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Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Other Games => Topic started by: silva on November 19, 2012, 04:04:02 PM

Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 19, 2012, 04:04:02 PM
Played it all the weekend (in Shadowrun setting) and man, this game rocks! I love how the rules generate tension automatically and keep pushing the players to hard choices all the time. Also, its simplicity makes the game flow really well, taking a fraction of the time most others out there do for resolving action scenes and such. its my benchmark for rules-light systems these days.

Im amused its not talked more around here.  Why is this ? People dont know it exists ? Or simply dont like or dont care for it ? And if so, why ?

Come on guys, lets talk about this awesome game!


P.S: by the way, my brother played a cool Battlebabe bodyguard in 2050s Seattle Barrens. The high point was the botched negotiation with local gang (The Stilettos) resulting in a hide-and-seek chase in the rubble while keeping his client head low and ass safe. The Battlebabe stats (high Cool, and Perfect Instincts) made it a breeze though. He had more trouble talking with people (because his low Hot stat) than acting under fire. :D
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Internet Death on November 19, 2012, 04:16:09 PM
The Apocalypse World Engine gets a lot of love on other forums.  I like it myself, but it seems like nobody really digs the Apocalypse World setting.  Predictably enough, people tend to prefer the boring and safe Dungeon World variant.

I've never tried to "hack" anything with AW, I like the original setting just fine.  I am looking forward to tremulus though.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Skywalker on November 19, 2012, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: silva;600971
Come on guys, lets talk about this awesome game!


I personally have little love for Apocalypse World, though Monster of the Week and Dungeon World are pretty cool.

I am looking forward to the day that Dungeon World gets some discussion here :)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Thalaba on November 19, 2012, 04:19:31 PM
I'm interested in AW, in large part because of the setting, but haven't picked up a copy yet, so can't say much about it.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 19, 2012, 04:28:41 PM
Apocalypse World is great. My group played one our most fun campaigns using it, about a year ago. We became very invested in our characters and the setting, and were more or less constantly plotting against one another: it felt, in a strange way, almost like Amber Diceless. I have a lot of time for it.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Phantom Black on November 19, 2012, 04:52:55 PM
I hate Apocalypse World for all the little things i've already been told by people who played it. The freakishly named terminology and the cultural appropriation in the game is enough to put me off.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 19, 2012, 04:53:39 PM
The comparison with Amber seems apt to me, since both games promote intra-party tension - Amber with its (awesome) character creation and AW with its (awesome) "moves"-based rules.

Also, AW reminds me of the Fallout PC games. Not because of the similar settings though, but because both have this sandboxy, "choice-consequence" philosophy at their cores.

Quote
I personally have little love for Apocalypse World, though Monster of the Week and Dungeon World are pretty cool.

I am looking forward to the day that Dungeon World gets some discussion here


Yeah, me too. I pledged on Dungeon World kickstarter but havent received it yet. I imagine it shares the same moves and playbook structure as AW, right ? If so, I think I would like it too since it keeps the "choice-consequence" thing I cited above.

But the hack that excites most right now is Jon Harper´s The Regiment. Take a look:

http://www.onesevendesign.com/regiment/the_regiment_alpha_2_1.pdf (http://www.onesevendesign.com/regiment/the_regiment_alpha_2_1.pdf)

(taken from here: http://mightyatom.blogspot.com.br/ (http://mightyatom.blogspot.com.br/) )
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Skywalker on November 19, 2012, 04:54:00 PM
BTW you may have got more love for Apocalypse World had it been placed in the RPG forum and not other games (or did mods arbitrarily move this one :confused:).
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Skywalker on November 19, 2012, 04:56:58 PM
Quote from: silva;600990
Yeah, me too. I pledged on Dungeon World kickstarter but havent received it yet. I imagine it shares the same moves and playbook structure as AW, right ? If so, I think I would like it too since it keeps the "choice-consequence" thing I cited above.


Yep. Playbooks are classes with their own moves.

DW is less ambitious than AW, but its a more accessible concept and with a more accessible approach to the mechanics.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Thalaba on November 19, 2012, 05:01:23 PM
Quote from: Skywalker;600977
I personally have little love for Apocalypse World...


What don't you like about it?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Phantom Black on November 19, 2012, 05:02:36 PM
Actually, this thread makes me read reviews about this game, and my loathing of the system grows the more i read about it. It is the contradiction of many things i like in RPGs. For example the "no given type can be in a group more than once". That's just contrived Forger bullshit.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 19, 2012, 05:04:32 PM
Well, the thread just got moved and it wasnt me.

Oh, now a I see why the game is not loved around here:

It must bother some mods around here. you know.. the ones that try their hands at game design and all that... since Apocalypse World design is louded beyond these little walls here (something the mods games are not, being completely insular to this little island)... delegating it to "other games" is the only way they have to express their frustrations.

Well, lets continue the conversation here then. ;)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Skywalker on November 19, 2012, 05:10:11 PM
Don't worry, the mods don't really have any idea what an RPG is and instead rely on the benchmarks of "It is different!" or "I don't like it!" For example, solo gamebooks are traditional RPGs but RPGs like Marvel Heroic are not. :confused:

I guess the mods answered your question better than anyone else could :D
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 19, 2012, 05:10:40 PM
Quote from: Phantom Black;600997
Actually, this thread makes me read reviews about this game, and my loathing of the system grows the more i read about it. It is the contradiction of many things i like in RPGs. For example the "no given type can be in a group more than once".

It doesnt sound more absurd to me than D&D´s "mages cant wear armor" or "fire-and-forget" spells.

Quote
Don't worry, the mods don't really have any idea what is or isn't an RPG and instead rely on the benchmarks of "its different!" or "I don't like it!". For example, solo gamebooks are traditional RPGs but RPGs like Marvel Heroic are not.

Hmmm... dont think so. In the case of Apocalypse World, I think the hate is moved by envy, not ignorance.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 19, 2012, 05:20:25 PM
Quote from: Phantom Black;600997
Actually, this thread makes me read reviews about this game, and my loathing of the system grows the more i read about it. It is the contradiction of many things i like in RPGs. For example the "no given type can be in a group more than once". That's just contrived Forger bullshit.


I think you should be proud of your open-mindedness and willingness to try new things.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 19, 2012, 05:29:46 PM
Quote from: silva;601002
Hmmm... dont think so. In the case of Apocalypse World, I think the hate is moved by envy, not ignorance.


The idea that Apocalypse World is a "story game" is so idiotic to anybody who's actually played it that it's clear whoever is responsible for the thread move has simply decided "Vincent Baker, Forge, toys, pram, thrown" in something like that order. I think envy plays a part, but it's mostly down to being blinkered, uneducated, moronic, and unthinking.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Skywalker on November 19, 2012, 05:43:20 PM
Quote from: Thalaba;600996
What don't you like about it?


I am not a big fan of postapoclyptic games, and the way it was presented in AW didn't appeal. I also found the system a little too abstract, though very good.

Dungeon World and Monster of the Week are genres that I like more and they are a little less (though not much more) abstract.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 19, 2012, 07:11:15 PM
Sky, how is that so ? How is DW less abstract than AW ? (not nitpicking or anything like that man, just curious really ;) )

Quote
Quote
Actually, this thread makes me read reviews about this game, and my loathing of the system grows the more i read about it. It is the contradiction of many things i like in RPGs. For example the "no given type can be in a group more than once".

It doesnt sound more absurd to me than D&D´s "mages cant wear armor" or "fire-and-forget" spells.


Just to correct myself here: I didnt intend to call those D&D features really absurd. They are like that because they serve a intended design, and they fit perfectly in it. But judged isolated they could sound as absurd as any other feature. Thats my point, ok ?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Skywalker on November 19, 2012, 08:32:04 PM
Quote from: silva;601045
Sky, how is that so ? How is DW less abstract than AW ? (not nitpicking or anything like that man, just curious really ;) )


Admittedly my experiences of Apocalypse World are limited and my main reason for not playing more is a lack of interest in the post-apocalyptic genre, but I found the attributes, moves and playbooks in AW to be less concrete than the DW equivalents. For example, I didn't like having a "Hot +1" attribute :)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Tommy Brownell on November 19, 2012, 10:09:05 PM
Quote from: Internet Death;600975
The Apocalypse World Engine gets a lot of love on other forums.  I like it myself, but it seems like nobody really digs the Apocalypse World setting.  Predictably enough, people tend to prefer the boring and safe Dungeon World variant.

I've never tried to "hack" anything with AW, I like the original setting just fine.  I am looking forward to tremulus though.


tremulus is very fun. Ran a one on one game for a buddy for Halloween and he wants to try it again, taking the initiative to start selling one of our other players on it.

I also dig what I've read of Dungeon World and Monster of the Week, but I have no interest in Apocalypse World.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Justin Alexander on November 19, 2012, 10:22:24 PM
Quote from: Skywalker;600991
BTW you may have got more love for Apocalypse World had it been placed in the RPG forum and not other games (or did mods arbitrarily move this one :confused:).


I'm guessing they moved it. There was a troll on here a few months back who claimed it was an STG (it isn't) and the mods, who have no direct experience with the game, were convinced by his ramblings.

Based on the mini-campaign I played in awhile back, I'm a huge fan of Apocalypse World. My next major, dedicated campaign as a GM will likely be an Apocalypse World game.

What I was particularly struck by with the game is the explicit game structures it contains. In this it is very similar to the OD&D rulebooks, although the actual structures being defined by Baker are completely different from the dungeon-crawling and proto-hexcrawl structures that Arneson and Gygax were laying out.

Quote from: Phantom Black;600997
Actually, this thread makes me read reviews about this game, and my loathing of the system grows the more i read about it. It is the contradiction of many things i like in RPGs. For example the "no given type can be in a group more than once". That's just contrived Forger bullshit.


AD&D 1e PHB, pg. 25: "No more than three rangers may ever operate together at any time."

It's old than you think. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanTheyThink)

Although, yes, this is something I'd prefer to treat as a strongly suggested guideline than a hard-and-fast rule.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: RPGPundit on November 19, 2012, 10:54:10 PM
Given that Silva posted a previous thread about this subject, long ago, which was also moved to Other games because we've established that this is a storygame, it shouldn't be a surprise to him or anyone else that we've moved this thread too.

RPGPundit
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 20, 2012, 01:17:46 PM
Fuck you.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Internet Death on November 20, 2012, 03:56:50 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;601089
Given that Silva posted a previous thread about this subject, long ago, which was also moved to Other games because we've established that this is a storygame, it shouldn't be a surprise to him or anyone else that we've moved this thread too.

RPGPundit


Huh?  Storygames and Role-playing games are not mutually exclusive.  That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Skywalker on November 20, 2012, 04:04:39 PM
Quote from: Internet Death;601247
That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


Welcome to TheRPGSite.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 20, 2012, 05:11:45 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;601089
Given that Silva posted a previous thread about this subject, long ago, which was also moved to Other games because we've established that this is a storygame, it shouldn't be a surprise to him or anyone else that we've moved this thread too.

RPGPundit


Have you actually read it?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 21, 2012, 02:22:57 AM
Just forget about the whole "thisisn'tanXXXgame" discussion, it's really not worth it. Let's just talk (up) the merits of Apocalypse World.

I was rather sceptic to begin with, even after reading through it the first time, but over the last year or so, I've been won over. Why?

Because it's good and freakin' dynamic.

In every fight we've had in my LotFP-campaign, there's been soooo many boring rolls ending in misses (combination of high AC/low attack bonuses). These misses, even for all my descriptions and battlefield bravado, does nothing for our game. They are misses and result in nothing.

In Apocalypse World, every bad roll creates new situations and more drama. When ever your character fails something, it has to make som hard choices. And these choices aren't just related to stats or numbers on the character sheet - it's stuff that affects the group and the world surrounding the characters. So just like a succes pushes the action forward, so does a failed roll. That's brilliant, especially combined with the list, both combat-stuff and in the playbooks, which makes these choices easy to use, but hard to make.

And by having the players making the decisions, you include them in the drama, more than if it is you as a gm making making up the outcome of fights and conflicts. This, in my oppinion, creates a perfect system for sandbox games, where no one knows where the session will end up.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Ladybird on November 21, 2012, 08:32:09 AM
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;601365
Just forget about the whole "thisisn'tanXXXgame" discussion, it's really not worth it. Let's just talk (up) the merits of Apocalypse World.

I was rather sceptic to begin with, even after reading through it the first time, but over the last year or so, I've been won over. Why?

Because it's good and freakin' dynamic.

In every fight we've had in my LotFP-campaign, there's been soooo many boring rolls ending in misses (combination of high AC/low attack bonuses). These misses, even for all my descriptions and battlefield bravado, does nothing for our game. They are misses and result in nothing.

In Apocalypse World, every bad roll creates new situations and more drama. When ever your character fails something, it has to make som hard choices. And these choices aren't just related to stats or numbers on the character sheet - it's stuff that affects the group and the world surrounding the characters. So just like a succes pushes the action forward, so does a failed roll. That's brilliant, especially combined with the list, both combat-stuff and in the playbooks, which makes these choices easy to use, but hard to make.

And by having the players making the decisions, you include them in the drama, more than if it is you as a gm making making up the outcome of fights and conflicts. This, in my oppinion, creates a perfect system for sandbox games, where no one knows where the session will end up.


Yeah, but that's only making decisions for a character you are guiding through the exploration of an imaginary world. It's not really roleplaying, now is it.

:rolleyes:
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: CRKrueger on November 21, 2012, 10:51:56 AM
Quote from: Ladybird;601392
Yeah, but that's only making decisions for a character you are guiding through the exploration of an imaginary world. It's not really roleplaying, now is it.

:rolleyes:


Depends whether or not you're making those decisions as the character. ;)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Bland Joe Dwarf on November 21, 2012, 12:45:15 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit;601089
Given that Silva posted a previous thread about this subject, long ago, which was also moved to Other games because we've established that this is a storygame, it shouldn't be a surprise to him or anyone else that we've moved this thread too.

RPGPundit


Even by the site's shallow definition, AW is a RPG, as the decision-making is tied to in-setting consequences
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Bland Joe Dwarf on November 21, 2012, 01:06:15 PM
Hi Silva, I'm beginning to play it PbP at tBP and wouldn't mind running it, or some of its hacks (MH, MotW), even though I find the DW idea kind of dull, as D&D fantasy has already a fair share of games. I'm waiting anxiously to see what they make for tremulus.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 21, 2012, 03:59:14 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;601412
Depends whether or not you're making those decisions as the character. ;)
Dont know if youre being sarcastic here, but Apocalypse World´s decisions are all made in-character.

Quote
Hi Silva, I'm beginning to play it PbP at tBP and wouldn't mind running it, or some of its hacks (MH, MotW), even though I find the DW idea kind of dull, as D&D fantasy has already a fair share of games. I'm waiting anxiously to see what they make for tremulus.
Hi Bland Joe! That would be awesome, really. Ive been gaming a bit of AW lately and finding myself liking it more and more.

My group´s initial difiiculty was rejecting some more "trad" conventions, like asking to do Perception tests all the time, or trying to roll skills all the time even when no potential conflict is present. But the more we´re "getting" its underlying premises, the more cool the game is getting.

I would gladly try out a PbP game. Im sending you a PM.;)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 21, 2012, 04:06:34 PM
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;601365
Just forget about the whole "thisisn'tanXXXgame" discussion, it's really not worth it. Let's just talk (up) the merits of Apocalypse World.

I was rather sceptic to begin with, even after reading through it the first time, but over the last year or so, I've been won over. Why?

Because it's good and freakin' dynamic.

In every fight we've had in my LotFP-campaign, there's been soooo many boring rolls ending in misses (combination of high AC/low attack bonuses). These misses, even for all my descriptions and battlefield bravado, does nothing for our game. They are misses and result in nothing.

In Apocalypse World, every bad roll creates new situations and more drama. When ever your character fails something, it has to make som hard choices. And these choices aren't just related to stats or numbers on the character sheet - it's stuff that affects the group and the world surrounding the characters. So just like a succes pushes the action forward, so does a failed roll. That's brilliant, especially combined with the list, both combat-stuff and in the playbooks, which makes these choices easy to use, but hard to make.

And by having the players making the decisions, you include them in the drama, more than if it is you as a gm making making up the outcome of fights and conflicts. This, in my oppinion, creates a perfect system for sandbox games, where no one knows where the session will end up.


I agree. I've never run a game of AW, only played in it, and I can honestly say as a player I've never felt as emotionally involved in what is going on. It's partly because all of your actions have real consequences, but also because, as you say, the actions of the players feed into the way the world develops.

I think it's probably the best-designed game I've played.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Silverlion on November 21, 2012, 06:14:32 PM
Never played. More interested in its relatives, and giving them a try.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Skywalker on November 21, 2012, 06:31:07 PM
Quote from: Bland Joe Dwarf;601444
Even by the site's shallow definition, AW is a RPG, as the decision-making is tied to in-setting consequences

I thought this site's definition of story-games was RPGs that Pundit doesn't like or that are liked by people Pundit doesn't agree with.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 22, 2012, 03:24:29 AM
Quote from: Ladybird;601392
Yeah, but that's only making decisions for a character you are guiding through the exploration of an imaginary world. It's not really roleplaying, now is it.

:rolleyes:


Yeah, dunno how I could possibly make that mistake. Maybe it is because it doesn't actually say anywhere in the Apocalypse World rules (if I remember correctly) that it is a roleplaying-game - so maybe Vincent agrees with Pundit!

Oh well and huzza for pbp games coming from this thread.

One of the things I never really got the hang on from reading Apocalypse World, is the use of the Maelstrom, and the playbooks connected to it. Anyone has some good/cool examples of the maelstrom in play?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 22, 2012, 04:49:55 AM
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;601635
Yeah, dunno how I could possibly make that mistake. Maybe it is because it doesn't actually say anywhere in the Apocalypse World rules (if I remember correctly) that it is a roleplaying-game - so maybe Vincent agrees with Pundit!

Oh well and huzza for pbp games coming from this thread.

One of the things I never really got the hang on from reading Apocalypse World, is the use of the Maelstrom, and the playbooks connected to it. Anyone has some good/cool examples of the maelstrom in play?


We primarily used it as a source of obscure and dangerous information which would provide us with hints and insight into a given situation. I feel like we could have done more with it, especially as my character was a Hocus, but we only played for about 7 sessions, and, as Baker says in the intro, it "isn't really much of a game" until it's at least 6 sessions long. I'd like to play a proper long-term campaign of it.

What I love about the Maelstrom is the way the MC has to insist the players each develop their own signature hallucination about what happens when opening their mind. One of the guys at my table would describe this crazed, spooky vision of giant tongues descending from the sky and licking his brain.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Paper Monkey on November 23, 2012, 03:13:35 AM
While I haven't gotten to play Apocalypse World, I think I can safely say that Dungeon World is pretty spectacular after looking it over. All the classes have some really exciting moves.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 23, 2012, 04:40:08 AM
Quote from: noisms;601646
We primarily used it as a source of obscure and dangerous information which would provide us with hints and insight into a given situation...


That's sounds cool - I might use that.

Another question. To what degree have Apocalypse World (to what ever degree) turned into Player vs Player?

From my experience in can happen alot - not that there is anything wrong with it and the rules tackles it neatly. But a group that some of my friends played in, didn't do it at all - instead creating a very tightly nit group, working with and around a travelling hospital, sort of "ER" meets "Carnivale", with a strong us-against-the-world vibe.

So how has your groups and sessions turned out?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 23, 2012, 02:35:53 PM
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;601779
That's sounds cool - I might use that.

Another question. To what degree have Apocalypse World (to what ever degree) turned into Player vs Player?

From my experience in can happen alot - not that there is anything wrong with it and the rules tackles it neatly. But a group that some of my friends played in, didn't do it at all - instead creating a very tightly nit group, working with and around a travelling hospital, sort of "ER" meets "Carnivale", with a strong us-against-the-world vibe.

So how has your groups and sessions turned out?

PvP on the level of conspiring against one another was very common. That's why earlier on I said it felt almost like Amber Diceless in play. Nobody killed anybody else, but I think that was just due to slight reticence on our part not to go quite that far - there were situations in which it seemed the likely outcome but we stepped (perhaps unrealistically) back from the brink.

We were certainly constantly scheming against one another, and each of us was involved in the murder of close allies of each other more than once. Our game quickly developed into a kind of power struggle for the fate of the town where we lived - though we were forced to ally with one another against external threats. I loved that about the game, too: it seemed tailor-made for that sort of scenario to arise. We were enemies, but had to cooperate at the same time, which led to striking temporary bargains, truces, etc., while never stopping plotting the next move. Very Machiavellian, cloak-and-dagger stuff, to an extent I've not encountered in a game before.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 23, 2012, 09:01:14 PM
Quote from: noisms
I think it's probably the best-designed game I've played.
Yeah, I agree with this sentiment. Ive never seen a game that promotes a playstyle through the rules in such a smooth and clever way.

I think its the new benchmark for rpg designers out there.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: One Horse Town on November 24, 2012, 08:31:15 AM
Yeah, but how many people did you manage to bone?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 09:54:20 AM
Oh fuck, I forgot the sex moves. Yeah, I find them ridiculous and unnecessary.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 24, 2012, 10:11:43 AM
Quote from: silva;601995
Oh fuck, I forgot the sex moves. Yeah, I find them ridiculous and unnecessary.


People seem to fixate on those, even though you can excise them from the game with no difficulty at all.

I love how people will make all kinds of house rules and special pleading for games they like, but for a game they've decided they don't like, suddenly you have to look at it in terms of the RAW.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 10:19:11 AM
Where I can find a physical copy of Tremulus and Saga of the Icelanders ?

I missed their crowdfundings. :o
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Tommy Brownell on November 24, 2012, 11:05:39 AM
Quote from: silva;602002
Where I can find a physical copy of Tremulus and Saga of the Icelanders ?

I missed their crowdfundings. :o


tremulus is still moving to the final draft.

The Apocalypse World sex moves, combined with the same system being used with other genres I like better, is a big part of why I skipped it and went to tremulus, Monster of the Week and DungeonWorld.  People made such a huge deal out of the sex moves that, yeah, it kinda made me think that's what the game was about.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;602013
The Apocalypse World sex moves, combined with the same system being used with other genres I like better, is a big part of why I skipped it and went to tremulus, Monster of the Week and DungeonWorld.  People made such a huge deal out of the sex moves that, yeah, it kinda made me think that's what the game was about.

Wait

What?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Tommy Brownell on November 24, 2012, 11:27:40 AM
Quote from: The Traveller;602016
Wait

What?


Everything I read online made a huge deal out of the sex moves, making me think they were a HUGE part of the game. Above thread, folks say that's not the case.

The sex moves thing was kind of a turn off to me, but then tremulus, Monster of the Week and DungeonWorld came along and I went with those over Apocalypse World, since I prefer the respective genres to post-apocalypse anyway.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Tommy Brownell on November 24, 2012, 11:31:20 AM
Quote from: noisms;602000
People seem to fixate on those, even though you can excise them from the game with no difficulty at all.

I love how people will make all kinds of house rules and special pleading for games they like, but for a game they've decided they don't like, suddenly you have to look at it in terms of the RAW.


While that is a great point, there are some things in some games that are much harder to remove. Take Monsterhearts, for instance, and try to remove the sexual content and you have essentially gutted the game.

Having not read Apocalypse World myself, just discussions online, the way folks focused on sex moves made me think it would be like removing levels from D&D, bennies from Savage Worlds, and so on and so forth...then, as noted, other games with genres I liked better came along using the same system, and I was happy enough.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 11:50:28 AM
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;602017
Everything I read online made a huge deal out of the sex moves, making me think they were a HUGE part of the game. Above thread, folks say that's not the case.

I mean, what, sex moves? I haven't really investigated the production but as far as games go that's a major alarm bell right there, I don't mind playing in someone else's imagination but not their creepy fantasy. Although I'd probably be considered by most to be pretty liberated in real life, it just doesn't seem like tabletop RPGs are a healthy outlet for that kind of energy. Historically at least they've dealt with the topic poorly at best. It would mess up the rest of the game for me.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Tommy Brownell on November 24, 2012, 12:02:18 PM
Quote from: The Traveller;602025
I mean, what, sex moves? I haven't really investigated the production but as far as games go that's a major alarm bell right there, I don't mind playing in someone else's imagination but not their creepy fantasy. Although I'd probably be considered by most to be pretty liberated in real life, it just doesn't seem like tabletop RPGs are a healthy outlet for that kind of energy. Historically at least they've dealt with the topic poorly at best. It would mess up the rest of the game for me.

Aaaaah, thought I was just being unclear this morning...=)

The different Playbooks (character options) all have a Sex Move...essentially, you have sex with someone and gain a mechanical benefit from it. The Brainer ( a creepy psychic) can do a deep mental scan while having sex with them...there's also multiple instances of moves that relate to the manipulation or seduction of another character (PC or NPC) into having sex with you.

Honestly, from reading the Playbooks, I don't think it would be that easy to remove, (one of the five stats is designed specifically for seduction and manipulation) so I really don't think the game's for me...heavy mechanical emphasis on sex or romance in RPGs has never been a high priority for me or my players.

That said, I do like the system (as did one of my players) when we played tremulus.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 12:25:31 PM
Quote from: The Traveller
what, sex moves? I haven't really investigated the production but as far as games go that's a major alarm bell right there, I don't mind playing in someone else's imagination but not their creepy fantasy. Although I'd probably be considered by most to be pretty liberated in real life, it just doesn't seem like tabletop RPGs are a healthy outlet for that kind of energy. Historically at least they've dealt with the topic poorly at best. It would mess up the rest of the game for me

The Sex moves can be removed from the game without any prejudice. My group never used it, for example. The game already have enough stuff in place to promote intra-party tension and drama.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 24, 2012, 12:30:25 PM
Quote from: Tommy Brownell;602028
Honestly, from reading the Playbooks, I don't think it would be that easy to remove, (one of the five stats is designed specifically for seduction and manipulation) so I really don't think the game's for me...heavy mechanical emphasis on sex or romance in RPGs has never been a high priority for me or my players.


I don't think they are hard to push in the background - basically I think they are rules/moves for making the characters interact and push the drama. That's how I've seen them in use and they don't take up a lot of time. And yes, they were one the things that made me sceptical on first reading the book - but they work fine in play, without being any more exchanging twisted fantasies, than an in game fight is real og scary. And it goes very well hand in hand with character connection rules that is part of character creation.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 01:16:38 PM
Quote from: silva;602033
The Sex moves can be removed from the game without any prejudice. My group never used it, for example. The game already have enough stuff in place to promote intra-party tension and drama.

I love refitting good settings as much as the next man but its the kind of thing that would make me wonder where else the creepiness has slopped over. Is the setting really that good? What makes it unique from any number of similar settings?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 24, 2012, 01:35:16 PM
Quote from: The Traveller;602040
I love refitting good settings as much as the next man but its the kind of thing that would make me wonder where else the creepiness has slopped over. Is the setting really that good? What makes it unique from any number of similar settings?


Apocalypse World doesn't have a setting, per se. It has a range of classes, pretty classic post-apocalypse archtypes, and a set of rules that tightly intertwined with them, both when it comes to combat, social interaction and general drama.

I have seen it run in classic Mad Max'esque PA, tied to a single location (a gasstation in the desert), in a travelling Carnivale-style nomade game, in snow-filled chaos (not unlike The Road) and in a near future-game, set in Copenhagen. So it's quite easy to fit in, and has good rules for coming up with surroundings and challenges. And the drama, plot and tensions arise from, and in, the characters and interplay and in pretty perfect combination with the rules.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 01:42:48 PM
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;602043
Apocalypse World doesn't have a setting, per se.

So its just a system? For pity's sake.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 01:56:30 PM
Trav, the way I see it, the point of the game is not the setting, but the gameplay. The setting is just one more tool to help promote an intended playstyle. The same can be said for the sex mechanics, the barter mechanics, the relationship mechanics, the GM mechanics, etc - all this is in place to enforce a gritty, dramatic, hard-choices/consequences, player-driven gameplay.

So, in this way, the game is similar to the first D&Ds where the focus of the game is the gameplay, not the setting. To "refit" the setting,in this case, doesnt make much sense since its just broad strokes intended to be more defined through play, and will be different from group to group.

About the Sex mchanics, they are in place to help convey the sense of scarcity the game aims for, and make it a scape valve, or a barter product.  (" I need a bodyguard for the next meeting, but have nothing else to offer the Battlebabe.." ). MY group didnt feel confortable with it though, so we simply ignored it, and we didnt regret it, since there are other things in place to enforce the scarcity.

Got it?

Take a look at the game classes (http://apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorld-playbooks.pdf) and see what you think. They say a lot about the game. :)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: One Horse Town on November 24, 2012, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: noisms;602000
I love how people will make all kinds of house rules and special pleading for games they like, but for a game they've decided they don't like, suddenly you have to look at it in terms of the RAW.


I love how people who try to make out that AW is a traditional game always seem to pretend that sexy sex moves aren't part of the game.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 02:08:24 PM
Horse, why do you think Apocalypse World is not an rpg? Please, elaborate.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 24, 2012, 02:10:55 PM
Just read out the disclaimer from Over The Edge before playing, and you should be fine:
Quote
All references to vices and to the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. Over The Edge does not promote satanism, belief in in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitude toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities" (OtE, page 7)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: One Horse Town on November 24, 2012, 02:13:19 PM
Quote from: silva;602048
Horse, why do you think Apocalypse World is not an rpg? Please, elaborate.


I never said such a thing.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: CRKrueger on November 24, 2012, 02:27:51 PM
Quote from: The Traveller;602040
I love refitting good settings as much as the next man but its the kind of thing that would make me wonder where else the creepiness has slopped over. Is the setting really that good? What makes it unique from any number of similar settings?


As Tommy says, one of the main stats is keyed toward the sex moves, also the sex moves are one main way to increase Hx, or history with a character, which is one of the main ways of getting experience.  Yes, I can fuck my way to better marksmanship.

Look at the cover, and tell me what the game is about:

(http://critical-hits.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Apocalypse-World.jpg)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 02:35:10 PM
Quote
As Tommy says, one of the main stats is keyed toward the sex moves
Nope. its keyed towards social interaction (persuasion, manipulation, seduction, etc). Have you never rolled fast talk in your games ?

Quote
also the sex moves are one main way to... getting experience
Also, not true. Its one of the various ways to get experience, and actually is far from being the most effective.

Thus, the sex part can be purged from the game with no prejudice.I already tried it, and can assure you of that. Have you, Krueger?

Again, I sugest a look on the character classes (http://apocalypse-world.com/ApocalypseWorld-playbooks.pdf). And compare the amount of sex moves with the other ones. ;)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: silva;602045
Trav, the way I see it, the point of the game is not the setting, but the gameplay. The setting is just one more tool to help promote an intended playstyle. The same can be said for the sex mechanics, the barter mechanics, the relationship mechanics, the GM mechanics, etc - all this is in place to enforce a gritty, dramatic, hard-choices/consequences, player-driven gameplay.

Ah that's awful. I mean the setting is where real creativity comes into play - this bullshit about character classes (from the linked PDF) like drug dealer, gang member, gunman, psyker, wheelman, I may as well be playing almost any other post apocalypse or indeed cyberpunk game system. Where's the wily bushman? You have any idea how many people these days are picking up some pretty hardcore bushcraft skills courtesy of Bear Grylls and Ray Mears?

An apocalypse in the red light district is what this is, survive downtown Amsterdam. I've lived in downtown Amsterdam, its really not that bad.

I mean look at this, the dope peddling "angel" picture is a black man. The "battle babe", Dangerous & sexy: when you enter into a charged situation, roll+hot. What? How hot is someone smeared in the grime of the end of the world, ducking and weaving behind cover. Anyway everyone knows you shoot the hot ones first, they had to work harder to go up the ranks rather than winding up some gangbanger's plaything.

Quote from: silva;602045
About the Sex mchanics, they are in place to help convey the sense of scarcity the game aims for, and make it a scape valve, or a barter product.

I get that, but there's nothing in this game which would interest me to be honest, just from what I've read so far. Originality, creativity, that's interesting. This, I don't know enough about it to decide whether or not its some creeper's thinly veiled exhibitionism. But it doesn't look good.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 02:44:23 PM
I see implied/brush stroken settings bother you. No problem with that, Trav. The game is simply not for your tastes. I too, like explicit/well developed settings but open a exception to this game since it enforces a sandboxy playstyle that I like.

I just wanted to make it clear about the sex moves.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 24, 2012, 02:46:49 PM
It's not that I can't see where the Apocalypse World sceptisism comes from.

Yes, there's sex in there (but so is there in Over The Edge, Unknown Armies, Vampire, etc) and rules for it (but nowhere does it say, that you should sit around describing the actual fucking, neither in general nor detail) and the writing is acquired taste and more-of-a-badass-than-thou in its style in a rather over the top kinda way.

But that doesn't change, that there is a really good set of rules in there, that really caters high tension and dramatic roleplaying, just like the people who have actually played the game in this thread vouches for.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: One Horse Town on November 24, 2012, 02:47:40 PM
In the words of the author - "System matters."

If it's there, it was put there for a reason.

That's creepy. Like much of his other work.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 02:52:55 PM
Encumbrance rules are there for a reason

Do you always use it? If not, did it change or killed the game as intended for you?

I see the Sex moves are more important thematically then encumbrance ones. But, on the other hand, AW has a lot more other things in place to enforce its theme, so..

Its not at all like The Mountain Witch' Trust rules or D&D' classes and levels or Shadowrun's Essence - THESE are rules that, if ignored, crush the game. Sex moves are not like that.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 03:07:11 PM
Quote
Look at the cover, and tell me what the game is about:

Hmm..  Scarcity ?

Thanks for pointing out. I havent made the connection until now. just thought it was a cool and evocative cover and nothing more. ;)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Ladybird on November 24, 2012, 03:09:21 PM
Quote from: silva;602078
Hmm..  Scarcity ?


How, exactly, is it about scarcity?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 03:13:51 PM
The woman is searching a pot for valuables. And she is so poor she has no clothes to wear.

What else could it be about?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 03:19:54 PM
Quote from: silva;602082
The woman is searching a pot for valuables. And she is so poor she has no clothes to wear.

What else could it be about?
She seems to be inspecting the filter on what looks like a crappy old Sov-bloc gas mask

(http://torufoorum.net/files.php?pid=92290&aid=16837)

No idea why anyone would be using those after the apocalypse though, they've all expired and are out of production as a primitive design in any case.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 03:30:29 PM
Yeah, or she may be looking for condo to have a fuck.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 24, 2012, 03:36:58 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town;602046
I love how people who try to make out that AW is a traditional game always seem to pretend that sexy sex moves aren't part of the game.


Who's pretending they're not part of the game? I said they could be easily excised. My group is living proof of that, because we never used them and it was still the most fun we've had with a game in ages.

Even if you do use them, it's not as if you're sitting around stroking yourself through your pants while you describe to each other in explicit detail what is going on. The most that needs to happen is somebody saying "And then sex is had" or words to that effect. It can even just be implied.

I think the confusion arises because - surprise, surprise - the people who are sceptical about the rules tend not to go to the trouble of reading them, and interpret the word "move" incorrectly. If you say "sex move" then it sounds as if the actions need to be described. It's not the case: "move" is just in-game jargon for, basically, doing something that has some in game consequence. To generalise, having sex usually means that characters end up having "history" with each other, which has some effects on dice rolls and is one minor route to bumping up XP.

If people were making a huge fuss about the sex moves at the time AW was released, that's probably just a reflection of the fact that people on rpg.net like to brag about how liberated they are. It may even be a reflection of the fact that Vincent Baker isn't afraid of courting controversy in the interest of selling game books. Doesn't detract from the fact that the game is a brilliant play even if nobody so much as mentions the word "sex" during an entire campaign.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 03:53:55 PM
Quote from: noisms;602088
Doesn't detract from the fact that the game is a brilliant play even if nobody so much as mentions the word "sex" during an entire campaign.
I'm still trying to pin this down. What makes the game brilliant, which specific mechanics? I mean the general idea of influencing gameplay through mechanics is hardly innovative, D&D did it from the start by giving more XP for treasure than killing monsters.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 04:11:06 PM
Quote
I'm still trying to pin this down. What makes the game brilliant ? which specific mechanics?

For our group its a twofold reason:

1. Quickness and smoothness in play. When you create a char in 10 min, prep an adventure in 5 min, and resolve a combat in another 5 min rolling just once or twice, the gameplay gets ultra-focused on the roleplaying/fiction part, and not on math intensive tactical mini-games. As a result, what you accomplish in a single 3 hours session is much much more than most other games out there.

2. Player-driven, sandbox gameplay built-in in the mechanics. The way the "moves" structure works guarantees that the situations that unfold are dependent on the players´ choices and actions, at the same time giving a tense feelinf to it (since the most mundane roll can have a bad consequence - all rolls have consequences). Its Fallout style "choice-consequence" gameplay at its best. A stone falling on a lake and producing ripples all the time.

The rules for intra-party drama are just the cherry in the cake for me. As is the way the different mechanics fall into place smoothly with one another, the stylish classes concepts (playbooks), and the way the author states explicitly the way the game is meant to be played, and provides procedures for that.

I hear its very similar to old Gygaxian OD&D in these last points. But cant know for sure since I never played OD&D.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: BedrockBrendan on November 24, 2012, 04:16:11 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;602061
As Tommy says, one of the main stats is keyed toward the sex moves, also the sex moves are one main way to increase Hx, or history with a character, which is one of the main ways of getting experience.  Yes, I can fuck my way to better marksmanship.

Look at the cover, and tell me what the game is about:

(http://critical-hits.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Apocalypse-World.jpg)


I have no opinion of this game. Have never read it, and just did a quick search of reviews to catch up. But it is not hard to see how people might get the idea the game is a bit immature based on the cover and the fact it has rules for sex moves (when I found out about these, my first thought was it seemed somewhat juvenile). It could be a perfectly good game once you get past those things. I just can see how it turns people off by making a pretty big first impression with those details.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 24, 2012, 04:27:23 PM
Quote from: The Traveller;602092
I'm still trying to pin this down. What makes the game brilliant, which specific mechanics? I mean the general idea of influencing gameplay through mechanics is hardly innovative, D&D did it from the start by giving more XP for treasure than killing monsters.

Silva answered fairly well, but to boil it down to its essence, a roll has three outcomes: outright success (although this is usually qualified by some minor sacrifice), partial success (you succeed, but you face a tough choice), or failure (something bad happens). So there are always consequences to everything.

It's not something I always want in a game, because I do like more traditional games and play-styles too, but it in AW everything moves very efficiently. Playing it feels like a page turner, because with literally every roll there is some sort of imminent happening. Either the player succeeds, or succeeds but has to make some sort of sacrifice, or fails and something bad happens. So everything is always moving, moving, moving. This gives it a quite breathless feel and means that lots of stuff goes on in a session.

Not for everyone, perhaps, and not what I always want. But it's really enjoyable when it gets going.

EDIT: I should also add that Vincent Baker's writing style irritates me, as does the way he always eggs up the "edginess" factor, but his instructions for DMing the game are also genuinely really good. He does a great job of explaining the way everything works and how to run it effectively, using masses of examples.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 24, 2012, 04:30:43 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;602094
I have no opinion of this game. Have never read it, and just did a quick search of reviews to catch up. But it is not hard to see how people might get the idea the game is a bit immature based on the cover and the fact it has rules for sex moves


I can follow that, but book by it's cover'n'all.

And isn't that a thing with lots of games? LotFP (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IGPfProujAE/TfXdTD2UoTI/AAAAAAAAFrg/mBl4zRVV2So/s200/LOTFP-GH-ED-211x300.jpg) springs to mind. And the first edition of Unknown Armies (http://www.thealexandrian.net/reviews/rpgnet/rpgnet029-unknown-armies.jpg). And Countdown (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61FJYQTXXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) had a swastika on it. Etc.

I would probably describe Apocalypse World as looking mature, but I can see why one might look at it from the opposite angle.

I think Silva described why it is a  good roleplaying game really well, but as I said before, it's  acquired taste, like most roleplaying games.

It's just a a shame that you automatically get the "oh, you like game with sex moves, you freak"-vibe, when Apocalypse World is mentioned.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Justin Alexander on November 24, 2012, 04:35:58 PM
Quote from: The Traveller;602025
I mean, what, sex moves? I haven't really investigated the production but as far as games go that's a major alarm bell right there, I don't mind playing in someone else's imagination but not their creepy fantasy.

The sex moves are really a mechanic about relationships. Not only don't they require you to get into some sort of creepy sexual fetishist detail, they actually serve to discourage that by having a sterile mechanic kick in at the point where you'd otherwise have an opportunity to transition to that sort of thing.

The game basically performs the "fade to black" for you. While you certainly could choose to turn the lights back on and describe your character's sexual experiences, the game doesn't encourage it or even suggest it. In practice, these mechanics encourage the PCs to form really intense emotional relationships with each other... and then tear those relationships apart because there's still an incentive to go hook up with somebody else.

You know how a lot of post-apocalyptic dramas feature a group of characters who emotionally tear themselves apart even though the rational course of action would be to band together and trust one another? This is how Apocalypse World organically achieves that dynamic and it works.

But because it uses the word "sex", virginal neckbeards get upset about it. If it really bugs you, you can replace the words "have sex" with "start dating" and the mechanics of the game won't care.

A few examples that might help clarify things:

Battlebabe Sex Move: If you and another character have sex, your Hx with them on your sheet goes immediately to +3, and they immediately get +1 to their Hx with you on their sheet. If that brings their Hx with you to +4, they reset it to +1 instead, and so mark experience.

Brainer Sex Move: If you and another character have sex, you automatically do a deep brain scan on them, whether you have the move or not. Roll+weird as normal. However, the MC chooses which questions the other character’s player answers.

Driver Sex Move: If you and another character have sex, roll+cool. On a 10+, it’s cool, no big deal. On a 7–9, give them +1 to their Hx with you on their sheet, but give yourself -1 to your Hx with them on yours. On a miss, you gotta go: take -1 ongoing, until you prove that it’s not like they own you or nothing.

And so forth. You'll notice the complete lack of mechanical reach-arounds and blow-jobs.

Quote from: The Traveller;602044
So its just a system? For pity's sake.

In much the same way that D&D is "just a system": The mechanics of the game are not tied to a specific setting, but any game played in the system will clearly share a common milieu. It's setting from the bottom up instead of setting from the top down.

Quote from: CRKrueger;602061
also the sex moves are one main way to increase Hx, or history with a character

That's radically inaccurate.

Only 3 sex moves (angel, chopper, driver) have anything to do with Hx at all (and one of those is Hx neutral -- one character gains Hx while the other loses an equal amount). The other 8 sex moves (battlebabe, brainer, driver, hardholder, hocus, operator, savvyhead, skinner) have nothing to do with Hx at all.

It's actually really trivial to end up with a group who doesn't have an Hx-associated sex moves by pure chance. And even if you do have an Hx-associated sex move in the group, it still won't be the primary method of gaining XP.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 04:45:17 PM
Quote from: Justin Alexander;602099
The game basically performs the "fade to black" for you. While you certainly could choose to turn the lights back on and describe your character's sexual experiences, the game doesn't encourage it or even suggest it. In practice, these mechanics encourage the PCs to form really intense emotional relationships with each other... and then tear those relationships apart because there's still an incentive to go hook up with somebody else.

You know how a lot of post-apocalyptic dramas feature a group of characters who emotionally tear themselves apart even though the rational course of action would be to band together and trust one another? This is how Apocalypse World organically achieves that dynamic and it works.

That makes a little more sense, although most research shows that people tend to become far more socially aware and co-operative during disasters, but...

Quote from: Justin Alexander;602099
And so forth. You'll notice the complete lack of mechanical reach-arounds and blow-jobs.

...I also noticed the violation glove...
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 24, 2012, 04:53:39 PM
Quote from: The Traveller;602101
That makes a little more sense, although most research shows that people tend to become far more socially aware and co-operative during disasters, but...


...I also noticed the violation glove...


This isn't a disaster, though. This is the apocalypse. And there are genre expectations associated with that!
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 04:56:35 PM
Quote
...I also noticed the violation glove...


what da fuck is this ?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 05:02:30 PM
Quote from: silva;602105
what da fuck is this ?

This is in your link, brainer gear:
Quote
violation glove (hand hi-tech)
For purposes of brainer moves, mere skin contact counts as time and intimacy.

Looks like a big ol' rape fist to me. Yes I read the whole thing, I read quickly.

Tell me that's not creepy.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Ladybird on November 24, 2012, 05:06:38 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town;602046
I love how people who try to make out that AW is a traditional game always seem to pretend that sexy sex moves aren't part of the game.

What about the explicit mention of sex in the game would prevent it being a "traditional game"?

I mean, when adventurers blow money on "wine, women and song", it's always somewhat assumed that they aren't inviting the ladies to play tiddlywinks.

Quote from: silva;602082
The woman is searching a pot for valuables. And she is so poor she has no clothes to wear.

What else could it be about?

Woman? I always saw it as a guy... hmm.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Tommy Brownell on November 24, 2012, 05:27:29 PM
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;602071

But that doesn't change, that there is a really good set of rules in there, that really caters high tension and dramatic roleplaying, just like the people who have actually played the game in this thread vouches for.


I agree.

As I said, I found the system worked quite well in tremulus.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: BedrockBrendan on November 24, 2012, 05:38:10 PM
Quote from: DKChannelBoredom;602097
I can follow that, but book by it's cover'n'all.

And isn't that a thing with lots of games? LotFP (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IGPfProujAE/TfXdTD2UoTI/AAAAAAAAFrg/mBl4zRVV2So/s200/LOTFP-GH-ED-211x300.jpg) springs to mind. And the first edition of Unknown Armies (http://www.thealexandrian.net/reviews/rpgnet/rpgnet029-unknown-armies.jpg). And Countdown (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61FJYQTXXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) had a swastika on it. Etc.

I would probably describe Apocalypse World as looking mature, but I can see why one might look at it from the opposite angle.

I think Silva described why it is a  good roleplaying game really well, but as I said before, it's  acquired taste, like most roleplaying games.

It's just a a shame that you automatically get the "oh, you like game with sex moves, you freak"-vibe, when Apocalypse World is mentioned.


Certainly. I am not passing judgement on the game itself (nor am I passing judgement on you for liking it) never having played before. Like I said the system could be perfectly sound. I would even give it a try out of curiosity now if my group wasn't overscheduled at the moment. My only point is those kinds of things will shape peoples reactions and it is a somewhat understandable reaction. In general I find attempts at "mature content" in RPGs offputting (partly because my own experience has been it is usually, though certainly not always, the least mature of my players who buy such games). I don't know about the game with the swastika, and haven't seen the cover or read the book, but that is definitely a symbol I think needs to be used with caution (it may be totally appropriate for the game in question, but if all I knew about a game was it has a swastika on the cover, it would shape my opinion negatively).
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 24, 2012, 05:44:35 PM
Quote from: The Traveller;602106
This is in your link, brainer gear:

Looks like a big ol' rape fist to me. Yes I read the whole thing, I read quickly.

Tell me that's not creepy.


This is kind of a sidetrack, but when was creepiness something to be avoided in a game?

Apocalypse World is dark, weird, and creepy (or can be), but so are lots of games. For what it's worth the violation glove has nothing to do with rape - it does what it says on the tin: allows you to do a brainer move through mere skin contact. Brainer moves are things like planting a command, reading somebody's mine, and other stuff that you'd expect a psychic-type class to be able to do. The violation glove means they can do it by touch. It's no more a "rape fist" than charm person is a rape spell.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Butcher on November 24, 2012, 05:54:56 PM
noisms and silva are doing a pretty good job of selling me on the game.

Dibs on the Gunlugger.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 24, 2012, 06:04:24 PM
Quote from: The Butcher;602114
noisms and silva are doing a pretty good job of selling me on the game.

Dibs on the Gunlugger.


Glad you like the sound of it! It's nice when something positive comes out of one of these threads.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 06:55:28 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan
I don't know about the game with the swastika, and haven't seen the cover or read the book, but that is definitely a symbol I think needs to be used with caution (it may be totally appropriate for the game in question, but if all I knew about a game was it has a swastika on the cover, it would shape my opinion negatively).

I find that more interesting than otherwise, since its a clockwise swastika, the reverse of the nazi symbol.

Quote from: noisms;602111
The violation glove means they can do it by touch. It's no more a "rape fist" than charm person is a rape spell.

In isolation I'd pay it no heed, but in the context of a game with plentiful "sex moves" it does give me pause. Its even called a violation glove.

Anyway yeah I'd probably have to see more specific examples of mechanics one way or the other, glowing recommendations (from people I admittedly respect) aren't very meaningful. Unknown Armies had a revolutionary sanity system, Exalted brought the battle wheel to the table, CP2020 was one of the best known systems to ground roleplaying in the skill+stat+dice mechanic, all of these I understand back to front, marvellous innovations.

How specifically does the game inspire and deal with in-group conflict, how does it promote harsh responses to situations of scarcity, give me numbers! I can work with numbers better than referrals.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Justin Alexander on November 24, 2012, 07:05:26 PM
Quote from: The Traveller;602106
violation glove (hand hi-tech)
For purposes of brainer moves, mere skin contact counts as time and intimacy.

Looks like a big ol' rape fist to me. Yes I read the whole thing, I read quickly.

Tell me that's not creepy.


The only thing I find creepy is the guy who associates "mere skin contact" with "rape". You are an RPGNet Tangency poster and I claim my five pounds. ;)

Brainers are "weird psycho psychic mindfucks"; telepaths and mind-controllers. The violation glove is amping up their ability to perform deep brain scans and in-brain puppet strings. These abilities generally require time and physical intimacy ("mutual intimacy like holding them in your arms, or 1-sided intimacy like they're restrained to a table"); the glove is making it possible for them to just put their hand on you and fuck with your brain.

That is rather creepy, but not in the sexual way that you seem personally obsessed with.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 24, 2012, 07:17:08 PM
Quote from: Justin Alexander;602120
The only thing I find creepy is the guy who associates "mere skin contact" with "rape". You are an RPGNet Tangency poster and I claim my five pounds. ;)

Brainers are "weird psycho psychic mindfucks"; telepaths and mind-controllers. The violation glove is amping up their ability to perform deep brain scans and in-brain puppet strings. These abilities generally require time and physical intimacy ("mutual intimacy like holding them in your arms, or 1-sided intimacy like they're restrained to a table"); the glove is making it possible for them to just put their hand on you and fuck with your brain.

That is rather creepy, but not in the sexual way that you seem personally obsessed with.

No need to get defensive, I'm not the one who invented the sex moves game.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: One Horse Town on November 24, 2012, 08:21:44 PM
Quote from: noisms;602104
And there are genre expectations associated with that!


Are you really saying that 'sex moves' are a PA genre expectation?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Justin Alexander on November 24, 2012, 09:32:12 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town;602123
Are you really saying that 'sex moves' are a PA genre expectation?


Go back, re-read the post you failed to read the first time, and try again.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: silva on November 24, 2012, 09:36:11 PM
Quote from: The Traveller
Anyway yeah I'd probably have to see more specific examples of mechanics one way or the other, glowing recommendations (from people I admittedly respect) aren't very meaningful. Unknown Armies had a revolutionary sanity system, Exalted brought the battle wheel to the table, CP2020 was one of the best known systems to ground roleplaying in the skill+stat+dice mechanic, all of these I understand back to front, marvellous innovations.

How specifically does the game inspire and deal with in-group conflict, how does it promote harsh responses to situations of scarcity, give me numbers! I can work with numbers better than referrals.

Thats the problem right there. The game is not about "numbers". Differently from the mechanics cited, the "moves" structure tap directly into the fiction.

Sorry if I cant explaing it better. Im really tired, Ill complement it later..
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: CRKrueger on November 25, 2012, 02:50:30 AM
Quote from: Justin Alexander;602099
Battlebabe Sex Move: If you and another character have sex, your Hx with them on your sheet goes immediately to +3, and they immediately get +1 to their Hx with you on their sheet. If that brings their Hx with you to +4, they reset it to +1 instead, and so mark experience.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;602099
Only 3 sex moves (angel, chopper, driver) have anything to do with Hx at all (and one of those is Hx neutral -- one character gains Hx while the other loses an equal amount). The other 8 sex moves (battlebabe, brainer, driver, hardholder, hocus, operator, savvyhead, skinner) have nothing to do with Hx at all.

You meant Angel instead of Battlebabe up top I think.  I'll admit that not everyone can fuck their way to better marksmanship, only 3 of the classes.  :D
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 25, 2012, 02:51:39 AM
Quote from: One Horse Town;602123
Are you really saying that 'sex moves' are a PA genre expectation?


Remember this handsome couple from Mad Max 2?
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/DKChannelboredom/MMCouple.jpg)
I'm pretty sure there were some kinda crazy sex moves involved.

And in the less (far far less) iconic end of the genre, there's an odd male-rape scene in The New Barbarians (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084424/). The most scary part of that movie is still the golf cars that the evil marauders ride around in.

So no, it not a must in the PA genre, but it's there.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 25, 2012, 02:54:06 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;602153
I assume you didn't mean to contradict yourself and meant 4.  I'll admit that not everyone can fuck their way to better marksmanship, only 4 of the classes.  :D


A bit like you can kill orcs in D&D and raise your "Knowledge: The Planes" with the xp gained :)
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: CRKrueger on November 25, 2012, 02:58:43 AM
Silva cuts them out, do any of the AW fans here actually play with the Sex Moves, or are you defending them just because you don't have the balls to say "Yeah Baker's a weird fucker, who cares, he can make a great game."
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 25, 2012, 04:49:25 AM
Quote from: One Horse Town;602123
Are you really saying that 'sex moves' are a PA genre expectation?


It does help if you actually read things properly, you know. Traveller was talking about the expectation of in-group conflict and lack of broad social cooperation and hinting it was unrealistic. I pointed out it's a genre expectation.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: DKChannelBoredom on November 25, 2012, 05:52:40 AM
The sex moves' been used in Apocalypse World games that I have been part of. They haven't featured prominently, rarely between characters and, obviously, never described in great detail. Like JA says, it's very much a behind-closed-doors thing, just as described in the rules.

And it hasn't been any weirder than when characters punch out each other teeth or takes shots at one another.

And I also think Baker is a bit of a weird fucker, who has made at least one great roleplaying game.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: noisms on November 25, 2012, 05:56:13 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;602156
Silva cuts them out, do any of the AW fans here actually play with the Sex Moves, or are you defending them just because you don't have the balls to say "Yeah Baker's a weird fucker, who cares, he can make a great game."


Er...I think we've all pretty much said that, haven't we?
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: The Traveller on November 25, 2012, 10:37:15 AM
Quote from: silva;602131
Thats the problem right there. The game is not about "numbers". Differently from the mechanics cited, the "moves" structure tap directly into the fiction.

Sorry if I cant explaing it better. Im really tired, Ill complement it later..

Thanks yeah, concrete examples are usually better than anything else.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Justin Alexander on November 25, 2012, 04:28:49 PM
Quote from: CRKrueger;602153
You meant Angel instead of Battlebabe up top I think.  I'll admit that not everyone can fuck their way to better marksmanship, only 3 of the classes.  :D


I did indeed. Thanks for the correction!

Quote from: The Traveller;602179
Thanks yeah, concrete examples are usually better than anything else.


One of the things I find specifically interesting about Apocalypse World is that it provides a very specific game structure (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/15126/roleplaying-games/game-structures) for the GM in a way that most RPGs haven't for the past 30 years.

I've seen a couple people GM it: The first guy just ran it like any other RPG and it was OK; looked like any other session ran by that guy. The other guy actually did what the rulebook told him to do and it was amazing.

Apocalypse World gives the GM three things: Agendas, Principles, and Moves.

The agendas basically say, "Follow the principles, obey the rules, and be honest to yourself and to your prep." The principles are a good collection of generic and/or specific GM advice. It's good shit, but nothing special.

But then there are the moves. And what Apocalypse World says is: These are the thing you can do as a GM. You can't do anything else. "Whenever there's a pause in the conversation and everyone looks to you to say something, choose one of these things and say it."

My first reaction as a GM was to say, "What the fuck? I AM THE GOD OF THIS TABLE AND ALL SHALL KNEEL BEFORE ME!" Or something like that. But what I'm telling you is that if you lay that attitude aside and just do what the game tells you, the combination of moves and the threats that you've prepped will create a unique game. It's not the One True Way of gamemastering, but it might be the One True Way of playing Apocalypse World.

For example: The driver says, "Fuck, I really need to patch up my axle before it snaps completely. Can I find any tools in this hell hole?" My common instincts as a GM would probably lead me to say something like, "Sure. Poking around the garage in his hardhold yields a rusty toolkit."

But hang on a sec: Check your move list. Does it say anything about "give the PCs what they want". Nope. I'm going to have to make them buy ("you ask around and they point you at Bobby 'n Steve; they run the hardhold's garage and might be willing to let you borrow their tools, but they're going to want something in return; Bobby spots your dead wife's locket hanging around your neck, 'That's purty.''"). Or may I'll put someone in a spot ("you scrounge up some tools, but when you come back you find a bunch of sheet metal rat-kids clambering all over your ride; they're scraping the paint job up something fierce").

And, just like that, the game's structure has forced me into reinforcing the bleak, post-apocalyptic despair of the implied setting.

The analogy I draw is the guy who wants to run a "hexcrawl", but doesn't want to deal with daily movement rates; doesn't want to have the PCs explore; and doesn't want to roll for random encounters. And then he wonders why the hexcrawl doesn't work for him.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: CRKrueger on November 25, 2012, 08:15:41 PM
Quote from: Justin Alexander;602209
One of the things I find specifically interesting about Apocalypse World is that it provides a very specific game structure (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/15126/roleplaying-games/game-structures) for the GM in a way that most RPGs haven't for the past 30 years.
{snip}
And, just like that, the game's structure has forced me into reinforcing the bleak, post-apocalyptic despair of the implied setting.
This I will agree with, it's a very unique approach.

The player does have some metagame choices to make, but there is no shared narration.  The GM interprets all results, the players have no control over anything but their characters.  The idea of "GM moves" that enforce the setting is a, well not sure how to put it, but a kinda Storygamey way to run a roleplaying game (which is why it gets flagged as a storygame, it uses the lingo, but not really the mechanics), but it's not a storygame.

In a completely traditional game, the GM has to be fair and impartial - since he can really do anything, if he decides to construct a particular story for the characters, then it becomes a boring railroad.  Normally rules that limit the GM are from the point of view of shared narration, character empowerment, all that stuff that drives trad guys crazy.

In this game, the GM has limits, but they aren't put there for the purpose of handcuffs, they're put there for the purpose of focusing the GM's creativity on the setting in question.

People always say absolute freedom inhibits creativity, limits enhance it, well that is the concept behind the "GM moves".  It's not a "show me where the bad GM touched you" kind of game at all.

It's unfortunate that first of all, this game was made by Vincent Baker (which is automatically going to turn people off from his history), and two that the jackass couldn't stop himself from putting in the sex moves and the gimp on the cover, because I do think this is a very intriguing design.  I think the different *World hacks will be interesting.
Title: Apocalypse World - where is the love ?
Post by: Doctor Jest on November 29, 2012, 12:49:09 AM
I can't comment on Apocalypse World, but I just finished reading Dungeon World. It was only 10 bux and I was curious.

There's nothing particularly story gamey about it; I don't see any mechanics that are designed to produce or promise any form of narrative output, nor any mechanics that let the players act outside their PCs.

I can't say on how it plays yet, but I'm going to give it a test.