The RPG Pundit's own game Forward... to Adventure! has been released in pdf and print by Flying Mice Games.
Can you use FtA! for serious sophisticated stories, with lots of politics, intrigue, romance or character development?
Well, sure, you can, but really why would you? FtA! is the game for when you are tired of all that junk, and just want to go back down into the Gnomish mines, travel through the dangerous wilderlands in search of ruins, steal from shops, try eating a wraith corpse, and maybe, if you're really lucky, find Mjolnir.
Get to it, boys and girls, adventure lies ahead.
RPGPundit
pdf * http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=22580
print * http://www.lulu.com/content/1050594
I hate to be skeptical but. . . wasn't this just entering the first rounds of third-party (i.e., impartial) playtest late last month and in early July? Are people now taking the same approach to playtesting that many publishers have with edting (i.e., why bother)?
Quote from: jdrakehI hate to be skeptical but. . . wasn't this just entering the first rounds of third-party (i.e., impartial) playtest late last month and in early July? Are people now taking the same approach to playtesting that many publishers have with edting (i.e., why bother)?
That was actually the THIRD round of playtesting, the second of "impartial" playtesting as you said. And we incorporated a number of minor changes and one relatively major one as a result of these playtests.
In total, this thing has been playtested for a year or so.
RPGPundit
Hi James!:
The game had been alpha and beta playtested before I ever sent it out. I wanted a third round for my own satisfaction, to get direct feedback, and to catch any last minute mistakes. The feedback was excellent, the changes we made were all for the better, but I had no doubt that it had been thoroughlly tested already.
-clash
Hey, congrats! I'm really excited to see some reviews on this!!!
Congratulations, Pundit and Clash. Maybe it will catch Ken Hite's eye :haw:
Is there a PDF preview posted anywhere?
Quote from: pigames.netCongratulations, Pundit and Clash. Maybe it will catch Ken Hite's eye :haw:
Someone should send him a copy! Maybe he would see fit to give it a blurb. :)
Zomben: The print book has a short pdf preview in gray scale. I'll be generating one for rpgnow tonight. It was late by the time I got done uploading last night. :D
-clash
Quote from: Zachary The FirstSomeone should send him a copy! Maybe he would see fit to give it a blurb. :)
I've given up on Mr. Hite. He announced he was going to review Cold Space over a year ago, then never mentioned it. He also hasn't written a column in months.
-clash
Quote from: Zachary The FirstHey, congrats! I'm really excited to see some reviews on this!!!
Then why don't you write one, Zach? I'd be happy to comp! :D
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceZomben: The print book has a short pdf preview in gray scale. I'll be generating one for rpgnow tonight. It was late by the time I got done uploading last night. :D
Ah. Cool, I just looked at it. Well, I'll be looking forward to seeing if you post a preview with a bit more... 'substance' I suppose? The one on Lulu only has the credits pages, and then the TOC. Not really a lot to go by. Me, I'd like to check out the writing style, and get a feel for the game, and I don't get that from the preview on Lulu at all.
Quote from: zombenAh. Cool, I just looked at it. Well, I'll be looking forward to seeing if you post a preview with a bit more... 'substance' I suppose? The one on Lulu only has the credits pages, and then the TOC. Not really a lot to go by. Me, I'd like to check out the writing style, and get a feel for the game, and I don't get that from the preview on Lulu at all.
Understood! The Lulu preview is autogenerated, and I have no control over it. It always seemed stupid to me to use the first X pages as a preview, when everyone puts their credits and ToC in the front! They should grab a dozen pages from somewhere inside the book.
-clash
No Cleric class, eh?
Pretty radical design choice. I like. Certain individuals claim D&D went downhill with the introduction of the Thief class--I say it's the Cleric!
Congratulations Pundit!
Quote from: flyingmiceUnderstood! The Lulu preview is autogenerated, and I have no control over it. It always seemed stupid to me to use the first X pages as a preview, when everyone puts their credits and ToC in the front! They should grab a dozen pages from somewhere inside the book.
-clash
Yes, while there is an option to customize the Lulu preview, it doesn't work. Of course, you can eliminate the preview function altogether, but that would defeat the purpose in this instance.
Quote from: flyingmiceI've given up on Mr. Hite. He announced he was going to review Cold Space over a year ago, then never mentioned it. He also hasn't written a column in months.
-clash
You know, there's this other site: //www.xanga.com/RPGPundit who does reviews and reviews every single game that's sent his way.
Maybe we should see about giving that guy a review copy? ;)
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditYou know, there's this other site: //www.xanga.com/RPGPundit who does reviews and reviews every single game that's sent his way.
Maybe we should see about giving that guy a review copy? ;)
RPGPundit
He's getting his copies! He already has everything else I have in print, or will once Blood Games II gets there. :D
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceHe's getting his copies! He already has everything else I have in print, or will once Blood Games II gets there. :D
-clash
Oh ok. Watch out for him though, I've heard he hates Indie games.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditOh ok. Watch out for him though, I've heard he hates Indie games.
RPGPundit
Mmph! Now you tell me! :O
-clash
Despite my departure, I felt it would be rude not to drop in and post a link here:
My capsule review. (http://the-tall-man.livejournal.com/105953.html)
Quote from: Levi KornelsenDespite my departure, I felt it would be rude not to drop in and post a link here:
My capsule review. (http://the-tall-man.livejournal.com/105953.html)
You are listed as a playtester in the credits, yet you claim you've never played it. Also Pundit mentions that there were three rounds of playtest, though credits for only two appear in the book (well, in the Lulu preview, anyhow). This does not fare well for honesty in advertising and, again, has me very leery of the playtest quality (especially after reading your remarks about the incongruent nature of the of rules).
Quote from: jdrakehYou are listed as a playtester in the credits, yet you claim you've never played it. Also Pundit mentions that there were three rounds of playtest, though credits for only two appear in the book (well, in the Lulu preview, anyhow). This does not fare well for honesty in advertising and, again, has me very leery of the playtest quality (especially after reading your remarks about the incongruent nature of the of rules).
James,
Come on man, you are talking about a guy who didn't even sign his name to his work. Honesty is not a factor.;)
Clash, congrats on getting the title out. Best of luck with it.
Bill
Quote from: Levi KornelsenDespite my departure, I felt it would be rude not to drop in and post a link here:
My capsule review. (http://the-tall-man.livejournal.com/105953.html)
Thanks, Levi! That's really appreciated!
-clash
Quote from: jdrakehYou are listed as a playtester in the credits, yet you claim you've never played it. Also Pundit mentions that there were three rounds of playtest, though credits for only two appear in the book (well, in the Lulu preview, anyhow). This does not fare well for honesty in advertising and, again, has me very leery of the playtest quality (especially after reading your remarks about the incongruent nature of the of rules).
Levi asked me if he could read through and comment even though he wouldn't have an opportunity to play or run it. I agreed, as I have always valued both in-play and read-through criticism, as both find different things.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceThen why don't you write one, Zach? I'd be happy to comp! :D
-clash
I would love to, with the understanding that I'm currently finishing up 3 other reviews (yes, at the same time) I HAVE to get done first. :o Much as I'd love to, I'm afraid it wouldn't be anything near immediate.
Quote from: flyingmiceLevi asked me if he could read through and comment even though he wouldn't have an opportunity to play or run it. I agreed, as I have always valued both in-play and read-through criticism, as both find different things.
-clash
That's great but that doesn't make him a playtester, Clash. That makes him a
proofreader. There is a difference and, having worked in both capacities, it isn't one that's lost on me. Playtesting is just that -- testing by way of actual play. Proofreading is
reading something and offering suggestions for improvement based on perceived flaws.
Why would one ever represent proofreaders as playtesters? I can think of only one reason. This game
hasn't been thoroughly playtested, and you needed to make it appear otherwise. If there is another reason why you would represent proofreaders as designated playtesters, I'd
love to hear it (I mean that very sincerely, not sarcastically).
As it stands, the remarks about three full playtest rounds when the product itself mentions only
two was disconcerting. The fact that you're admitting to crediting proofreaders as full-on playtesters is doubly troubling. How many rounds of playtesting did this game
actually undergo, and which of the credited playtesters actually
played the game?
The word play in both respects does not make the product or the promoters look good in my eyes, so let's get down to brass tacks and fuck the spin. What's the
reality here -- I need to know before I cough up money for the game.
Quote from: jdrakehThat's great but that doesn't make him a playtester, Clash. That makes him a proofreader. There is a difference and, having worked in both capacities, it isn't one that's lost on me. Playtesting is just that -- testing by way of actual play. Proofreading is reading something and offering suggestions for improvement based on perceived flaws.
Why would one ever represent proofreaders as playtesters? I can think of only one reason. This game hasn't been thoroughly playtested, and you needed to make it appear otherwise. If there is another reason why you would represent proofreaders as designated playtesters, I'd love to hear it (I mean that very sincerely, not sarcastically).
As it stands, the remarks about three full playtest rounds when the product itself mentions only two was disconcerting. The fact that you're admitting to crediting proofreaders as full-on playtesters is doubly troubling. How many rounds of playtesting did this game actually undergo, and which of the credited playtesters actually played the game?
The word play in both respects does not make the product or the promoters look good in my eyes, so let's get down to brass tacks and fuck the spin. What's the reality here -- I need to know before I cough up money for the game.
Apparently, you want to find fault, James. It doesn't matter what I say - I'm apparently either a liar, a trickster, or a con man. Fair enough. If it doesn't matter what I say, I won't bother typing. I don't like people impugning my integrity and this conversation is a waste of my time.
-clash.
Quote from: jdrakehWhy would one ever represent proofreaders as playtesters? I can think of only one reason. This game hasn't been thoroughly playtested, and you needed to make it appear otherwise. If there is another reason why you would represent proofreaders as designated playtesters, I'd love to hear it (I mean that very sincerely, not sarcastically).
The word play in both respects does not make the product or the promoters look good in my eyes, so let's get down to brass tacks and fuck the spin. What's the reality here -- I need to know before I cough up money for the game.
Sounds like a witch-hunt to me.
Quote from: pigames.netSounds like a witch-hunt to me.
Honestly, I'm interested in the game. . . the fact that what the people who are selling it say on the forum doesn't reflect what the product preview indicates is a problem for me. If
any publisher told me that a given product was extensively playtested but only mentioned two rounds of playtest in the product and
then revealed that people credited as playtesters had, in fact,
never actually played the game, I'd be
very skeptical of the quality control exercised prior to the product's release. Expecting a publisher to explain why promotional banter contradicts copy? Yeah.
Total witch hunt.
[Edit: Remarkably, despite Clash's 'holier than thou' retiscence to answer questions concerning such glaring contradictions, I might still buy FtA as Pundit is doing a remarkable job of selling it, despite such inconsistencies. I shudder to think that I'm saying this but. . . I think that you and Clash need to pay more attention to Pundit. Enthusiasm, not exagerration, sells games.]
Although I'm not interested in FtA I just want to say that I have been very satisfied with all the products I have bought from Clash. Honesty is rare commodity in this hobby and it's something that I associate with Clash. I don't want to get into the whole proofreader/playtester discussion, but if Clash says the product was playtested to his satisfaction and any "bugs" were corrected, I'll take his word for it...something I can't say I'll do for most rpg designers.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RAlthough I'm not interested in FtA I just want to say that I have been very satisfied with all the products I have bought from Clash. Honesty is rare commodity in this hobby and it's something that I associate with Clash. I don't want to get into the whole proofreader/playtester discussion, but if Clash says the product was playtested to his satisfaction and any "bugs" were corrected, I'll take his word for it...something I can't say I'll do for most rpg designers.
Regards,
David R
If this were one of Clash's personal endeavors, I wouldn't doubt him for a second, though I've found that several of the third-party BMG releases suffer in this department (i.e., they often seem to lack the benefit of extensive testing in actual play and have a "rushed to production" feel). I know, because
I actually bothered to play them (sometimes I didn't have a choice). Since some butt-hurt individual will no doubt ask for examples, I'll give them. . .
I can think of two such games right off the top of my head -- Point Buy Numbers and Sponge Monkeys from Outer Space. Both of these games suffer from oversight that I believe would have been caught if either had been playtested
thoroughly. PBN is, for the most part, a copy and paste hack of a pre-exisitng product that carries over the major (and oft mentioned) flaws from said product. Sponge Monkeys lacks a clearly defined premise. Both of these are rather large gaffes that any credible measure of blind playtesting would have uncovered.
[Edit: I guess I should mention that, although I disclosed these issues in reviews, I didn't need to ask pointed questions because I wasn't
paying for the products. I am considering paying for FtA and, thus, I'm asking pointed questions because I want to make sure that I'm not
buying Fantasy Sponge Monkeys or Point Buy Dungeons.]
Quote from: jdrakehIf this were one of Clash's personal endeavors, I wouldn't doubt him for a second, though I've found that several of the third-party BMG releases suffer in this department (i.e., they often seem to lack the benefit of extensive testing in actual play and have a "rushed to production" feel). I know, because I actually bothered to play them (sometimes I didn't have a choice). Since some butt-hurt individual will no doubt ask for examples, I'll give them. . .
James, I don't know much about the industry but isn't
FtA one of Clash's "personal endeavours" by this I mean surely he would apply the same standards for all his products.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RJames, I don't know much about the industry but isn't FtA one of Clash's "personal endeavours" by this I mean surely he would apply the same standards for all his products.
Read my entire post. The answer is clearly "no" as products authored by Clash himself stand head and shoulders above several third-party products published under his imprint (again, see Sponge Monkeys from Outer Space and Point Buy Numbers).
Indeed, I went back and read my RPGNow reviews of the products in question and realized that I was pretty generous with the 3-Star ratings. . . because I knew and like the publisher (Clash). If you read the actual reviews, the products merit a 2-Star rating
tops.
No, the same QC standard is
not applied across all BMG products. I get the impression that, in the case of imprint material, it is the actual designer who is in charge of primary QC. Some do a good job (Kyle) and some seem to have ignored it completely (Shanya).
Quote from: jdrakehNo, the same QC standard is not applied across all BMG products. I get the impression that, in the case of imprint material, it is the actual designer who is in charge of primary QC. Some do a good job (Kyle) and some seem to have ignored it completely (Shanya).
Interesting, I wasn't aware of this.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RInteresting, I wasn't aware of this.
Regards,
David R
Be aware that this is just my opinion as a game reviewer who had the opportunity to compare numerous products from literally hundreds of designers side-by-side. Though it all my inbox was literally flooded with whiney "I deserve special treatment!" complaints from many publishers, some of whom post here. It's worth mentioning that Clash wasn't one of them.
[Edit: Just had a thought. It is entirely possible that the seeming "Let the designer deal with QC" approach has changed in the intervening year. It has been a while since I looked at a BMG product. I think that Tribes of Mother Night was the last.]
James, interesting views on some of the games over at BMG and as usual your comments on the industry were appreciated. As far as FtA is concerned if Clash says there was enough playtesting, it's good enough for me.
Pundit, good job on the FtA thread. I've linked the thread to my group who may be interested in your game.
Regards,
David R
The question of exactly what the playtesting consisted of has been answered to the best of my ability in the FtA Q&A thread on the Pundit's Forum.
As to why there's only two sets of playtesters mentioned in the PDF, that's because if you look at the credits its not divided by playtest rounds, but by playtests of the alpha version and the beta version.
In reality, there IS an inconsistency there, but its not what is being implied here; rather, its that Settembrini should probably have been listed in both the Alpha and Beta playtests, the way that Esteban was.
Round 1 of playtesting consisted of everyone listed in the "Alpha Credits", and was run by me personally. Round 2 consisted of Settembrini and Federico Pereira in two different groups (one here in Uruguay, the other consisting of a number of playtest sessions in Germany), and I was not directly involved. Both of these were with the "Alpha" rules.
Round 3 consisted of the people mentioned in the "Beta" credits, and I was not directly involved in these playtests in any way, they were organized and supervised by Clash.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jdrakehI can think of two such games right off the top of my head -- Point Buy Numbers and Sponge Monkeys from Outer Space. Both of these games suffer from oversight that I believe would have been caught if either had been playtested thoroughly.
James, BMT consists of a number of imprints. Clash is Flying Mice. Point Buy Numbers is Chine Games. Sponge Monkeys is Timeless Games. Three different companies, three different ways of doing things. You can't compare one to the other. They all work independently of one another.
Speaking for Sponge Monkeys, it was play tested. I don't know what your definition of thoroughly is, so I can't comment on that. It was play tested for four or five months. No, it didn't include a lot of setting detail (your main complaint with the game), but
that wasn't the thrust of the game. It was designed to be a simple game that required little character development. The play test focused on the mechanic (the part you liked), not the life and times of the Sponge Monkeys. Nonetheless, the short comings you mentioned in the game are valid. These are things I took to heart as I developer, and have since incorporated into my designs. That's where you, the reviewer, plays a crucial role.
I am only wading in here, because it's unfair of you to paint Clash with a broad brush. Clash is very meticulous in his work. He is also a longtime game designer. He is also (and this is most rare) a decent human being.
Quote from: RPGPunditAs to why there's only two sets of playtesters mentioned in the PDF, that's because if you look at the credits its not divided by playtest rounds, but by playtests of the alpha version and the beta version.
Ah, that would be the problem! Typically, the terms 'alpha' and 'beta' refer to rounds of playtest
as well as game revisions ;)
Quote from: JohnnyWannabeThese are things I took to heart as I developer, and have since incorporated into my designs.
I saw that in The Creep Chronicle (my only complaint with it was a lack of thorough editing/proofreading). Very good stuff, per my review at Flames Rising.
Quote from: jdrakehI saw that in The Creep Chronicle (my only complaint with it was a lack of thorough editing/proofreading). Very good stuff, per my review at Flames Rising.
Yes, I saw the review. Thanks. As for editing/proofreading . . . well . . . damn it all! Just once I'd like something to go out that door that didn't have a "there" for "their" or an "accept" for "except" or a paragraph that mysteriously ends, mid-sentence.:mad:
Ah well, you know how it goes.;)
Back to FtA - and all of Clash's projects for that matter. As an insider, I can tell you he spends a lot, and I mean a lot, of time before he lets anything go out the door. When I first got into this "game designer" malarky he was working on Cold Space, a good year or two before it saw the light of day. As a selfish gamer, I kept pressuring him to release Cold Space. I wanted to play the game. It was a long wait.
Quote from: flyingmiceZomben: The print book has a short pdf preview in gray scale. I'll be generating one for rpgnow tonight. It was late by the time I got done uploading last night. :D
I'm looking forward to see that. I'd especially like to see the character sheet... This is one of the first things I check before any purchase.
I'm looking forward to getting a copy once I have a paycheck come in. I was looking for a traditional-school fantasy role-playing game to play with my dad and some friends some time, and it's either this or D&D Cyclopedia. I've got the latter, but I'm enthusiastic about F:TA! as well.
And I can get a copy of it new, in print, which is a plus. Of course, I'll be watching reviews and stuff too.
Quote from: SkyrockI'm looking forward to see that. I'd especially like to see the character sheet... This is one of the first things I check before any purchase.
The Character Sheet is AWESOME! It wasn't mine or Clash's, it was designed by one of my friends, Cristian, and he did an incredible job. Originally he just designed it for the playtest, but it looked so awesome that we decided that neither Clash nor I could do as good a job.
Clash, is there anywhere you could post the character sheet? Because I agree that this is DEFINITELY something gamers should get the chance to see to help them decide.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditThe Character Sheet is AWESOME! It wasn't mine or Clash's, it was designed by one of my friends, Cristian, and he did an incredible job. Originally he just designed it for the playtest, but it looked so awesome that we decided that neither Clash nor I could do as good a job.
Clash, is there anywhere you could post the character sheet? Because I agree that this is DEFINITELY something gamers should get the chance to see to help them decide.
RPGPundit
Oh, man, I love a good charsheet! Get that puppy hosted! :D
Any chance of a package deal for the PDF and the hardcopy?
Quote from: Pierce InverarityNo Cleric class, eh?
Pretty radical design choice. I like. Certain individuals claim D&D went downhill with the introduction of the Thief class--I say it's the Cleric!
Now this is fascinating. I have the same opinion - clerics suck, thieves rule. :D I promise to write a review, but it may be some time before I get there.
Quote from: hgjsAny chance of a package deal for the PDF and the hardcopy?
Unfortunately, they are with different sales outlets. I may be able to do something with coupons...
-clash
As no one wrote about it yet in the thread where it was requested, the character sheet is now up here: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/FTA_Charsheet2.pdf
It's not stunning me, but I've seen way worse, and I'm relieved that there is no artsy decoration crap taking up half the space à WoD: I prefer functional work-horses.
Does everyone need the second page, or do I assume rightly that only wizards need it?
Quote from: MelanNow this is fascinating. I have the same opinion - clerics suck, thieves rule. :D
Quite so. The Cleric drags in alignment, religion, and by extension the Paladin and with him infra-party warfare / y'all-meet-in-a-tavern incoherence. Too high a price for Cure Light Wounds!
Quote from: SkyrockAs no one wrote about it yet in the thread where it was requested, the character sheet is now up here: http://jalan.flyingmice.com/FTA_Charsheet2.pdf
It's not stunning me, but I've seen way worse, and I'm relieved that there is no artsy decoration crap taking up half the space à WoD: I prefer functional work-horses.
Does everyone need the second page, or do I assume rightly that only wizards need it?
Hi Skyrock!
Sorry! I thought the request was in the other thread! :P
Well, there's a place for special abilities and extra posessions, but other than that, no. It's certainly most important to casters.
-clash
Yes, the second side of the sheet is mostly for wizards; non-wizards could just use a blank page to record their items and any special details.
Anyways, what's Awesome about the character sheet is specifically that it is such a workhorse. Its not really pretty or anything, but it IS really remarkably complete, which is very cool, and very practical.
RPGPundit
OK, now I'm finally sold.
I would have liked to have made some more questions about how "collective" (whatever it means) combat works, but yesterday I gave up and ordered it, no doubt the special cheap shipment (1.99€) to the European Union was key. :haw:
I doubt I will have the time to do a review, but I would like to give my opinion when I'm done reading it.
Pundit, I hope your game is what I'm expecting! :pundit:
Quote from: ClaudiusI would have liked to have made some more questions about how "collective" (whatever it means) combat works, but yesterday I gave up and ordered it, no doubt the special cheap shipment (1.99€) to the European Union was key. :haw:
I doubt I will have the time to do a review, but I would like to give my opinion when I'm done reading it.
Pundit, I hope your game is what I'm expecting! :pundit:
I hope you enjoy it!
RPGPundit