Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 06, 2023, 02:21:23 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 06, 2023, 02:14:30 PM
I don't have room to criticize the game's necrophiliac bestiality because I bought and played Lust from Beyond. The premise of which is that a mad alien monarch lobotomized his populace against their will so they could enjoy drug-fueled orgies without those pesky higher brain functions getting in the way. Meanwhile, the rebels were uniquely stripped of their feelings as punishment and its unclear how aware they are of their condition.

I bought and played Scorn. The premise is that the upper class had so many drug-fueled orgies that it tore a hole in reality that is slowly eating their capital city. Meanwhile, the engineer class was bred to be snorted as drugs: they rightfully rebelled, nuked the environment, then destroyed themselves in a civil war. All the architecture is made from the still-living bodies of a slave class grown on battery farms who may or may not still be aware after they have been processed.

A druid bear-fucking a vampire elf is small potatoes by comparison, I suppose.

I don't believe in censorship because it can and will be used against you when the tables inevitably turn. The best we can do right now is use age verification to protect kids, prosecute rapists, and ignore content we find revolting.

Who is asking for censorship?

No one's asking for censorship. We're just complaining profusely that this filthy Degenerate!™ game exists, and how anyone who disagrees or isn't outraged enough is "part of the problem" in allowing the "creeping degeneracy in the past" become what it is now. Which would NEVER lead to censorship once the people who think this way get into power, nor is it intended as a signal for people to ultimately demand that companies stop producing these games (which would NOT be censorship if and when that happens. Just like companies caving to SJW demands is not censorship).

Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 05:12:28 PMAnd that seems to be where people are cherry-picking here. The claim is that actions in the game bleed through into society at large.

Which is exactly what the SJW's claim about Degenerate!™, I mean, "problematic" elements in games. But no parallels here. Just people not demanding censorship (...yet).

QuoteNow the point I will concede is the use of the bear scene in marketing. That one, presumably obscure, outcome was intentionally released for promotional purposes. Why? Was it to generate a controversy and get eyes on the game? Was it to appeal to the fractional percentage point of the population that kinks on that? Who knows. It doesn't seem to have harmed the sales of the game, but it sure has sparked some discussion in corners of the internet where people salivate over the Culture War.

So it's not that the scene is in the game that is really the problem, but the fact they decided to push it to forefront is why it's become a wedge issue. Primarily because all the context that leads up to that scene has been removed. One way or another, people have been manipulated into having a gut reaction. A small number of people creamed in their bearsuits, while another small number of people clutched their pearls.

Yeah, concede this point as well. The company using the bear scene for promotional material is basically rubbing it on people's faces and inviting this kind of controversy. But from everything that I've seen so far it's apparently some tiny, side element of the game that people are making a mounting out of.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 06, 2023, 06:53:47 PM
Decades in the making; but they literally have people defending a positive depiction of Beastiality in videogames now.

No. People are saying "Either realise that it is all fictional make-believe with these choices not even imposed to you, or denounce both Bear Sex and being the gleeful servant of Asmodeus who goes around doing hellish things". Put up or shut up.

It's pissing off the corpos, which is at least one positive. I'm too sick of the cookie cutter fantasy genre to ever play another fantasy game in my lifetime, but it's nice to see the anti-consumer corpos getting mad.

Quote from: Reckall on August 06, 2023, 07:09:00 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on August 06, 2023, 06:53:47 PM
Decades in the making; but they literally have people defending a positive depiction of Beastiality in videogames now.

No. People are saying "Either realise that it is all fictional make-believe with these choices not even imposed to you, or denounce both Bear Sex and being the gleeful servant of Asmodeus who goes around doing hellish things". Put up or shut up.

How is being the gleeful servant of Asmodeus not completely Degenerate?

Evil PC's have been banned at gaming tables for decades make believe or not for good reason.

Continually bringing up endless other obvious degeneracies to denounce to muddy the waters will never be the rhetorical gotcha you are looking for.

Quote from: Reckall on August 06, 2023, 07:09:00 PM
"Either realise that it is all fictional make-believe."

BG3 has a positive depiction of Beasitality.

How does positively portraying Beastiality in a fictional make-believe video game make it not disgusting?

Why would anyone dismiss the inclusion of a positive depiction of Beastiality in a video as game 'not a big deal' instead of calling it out as the disgusting, gross, and unacceptable content that it is?

Quote from: Jaeger on August 06, 2023, 07:41:27 PM

Quote from: Reckall on August 06, 2023, 07:09:00 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on August 06, 2023, 06:53:47 PM
Decades in the making; but they literally have people defending a positive depiction of Beastiality in videogames now.

No. People are saying "Either realise that it is all fictional make-believe with these choices not even imposed to you, or denounce both Bear Sex and being the gleeful servant of Asmodeus who goes around doing hellish things". Put up or shut up.

How is being the gleeful servant of Asmodeus not completely Degenerate?

Then why BG and other RPGs have the possibility of playing evil servants to Demon Lords since the '80s (not to mention in the very BG3) but only Bear Sex has people screaming "Degenerateeeeeeeeees!!!! Where they touched by a bear when they were kids or what's up?

Quote
BG3 has a positive depiction of Beasitality.

How does positively portraying Beastiality in a fictional make-believe video game make it not disgusting?

Positively? Are you even aware that you can still be disgusted by the act and refuse to do it? (I don't even know if you can expel that character from your party, or worse).

Quote
Why would anyone dismiss the inclusion of a positive depiction of Beastiality in a video as game 'not a big deal' instead of calling it out as the disgusting, gross, and unacceptable content that it is?

How to say "I didn't play the game" with fifteen times the words...

Quote from: Jaeger on August 06, 2023, 06:17:30 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 05:12:28 PM
...
Except that by chopping that quote in half, you changed the context and missed the point. The next two examples I gave were about things Lefties might boycott the game over, using their usual arguments.

I understood the point that you were making.

I also understand that nothing I say will be able to make you understand why your point is wrong.

Because you do not see why the Lefties not only do not boycott, but in fact heap great praise upon a game that has thematic elements in it that they have taken other games to task for in the past.

Which raises the question... why aren't the religious gamers extolling the fact that you can play a devout paladin who smites heretics with holy retribution? Why are YOU letting the Left direct the narrative?

So, no... I don't think you understood my point at all.

Quote

Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 05:12:28 PM
So it's not that the scene is in the game that is really the problem, but the fact they decided to push it to forefront is why it's become a wedge issue.

Your dismissal of a non-negative depiction of bestiality just because it is "easily ignored" is proof that they have been successful in moving the disgust window in their direction.

And 200 years ago, people would be burned at the stake for the mere suggestion they were a witch, yet here you are, playing a game with witches and magic and demons. Is it because you know it's only fictional, and that roleplaying such things is not tacit approval of them in the real world? The window of what's acceptable has moved to a position in which YOU feel comfortable. Or were those people in the past just too extreme, and only you have the one, true, correct opinion?

Depictions of acts that I would find lewd or disgusting in real life do not bother me much when presented in a work of fiction. I'm able to separate the two. As soon as Lefties start pushing for bestiality laws, I'll be right there, shoulder to shoulder with you, waving my pitchfork.

Is that clear enough to show you my position on this?

Quote from: Reckall on August 06, 2023, 06:54:49 PM
Discerning reality from fiction is a common function of the brain - if one isn't schizophrenic.

It is. In fact, it's so common that any remotely good faith argument would assume that faculty in others.

Quote
It is also a bit much to ask for people to listen to opinions coming from those who haven't played the game.

You know, I might agree with you if it was a case of people arguing from inaccurate information, or from no information at all. But the bear scene this all sprang from was publicly posted in this thread. Presumably we've all seen it. The other major points: the non-binary character options, the dong slider, Larian bitching about players making white guy characters, those are all well-documented facts. The other point you argued on about whether or not the characters were being dickish to the PC, you were arguing with someone who had played the game.

On that last point, I heard recently that Larian had gone back and re-written/re-recorded a lot of the NPC dialogue due to negative feedback, which is another possible explanation for the discrepancy.

Quote from: Reckall on August 06, 2023, 01:40:24 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 06, 2023, 02:14:30 PM
A druid bear-fucking a vampire elf is small potatoes by comparison, I suppose.

Quote
Is it? Ironically the whole "decadence leads to the fall of civilization" narrative is a traditionalist one. Anyway I thought sex with animals was second only to child abuse in triggering most people's disgust reactions.

In real life, yes. However, many pagan/shamanistic religion have rites where the spiritual leaders "dress" as totemic animals and "become them" via acting, dance and maybe the stray drug - with at the end the "Bear" maybe "fertilizing the land" (if you get my meaning...), having sex with the "chosen Virgin" or whatever. Same, maybe, with the hunters, to bring good fortune.

So, in a fantasy world, what in the real world could be called "religious cosplaying" can become literal - especially in a druidic society. People from the outside could still find these acts aberrant - usually while crucifying the first dude who says "Hey, it would be neat to just love each other!"

I don't think anyone had previously raised the question of whether the scenario was plausible, which...yeah, I can see that, though that's clearly not what was being portrayed in that scene. A bear specifically strikes me as implausible given the physical realities involved, but I could see a primitive tribe coming up with some kind of werewolf sex fertility rite. You could also conceive of a world where necromancers raise up zombie women to be their concubines. I think I've even read that short story.

But I have to ask what the point of the hypothetical is. I certainly was not raising an objection with the fact that someone was able to imagine this scenario, and I don't think anyone else was either. Trust me, I can imagine far more depraved scenarios than that, or pull them from any of several books on my shelves. The question, to me at least, is about how the scenario is portrayed, how the audience is intended to react, and the actual reaction achieved.

Quote from: Reckall on August 06, 2023, 06:28:12 PM
We had "The Book of Vile Darkness for D&D 3E in 2002. The "degenerate" contents in BG3 are in the kiddies section of that book. Even "The Book of Exalted Deeds" had some pretty unexpected stunts in it (both were labeled "For mature audiences"). If anything, BG3 is peeking up from the very tame playfield of today - not the other way around.

That comment made me curious enough to go find the hard-drive with all my 3.x pdfs on it and have a look through the "Book of Vile Darkness". The book is actually a good deal more tame than I remembered it, especially for the edgy post-grunge 00s. It's mostly just cheesy gore on the level of an "Evil Dead" movie, and standard dark wizard stuff. The only explicit sexual reference I could find was to a magic item called "The Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain."

You'd have been on stronger ground if you'd referenced the "Book of Erotic Fantasy", which does get very explicit. Even there, some parts of the book are actually rather quaint compared to standard internet discourse today. On point, it includes this table:



It also lists Homosexuality on its table of "Common Cultural Taboos", which would be nigh inconceivable in a D&D supplement today.

Interestingly, the same table includes "Sex while shape-changed, polymorphed, reverse gendered or otherwise altered in form", so you are at least right that someone had conceived of a similar scenario back in the 3.0 days.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 06, 2023, 07:41:27 PM
BG3 has a positive depiction of Beasitality.

How does positively portraying Beastiality in a fictional make-believe video game make it not disgusting?

Why would anyone dismiss the inclusion of a positive depiction of Beastiality in a video as game 'not a big deal' instead of calling it out as the disgusting, gross, and unacceptable content that it is?

Technically, no, it doesn't.

Bestiality is sex between a human being and an animal.

Animal in this case meaning a being incapable of sapient thought giving consent.

This involved two rational beings fully capable of granting consent.

That said, one of them was a vampire so it's technically necrophila.

Quote from: Reckall on August 06, 2023, 08:22:54 PM
Positively? Are you even aware that you can still be disgusted by the act and refuse to do it? (I don't even know if you can expel that character from your party, or worse).

I think the complainers here are basically Virtue Signaling like pallet swapped SJWs.

The lack of basic self-awareness would be hilarious if it wasn't so fucking pathetic.

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 06, 2023, 08:51:38 PM
You know, I might agree with you if it was a case of people arguing from inaccurate information, or from no information at all. But the bear scene this all sprang from was publicly posted in this thread.

They're also acting like it's something unskipable. Don't like it, don't engage in it, don't act like a drama queen. Simple as that.

QuotePresumably we've all seen it. The other major points: the non-binary character options,

Who cares? They're not making you choose it.

Quotethe dong slider,

*points to 2077* Did it first, did it better, didn't hear anyone crying over it, and frankly, M rated game so I give zero fucks.

QuoteLarian bitching about players making white guy characters,

If you actually read the quote they're not bitching about "OMG not inclusive" but more complaining their weird body parts aren't getting any traction.

They're not saying white men are evil... they're saying their player base are a bunch of boring ass normies. Difference is subtle but profound.

https://i.redd.it/smjbasi998s51.png

Quotethose are all well-documented facts.

Well documented, poorly presented.

QuoteThat comment made me curious enough to go find the hard-drive with all my 3.x pdfs on it and have a look through the "Book of Vile Darkness". The book is actually a good deal more tame than I remembered it, especially for the edgy post-grunge 00s. It's mostly just cheesy gore on the level of an "Evil Dead" movie, and standard dark wizard stuff. The only explicit sexual reference I could find was to a magic item called "The Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain."

He was probably focusing on official stuff. And yeah, book of vile darkness was pretty weaksauce.

QuoteYou'd have been on stronger ground if you'd referenced the "Book of Erotic Fantasy", which does get very explicit. Even there, some parts of the book are actually rather quaint compared to standard internet discourse today. On point, it includes this table:



It also lists Homosexuality on its table of "Common Cultural Taboos", which would be nigh inconceivable in a D&D supplement today.

Not official, sadly. In fact they put up a hell of a stink about it back in the day.

QuoteIt also lists Homosexuality on its table of "Common Cultural Taboos", which would be nigh inconceivable in a D&D supplement today.

I blame media studies infiltrating everything for that.

Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 08:36:27 PM

As soon as Lefties start pushing for bestiality laws, I'll be right there, shoulder to shoulder with you, waving my pitchfork.

No, you won't.  By that point, you'll be pointing at all of the depictions of bestiality in media and games and saying, "What's the big deal?  Nobody thinks this is a big deal now.  The time to have objected to this was when it first started.  At this point it's useless to complain..."

Quote from: Psyckosama on August 06, 2023, 09:09:33 PM
I think the complainers here are basically Virtue Signaling like pallet swapped SJWs.

The lack of basic self-awareness would be hilarious if it wasn't so fucking pathetic.

No, that's not fair.
People have convictions and feel strongly about them. That should be lauded, not criticized. Fewer and fewer people in society actually have any principles these days.

The debate here is not over "virtue signalling" personally held convictions, it's over whether or not depictions in a work a of fiction should meet the same standards as reality. I don't think they should, but that doesn't also mean I think the standards of acceptability in real life should be lessened. In fact, there are plenty of areas where I think it should be strengthened, such as protecting children. And yes, this means making it more difficult for them to get their hands on adult material.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2023, 09:15:04 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 08:36:27 PM

As soon as Lefties start pushing for bestiality laws, I'll be right there, shoulder to shoulder with you, waving my pitchfork.

No, you won't.  By that point, you'll be pointing at all of the depictions of bestiality in media and games and saying, "What's the big deal?  Nobody thinks this is a big deal now.  The time to have objected to this was when it first started.  At this point it's useless to complain..."

The normalization is far more advanced than some are willing to admit, google "woman marries her dog" (not at work).

There was also a lot of women? posting on the twatter about fucking their dogs. Not sure if those were real or just trolls tho.

Like you say, until it's too late they will be happy to call the likes of me all kinds of names and then will pretend to be shocked when they start pushing pedo friendly laws and bestiality friendly laws, or will shrug and carry on.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2023, 09:15:04 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 08:36:27 PM

As soon as Lefties start pushing for bestiality laws, I'll be right there, shoulder to shoulder with you, waving my pitchfork.

No, you won't.  By that point, you'll be pointing at all of the depictions of bestiality in media and games and saying, "What's the big deal?  Nobody thinks this is a big deal now.  The time to have objected to this was when it first started.  At this point it's useless to complain..."

You know what? You've convinced me!
I'm gonna burn all my awful books, with their depictions of Satanic demon worship and mind control spells, and start a grassroots campaign to get all rpgs banned. I'll call it the Eirikrautha Foundation, in honor of you.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 06, 2023, 07:41:27 PMWhy would anyone dismiss the inclusion of a positive depiction of Beastiality in a video as game 'not a big deal' instead of calling it out as the disgusting, gross, and unacceptable content that it is?

But only in a non-censorious way, please! Cuz we don't wanna hurt Geeky's feelings. No one's asking for censorship here. People are only asking for it to be called out as unacceptable content that should not be included, but only in a totally non-censorious fashion.

Quote from: ForgottenF on August 06, 2023, 08:51:38 PMInterestingly, the same table includes "Sex while shape-changed, polymorphed, reverse gendered or otherwise altered in form", so you are at least right that someone had conceived of a similar scenario back in the 3.0 days.

There are real life myths of gods, like Zeus or Loki, having sex while shape shifted. So people have been conceiving of a similar scenarios for thousands of years.

Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 09:28:25 PM
No, that's not fair.
People have convictions and feel strongly about them. That should be lauded, not criticized. Fewer and fewer people in society actually have any principles these days.

I disagree.

Most SJWs, the true believers... have very strong convictions.

Just because a conviction is strong doesn't mean it's not objectionable.

Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 09:35:06 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 06, 2023, 09:15:04 PM

Quote from: Effete on August 06, 2023, 08:36:27 PM

As soon as Lefties start pushing for bestiality laws, I'll be right there, shoulder to shoulder with you, waving my pitchfork.

No, you won't.  By that point, you'll be pointing at all of the depictions of bestiality in media and games and saying, "What's the big deal?  Nobody thinks this is a big deal now.  The time to have objected to this was when it first started.  At this point it's useless to complain..."

You know what? You've convinced me!
I'm gonna burn all my awful books, with their depictions of Satanic demon worship and mind control spells, and start a grassroots campaign to get all rpgs banned. I'll call it the Eirikrautha Foundation, in honor of you.

You mock now. But just you wait till the sea of people marrying their dogs and their horses comes in because you failed to strongly condemn a toss away sex scene between a vampire and a druid shapeshited into a bear that you can't even access unless you go through a bunch of text options in (what I'm assuming is a side quest in) a video game. When your neighbor, your brother and your boss come ask you to greet their new donkey spouse, don't say we didn't warn you! THIS IS ON YOU!