balls (if man to woman): first there is a psychological evaluation, then you can simply start dressing and behaving like a different sex, then there are methods from which one can come back (like some forms of hormonal therapy). Surgery is simply the stronger option - but the individual has many opportunities to re-evaluate his choice before the nuclear strike.

In saner times the "regret percentage" was around 3%-6% - and it needed a few years before the individual realised that changing sex had been a mistake. Will this percentage increase in the future? We still can't tell, but there are some hints we can consider.

When psychologists all over the English speaking World (and this is important) started to be worried by an increase of mental health problems amid the youngs, the answer (by the usual NYT) was "No, actually this is a positive thing, the youngs speak more about depression and the like!" While this was true for many other things (including a more open willingness to talk about transgenderism), the ifactual markers that there was a mental health epidemic among the youngs were chilling: increase in self-harm, depression and suicides shot up to up 150%-200%. This was finally confirmed around early 2020 - and then COVID struck and made all of us a little more mad - each one in our own way - so we now literally have to start again.

Does this means that now youngs are more vulnerable to rash decisions in the normal need to "belong"? It is quite possible. Or maybe they are more open in considering a real need. The current polarization doesn't help. ("If you are not pro LGBTQ+ you have to die" "If you are not against LGBTQ+ you have to die") Still, the whole safety net before one does the irremediable is still in place, and I hope that it is being applied.

I hope that the Pundit is not coming to banham me, because the above is not only about the real world but our hobby too - including "If in a game as big as GTA V you can fuck a bear then the game, you and the World at range are all degenerates!!!!!11" While my instinctive answer is "Get a grip" I can't close my eyes on the fact that these kinds of total refusal are more tribal reactions against a positive openness (again: I have problems if they shove something down my throat, not if they give me and others our own choice) than anything else.

If you curious about how many of the things happening in modern popular culture have more complex sources and underlying reasons than usually understood, there is a nice summary made by Jonathan Haidt. It is "How we arrived to trigger warnings 101", but it is a good starting point.


For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

THE_Leopold

I'm all for options that i can ignore and have solid gameplay.  Want to play as your pansexual tiefling 3 nutted non-binary hybrid? Have fun, knock yourself out.

From what I see, read, and pay attention to once I get past character creation the rest of the story is fairly entertaining and a solid game.

NKL4Lyfe

Effete

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 07, 2023, 09:46:27 AM
And yet, the well-documented rise in trans youth (based on influences in media, peers, and education) totally destroys your premise.  Not every medium is a strong influence.  Not every person is susceptible to every message (but most are way more susceptible than they believe).  But the Overton Window and normalization are real things.  And, apparently, the only time that people like you feel it is justified to stop such shifting of the Overton Window is at the beginning, because you cite all of the stuff that has happened before as if they are counter-claims...

EDIT:  Just to clarify the last sentence:  Earlier on this thread you and several others have provided examples of other "degenerate" behavior that is present in earlier iterations of RPGs and D&D as if the lack of push-back then somehow means that pushback against this degeneracy is somehow too late or hypocritical.  This is a non sequitur, but were I to take the complaint seriously, then opposition must occur (by your argument) at the first sign of degeneracy, no matter how innocuous, in order to be valid.  Thankfully, I reject this view, but it is the logical outcome of your complaints above.

Except that it's the logical outcome of YOUR complaints, and we're only trying to point that out. You are the one complaining that the window of socially acceptable behavior has been shifting toward degeneracy, yet you conveniently refuse to accept that the window you prefer would be seen as degenerate to other societies/cultures. The Satanic Panic claimed that games with magic spells and demon worship would lead to Godlessness, and here we are in current year, where church attendance has dropped and secular religions have replaced traditional ones. So the Satanic Panic must have been right, and your willing participation in supporting such games MUST have contributed to the slow creep toward Godlessness. Right? Or do you have a Special Pleading argument for me about how your particular point of view is exempt from your own complaints?

Corelation does not equal causation. Killing people in games does not lead to increased homicide rates; summon demon spells do not lead to atheism; polymorphed sex scenes will not lead to increased bestiality. The primary-mover of the Overton Window is much more complex than you're trying to make it seem.

But I am curious... what do you propose the solution is to curb, or even reverse, this shift? I can speculate and infer things from the subtext of your posts, but I'd really rather hear you say it.