Beat to Quarters - The GM declares what happens if I fail, I declare what happens if I succeed, then we draw cards to see whose narration wins, that's a "traditional RPG" these days huh?  Yeah right.

S7S - You're actually claiming that a game where Style allows you to narratively edit the world is a trad RPG?   Of course you are, that's what you do here most of the time proselytize, misinform and eliminate distinctions.

RPGs, sure.  Trad RPGs not even close.

Congrats to Clash, however, his 8th runner-up finish means he was the highest Trad RPG on the list, meaning 8 other narrative RPGS and outright storygames topped the list.

@Clash: Why am I angry?  Narrative bullshit disguised as traditional just pisses me off, if they feel so strongly about their form of play have the fucking balls to do your own thing, not try to cling to RPGs like a fucking parasite.  :rant:

At least that's one thing that makes me angry, the rest of it has to do with not living in Boston.  

Quote from: jhkim;441243Like I said, who votes on these are independent RPG authors.  That includes some people who admire Jared Sorensen and Vincent Baker, but it also includes plenty of other RPG authors like bowley, Underkoffler, and even RPGPundit.  They are all invited to vote.  

And no, Starcluster probably isn't going to win first place because of the set of voters has a great many who aren't into traditional RPGs.  However, I think there is still value in being recognized because it helps a game get noticed by a different set of people.  Many people have commented that they like the awards site even though they ignore the ratings, because they get to see the comments and the lists of games.

StarCluster 3 got game of the year from the RPG Site II, and that surprised and pleased me mightily, but it will never get that from the Indie Awards, and I'm totally cool with that. The thing is, the awards are perceived as biased in favor of the more story game side, so fewer traditional designers participate, which, of course, is the source of the so-called bias. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. D'oh!

-clash

Quote from: CRKrueger;441244@Clash: Why am I angry?  Narrative bullshit disguised as traditional just pisses me off, if they feel so strongly about their form of play have the fucking balls to do your own thing, not try to cling to RPGs like a fucking parasite.  :rant:

At least that's one thing that makes me angry, the rest of it has to do with not living in Boston.  

Actually, a lot of story gamers like trad rpgs as well. Think of it not so much hanging on like a parasite as trying to combine two things they like.

I look forward to gaming with you when you move up here!

-clash

I think I'll throw my hat in for Stars Without Number. Registration is free, and I really can't see any downside to it. The voting may or may not be canted away from traditional RPGs, but the simple extra exposure involved seems worthwhile to me.

Quote from: jhkim;441243Like I said, who votes on these are independent RPG authors.

There will be a natural slant from RPG authors to recognize "original progress" in RPG design, because of the very nature of the gig. Now add to this the type of people (read: storygamers and Forge aficionados) most likely to jump on the "indie" bandwagon, and you'll understand why some view this type of award with a strong helping of skepticism. This reminds me of Bruce Baugh getting insane on RPGnet after Hackmaster won at the Origins Awards:

Quote from: Bruce Baugh in 2003 on RPGnetIf Hackmaster were just on the market like a bunch of other games, I'd have little to say about it. But since Jolly Blackburn et al actually allowed it to be considered as the best RPG of the year and since they found enough gamers willing to agree, then I'm forced to look at the state of a market which regards warmed-over AD&D 1st edition as better than the pulp adventure game I helped created and Jason Blair's intense small game of childhood horrors and Scott Larson's Fudge-based take on pulp and the Wheel of Time adaptation by Charles Ryan, Christian Moore, and Steve Long. One may reasonably and productively debate the relative merits of Adventure, Little Fears, Terra Incognita, and Wheet of Time. Each did bring something fresh to the gaming market while building on the work of various predecessors. (One may also reasonably and productively debate the merits of several other games which didn't make the ballot. I personally supported Exalted rather than Adventure as WW's nominee, and while I don't think Exalted is a better game than Adventure, I think it's fully as good and has flourished ever since, going from strength to strength. There are other 2001 releases that also deserve consideration.)

One may not reasonably or productively argue that warmed-over AD&D1 beats all of these. It's a muddle of deliberate jokes and apparently getting wrapped up in the joke and taking it seriously. It's a calculated slap at everything worthwhile done in gaming in the last 20-odd years, and those who voted for it as the best game of 2001 committed themselves, for whatever reason, to the stance that absolutely nothing worth heeding has happened in gaming since Reagan's first term. This is the counsel of stagnation and death, of nostalgia gone bad, of the failure of imagination. In an ideal world, those people would recognize that they made asses of themselves, apologize, and get a clue. I would settle, however, for so annoying them that they never buy any product I'm involved with again, because the whole body of my work is based on the idea that they're wrong, that there is room for continual progress in gaming and that in fact progress has happened throughout the time since their idol was original. I don't think there's a lot of risk that anyone who thinks Hackmaster is anything but an occasionally amusing joke marketed at far too great length would like anything I do, but just in case anyone does: "Dear Sir, please be advised that I do not wish the patronage of anyone so fundamentally clueless as yourself. My games are intended to support and encourage gamers who wish to try something new and who'd like help in getting from desire to actual play. I have nothing to say to the terminally retrograde, and you have nothing to say to me. This is not the game you're looking for. I am not part of the market you want. Go away."

(I also think it's pathetic that Hackmaster beat out everything from the Chainmail minis to Risk 2210 to Munchkin, but I'm not involved in the other categories.)

And I can't feel anything like serious about an awards process where such an outcome is possible.

Taken from that awesome post from Melan.

Quote from: SineNomine;441250I think I'll throw my hat in for Stars Without Number. Registration is free, and I really can't see any downside to it. The voting may or may not be canted away from traditional RPGs, but the simple extra exposure involved seems worthwhile to me.

Glad to see you joining in!

-clash

Quote from: Benoist;441251There will be a natural slant from RPG authors to recognize "original progress" in RPG design, because of the very nature of the gig. Now add to this the type of people (read: storygamers and Forge aficionados) most likely to jump on the "indie" bandwagon, and you'll understand why some view this type of award with a strong helping of skepticism.

No one should look at the awards as "Any RPG that gets a good award is an RPG that I will like."  People's tastes in RPGs differ, after all.  A lot of people don't particularly like Academy Award winning movies - it's not a sell for them.  

So, yeah, you should look at any awards with a strong helping of skepticism in that sense.  However, I would appreciate not having skepticism in the sense of thinking the awards are rigged or something.

I have no idea what's happening to actually vote for the games and so on. I didn't mean it as some sort of accusation the process is rigged, but rather that there's a natural slant in opinion that will come from the nature/brand of the awards themselves, or rather that there's a likelihood of a slant that explains why people might react to them in a negative way.

Quote from: jhkim;441255No one should look at the awards as "Any RPG that gets a good award is an RPG that I will like."  People's tastes in RPGs differ, after all.  A lot of people don't particularly like Academy Award winning movies - it's not a sell for them.  

So, yeah, you should look at any awards with a strong helping of skepticism in that sense.  However, I would appreciate not having skepticism in the sense of thinking the awards are rigged or something.

Well said, John! And Benoist - this is exactly what I meant. If there were more traditional designers participating, there would be a different slant, because of the nature of the award system. The votes are cast by designers who choose to participate. All qualified designers are invited, but not all participate.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;441258Well said, John! And Benoist - this is exactly what I meant. If there were more traditional designers participating, there would be a different slant, because of the nature of the award system. The votes are cast by designers who choose to participate. All qualified designers are invited, but not all participate.

True.  Another factor is that traditional designers often aren't as unified in their views.  Last year was a bit of an exception in that all the votes were split, but often there is a clear front-runner among the story game designers - like Spirit of the Century - but the votes are more split among traditional designs.

It seems that such a slant is unavoidable in any award nomination. It's not like the ENnies didn't suffer from something similar with regards to products by a certain publisher.

Quote from: flyingmice;441258And Benoist - this is exactly what I meant. If there were more traditional designers participating, there would be a different slant, because of the nature of the award system. The votes are cast by designers who choose to participate. All qualified designers are invited, but not all participate.

-clash

Quote from: HombreLoboDomesticado;441302It seems that such a slant is unavoidable in any award nomination.

I agree with both points.