This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?  (Read 2475 times)

Rhymer88

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • R
  • Posts: 91
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2022, 01:56:41 AM »
Amazon should make the elves all purple like those in the Hobbit animated film. Boy, they sure were ugly.

tenbones

  • Poobah of the D.O.N.G.
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5536
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2022, 08:57:18 AM »
Best comment ever: "Shelob will now be called Theylob."

Runnerup: The second expansion set for the series will be called "The Return of the Kangz".

Rhymer88

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • R
  • Posts: 91
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2022, 09:46:03 AM »
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 2717
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2022, 10:51:51 AM »
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".
In context it wasn't meant to be racist or homophobic.

In Tolkien's world literal and spiritual light and dark are commonly associated with good and evil, respectively. This probably stems from the fact that humans can't see in the dark, and isn't meant to be a statement about racism. You see a similar symbolism in Dragon Prince, where the Haitian-coded elves of color worship the Sun and associate light and fire with purification; although it isn't explored, I would guess that they associate their own skin color with being burned (like charcoal) and thus purified. There's also Sun-Man, a black superhero.

Saruman's makeover is supposed to indicate he believes himself the greatest wizard ever, even above his makers, because wizards use color coding to indicate their rank in the order. It's not meant to symbolize that pride colors are evil.

They're trying their damndest to make the orcs look White too. It just shows their weird fucking skincolor based morality. Fuck em.
The irony is that they accuse their opponents of making orcs resemble black people. The projection is strong. (The same people criticize characters like Gamora as racist because she's not real black representation, but a space alien.)

There's no observed correlation between using orcs and holding racist attitudes. Racism isn't that subtle.

Reckall

  • Junghian alchemist
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1805
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2022, 11:35:40 AM »
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".

If you think you are joking, this is an official seminary by the Tolkien Society, Summer 2021:

Christopher Vaccaro – Pardoning Saruman?: The Queer in Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings

The Silmarillion is J. R. R. Tolkien’s work in which his Christian upbringing and influence can be seen through the story and the characters. From the song that brings Arda to life to Morgoth’s fall, the book is part of an original pre-history to Middle-Earth and an allegory to Christian’s mythology. In The Lord of the Rings preface, Tolkien comments about the difference between applicability and allegory, and how the reader is free to read it according to his point of view. Therefore this paper aims to read The Silmarillion character Manwë as an archetype of the rightful and lawful leader. For this manner, we will compare him to Xangô, the Orixá from the African-Brazilian religion Umbanda according to the concepts of the archetypal literary criticism. The reason why we trace a comparison between a literary character and an Orixá is to show that archetypes are not reserved to myths, dreams, arts and old religions. Instead, it still lives in our daily lives, especially in religion, even though we can not see it sometimes. Manwë is described as the noblest between the Valar and the one who understands Iluvatar’s purpose. Because of that, he is chosen as the King. He commands the winds and the air and represents justice. In Umbanda, the Orixás represent an aspect of nature and human psychology. Therefore, Xangô represents lightning and thunder, and justice. He is King among the Orixás because he was able to unify all nations. We also can see this archetype in other mythological characters, such as Zeus and Odin. The cultural differences in the archetype representation and the fact that it still is worshipped show us that perhaps the need for a rightful leader is part of the human psyche whether in art or religion.


[If you are wondering where is Saruman in all of this, the answer is: nowhere.]

For every idiot who denounces Ayn Rand as "intellectualism" there is an excellent DM who creates a "Bioshock" adventure.

Rhymer88

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • R
  • Posts: 91
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2022, 11:45:37 AM »
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".
In context it wasn't meant to be racist or homophobic.

Yes, I know, but given SJWs' obsessions, these elements from LotR become unintentionally humorous.

Rob Necronomicon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1109
  • Blee
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2022, 02:56:14 PM »
I just find it so weird - Feeling the need to change the cannon as it's already set in stone.

I mean, mid-earth is a big place and there are plenty of opportunities to make YOUR adventures more diverse (if you want). But changing main characters just to tick boxes is utterly bizarre.

But fuck it, why not go the whole hog and just make all the main characters POC? Because they are chicken shits and know the game would fall to bits because only a tiny % would actually buy it if they did. Instead, it just drip-feeds us evil 'crackers' trying to educate us on what's right and wrong (as they perceive it).

But I'm not really that bothered, tbh. As I wouldn't touch 5e with asbestos gloves.

If I wanted a good LoTR game I'd either go for, MERP, Against the Dark Master, Or mess around with one of the OSR games.

Ironically I never thought Aragorn was just a 'white dude'. But WoTC knows far better than the man Tolkien of course.


"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" Marcello Truzzi.

Ruprecht

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • Ruprecht's RPG blog
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2022, 05:18:05 PM »
how long before Orcs are presented as white-skinned?
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

Persimmon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • P
  • Posts: 261
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2022, 07:14:05 PM »
I find it very funny that Sauron invented "Black Speech" and that Saruman became "Saruman of Many Colours".

You know some woke idiot pseudo-scholar is (or already has) going to write an "academic" essay claiming Saruman was queer.  In fact, I think there was a presentation to that effect at the Tolkien Society last year, probably by somebody from that faux university that Cory Olson founded.

Update: See the post above!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 07:19:18 PM by Persimmon »

Ruprecht

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • Ruprecht's RPG blog
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2022, 07:16:13 PM »
You know some woke idiot pseudo-scholar is (or already has) going to write an "academic" essay claiming Saruman was queer.  In fact, I think there was a presentation to that effect at the Tolkien Society last year, probably by somebody from that faux university that Cory Olson founded.
I don't think there were even female orcs at Isengard, and he wanted Gandalf to stay pretty badly.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 2717
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2022, 08:01:56 PM »
You know some woke idiot pseudo-scholar is (or already has) going to write an "academic" essay claiming Saruman was queer.  In fact, I think there was a presentation to that effect at the Tolkien Society last year, probably by somebody from that faux university that Cory Olson founded.
I don't think there were even female orcs at Isengard, and he wanted Gandalf to stay pretty badly.
Tolkien never explored the topic of female orcs beyond saying in a letter that they presumably existed. In the actual books all we ever hear is that Gollum ate a baby goblin offscreen. Perhaps this mystery is intentional on Tolkien's part because he knew that readers would come up with way freakier ideas than if he outright provided explanations himself. Case in point: I recall reading a LotR/GoT crossover fanfic where Saruman and Qyburn physically assemble orcs from assorted body parts a la Frankenstein, which are stated to clone themselves like carrots if planted in fertile soil.

Persimmon

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • P
  • Posts: 261
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2022, 08:47:35 PM »
But since Saruman was breeding half-orcs at Isengard, isn't that sufficient evidence that they simply reproduce like other races.  Or might they have been male orcs breeding with female humans?  And given that in several places Tolkien references breeding orcs I think it's safe to say he meant with females without going into the moronic logic employed by the idiots working on the execrable Amazon series.

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 2717
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2022, 09:19:34 PM »
But since Saruman was breeding half-orcs at Isengard, isn't that sufficient evidence that they simply reproduce like other races.  Or might they have been male orcs breeding with female humans?  And given that in several places Tolkien references breeding orcs I think it's safe to say he meant with females without going into the moronic logic employed by the idiots working on the execrable Amazon series.
We don't actually know how the creatures were created. Treebeard speculates that they're hybrids, but it's never confirmed.

And before you suggest "Saruman was letting his orc allies rape Dunlending women that he somehow acquired without raising any eyebrows," recall that Morgoth (and to a lesser extent Sauron and Saruman) was by our standards a master geneticist with similar capabilities to b-movie scifi mad scientists but with a fantasy aesthetic. He created demons, dragons, vampires, werewolves, etc. Tolkien wasn't a scifi writer or a geneticist, so obviously he wouldn't have the know-how to articulate that, but I imagine that if he did have the know-how then he would articulate that way. For propriety if nothing else. "Created in vats by mixing the essences of different creatures" sounds way less shlocky and exploitative than "abducting women and putting them on rape farms."

Tolkien is not the sort of writer who writes female characters being tortured or demeaned specifically for being female like a lot of writers do. The closest he comes to that is having a handful of minor female characters whose stories are footnotes in the background be forced to marry against their will (all but stating that they were raped by their husbands), but Tolkien never dwells on violence or torture, especially not sexual torture. At one point he specifies that elves spontaneously die if they're sexually assaulted, and since they're immortal this means they can just reincarnate later where it's safe. And the closest he ever comes to the monstrous feminine is Ungoliant, who happens to be one of the single most dangerous beings in the legendarium. Morgoth feared being eaten by her! Ungoliant is female and implied to be the progenitor of the giant spiders (presumably parthenogenically), but her monstrosity comes from being made of darkness and hungering to eat everything rather than any act of giving birth.

Tolkien was a hopeless romantic like that. His experiences in WWI and his marriage informed how he wrote his works. It's a far cry from the torture-porn, rape-as-wallpaper, and misogynistic Handmaid's Tale of Gor-style sick pervert fantasies that characterizes modern fantasy. IMO, we need more men like him, men who aren't ravening sex fiends that hide their misogyny behind wokeness and "but muh realism!".

Sorry for the rant, I just really need to get that off my chest. Again.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 09:21:57 PM by BoxCrayonTales »

Ruprecht

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 167
    • Ruprecht's RPG blog
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2022, 09:22:25 PM »
Weren't Orcs created from tortured broken Elves?
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. ~Robert E. Howard

BoxCrayonTales

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • B
  • Posts: 2717
Re: Aragorn race-swapped?? What. The. Literal. Fuck?
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2022, 09:33:27 PM »
Weren't Orcs created from tortured broken Elves?
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Orcs/Origin

Long story short: Tolkien never settled on a definitive origin while he was alive.

Altho since elves canonically die if sexually assaulted, we can assume that Morgoth either didn't use sexual torture or developed a means to capture and reincarnate elf souls against their will after they died during the course of the experiments.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 09:35:31 PM by BoxCrayonTales »