Quote from: Kyle Aaron;260587Because otherwise we must admit that in the end the whole thing is just fucking lame and stupid.

Compared to what?  Citizen Kane?  Logan's Run?

Quote from: Jackalope;260606It's because Irvin Kershner is a much better director than George Lucas.

Well, yeah....

Here's an interesting interview with the director:

http://www.salon.com/ent/col/srag/1999/05/13/kershner/

Edit: Actually I don't think Kershner is a much better director than Lucas. I think Lucas's passion for the work showed in films like THX , American Graffitti and yes even Star Wars. From what I have read, the process of making those movies were not exactly what Lucas had imagined they would be. The rest of the "kids" of that era, Coppola, Speilberg etc seemed more in tune with the movie making process than Lucas ever was. I suppose it's also a people thing. Lucas apparently never knew how to deal with actors. Later on I suppose he concentrated more on the business aspect of Show Business which is evident in his later movies. I think he was very aware that maybe the subject matter of Empire was too big for him. That's why he hired Kershner. *shrug* A good business move....

Regards,
David R

I'll propose that the best film is actually the first one. Empire works very well on its own terms, but I think it's important that you have to have seen SW first to have the full context so far.

Star Wars/A New Hope is the only film of the lot that actually stands up as a fun frolic of a film in its own right; presumably because Lucas didn't know if he was ever going to make a sequel.

Well I think you're right droog. But don't stand too close to me in a group talking about the original SW trilogy. I'm of the lynch worthy opinion that the series should have ended with Empire. Apparently for most, closure is important.....

Regards,
David R

When Lucas dies I'll be interested to see what treatment the property gets. There's no way they can resist making money off of it, and as long as Nerds like me will pay, guess what? Bombs away!

I think I've said this here, before, but I think we'll see remakes not long after he dies, maybe before.

Quote from: Koltar;260591...and we can't do that.

Because at the heart of it they were meant to be watched and enjoyed as fun entertainment ....not term papers on philosophy.

Quite so. I love Star Wars dearly, and have for going on thirty years, but it doesn't hold up to the kind of scrutiny that regularly gets leveled at it.

I think Kirshner is overrated and a convenient excuse people use to bash on and give credit to anyone else besides Lucas. If you look at Kirshner's other body of work, it's anything but impressive.

Quote from: David RApparently for most, closure is important.....

Closure? RotJ was more like seizure.

Quote from: ticopelpI love Star Wars dearly, and have for going on thirty years, but it doesn't hold up to the kind of scrutiny that regularly gets leveled at it.

It's at least partly Lucas's fault for making such grandiose claims for it when it was really just a cut-up of old pulp and war flicks. Hero's Journey my hairy anus!

Quote from: droog;260648Closure? RotJ was more like seizure.

There was a parody once on the Modern Humorist website (back when the site actually put out material) where they described the process for making the movies.  For the third one, they had the Lucas-character getting a case of writer's block then in a moment of drunkenness yell out "Get me a copy of the first movie's script and a fucking sharpie!" (or something like that).

I felt that summed up my feelings about RotJ pretty closely.

Quote from: droog;260648It's at least partly Lucas's fault for making such grandiose claims for it when it was really just a cut-up of old pulp and war flicks. Hero's Journey my hairy anus!

Here, here.  Lucas is the one constantly re-inventing history and making bullshit claims about underlying meanings and how he planned things all along.  The only real plan in the beginning was he wanted to make a movie that crossed Buck Rogers type pulp movies with Japanese samurai type movies (he didn't even think to steal from war movies until much later in the process, lol).

And that's pretty much all he did.  There's no deep meaning.  No philosophy or strong narrative structure behind it all.  He made up shit as he went along, taking bits and peices of material from other people's movies to make something original.  That still takes a lot of imagination and is commendable, but its not like there's anything deep there.

Quote from: droog;260648It's at least partly Lucas's fault for making such grandiose claims for it when it was really just a cut-up of old pulp and war flicks. Hero's Journey my hairy anus!

Actually, the first person to really make grandiose claims about it was Joseph Campbell, in the multi-part documentary The Heroes Journey, in which Campbell is interviewed by Bill Moyers.  Campbell claimed that the movie was a near perfect expression of the monomyth.  Moyers then interviews Lucas, who tries to be humble about it.  Campbell is the one who really put the movie up on a pedestal.  Lucas later lost his humility, and began bragging about it, but that's within his rights.

And seriously, you want to argue with the guy who came up with the idea of the Hero's Journey as the core of the monomyth that Star Wars isn't one of the perfect examples of it, after he's already cited it?  That's pretty much no-win argument.

Unless, of course, you think the idea of the Monomyth is shit.

Quote from: Aos;260699Unless, of course, you think the idea of the Monomyth is shit.

Does anyone outside Hollywood take Joseph Campbell seriously anymore?

My understanding was that he's considered pretty much completey irrelvant to both anthropology and psychology.

Quote from: Aos;260699Unless, of course, you think the idea of the Monomyth is shit.

Cynicism is hardly an argument.

Quote from: Vulgarian;260785Does anyone outside Hollywood take Joseph Campbell seriously anymore?

Nope.

Hollywood has an excited audience of billions of people. Anthropology and psychology in academia, a rather smaller audience.

So for rpgs, for a fun game session and campaign, I think Campbell's monomyth is more useful than all those anthropological and psychological theories. "Zero to hero, with whinging along the way."