Quote from: Ned the Lonely Donkey;227439However, they did not have the scope, ambition or sense of unity that Watchmen has.

I guess it's a relative thing. Watchmen certainly has ambition, I'll give it that.

Quote from: pathar;227629I love this argument.  "You disagree with me, so clearly you lack an understanding of the object of our discussion."

So if you really like pistachio ice cream, and I don't - is that because I just 'don't get' pistachio?

Also, you might not be eating the pistachio ice cream in the right way in order to properly enjoy its nuanced flavours.  This is certainly one of the factors in poor simple Jackalope's inability to properly appreciate From Hell.

Seriously, though, I just really got sucked into From Hell. I'm not particularly into Jack the Ripper or any of that old mystic england stuff, and I'm not a big fan of that sketchy, dark pencily drawing style.  But I just got absorbed in the story and when the big scene happened (which I'm being deliberately vague about for spoiler reasons) it really blew my mind.  I was like "wait a minute, this is friggin' science fiction that I'm reading!"  For me, it was a very profound and intense revelation of the horror that the 20th century and modernity was going to bring. I was quite shocked when it went to that place.  I can't imagine they did that in the movie.

Quote from: pathar;227629I love this argument.  "You disagree with me, so clearly you lack an understanding of the object of our discussion."

So if you really like pistachio ice cream, and I don't - is that because I just 'don't get' pistachio?

Yes, because ice cream and the written word are directly comparable in terms of experience.

So by this argument, it's literally impossible for anyone to misunderstand any kind of creative work?

Quote from: ticopelp;227729Yes, because ice cream and the written word are directly comparable in terms of experience.

No, see, it's an analogy.  The two items don't have to be directly comparable, just linkable, ideally in a poetic fashion.  Like when Heinlein said "There's nothing wrong with writing, as long as you do it alone in your room with the door closed, and wash your hands when you're done."  And you know, the man was a visionary - I suspect he had forums like this in mind.

Or maybe Douglas Coupland.  But anyway.

Quote from: ticopelp;227729So by this argument, it's literally impossible for anyone to misunderstand any kind of creative work?

Look.  The interpretation of art is subjective.  We can argue about the definition of 'art' until we all die of old age - in fact people have been doing that for centuries - but I think we can all agree that on some level 'pictures' and 'fiction' fall into that general category, at least for the purposes of how they are appreciated by their respective fans.

And what it means, that art is subjective, is that you and I can read the same comic book and get two totally different things out of it.  Maybe you like it for the pretty pictures, and I like it for the bold writing.  Maybe you like the scathing social commentary on modern society, and I get the pages all sticky while appreciating the female characters.  Or maybe, just maybe, you like it, and I don't.

Neither of us is incorrect.  Neither of us is misunderstanding the material.  We're just interpreting it differently.  Telling someone who doesn't agree with you that their understanding is flawed is just an excuse to avoid actually discussing their opinion, and I reserve the right to make fun of it when I see it.

Quote from: Jackalope;226481I think Alan Moore only avoids being the most overhyped writer in comics thanks to the existence of Frank Miller.

Not to mention the droves of writers and artists who have actual talent, which is something Miller and Moore seem to have in short spurts, in my humble opinion.

For everything they write, they also write five or so I could care less about. In this way they remind of Warren Ellis and Garth Ennis.

QuoteI liked Watchmen quite a bit when I read it -- I was 16, about the perfect age to appreciate it's genius without being conscious of it's flaws -- but I've come to really hate what it did to the comics industry.

I don't hate what it did to the industry, but I was 12 at the time, and a lot of what happened I did like. But I was pretty happy to see the Silver Age come to an end.

QuoteI totally blame the existence of Grant Morrison and Garth Ennis on the success of Alan Moore.

I can see this, but I think there's more to it than just that. I swear we'll consume anything fed to us these days.

QuoteThose writers just seem to have a fundamental lack of respect for the medium.

I like some of what they do because of this, but often it's the same repetitive message they're selling, which is why I don't listen to jackasses like Howard Stern. I get it, you're different Howie. Now can we hear something new? Ennis and Ellis are the same thing, over and over and over again to me. (I'm sure other people probably really like everything they do, so they're welcome to spend their money on it!)

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;226551Yes, I read it in graphic novel form, probably not long after the original comic books wrapped up.

I think this, how and when you read or watch something, makes a huge difference. For instance I would never have watched all of Smallville had I been forced to watch it week to week. Instead I watched six seasons in a row, with no commercials or interruptions-and no having to wait for the cliffhangers.

Reading the Watchmen when you were 12-16, month to month is different than what you and I did, catching it in the Graphic Novel later. I don't mind the Watchmen, and I think it certainly has earned it's place in comic history but I'm not it's mist enthusiastic fan or supporter.

Quote from: RPGPundit;226579Jesus Christ. Look, Watchmen is the ONLY comic book ever written that truly qualifies for the title of "literature".

Spoken like a true troll. If you seriously feel this way I have some recommendations for you. Maybe they'd broaden your horizons a little.

Quote from: jgants;226781But really, I was never one for "serious" comics - I always preferred standard Marvel stuff like Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Avengers, etc.  Maybe they could do a Secret Wars movie (with Micheal Bay as director, natch).  

I think both have their place. I'm happy that books like Fables, Y: The Last Man, 30 Days of Night, DMZ, and many more can get published, but like you I started with the classics-Captain America, The Justice League, The Avengers.  As long as books like Wanted never force books like the Runaways off the shelf I can be happy.

Quote from: One Horse Town;226841I'll hand in my geek cred card at the front desk...

Another one bites the dust! Seriously though there is some good stuff out there these days!

Quote from: pathar;227629I love this argument.  "You disagree with me, so clearly you lack an understanding of the object of our discussion."

Welcome to 80% of the arguments on this site. "Our site is so unlike any other site! Seriously!" I wish they'd just sell this place on its merits-"Hey we have some cool people doing cool things."

Quote from: Serious Paul;228110I think this, how and when you read or watch something, makes a huge difference. For instance I would never have watched all of Smallville had I been forced to watch it week to week. Instead I watched six seasons in a row, with no commercials or interruptions-and no having to wait for the cliffhangers.

Reading the Watchmen when you were 12-16, month to month is different than what you and I did, catching it in the Graphic Novel later. I don't mind the Watchmen, and I think it certainly has earned it's place in comic history but I'm not it's mist enthusiastic fan or supporter.

This is a very astute comment--although I wonder if I would watch Smallville if it wasn't fed to me in weekly installments. Topic for another thread, though.

But absolutely, the experience of serial fiction is something that's all too easily overlooked. If I had read Watchmen expecting it to be sorta kinda a regular comic book, and then spent weeks between issues wondering what would happen next and talking about it, it might have been a lot different.

Not to mention I was in my early 20's when I read it, and not that into mainstream comics. (E.g., speak to me of John Byrne's Superman or Claremont's X-Men, and pretty much all I know is what I just told you.) This isn't what you might think, i.e., me saying that superhero stuff is crap and Watchmen is only good if you're used to crap. Rather, current superhero stuff might have given me a context to better appreciate what Watchmen was responding to.