"Once you start down the path of the Dark Side, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will."
Horseshit.
Luke uses the Dark Side beginning in Episode Four, when in rage after Kenobi's death(just look at his face), he makes pinpoint blaster shots across the landing bay to kill troopers and blow the door controls.
He continues doing things in anger all through EP. 4 and 5 and finally beats Vader standing triumphant over him with a look of evil glee on his face. If Palpatine hadn't opened his piehole, Luke probably would have snuffed Vader by himself.
So Luke strolls merrily down the Dark Path all the way up to the Abyss, then skips merrily back.
Not to mention that if fucking Vader can be redeemed, anyone can.
So is the "All-Light, No Dark at All" preaching just dogma, Jedi Propaganda, with a balance of Dark and Light being the "True Way"?
Ohhhh, it's even worse than that.
"Darth Vader BETRAYED and MURDERED your FATHER (Subtext: So you should come with me to train as a Jedi and avenge him)."
They are the losing side in a religious war; who are training the son of one of the winners to assassinate his own father. All without letting him know that it's his father.
I'm not saying the Emperor and Vader aren't evil, but Obi-Wan and Yoda most certainly are not good.
EDIT: And yes, I know Yoda says Luke wasn't 'ready for the burden'. But he's at least 20 years old if not older and, I dunno, maybe having your wise mentor work through it with you is better than just saying "Yup, he's your Dad. Now go do your job and kill him."
Quote from: CRKrueger;940228"Once you start down the path of the Dark Side, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will."
Luke uses the Dark Side beginning in Episode Four, when in rage after Kenobi's death(just look at his face), he makes pinpoint blaster shots across the landing bay to kill troopers and blow the door controls.
He continues doing things in anger all through EP. 4 and 5 and finally beats Vader standing triumphant over him with a look of evil glee on his face. If Palpatine hadn't opened his piehole, Luke probably would have snuffed Vader by himself.
"Start down the dark path", define exactly what Yoda meant. (You can't because he didn't)
Your examples are not very good, require reading more into the character than is presented by the movies, and is completely negated by the end of ROTJ, where Luke is tempted by the Dark Side to become the big hero who killed Vader and the Emperor... and he refuses, because he sees what he'd become to do it, literally when he looks at Vader's stump and his mechanical hand.
QuoteSo Luke strolls merrily down the Dark Path all the way up to the Abyss, then skips merrily back.
And then does a pirouette and the cha-cha? Or is it a waltz followed by some tap-dancing?
QuoteNot to mention that if fucking Vader can be redeemed, anyone can.
So is the "All-Light, No Dark at All" preaching just dogma, Jedi Propaganda, with a balance of Dark and Light being the "True Way"?
Spelt out throughout the prequels was the point that the Jedi are not perfect. Some fans seem to have run with this to the conclusion that the Jedi are
EVIL AND STUPID AND CORRUPTED AND DID IT ALL INTENTIONALLY TO FUCK WITH EVERYONE.When they were simply not perfect, and despite all their efforts, one Jedi fell spectacularly.
IMO the idea that there can be some balance is what causes Jedi to fall. That they are the special ones who can ignore the rules and get away with it. Maybe they can, but the odds are going to be against them, and if they fall, they will have the amazing powers of the Jedi, and no responsibility to use it wisely.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940239. . . Luke is tempted by the Dark Side to become the big hero who killed Vader and the Emperor... and he refuses, because he sees what he'd become to do it, literally when he looks at Vader's stump and his mechanical hand . . . .
After completely losing his shit and chopping off a Sith Lord's said hand over somebody talking about getting with his sister.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;940243After completely losing his shit and chopping off a Sith Lord's said hand over somebody talking about getting with his sister.
Exactly.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940239"Start down the dark path", define exactly what Yoda meant. (You can't because he didn't)
Apparently it doesn't mean calling upon anger, rage and aggression when you use the Force, because Luke does that all over the place.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940239completely negated by the end of ROTJ, where Luke is tempted by the Dark Side to become the big hero who killed Vader and the Emperor... and he refuses, because he sees what he'd become to do it, literally when he looks at Vader's stump and his mechanical hand.
...tempted to strike down the unarmed Emperor, and
he actually strikes, intending to kill the Emperor, only stopped by Vader.
...tempted to fight with Vader, even though he doesn't want to, but loses that one too, being goaded into it with the threat to Leia, screaming, charging and fueled by rage, beating Vader down.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940239And then does a pirouette and the cha-cha? Or is it a waltz followed by some tap-dancing?
Describe it how you need to, but if you think what happened represents "forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will." You need an English lesson. ;)
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940239Spelt out throughout the prequels
I've heard that word before, Prequels, but...no, still don't know what that means.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940239Some fans seem to have run with this to the conclusion that the Jedi are EVIL AND STUPID AND CORRUPTED AND DID IT ALL INTENTIONALLY TO FUCK WITH EVERYONE.
You visit SW fan boards? You poor bastard. I'll pray for you. :D
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940239When they were simply not perfect, and despite all their efforts, one Jedi fell spectacularly.
If you bought what Yoda was selling, his son should have too.
Shit just doesn't work the way Yoda and Ben said it did.
There is no irrevocable choice that you cannot come back from.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940244Exactly.
No, not exactly. It's not until Luke flips his nut over Vader saying he'll turn Leia that Luke can actually beat Vader. Luke's rage is what gives him the power to defeat a Sith Lord.
Anakin is supposed to be the chosen one to bring "balence" to the force. The way I read that he does. Not by killing the emperor at the end of Jedi but by destroying the Jedi at the end of Sith.
The force needed balancing because the Jedi were too powerful. Sinking into arrogance and absolutism. Hubris is there great sin and ultamate downfall. They are blind to the Sith in their midists and by expecting perfection from Anikin drive him straight into his arms. (Too bad about the younglings)
I see a strong metaphore between the Jedi's arrogance and Anikins down fall, and corruption in American politics. The press and the establishment are thr Jedi the voters are Anikin and Trump is the Emperor.
Well, thats what you get for listening to Hitler and Bert from Sesame Street
Quote from: Headless;940250Anakin is supposed to be the chosen one to bring "balence" to the force. The way I read that he does. Not by killing the emperor at the end of Jedi but by destroying the Jedi at the end of Sith.
The force needed balancing because the Jedi were too powerful. Sinking into arrogance and absolutism. Hubris is there great sin and ultamate downfall. They are blind to the Sith in their midists and by expecting perfection from Anikin drive him straight into his arms. (Too bad about the younglings)
I see a strong metaphore between the Jedi's arrogance and Anikins down fall, and corruption in American politics. The press and the establishment are thr Jedi the voters are Anikin and Trump is the Emperor.
The way I read it is that the Jedi should never have listened to some stupid prophecy in the first place, and actions are being fitted to it after the fact. Mostly because when you have lots of people viewing the future and then taking steps to change it, your ancient Chosen One Prophecy is probably a bunch of bunk after about 5 minutes. There is no Chosen One, just stupid people making stupid decisions.
"Once you start down the path of the Dark Side, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will."
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/8d/86/d6/8d86d67aa21b39c707077881ae36ccc6.jpg)
Quote from: Black Vulmea;940247No, not exactly. It's not until Luke flips his nut over Vader saying he'll turn Leia that Luke can actually beat Vader. Luke's rage is what gives him the power to defeat a Sith Lord.
He sure does. But he doesn't beat the Dark Side until he throws his saber away.
Quote from: CRKrueger;940246There is no irrevocable choice that you cannot come back from.
Obviously, since Anakin was redeemed.
But the great danger of a fallen Jedi is also shown in Vader.
And so, when did Luke start down the dark path? Was it when he VIOLENTLY and ANGRILY SCREAMED AT HIS UNCLE over not being able to go to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters? Maybe it was when he SADISTICALLY shot down the pursuing TIE fighters when fleeing the Death Star? I mean, goddamn, you can see Luke laughing at the deaths of those TIE pilots! He's practically a psychopath at that point!
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940266Obviously, since Anakin was redeemed.
But the great danger of a fallen Jedi is also shown in Vader.
And so, when did Luke start down the dark path? Was it when he VIOLENTLY and ANGRILY SCREAMED AT HIS UNCLE over not being able to go to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters? Maybe it was when he SADISTICALLY shot down the pursuing TIE fighters when fleeing the Death Star? I mean, goddamn, you can see Luke laughing at the deaths of those TIE pilots! He's practically a psychopath at that point!
So, is this some kind of weak attempt at distraction from the fact that Luke was drawing on the Dark Side when he finally beat Vader or just totally pointless raving?
Quote from: CRKrueger;940273So, is this some kind of weak attempt at distraction from the fact that Luke was drawing on the Dark Side when he finally beat Vader or just totally pointless raving?
Luke was drawing on the Dark Side when he beat Vader. That's pretty clear from the movie.
Yoda was exaggerating when he said that the Dark Side would dominate someone's destiny. That's clear as well.
It doesn't mean that acting from anger is perfectly okey fine for Jedi.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;940281Luke was drawing on the Dark Side when he beat Vader. That's pretty clear from the movie.
Yoda was exaggerating when he said that the Dark Side would dominate someone's destiny. That's clear as well.
It doesn't mean that acting from anger is perfectly okey fine for Jedi.
The interesting thing I think would be if in Episode 8, we find out Luke's failure in successfully re-creating the Jedi Order, and being responsible for the Knights of Ren fiasco and the creation of NeoVader90210 was due to the fact that he did stray from the path, he never completed his training, he beat Vader using the Dark Side and only turned away from Falling at the last moment, which meant he wasn't the One to reinstate the Jedi Order, Rey is.
That makes Old Luke a Moses-like figure. Because of his failing, he cannot go the whole way, just like Yoda told him.
#MakeYodaWiseAgain
Jesus I'd never watch another SW movie if they pulled that sort of crummy "Once a crook allways a crook" BS.
Half the series has been saying "fuck you" and redeeming people one way or another. Even Boba Fett and Vendress get some.
Jumping movies to "Enter the Dragon" we learn from another Wise master, we need "emotional content, not anger" though it seams anger will do in a pinch.
Also Luke cand over come the Dark side until he confronts his "dark" feelings. At the start he ingnores the danger. There is no emotional maturity down that road.
Quote from: CRKrueger;940282and the creation of NeoVader90210
OMGpeedmypants
Quote from: CRKrueger;940228So Luke strolls merrily down the Dark Path all the way up to the Abyss, then skips merrily back.
Not to mention that if fucking Vader can be redeemed, anyone can.
So is the "All-Light, No Dark at All" preaching just dogma, Jedi Propaganda, with a balance of Dark and Light being the "True Way"?
The redeemed ghost Vader never made sense to me.
1000 evil acts + 1 "okay" act = Holy Ghost Dude? doesn't work in my book.
Maybe...Vader wasn't redeemed.
Maybe....all Power Jedi Masters get to be ghosts.
Maybe...Anakin in death just likes his kid.
I don't have the original laser discs, but what are the interactions between the Yoda, Ben and Anakin ghosts?
I heard Crybaby Vader got CGI'd into the current edition DVD. What about the current interactions?
Quote from: Tristram Evans;940251Well, thats what you get for listening to Hitler and Bert from Sesame Street
Those two are always causing shit.
Theres occasionally been some implications in the peripheral material that sometimes being turned to the dark side is akin to being possessed by "something" or a sort of subtle mind control/mind alteration. And its also been depicted as allmost like an addictive drug.
So breaking that control would equal redemption as its a return of the real person.
Mark Hamill is on record saying he really wanted Luke Skywalker to have already fallen to teh Dark Side by the time he defeated Vader. His motivation wasn't redeeming Vader, it was to make Vader HIS henchman and replace the Emperor.
Lucas didn't like it, but you can sort of see Hamill trying a bit of that spin during the lightning scene if you squint real hard.
Quote from: CRKrueger;940228Luke uses the Dark Side beginning in Episode Four, when in rage after Kenobi's death(just look at his face), he makes pinpoint blaster shots across the landing bay to kill troopers and blow the door controls.
I'm not buying it, as that's something that anyone who's a good shot with a blaster could have done. (Hell, Lando did that much in ESB.) And Luke's been playing whack-a-mole with whomp rats since before he got pubes.
And I'm not ready to equate "makes a scrunchy angry face" with "consumed by the Dark Side". That's vague enough that it could just as reasonably imply that Luke was consumed by the Dark Side when he was being strangled by the dianoga, too. "Make a scrunchy angry face" was the cornerstone of Mark Hamill's acting ability at the time, after all.
You guys are aware Darth Vader isn't Luke's father at all, right? I never bought it. :p
Vader being redeemed at all is a cop out. Anakin was shown to be an emotionally stunted and incredibly selfish character. It's always about what he wants and killing Palpatine is no different.
He didn't chuck the wrinkly old fucker down the reactor shaft out of live or goodness, he did it because Luke was his kid and he wanted Luke beside him and Palpatine threatened to take that away.
Hell the prequels make a lie of the knights errant vibe Ben and Yoda have and make them part of an oppressive regime that actively lies to the government that provides everything they need or want, and honestly seem to believe that toppling the Republic because "Hey your boss is a bad guy" will have zero repercussions.
Anikin did bring balance to the Force. There were tonnes of Jedi and only 2 Sith before Him. After wards two of each.
When he's gone things start to get out of balance again.
Quote from: Headless;968329Anikin did bring balance to the Force. There were tonnes of Jedi and only 2 Sith before Him. After wards two of each.
When he's gone things start to get out of balance again.
And when Vader's dead and only Luke is left? He tries to build another Jedi Order and Sith magic their way out of the galaxy's asshole and start shit all over again.
Fanfuckingtastic.
Quote from: Headless;968329Anikin did bring balance to the Force. There were tonnes of Jedi and only 2 Sith before Him. After wards two of each.
When he's gone things start to get out of balance again.
So the real solution is for the Jedi and Sith to commmit suicide/kill each other off until their numbers are always exactly equal!
(I'm pretty sure "the balance" isn't some census problem.)
Quote from: Tristram Evans;940251Well, thats what you get for listening to Hitler and Bert from Sesame Street
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Actually the new siths are not siths at all. They are actually closer to gray jedis as the Knights of Ren uses both sides of the force. Hell it is suspected that the new emperor may actually be Mace Wendo.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;968365So the real solution is for the Jedi and Sith to commmit suicide/kill each other off until their numbers are always exactly equal!
If there are a few thousand Jedi and a few thousand Sith, a few dozen more on either side doesn't shift the balance that much and can be corrected by adjusting the enrollment numbers the following years.
If the Jedi had their way the whole galaxy would look like the emotion dead state of Equilibrium.
While the Sith are nearly all negative emotions.
Luke, and Anakin represented the middle ground. Anakin gets manipulated into the Sith and Luke gets manipulated into the Jedi.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;968365So the real solution is for the Jedi and Sith to commmit suicide/kill each other off until their numbers are always exactly equal!
Or just eliminate them both.
Quote from: Pyromancer;968535If there are a few thousand Jedi and a few thousand Sith, a few dozen more on either side doesn't shift the balance that much and can be corrected by adjusting the enrollment numbers the following years.
Well, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek there. I don't think the actual numbers were a balance issue. I think it references mental unbalance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgBpoiC8qGA
"Bring balance to the force and destroy the Sith"
GL has been kind of a retcon wanker about his movies, but he's at least consistent that bringing balance to the Force entails destroying the Sith.
I think I can then safely connect the Sith to the unbalance.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;969057Well, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek there. I don't think the actual numbers were a balance issue. I think it references mental unbalance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgBpoiC8qGA
"Bring balance to the force and destroy the Sith"
GL has been kind of a retcon wanker about his movies, but he's at least consistent that bringing balance to the Force entails destroying the Sith.
I think I can then safely connect the Sith to the unbalance.
I wouldn't put much stock in anything George Lucas said or wrote about Star Wars, the Jedi, and the rest. It's all clearly been made up as he went along after 1977. Darth went from being Lord Vader's first name to an evil title. None of it makes much sense when taken as a whole.
Quote from: Dumarest;969074I wouldn't put much stock in anything George Lucas said or wrote about Star Wars, the Jedi, and the rest. It's all clearly been made up as he went along after 1977. Darth went from being Lord Vader's first name to an evil title. None of it makes much sense when taken as a whole.
Well, there is that and the fact that Disney doesn't give a tinker's damn about what George Lucas thinks about anything, and they paid him for the privilege of not caring. GL is, as best I can gather, pretty put out about all this 'Grey-Force/Ones in the Middle' shit, since it more or less takes a giant stinking dump all over his idea about Light=Good, Dark=Evil morality in Star Wars, yet that is not only what Disney is giving us, they've spent years and... I'm not even sure this is hyperbolic... billions of dollars setting up.
Much Props to Disney's Star Wars team for making it inoffensive and even smart looking. So much better than some of those shaky magical-girl 'I'm not going to be good or evil, I'm going to be better by being neutral' crap that was all the rage about five years ago (Lost Girl, that one witch movie that (shockingly) went with the equally dumb "True Love is sisterly not romantic" that was all the rage around the same time as the twist, and probably some other films/tv shows I forgot about or never knew about...). Of course, they have it easy... GL's philosophy behind the force is appallingly juvenile and shallow, to the point where its best that he did aim more for kiddie audiences as the setting expanded.
Star Wars was always for kids. Deal with it.
Quote from: Voros;969704Star Wars was always for kids. Deal with it.
Well, for anyone who enjoys an action-adventure romp. It's when they try to make Star Wars SERIOUS and MEANINGFUL that it quickly becomes silly. "They" meaning both the filmmakers and the fans.
The best Star Wars stuff being produced now is the Lego comedy series.
Certainly adults can love it. I still love Empire. But like Pixar and the best of Disney while adults can enjoy it it is meant for kids, as it should be, nothing the matter with that. As you say it's when people try and turn these things all earnest and adult that they become most silly. Alan Moore and David Mazzucchelli have noted the same thing about superhero comics.
Quote from: Voros;969736Certainly adults can love it. I still love Empire. But like Pixar and the best of Disney while adults can enjoy it it is meant for kids, as it should be, nothing the matter with that. As you say it's when people try and turn these things all earnest and adult that they become most silly. Alan Moore and David Mazzucchelli have noted the same thing about superhero comics.
I agree. I'm always mildly embarrassed for grown men who try to tell me super hero comic books are
Serious Literature and then try to prove it by showing me poorly written and drawn graphic violence and sex scenes, as if that makes them "mature."
And the Lego Star Wars shows are hilarious for adults and children. They hit all the levels with the silliness and subtlety. They also poke fun at some of the plot holes and stupid things characters do in the films.
A very serious argument could be made that nothing should be written 'for the kids', at least not in the current fashion. It is acceptable to allow for fiction that is written for younger audiences (such as by having younger protagonists), but this idea of cutesy light and airy, patently insulting to adult audiences style 'kiddy fare' is more than a little patronizing to children and is annoying for adults to sit through (such as parents).
If we accept that A New Hope is kiddy-fare, it proves in essence my point. Luke loses his entire family in a rather grim moment, and eventually has to shoulder the burden of fighting the Empire and redeeming the Jedi Order despite the loss of his mentor. Heavy stuff compared to most 'kid flicks'. Going back a bit further we have Old Yeller, which was aimed at young audiences, but ends with (SPOILER!!!!) shooting the damn dog in the face!
Most of the popular 'kid movies' I can think of in recent years have still managed to retain some of that 'adult edge', only discarding it in the inevitable cash-grab and grossly inferior sequels.
The flip side of this, as alluded to earlier, is that in attempting to make 'adult specific fare' you get gratuitous nudity and often insultingly over the top violence, or alternatively gross out humor catering to the lowest common denominator and apparently written by, ironically, children.
Quote from: Spike;970154A very serious argument could be made that nothing should be written 'for the kids', at least not in the current fashion. It is acceptable to allow for fiction that is written for younger audiences (such as by having younger protagonists), but this idea of cutesy light and airy, patently insulting to adult audiences style 'kiddy fare' is more than a little patronizing to children and is annoying for adults to sit through (such as parents).
If we accept that A New Hope is kiddy-fare, it proves in essence my point. Luke loses his entire family in a rather grim moment, and eventually has to shoulder the burden of fighting the Empire and redeeming the Jedi Order despite the loss of his mentor. Heavy stuff compared to most 'kid flicks'. Going back a bit further we have Old Yeller, which was aimed at young audiences, but ends with (SPOILER!!!!) shooting the damn dog in the face!
Most of the popular 'kid movies' I can think of in recent years have still managed to retain some of that 'adult edge', only discarding it in the inevitable cash-grab and grossly inferior sequels.
The flip side of this, as alluded to earlier, is that in attempting to make 'adult specific fare' you get gratuitous nudity and often insultingly over the top violence, or alternatively gross out humor catering to the lowest common denominator and apparently written by, ironically, children.
I agree wholly one of the longer running cartoons still on the air Is winx club(also the most popular magical girl show in the world) and I personally think A large part of it has to do with the way that show touches on real issues.
Quote from: Spike;970154A very serious argument could be made that nothing should be written 'for the kids', at least not in the current fashion. It is acceptable to allow for fiction that is written for younger audiences (such as by having younger protagonists), but this idea of cutesy light and airy, patently insulting to adult audiences style 'kiddy fare' is more than a little patronizing to children and is annoying for adults to sit through (such as parents).
No one made that argument. Most of the literary classics for kids have dark elements (Treasure Island, Dahl) and the same is true for kids films. I disagee that the modern PIxar and Disney films are all light and airy, the best handle darker elements and appeal to both kids and adults very well.
Oh I see you mean in the inferior sequels. Perhaps, do you have examples?
Quote from: Dumarest;969719The best Star Wars stuff being produced now is the Lego comedy series.
Agreed.
And I enjoyed the Lego Batman movie at least x100 more than the Batsad vs. Superlame movie.
Quote from: Spinachcat;970619Agreed.
And I enjoyed the Lego Batman movie at least x100 more than the Batsad vs. Superlame movie.
There are several Lego Batman, Justice League, etc. movies and they are all packed with humor and adventure. The Lego Jurassic World cartoon is pretty funny, too. My kids can't get enough.
It's too bad Warner Bros. doesn't hire whoever writes the Lego material instead of whoever they are using for their terrible live-action movies.
Quote from: Voros;970549No one made that argument. Most of the literary classics for kids have dark elements (Treasure Island, Dahl) and the same is true for kids films. I disagee that the modern PIxar and Disney films are all light and airy, the best handle darker elements and appeal to both kids and adults very well.
????
Um.
Me.
Me, dude.
I was making it.
EDIT to add::: Also, Treasure Island and the works of Dahl are hardly 'Modern' works, especially as literary classics, as you called them. You're supporting part of my thesis there, that traditional 'kiddie fare' was pretty damn mature and adult. Seriously. Even then modern takes on those classics tend to be dumbed down and stripped of much of their maturity, see also the Burton/Depp version of Willy Wonka vs the Wilder version.
Technically Dalh is probably Modern, Treasure island would be Enlightenment(but it might also be modern if its much newer than I think, and the 'modern' remakes would be post-modern.
Wilders movie is probably post modern as well. Thoughts aren't as new as we think they are.
Does the Chocolate War or the books of Robin McKinely from the 80s count as modern? I think so. And there are a number of sf and fantasy books written for kids today that have darker material, I use to buy current books for my nieces when they were kids and teens and there was always lots to choose from. And you may have heard of this obscure series called The Hunger Games?
Quote from: Spike;970781See also the Burton/Depp version of Willy Wonka vs the Wilder version.
I'm fairly sure that would be considered cruel and unusual punishment.
I'll point out that the '80s' is an entire generation ago, so while in the epochs of history we may consider anything that recent as 'modern', for the purposes of discussing modern culture its the fucking dark ages. No Millennial, for example, the current crop of adults wandering around, was alive in even the late 80s, by definition, so their childhood entertainments would be things from the late 90s and early aughts, making that the oldest relevant examples childish fiction.
Mind you, the trend was already apparent in the 80s, but the other example cited was Treasure Island, which was published in 1833, or just shy of two centuries ago.
That's not how literature works though. My nephews and nieces grew up reading The Witches, James and the Giant Peach, Alice in Wonderland, Where the Wild Things Are, Treasure Island and The Owl Service. Children's literature in particular is based on classics like those. And as I said I also did buy them more modern sf and fantasy books with lots of darker elements. One was a particularly good one about genetic engineering but the name escapes me, another is Feed.