American boardgames and German/European boardgames, what's the difference?

Pierce Inverarity · January 14, 2008, 11:24:32 PM

So, they're over soon, they instigate sociability in the manner alcohol does, and their easy rules mean they fade into the background.

In other words, there's nothing intrinsically valuable about these games as games?

Pete · January 14, 2008, 11:32:56 PM

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo, they're over soon, they instigate sociability in the manner alcohol does, and their easy rules mean they fade into the background.

In other words, there's nothing intrinsically valuable about these games as games?

Well I'm not sure its possible for game rules to fade into the background, no matter how easy or light, but I do agree with everything else.

Settembrini · January 15, 2008, 06:02:12 AM

Well, well. There are A FEW of those games that have some clever mechanisms.

La Citta or Puerto Rico, for example.

Blackleaf · January 15, 2008, 06:39:53 AM

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo, they're over soon, they instigate sociability ~~in the manner alcohol does~~, and their easy rules mean they fade into the background.

~~In other words, there's nothing intrinsically valuable about these games as games?~~

Yes.

Callous · January 15, 2008, 08:56:57 AM

Quote from: PeteThe whole "thematic" and "about something" argument is, frankly, a bit baffling to me.

I agree. Sometimes a game is just a game. It doesn't always need to be a historic sim.

Pierce Inverarity · January 15, 2008, 01:37:55 PM

This is funny.

Perhaps it works if I write out the question in boldface?

So what is intrinsically valuable about these games as games?

Settembrini · January 15, 2008, 01:56:39 PM

They have been playtested thoroughly.

That´s about it.

Callous · January 15, 2008, 02:29:29 PM

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo what is intrinsically valuable about these games as games?

Well, nothing, but so what. I play games for fun. Not because the "game" has a value in its own right. Hardcore wargames or other simulations have no intrinisic value either. If you are really interested in the history of the period being portrayed, I think you'd do better spending time in a library than playing a game simulation.

Settembrini · January 15, 2008, 02:32:52 PM

This is a site for the DISCUSSION of GAMES.

With the attitude you just reveiled, you should not participate in such endeavours.

Callous · January 15, 2008, 03:07:18 PM

Quote from: SettembriniWith the attitude you just reveiled, you should not participate in such endeavours.

I hope you aren't referring to me. I'm not the one writing off whole types of games as having no value. A games "intrinsic value", to me, is the enjoyment I get from playing it. That is what's important to me. Otherwise it's worth is in its material components (i.e. not much). I don't see why we have to label types of games as having some other "intrinsic value". It seems just another way to claim our games are better than your games.

Overall, I just think that there are different games for different people in different moods.

Pierce Inverarity · January 15, 2008, 03:44:39 PM

There's a muddle here, Callous. Fun can be generated intrinsically and extrinsically. You're claiming the latter. The games generate fun all around them, but they themselves aren't fun as games.

What I'd like to hear, out of actual curiosity because I do think Premier may have half a point or more, is a case for these games as games.

Blackleaf · January 15, 2008, 03:58:40 PM

Rather than retyping or quoting a lengthy post, see this analysis of Ameritrash vs Eurogame vs Wargmae.

Blackleaf · January 15, 2008, 04:07:43 PM

Eurogames appeal to people who do not enjoy many of the qualities of an "American Style" boardgames:

* More Complicated Rules
* Often War / Fighting themed
* Direct Player vs Player conflict
* Player Elimination from the Game
* Longer Playing Times
* Greater Dependence on Luck

The "fun" quality is entirely dependent on what elements of a game you, personally, find enjoyable. To say that a Eurogame or American Game is intrinsically "more fun" than the other is purely based on your personal preferences.

Pierce Inverarity · January 15, 2008, 04:08:26 PM

QuoteThe Ameritrash 'Core Priority' is Drama.

So Risk is a soap opera.

It's actually a bit scary, the way in which an apparently large number of people process all sorts of different experiences through television terms.

EDIT: Stuart, can we stop posting lists of what the fun of Eurogames is NOT about?

Callous · January 15, 2008, 04:17:06 PM

I am sorry if I am adding confusion to the thread. That was not my intent. I will have to look at Stuart's link at home. It's blocked here.

I do agree with Stuart's position, that, "fun" is based on personal preferences and is not intrinsic to a game. I doubt you will find any game that everyone thinks is fun. Thus they have no "intrinsic" fun value. I guess my beef is the word "intrinsic". To me, an engineer, the only truly intrinsic value a game has is its heat content. I know I could keep warm for hours with all of my SL/ASL stuff.