Quote from: SettembriniIf you can play Empires in Arms or Battletech with your grandma and little cousin, more power to you. But they are unsophisticated gamers in my book.

Unsophisticated gamers?!?  If you can play Empires in Arms I don't think the term "unsophisticated" applies, regardless of age.

Sorry, I meant to say:

You can´t play that [ASL or Runequest and the likes] with your grandma, that´s why your grandma is an unsophisticated gamer. That´s basically my point, and I cannot see anything offensive in that.

Quote from: joewolzI was really underwhelmed with it.  I own Battlelore and played it before I played Memoir '44.  I think Battlelore is a better application of the rules.

How so? Is card play in BL less random / unbalanced / anticlimactic? That's the one persistent criticism of M44 I came across.

Quote from: SettembriniThe first part is in no way offensive. It´s truth. I HAVE TO play Settler or Liggretto or Caracassonne at family gatherings and children´s birthdays.

If I meet with my gaming buddies, I will not waste my time for such trivial shit. Because we play RPGS or Wargames that are way more sophisticated and specialized. That´s just TRUTH nothing offensive going on.

And you know what? Lots of people find wargames to be trivial shit. No matter how complex they get and whether you get to keep track of ammo reserves, cover and suppression, they're still about soldier guys/ships/whateverthefuck fighting each other. One could then go on to claim in a voice as big, uninformed and gratingly rude as yours that this means that you wargamers have defective and inferior imagination, since you can't separate the metagaming concept of "players employing strategy to defeat each other" from the game's theme of "soldiers employing military strategy to defeat each other". It's like if you're only capable of strategic and tactical thinking if it's all about unit movement and shooting, but not if it's about something different, like resource acquisition, trade or cooperation, because these concepts are just too abstract for you. One could than draw the conclusion from the above that wargames are immature, and designed for people who can't grasp other types of games; kinda like how a 6 year old might be able to grasp the basics of checkers but be unable to play chess at even a basic level. And that's just the TRUTH, nothing offensive going on.



Whee, wouldn't you be pissed off if some stupid crude boorish idiot started spouting ridiculous bullshit like that, dissing your preferred style of games? So how about not being the exact bloody same kind of stupid crude boorish idiot yourself? You personally and subjectively prefer military wargames to other boardgame types, more power to you. Family obligations force you to play certain other types of games more often than you'd like, and probably with casual players of lesser skill, our bleeding little hearts go out to you and your plight in sympathy. But that doesn't give your the moral entitlement to spout hateful garbage at other people's tastes, calling them "crude" and "unsophisticated" just because you happen to have some petty little personal problems with your familygaming. Grow up, emo-boy.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityHow so? Is card play in BL less random / unbalanced / anticlimactic? That's the one persistent criticism of M44 I came across.

I found the cards in M44 to be anticlimactic.  I don't have any really in-depth things to say about it, having only played once, but it was underwhelming.  I was expecting a fast and furious game of WW2 action, and instead got a game that was fairly boring.  It felt like one ineffectual unit was fighting another all the time.  I had fun, but not enough to buy the thing.

Quote from: SettembriniSorry, I meant to say:

You can´t play that [ASL or Runequest and the likes] with your grandma, that´s why your grandma is an unsophisticated gamer. That´s basically my point, and I cannot see anything offensive in that.

Ah, ok.  But somedays I feel like ASL and some days Arkham Horror.  Both can be great fun to play, and frankly I am much more likely to get people together to play Arkham Horror than ASL.  

As much as I do appreciate a hardcore wargames, sometimes "beer and pretzel" games are more entertaining and certainly more social.

Premier, your point is nonexistant.

If you had paid attention, you would have read, that I DO play unsophisticated games.

I just don´t see the point in playing them at opportunities where I could play something else, something that I can´t play with any random person on earth.

And that point doesn´t go away, and is not offensive. It´s truth.

Quote from: SettembriniI just don´t see the point in playing them at opportunities where I could play something else, something that I can´t play with any random person on earth.

That makes sense.

Quote from: SettembriniAnd that point doesn´t go away, and is not offensive. It´s truth.

I agree, although the way you put it earlier was a tad aggressive.

That´s because I DO get angry when RPG-gatherings are transformed into Ligretto or Table-Soccer events.

I HAVE non-sophisticated-gamer friends & family, THANK YOU!
That´s not why I joined the club.

That was a rather unsophisticated contribution to the discussion, Sett.

Well, well, what would you say, if everybody at a convention was actually playing Carcassonne instead of something real?

About the same as a convention where everyone was playing any one game and it wasn't the one I liked.  If I went there wanting to play a game like Carcassonne it would be just fine though.

It's not that you don't have a point -- you're just making it in a very ham-fisted and *unsophisticated* way.  Which, considering what you're ranting about is more than a little ironic.

So what is it people get out of eurogames?

Because Pundy's point rings true to me: they're about nothing.

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo what is it people get out of eurogames?

Because Pundy's point rings true to me: they're about nothing.

Faster Game, Easier Rules, More Social, etc.

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo what is it people get out of eurogames?

Because Pundy's point rings true to me: they're about nothing.

Well they're still games and I play games to win and have fun.  I'm a casual eurogamer: I don't think they're the alpha and omega of gaming, but they do appeal to me because of their usual selling points: easy to learn, nice production values, etc.

The whole "thematic" and "about something" argument is, frankly, a bit baffling to me.