TheRPGSite

First, if you haven't seen it yet, check out the Episode VII trailer.


Now, your first instinct in watching that is to feel the excitement of your inner 8-year old bouncing in anticipation.  Great. But remember: you were probably excited about the Phantom Menace before it actually came out too.

Is it possible that maybe, we might have to admit that at the cinematic level, it's futile to do Star Wars?  Because what I saw above certainly seemed futile.

What we get is Tatooine, AGAIN.  Or some world EXACTLY like it.  Out of a galaxy with billions and billions of inhabited worlds, why is it every single major event in the last 75 years of galactic history in some way involved Tatooine?

We get stormtroopers, and Tie Fighters, and they're shooting at the Millennium Falcon. So that means that either time travel is involved in this story, or, most likely, the Rebellion has been going on for the last 30 years, in spite of the death of the Emperor and fall of the Death Star, TWICE.

We get, in short, absolutely nothing new except for a ridiculous droid made more stupid thanks to CGI (seriously, wasn't the reason we GOT RID of Lucas that his brain had rotted to the point that he thought CGI was more important than having an actual story?), and a stupidly impractical lightsaber. THAT is apparently, from this preview, all that has changed in 30 years.

Now, of course, this is a less than 90 second trailer out of what will be a 90 minute plus movie.   But what they chose to put on the trailer in no way filled me with any confidence whatsoever.  And what we can infer from the trailer, unless it was somehow compiled to be a massive deception, is that instead of actually allowing the timeline to move forward here, we have an "everything is stuck" scenario where the producers decided to bank their money on Nostalgia rather than adding anything new to the corpus.  Its so nostalgic that the rebellion isn't allowed to have ever ended, that the same fucking worlds will be the only ones that matter, and that any actual changes to the environment will only be half-assed attempts to make the already familiar somehow "cooler".

The only thing this trailer is saying to me, once I get past the infantile 8 year old somewhere deep in my psyche is "We've Got Nothing".  No ideas. No risk. Nothing new that's actually worth talking about to anyone other than idiotic nerds who are easily impressed by things other than actual story.

Now I'm not saying they should have reinvented the wheel here, but if what we see is a situation where the war between Empire and Rebellion has been going on for 30+ years since the last movie, then either the entire galaxy had better be fucking post-apocalyptic (and I'm betting it won't be) or the producers have just confessed to us through the medium of trailer that they have completely sacrificed any attempt at coherent world-building, setting, and almost certainly story in order to satisfy what are no doubt both corporate and customer fears of anything that isn't nostalgically the same in every way that matters.

So right now, I'm putting 80-20 odds on the new movies being, from a literary/cinematic perspective, total shit.

And of course, it'll make 100 Trillion dollars because the fucking nerds will still eat it all up. The new movie could be 120 hours of Jar Jar Binks Shitting on Han Solo's Face, and the Fucking Nerds would still pay to see it as long as it featured a very slightly different kind of lightsaber.

My inner 8-year old thinks you are a poopyhead.

:p

I think you are utterly wrong, because Star Trek (and everything else Abrams has done).


Abrams is amazing at making high energy action, and cool, stirring dialog, conflict, and so on.

The #1 problem with the Prequels is that they are boring. TERRIBLY boring.
A bunch of people stand around, talking listlessly about stuff. The camera looks at person A, who intones something, then person B, who intones something else. Back. And forth. And back. And forth.

One of the critical moments, when Windu discovers Palpatine's deceit... he raises his eyebrows a bit, then he and Obi-wan... walk off.


Star Trek, on the other hand, EVERY dialog is full of energy. Kirk sneaking onto the Enterprise, everything is kinetic, frantic, exciting.


The plot (like Into Darkness) might be really really fucking stupid, but at least it'll be exciting to WATCH.


I'll take that.

Sometimes Pundit goes to the grocery store just to piss in the Cheerios.

I'll wait till we get a proper trailer before i bother watching anything linked to the new film, learned long ago to never trust teaser trailers when its folks like abrams making the film.

There is nothing in the trailer one way or another to indicate anything about the film's content or quality. Certainly nothing to sperg 1000 words over.

X-wings!

I honestly think part of the trouble with the prequel trilogy was that everything was so weird. The vehicle designs really stunk. Instead of saying "wow, that's cool", it's more like "meh"

Which actually could be said for that new speeder bike in the trailer. But hopefully it will have enough classic designs.

And the cross guard light saber thing is genius.

I am more interested in the video games and the toys that will be spawned from the movies. Star Wars Battlefront for Xbox was so much fun (we still play) so I can't complain about the prequels too much. Plus, Battlefront lets you shoot Gungans.

Also, I recently rewatched the prequels on DVD with remote in hand and just bounced to the action sequences....and they were really enjoyable.

Considering how Abrams' Star Trek movies were 0% plot, 10% witty banter and 90% action sequences, I expect the games coming out of the new movies to be awesome.

Quote from: Spinachcat;801400.

Also, I recently rewatched the prequels on DVD with remote in hand and just bounced to the action sequences....and they were really enjoyable.
.

This is how I watch LoTR, anytime Sam, Frodo, Smeagol or Elrond show up, I just skip to the next scene. Fellowship is mostly fine, but requires the special FF for ranger/elf love.

The Galactic Civil War doesn't have to be raging for 30+ years for there to still be an Empire.  What is likely is a prolonged cold war between the Empire and the New Republic that flares up with border disputes and various secessionist movements as systems waffle on which side they want to be on.

And Tattooine is important to the Skywalker family as well as Han Solo's background so as long as you are going to have Luke and Han, Tattooine is probably going to show up here and there.  The desert is a great place for a monastery, so I wouldn't be surprised if Luke set up a school there.  Maybe even in Jabba's old palace.

Quote from: RPGPundit;801321What we get is Tatooine, AGAIN.  Or some world EXACTLY like it.  Out of a galaxy with billions and billions of inhabited worlds, why is it every single major event in the last 75 years of galactic history in some way involved Tatooine?

The same location being fairly important to a whole series of wars?  That does indeed seem unlikely.  Ask Rincewind, he may know something about this phenomenon.

I wasn't particularly blown away by the trailer, but I don't feel the need to pick it apart, either.  

Maybe Lucas should've hired Pundit as a consultant on the movie; at least then the Jedi would be 'proper chaos magicians', but the lead character always bitching about Gamorreans would probably grate after a while.

I think at this point, after the second trilogy, people are just hoping it is Okay or better. I was pretty excited by the trailer, but with Abrahms my guess is they will be catering to a younger audience so I expect more CGI and stuff like that. Hopefully it is good. Will give it a fair shake. I think the big difference for this one is the actors involved. Getting the original cast might reignite some of that old chemistry. But I am basically expecting this to be a good ride set in the Star Wars universe. The chances of a new film having the impact and resonance of the first trilogy is extraordinarily unlikely. It is almost the sort of the thing that only seems to happen when you are not striving for it. People making Star Wars now are so conscious of what they are building on, I doubt they can take the chances needed to replicate the first films.

Quote from: VectorSigma;801403The same location being fairly important to a whole series of wars?  That does indeed seem unlikely.  Ask Rincewind, he may know something about this phenomenon.

I wasn't particularly blown away by the trailer, but I don't feel the need to pick it apart, either.  

Maybe Lucas should've hired Pundit as a consultant on the movie; at least then the Jedi would be 'proper chaos magicians', but the lead character always bitching about Gamorreans would probably grate after a while.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-H9zJWpmBPeo/T1PDZ3LhtrI/AAAAAAAAAVY/bfGxOBtT2WY/s1600/a-jon-stewart-pic.jpg)

'more CGI'

I guess you hadn't heard... Abrams has worked to go back to mostly practical effects, actually, which makes a lot of people happy.

Quote from: VectorSigma;801403The same location being fairly important to a whole series of wars?  That does indeed seem unlikely.  Ask Rincewind, he may know something about this phenomenon.

Not the same thing at all.  Tattoinne is not "important" because of a whole series of tactical, strategic, or geographical values, it was neither the seat of an empire nor a place with vital resources, not a place that was vitally 'in the way'.
At this point, it would be as though all the major events and characters of World War I, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Gulf Wars I & II had somehow been involved with the town of Medicine Hat, Canada.

QuoteMaybe Lucas should've hired Pundit as a consultant on the movie; at least then the Jedi would be 'proper chaos magicians',

Since neither I nor the Jedi would fall under the category of 'chaos magicians', you must be some variety of fucking idiot.  But hey, when you're scared he's right, Attacking the Man is always the way to go, isn't it?

Admit it: you can see. Bullshit Utterly Bland Nostalgia-For-Its-Own-Sake is our destiny.

Well, gee whiz, Darth was born there.

And "every" event? Didn't like Palpatine literally throw the senate at the little green guy (jeesuz I'm bad at names) on a planet that was NOT Tattooine (and I remember that name...). I'm pretty sure that would count a historically significant event in the Star Wars universe.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have much in the way of hope for the new movie, except, of course, Abrams' ridiculously good track record, but easy on the hyperbole.

Edit: YODA! Finally. Geez.

Quote from: RPGPundit;801678Not the same thing at all.  Tattoinne is not "important" because of a whole series of tactical, strategic, or geographical values, it was neither the seat of an empire nor a place with vital resources, not a place that was vitally 'in the way'.
At this point, it would be as though all the major events and characters of World War I, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Gulf Wars I & II had somehow been involved with the town of Medicine Hat, Canada.



Since neither I nor the Jedi would fall under the category of 'chaos magicians', you must be some variety of fucking idiot.  But hey, when you're scared he's right, Attacking the Man is always the way to go, isn't it?

Admit it: you can see. Bullshit Utterly Bland Nostalgia-For-Its-Own-Sake is our destiny.

Wait, why are you The Man in this scenario again?  Because it's your forum?  Or is it short for 'The Man Who Takes Silly Shit* Way Too Seriously And Can't See Humor In Anything"?

But thanks for calling me a fucking idiot, you impotent joke!  (Are we bonding now?  Is this how this works?  YAY GROWNUPS)

( * = in this case, Star Wars.  I would never deign to impugn the counterporcine crusade as 'silly'.)

Quote from: VectorSigma;801403The same location being fairly important to a whole series of wars?  That does indeed seem unlikely.  Ask Rincewind, he may know something about this phenomenon.

I wasn't particularly blown away by the trailer, but I don't feel the need to pick it apart, either.  

Maybe Lucas should've hired Pundit as a consultant on the movie; at least then the Jedi would be 'proper chaos magicians', but the lead character always bitching about Gamorreans would probably grate after a while.

To be fair, I gripped and groaned "Tattooine again, really?" as well. But I know it's a nerd's gripe within me, that horrible RPG nerds gripe about realism and cohesion of the world - from storytelling perspective, of course I understand it (and on the other hand, I am looking forward to seeing Yavin IV again, since that's the jungle planet from the trailer, based on architecture).

And myself, I deep down know it doesn't matter even if the trailers will point to this being the worst steaming pile of Bantha droppings the world has ever seen. In a year's time, I'll be meeting up with my father in front of a cinema, once again ready to journey to a galaxy far, far away...

And what if the film sucks? Well, then at least I hope I didn't have to break into Abrams' mansion for my dying friend to see it until cancer takes him.

Fuck me. A year of this?

Quote from: Will;801342The plot (like Into Darkness) might be really really fucking stupid, but at least it'll be exciting to WATCH.

I'll take that.

Same here. No matter what, this new Star Wars will be exciting and pretty to look at. At the very worst it will be a fun, one-time viewing. I'm not a kid anymore, I don't NEED Star Wars, it isn't my life anymore etc...

EDIT: when I saw the opening shot, I didn't think "Tatooine", I thought of the opening shot of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly (open, wide and desolate landscape and then suddenly CLOSE UP! DANGER!). Part of me hopes that Abrahms is tapping the Western in Space vibe of A New Hope.

It helps that, when I watch the original trilogy nowadays, I realize how stupid a lot of it is. But it's exciting and evocative.

Particularly Return of the Jedi. That was a deeply, deeply, DEEPLY fucking stupid movie. Fucking Ewoks. And the dialog...


Which reminds me, when I watch the original trilogy again, other than the nostalgia element (I remember waiting in line, as a wee Will, my dad holding my hand, in a line that started outside the theater. We waited a long time to see that movie), what I keep noticing is that, more than anything else, the soundtrack and the sound FX stand up to anything made since; blaster sounds, ships screaming past, all of it.

I defy anyone to listen to the Imperial March without starting to move a bit to the beat.

George Lucas version of trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v93Jh6JNBng

I don't mind the Ewoks.  Especially when you realize that they ate the storm troopers.  Brings a whole new level of complexity to that movie besides "let's introduce something cute!"

Quote from: Will;801885Particularly Return of the Jedi. That was a deeply, deeply, DEEPLY fucking stupid movie. Fucking Ewoks. And the dialog...

t.

I never understood this. Not picking on you, I just don't understand all the hate for Jedi. When Jedi came out I was pretty young and thought it was incredible. Still love watching it. All the movies were pretty silly at times. I don't think Ewoks are any more silly than Jawas for instance. Maybe I am just partial because it is the first Star Wars I remember seeing in theater (I have it on good authority I was present at a viewing of Empire Strikes Back but I was like four at the time and don't remember a thing).

I don't know, the tone of much of the movie just ... seemed off, compared to the other two movies.

I enjoyed the world building elements, though.

I also found the general dialog, of the Emperor and Vader, seemed really clunky.

I mean, I enjoyed the bits of the movie that weren't on Endor or didn't have the Emperor or Vader in it. And I DID like Vader turning on the Emperor at the end (though not the edited in NOOO stupidity)

I also admire the craft that went into all the movies, the practical effects, and the fact that the third movie kicked off Warwick Davis' career.

Edit: Holy crap! Warwick Davis is going to be in the new Star Wars movie, awesome.

Quote from: Will;802591I don't know, the tone of much of the movie just ... seemed off, compared to the other two movies.

In Real Life, George Lucas was going thru the end of his first marriage. So as he (roughly) put it "RotJ was super upbeat as everyone was trying to cheer me up, and Indiana Jones and tToD was super-dark, because I wrote it during that time too..."

Huh, that's interesting.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;802586I never understood this. Not picking on you, I just don't understand all the hate for Jedi. When Jedi came out I was pretty young and thought it was incredible. Still love watching it. All the movies were pretty silly at times. I don't think Ewoks are any more silly than Jawas for instance. Maybe I am just partial because it is the first Star Wars I remember seeing in theater (I have it on good authority I was present at a viewing of Empire Strikes Back but I was like four at the time and don't remember a thing).

It's hard for me to hate a movie, but what bugged me the most about Jedi was how incredibly weak stormtrooper armor was. I could buy that the armor couldn't stop laser blasts (I mean, if I built a sidearm, I'd sure as heck want it to pierce the most common armor...) but even sticks caused those guys to fall down.

I grant, Imperial military tactics are colossally stupid in general, but at least the Empire's tactics are consistently the stupidest possible...but it really seems like teddy bears with sticks should have *that* easy a time ripping through armor and stuff.

And I never caught that Ewoks ate the stormtroopers...but I buy it in retrospect.

Quote from: Novastar;802643In Real Life, George Lucas was going thru the end of his first marriage. So as he (roughly) put it "RotJ was super upbeat as everyone was trying to cheer me up, and Indiana Jones and tToD was super-dark, because I wrote it during that time too..."

There are those who say the first two movies were good BECAUSE his wife was the film editor.

She was also the one who helped edit ideas or steer him in the right direction when he was at home at night and working on them...


- Ed C.

And I'm laughing even more at RPGPundit and the original post of this thread.
So, yeah, all those stupid CGI tricks... most of them aren't CGI tricks.


EVEN THE ROLLER BALL DROID:
http://www.polygon.com/2014/12/12/7385691/star-wars-droid-force-awakens

Will, while there might be a practical effect BB-8, I'm pretty damn sure the one rolling at 30+ mph, perfectly in frame, is CGI.

I don't think digital greenscreening/compositing is what most people consider CGI, though.

Quote from: Will;804543I don't think digital greenscreening/compositing is what most people consider CGI, though.

I've heard people bitch about digital matte paintings as evidence of too much "cgi" in modern film.

Quote from: Koltar;803634There are those who say the first two movies were good BECAUSE his wife was the film editor.

She was also the one who helped edit ideas or steer him in the right direction when he was at home at night and working on them...


- Ed C.

Those who say that are wrong. Most of the editing was done by Paul Hirsch and Richard Chew. Marcia Lucas was still working on Taxi Driver until very late in the editing process. The "Making of" books by Rinzler debunk trainloads of horseshit stories told by disgruntled fanboys.

Quote from: Necrozius;804582I've heard people bitch about digital matte paintings as evidence of too much "cgi" in modern film.

CGI is the best thing to happen to movies since stereo sound. If you really think the special effects done in old movies are overall better than the ones in modern movies, you are not a cinema purist -you're just being a dick.

CGI is wonderful. The recent domination by CGI models over practical FX isn't.

Ideally, you use whatever effects are best for what you're trying to pull off, and have the discretion and experience to know what that is.

Quote from: Doom;803627And I never caught that Ewoks ate the stormtroopers...but I buy it in retrospect.

FWIW, I never noticed either, until someone pointed out two things.

1. They were ready to eat Luke and co, so eating humans wasn't a big deal to them

2. There were helmets of storm troopers laying around.  At the end, they were using them as drums.


So it seems highly plausible that they had eaten storm troopers at some point.  Makes them a lot less cute and a lot more terrifying.  Can you imagine joining forces with a group of cannibals?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;804627FWIW, I never noticed either, until someone pointed out two things.

1. They were ready to eat Luke and co, so eating humans wasn't a big deal to them

2. There were helmets of storm troopers laying around.  At the end, they were using them as drums.


So it seems highly plausible that they had eaten storm troopers at some point.  Makes them a lot less cute and a lot more terrifying.  Can you imagine joining forces with a group of cannibals?

Strictly speaking, wouldn't they only be cannibals if they ate members of their own species?

Quote from: 3rik;804631Strictly speaking, wouldn't they only be cannibals if they ate members of their own species?

Sorry for the ambiguity.  I meant, "Can YOU imagine joining forces with cannibals."  Meaning, we don't have Ewoks in real life, so it would be like creating an alliance with people who look at you like food.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;804633Sorry for the ambiguity.  I meant, "Can YOU imagine joining forces with cannibals."  Meaning, we don't have Ewoks in real life, so it would be like creating an alliance with people who look at you like food.

The best thing in that case would probably be to try and talk them out of their obnoxious habit, in exchange for an alliance. And who knows, maybe that's what the Rebel Alliance did after RotJ.

Quote from: 3rik;804635The best thing in that case would probably be to try and talk them out of their obnoxious habit, in exchange for an alliance. And who knows, maybe that's what the Rebel Alliance did after RotJ.

(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110206203149/starwars/images/d/d0/Endor_Holocaust.jpg)

The Endor Holocaust (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html) happened after RotJ and those filthy little furballs died in it when their ecosystem was destroyed by Death Star debris falling on them.

Dunno if it's Tatooine or not, but if it is, who's to say it's in the present? That could have been the intro sequence, then we get "30 years later". If it is the present, Tatooine being on the ass end of space would make it perfect for a hidden Imperial Base or the Emperor's Clone Tank or whatever.

Not sure why things would change that much in 30 years.  We know from IV that the Emperor gave control to the Governors, it's possible there are whole sectors of space still under Imperial control that haven't lost a single stormtrooper.  Killing the Emperor didn't defeat the Empire, it made defeating the Empire possible.

Also, they just made one big power vacuum, who's to say all the planets want to join the New Republic? If the Coruscant version of the Koch Brothers take over the planet through economics and propaganda what's the Republic gonna do, assassinate them?  Hell Coruscant might descend into total chaos for a.decade.

The first new Star Trek movie proved all bets are off if Abrams is given his head.  The second one proved he can be really lousy at worldbuilding (Klingon and Federation homeworlds 20 mins away, WTF).

To be honest, I think the pre-Disney rabid fans are gonna hate the new movie because the "Abrams Republic" will probably take a massive shit on the prequels and pretend none of the books, comics, etc. ever existed.

Quote from: VectorSigma;801760Wait, why are you The Man in this scenario again?  Because it's your forum?  Or is it short for 'The Man Who Takes Silly Shit* Way Too Seriously And Can't See Humor In Anything"?

Apparently you don't actually know what 'ad hominem' means?

Quote from: CRKrueger;805286To be honest, I think the pre-Disney rabid fans are gonna hate the new movie because the "Abrams Republic" will probably take a massive shit on the prequels and pretend none of the books, comics, etc. ever existed.

Which is at this point the only GOOD thing I see coming out of all this. Erasing the horrible horrible "canon" is a blessing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;805308Which is at this point the only GOOD thing I see coming out of all this. Erasing the horrible horrible "canon" is a blessing.

Assuming that overthrowing the status quo will result in a better future, how utterly unconservative of you. :p

Quote from: Bren;805310Assuming that overthrowing the status quo will result in a better future, how utterly unconservative of you. :p

You have obviously never cleaned out a horse stable.  I garauntee that ten minutes after you're done, the horse will piss all over that new sawdust.

Doesn't mean its a good idea to leave all that old piss and shit ridden sawdust in the stable.

They've just hired on 3 of the actors (http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/396357-star-wars-the-force-awakens-enlists-stars-of-the-raid) from The Raid 2 - my interest has gone from non-existent to piqued.

Quote from: Kiero;808061They've just hired on 3 of the actors (http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/396357-star-wars-the-force-awakens-enlists-stars-of-the-raid) from The Raid 2 - my interest has gone from non-existent to piqued.

If anyone is wondering why this is a big deal (and I think it is, provided they use these guys), have a look at the final fight scene of The Raid 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0dtVGwRVeY) (starts around 5:30). Compare and contrast that to the shitty, boring 12-minute-long lightsaber fight at the end of Revenge of the Sith. I mean seriously, it takes a serious work of artistry to make a lightsaber duel boring, but they managed it. Also note the absence of "stupid CGI tricks" in that kitchen fight scene.

Quote from: Kiero;810276the final fight scene of The Raid 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCD7eFJon6U) (starts around 5:30).

That's... not what you've linked. :D

Quote from: The Butcher;810283That's... not what you've linked. :D

D'oh! Guess what I'm listening to...anyway, it's now fixed.

Quote from: Will;801342I think you are utterly wrong, because Star Trek (and everything else Abrams has done).


Abrams is amazing at making high energy action, and cool, stirring dialog, conflict, and so on.

Only if you have very low standards.

Quote from: Kashirigi;811000Only if you have very low standards.

The bar is the Star Wars prequels.

Quote from: Will;811042The bar is the Star Wars prequels.

Wooden acting, stilted dialog, ham-fisted comedy. So a low bar. Star Trek the reboot exceeded that. Into Darkness...not so much.

I can't agree there. The characters were likeable, engaging, MOVING. Every shot was active, dynamic. You could tell what people were thinking and doing. Maybe too much.

It was really really REALLY fucking stupid, plot-wise. Both Star Treks. God. So stupid.

(You need Khan's blood? Um, why? You have a hold full of the same kind of blood.)

Quote from: Bren;811069Wooden acting, stilted dialog, ham-fisted comedy. So a low bar.

Sounds much like A New Hope.

Quote from: Kiero;811218Sounds much like A New Hope.

If somebody gets the wood, I'll time him up and light the torch. :p

Quote from: Bren;811324If somebody gets the wood, I'll time him up and light the torch. :p

:hand: First I must be convinced that he weighs the same as a duck.

Quote from: Bren;811324If somebody gets the wood, I'll time him up and light the torch. :p

It's poorly-directed, vapid, with too-quick changes of tone. It's a decidedly average movie, I watched it recently and was surprised at how underwhelming it is, compared to my recollections.

Fortunately, Empire Strikes Back is competently directed and pretty good, and Return of the Jedi is alright.

The original movie is pretty by-the-book Bildungsroman. I think it's good, but not great, when considered by itself. Innovative special fx, an astoundingly good soundtrack and sound fx, and good worldbuilding.

Quote from: Bren;811324If somebody gets the wood, I'll time him up and light the torch. :p

If he watched one of the Special Editions, he's not wrong.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;811883If he watched one of the Special Editions, he's not wrong.

Well there is that. Han sitting in his chair waiting for Greedo to miss him from 3 feet away and then shooting. :banghead:

Quote from: Will;811505The original movie is pretty by-the-book Bildungsroman. I think it's good, but not great, when considered by itself. Innovative special fx, an astoundingly good soundtrack and sound fx, and good worldbuilding.

And unlike all the following films, done on a tight budget.
There is a reason that A NEW HOPE got the most changes when Lucas did his Special Editions.

Watching the original movies over and over, what really strikes me is how evocative and thrilling the music and sound effects are.

If the movie came out now, those would stand up to anything.

New Hope does have pretty off acting. Leia's non-response to shit like torture and her home planet getting erased always seemed a little underdone to me. Also, the memory of people complaining about characters being "whiny" in the prequels makes me smirk every time I hear Mark Hamil moaning on Tatooine.

Don't care. Still love the movie. Like a lot of other stuff I intellectually know isn't anywhere close to art but still makes me happy.

See, I can see Luke being a bit whiney; he's a teenager stuck at home on the farm, while all his friends are going off into space, where a war is brewing. He feels like he's being held back, as life goes hurtling by. His Aunt and Uncle's deaths make him realize how much he had, and how much he's lost. It also frees him to seek his own destiny, but it sobers him up a lot.

And I've heard more people complain about Carrie Fisher's "appearing and disappearing" British accent. :p ;)

Quote from: Will;804625CGI is wonderful. The recent domination by CGI models over practical FX isn't.

Ideally, you use whatever effects are best for what you're trying to pull off, and have the discretion and experience to know what that is.

The "recent domination by CGI models over practical FX" is a myth. The problem is that people assume every effect is CGI. For example, the Prequels used more sets and models and on location shooting than the Original Trilogy by a huge margin. But that doesn't stop know-nothings from squealing "It's all CGI!"

Here's a great thread showing just some of the model and set design: LINK (http://boards.theforce.net/threads/practical-effects-in-the-prequels-sets-pictures-models-etc.50017310/)

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;812239New Hope does have pretty off acting. Leia's non-response to shit like torture and her home planet getting erased always seemed a little underdone to me. Also, the memory of people complaining about characters being "whiny" in the prequels makes me smirk every time I hear Mark Hamil moaning on Tatooine.

Don't care. Still love the movie. Like a lot of other stuff I intellectually know isn't anywhere close to art but still makes me happy.

It's not that she doesn't respond to the torture and mass murder, it's that Lucas switches to another scene without showing her reaction. Ditto for Luke's non-response to his aunt and uncle being killed. This is a good thing, given that Star Wars is a Saturday matinee movie.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;812239New Hope does have pretty off acting. Leia's non-response to shit like torture and her home planet getting erased always seemed a little underdone to me. Also, the memory of people complaining about characters being "whiny" in the prequels makes me smirk every time I hear Mark Hamil moaning on Tatooine..

When I first watched episode II, with Hayden's incessant whining, I leaned over to my buddy and said, "Now I know where Luke got it from.  It's hereditary."

:D

Quote from: Elfdart;814071It's not that she doesn't respond to the torture and mass murder, it's that Lucas switches to another scene without showing her reaction. Ditto for Luke's non-response to his aunt and uncle being killed. This is a good thing, given that Star Wars is a Saturday matinee movie.

I'm talking about her minimal reaction right before the planet blows up, and how unfazed she is for the rest of the movie.

Luke's reaction was also pretty minimal, but better.

I can agree with the Saturday matinee vibe being a good thing, but I don't know, my deformed 16-bit Final Fantasy protagonists conveyed their despair more believably in games that had a similar tone.:p

Quote from: Elfdart;814070The "recent domination by CGI models over practical FX" is a myth. The problem is that people assume every effect is CGI. For example, the Prequels used more sets and models and on location shooting than the Original Trilogy by a huge margin. But that doesn't stop know-nothings from squealing "It's all CGI!"

Here's a great thread showing just some of the model and set design: LINK (http://boards.theforce.net/threads/practical-effects-in-the-prequels-sets-pictures-models-etc.50017310/)

Check out:
http://www.cracked.com/video_19182_14-movie-special-effects-you-wont-believe-werent-cgi.html

Quote from: Elfdart;814071It's not that she doesn't respond to the torture and mass murder, it's that Lucas switches to another scene without showing her reaction. Ditto for Luke's non-response to his aunt and uncle being killed. This is a good thing, given that Star Wars is a Saturday matinee movie.

Which is where my charge of "vapid", on A New Hope, comes from. There's no emotional weight to anything because no one reacts, and the scene cuts to something else often of wildly different tone before there's a chance to.

Quote from: Kiero;814500Which is where my charge of "vapid", on A New Hope, comes from. There's no emotional weight to anything because no one reacts, and the scene cuts to something else often of wildly different tone before there's a chance to.

:huhsign: It's space opera. It's not A Streetcar Named Desire.

Quote from: Bren;814516:huhsign: It's space opera. It's not A Streetcar Named Desire.

Empire Strikes Back manages not to be vapid, that's space opera too. Of course that's because it had a competent director at the helm.

Quote from: Kiero;814610Empire Strikes Back manages not to be vapid, that's space opera too. Of course that's because it had a competent director at the helm.

It's just vapid in different ways:

Vader: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.
Luke: He told me enough! He told me YOU killed him.
Vader: No, I am your father.
Luke: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO etc.

Or notice how at the end of the film how quickly they forgive Lando's treachery.

Or that Luke's loss of a hand is quickly turned into a showpiece for Star Wars cyber tech. No phantom limb pain, no difficult recovery or PT, no PTSD from losing a hand to his very own father. Just movin on to the final feel good there's maybe some light at the end of the tunnel feel good shot of Luke and Leia.

But in nerd circles Empire is considered better because the good guys don't win at the end.

I think Mark Hamill was right when he recently told Star Wars fans to stay away from the internet until the movie is released. Not only do you avoid spoilers, but you also avoid people bitching about every little fart or belch in the movies.

Quote from: Endless Flight;814700I think Mark Hamill was right when he recently told Star Wars fans to stay away from the internet until the movie is released. Not only do you avoid spoilers, but you also avoid people bitching about every little fart or belch in the movies.

Sound advice for every fandom, anywhere ever. :P

Quote from: Bren;814649It's just vapid in different ways:

Vader: Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.
Luke: He told me enough! He told me YOU killed him.
Vader: No, I am your father.
Luke: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO etc.

Or notice how at the end of the film how quickly they forgive Lando's treachery.

Or that Luke's loss of a hand is quickly turned into a showpiece for Star Wars cyber tech. No phantom limb pain, no difficult recovery or PT, no PTSD from losing a hand to his very own father. Just movin on to the final feel good there's maybe some light at the end of the tunnel feel good shot of Luke and Leia.

But in nerd circles Empire is considered better because the good guys don't win at the end.

The word "vapid" doesn't mean what some people think it means.

Quote from: Endless Flight;814700I think Mark Hamill was right when he recently told Star Wars fans to stay away from the internet until the movie is released. Not only do you avoid spoilers, but you also avoid people bitching about every little fart or belch in the movies.

Internet web forums are all too often little more than circlejerks, where some notions and opinions are over-represented, and large numbers of people can't distinguish between opinion and fact. On the internet, the Star Wars prequels were catastrophic failures. In the real world, they are among the most successful movies ever made.

Quote from: Elfdart;816822The word "vapid" doesn't mean what some people think it means.

The word "X" doesn't mean what some people think it means.

The statement above is true for most words "X" in the English language.

What's great about Empire is that dodging through an asteroid field manages to be both a great action sequence and mirror the tumultuous feelings Hand and Leia have for each other.  The whole film is like that.

A New Hope?  Some kind of perfect intersection of Flash Gordon, old war movies and cowboy flicks, with bits lifted whole from Kurosawa.  Design is a brilliant mix of shiny futurism, post-oil shock rustbucket Americana and more samurai.  Plot and characterisation barely come into it, although Lucas would say "archetypes" rather than "stereotypes".

Quote from: Elfdart;816822Internet web forums are all too often little more than circlejerks, where some notions and opinions are over-represented, and large numbers of people can't distinguish between opinion and fact. On the internet, the Star Wars prequels were catastrophic failures. In the real world, they are among the most successful movies ever made.

Pshhh, thank goodness we can huddle together in our miserable internet holes with our fellow vultures of the unpleasable intelligentsia instead of *yeck* enjoying light entertainment with those grinning masses who have the audacity not to take laser swords and kids' cartoons seriously. :rolleyes:

I have to say I'm not exactly thrilled at the prospect of Star Wars without George Lucas making the creative decisions, any more than I'd be eager to watch a Terminator movie James Cameron isn't making.

There's a funny interview from 1983 with Dale Pollock, who wrote a biography of George Lucas and was privy to outlines of future films (prequels and sequels). Pollock asked Lucas at the time how he could ever consider selling off the franchise and the response was interesting (4:43) :

LINK (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X02o7fjdXyQ)

"It would make my work look better."

Quote from: Elfdart;820928I have to say I'm not exactly thrilled at the prospect of Star Wars without George Lucas making the creative decisions, any more than I'd be eager to watch a Terminator movie James Cameron isn't making.

Yeah, 'cuz the prequels trilogy was Full Of Win. :rolleyes:

Quote from: The Butcher;825491Yeah, 'cuz the prequels trilogy was Full Of Win. :rolleyes:

Not to mention that personally, my favourite Star Wars film was not directed by Lucas.

Quote from: The Butcher;825491Yeah, 'cuz the prequels trilogy was Full Of Win. :rolleyes:

They were among the most successful movies ever made. In the history of motion pictures, only sixteen movies have done better with audiences (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm). It doesn't get much more "Full of Win" than that.

Quote from: Rincewind1;825504Not to mention that personally, my favourite Star Wars film was not directed by Lucas.

It was still made by him.

Quote from: Elfdart;825900They were among the most successful movies ever made. In the history of motion pictures, only sixteen movies have done better with audiences (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm). It doesn't get much more "Full of Win" than that.

Because of course, no one buys crap, ever.

Quote from: The Butcher;825906Because of course, no one buys crap, ever.

The battle cry of the PWNED.

Quote from: Elfdart;825908The battle cry of the PWNED.

Keep beating that drum, sweetheart.

Quote from: Elfdart;825900They were among the most successful movies ever made. In the history of motion pictures, only sixteen movies have done better with audiences (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm). It doesn't get much more "Full of Win" than that.

Be that as it may, there is some absolute shit on that list. The Exorcist? Avatar? Titanic? Virtually everything pre-1970 (barring the animation)?

Quote from: Elfdart;825908The battle cry of the PWNED.

So you loved 50 Shades of Grey?

Quote from: Kiero;825942Be that as it may, there is some absolute shit on that list. The Exorcist? Avatar? Titanic? Virtually everything pre-1970 (barring the animation)?

Seriously? You're suggesting that anything pre-1970 (that isn't animated) shares a category with 'absolute shit'? I'm going to assume that's not what you meant, because otherwise you must live in a small, small world.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Panjumanju;825955Seriously? You're suggesting that anything pre-1970 (that isn't animated) shares a category with 'absolute shit'? I'm going to assume that's not what you meant, because otherwise you must live in a small, small world.

//Panjumanju

That's exactly much what I mean; old films have this really bizarre, stilted, unnatural way of delivering dialogue that makes them painful to watch. Not to mention weird lighting and often overblown soundtracks.

Quote from: Kiero;825957That's exactly much what I mean; old films have this really bizarre, stilted, unnatural way of delivering dialogue that makes them painful to watch. Not to mention weird lighting and often overblown soundtracks.

Wow. This is really, really unusual. To say the least.

Quote from: Imperator;825967Wow. This is really, really unusual. To say the least.

Yeah...I agree...that is really bizarre, at least.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: The Butcher;825939Keep beating that drum, sweetheart.

Not to mention that Episode I is 17th because everyone saw it asap based on the earlier trilogy.  Where is Episode II? 87th.  Episode III moved up a bit to 60th because who didn't want to see the Kenobi/Vader battle?

Quote from: Imperator;825967Wow. This is really, really unusual. To say the least.

Quote from: Panjumanju;825971Yeah...I agree...that is really bizarre, at least.

//Panjumanju

Neither, its just sad.

New trailer up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngElkyQ6Rhs).

:cool:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEdv3ccaL0hygWmmA/giphy.gif)

I almost cried when I saw that trailer.

Partially because I realized just how Goddamn old Harrison Ford is.

JG

QUOTE=RPGPundit;801321]The new movie could be 120 hours of Jar Jar Binks Shitting on Han Solo's Face[/QUOTE]

Actually, I'd pay to see that...maybe not 120 hours but I'd watch for a couple minutes at least.

The real problem for me is that there's not a single movie critic out there you can trust.  Nobody waved me off from Phantom Menace.  Nobody waved me off from Godzilla.  Nobody waved me off from the Hobbit.  Or Avatar.  Or Aliens Promethius.  All movies I had every right to expect to be at least good if not great.  All movies I waited for reviews and feedback for because I still didnt trust it.  All movies that anyone with an average brain that watches a lot of movies should be able to recognize as third-rate crap with great special effects.  All the 5 hour long, dead-on youtube movie reviews come out three years too late to be worth anything.  Then there are movies like 13th Warrior that got panned from every critic in the business.  The critics are worthless.

I like to read a post like this one because it gives me somewhere to go to test the waters.  If the Pundit and other self-declared skeptics start saying it was a good movie.  I might see it but my optimism is gone.

There's a lot of whining and complaining and knee-knocking in the film industry these days, claiming that the only way to make money is to stick to very narrow tried and true formulas because nothing's working.  Maybe someone should pull their heads out of their asses and realize that reviewers that are so afraid of losing access to big name interviews are bad for business.  Hell, if I had been warned how lousy the Hobbit was I still probably would have paid to see for sure, and I still would have walked out when Gandalf and the dwarves started bobsledding through the goblin mines on a detached bridge, but at least I wouldn't have felt I was tricked into the theater.

I guess that's why I like this place for game reviews.  If you know the players, you know who to listen to and when.  There are pseudo intellectuals and social justice nuts and flat out liars here but it doesnt take long to figure out who they are.   Much of the time their reviews tell you more than the opinions of sane people.

I'm about as likely to buy a copy of D&D 5th as I am to watch Episode 2 of Star Wars, but if I ever do, at least I won't feel I was tricked.  It's odd how similar the development of Stars and AD&D have been, when you really think about it.  It all started back in 1977 with something so new and inventive, it immediately captivated my imagination.

It was raw.  I mean the art was absolutely terrible.  But there was a core that was so much more intelligent than everything else that was out there.  It was the little details, describing huge ideas and conjuring the imagination with concise phrases and the mention of just a name or a place.  Nothing else was needed.  Your imagination filled in the rest.  It was a big hit for sure, but it didn't feel commercial at all.  It was about a shared experience, something coming into being that had never been there before.  Worlds coming into existence.

Then came number two.  It felt much more commercial but it was opening up new frontiers in the imagination.  There was noticeable bloat but better production value and lots of new characters and new ideas.  The universe was still expanding, still ... it was obvious that the creator was absent.  The creative direction had become the product of a process instead of one individual and the selling of figures and other peripheral products was to some extent driving the creative process. Still, I thought number two was a worthy predecessor to the original.

Then came three.  There were a lot of big changes.  Everyone was older but it felt like it was still improving.  There were a lot of small changes too of course.  For instance, the little midget creatures, the whatever-you-call-ems, didn't look quite the same as the ones in the original but there was something charming about them.  After a few years they reworked the ending (for the worse, I thought) but the change didn't ruin it. All the character felt similar.  It was like reading the same book even if some of the powers were slightly different and some of the rules had changed.  The characters still had the same feel.

Then the bottom fell out.  Four was a disaster.  You'd think with the production value, with all the big name talent they hired, success should have been easy, but it was obvious by then that the audience had been taken for granted and that capitalizing on the name was their goal.  Forgotten was the understanding that had existed in the original--that small kids had big imaginations that responded when challenged with good writing and big ideas instead of being talked to like, well, like small kids.  Sure, it made a lot of money, but it also lost a generation of people who could have been fans.

I gave five a look.  It was pretty much what I expected.  There were a lot of proprietary terms and powers designed to protect the brand instead of being necessary or even making sense.  The magic that 30 years ago was precious and rare has become gaudy and flashy, characters that used to be subdued now flipping and jumping from one place to the other with a flash and a pop, all the while asserting the pretense of old school cred simply by retaining the same name.

But alas, all is lost.  The simple and clean senarios of old are replaced by overwrought and overproduced fodder.

I doubt I'll ever take a look at six.  There is just so much good independent material out there, after all, and it's obvious that a corporate team can't find its way back to what made the original great because they have no idea what it was in the first place, only what they imagined it to be missing.

Quote from: Ghost;826255

Quote from: RPGPundit;801321The new movie could be 120 hours of Jar Jar Binks Shitting on Han Solo's Face

Actually, I'd pay to see that...maybe not 120 hours but I'd watch for a couple minutes at least.

The real problem for me is that there's not a single movie critic out there you can trust.  Nobody waved me off from Phantom Menace.  Nobody waved me off from Godzilla.  Nobody waved me off from the Hobbit.  Or Avatar.  Or Aliens Promethius.  All movies I had every right to expect to be at least good if not great.  All movies I waited for reviews and feedback for because I still didnt trust it.  All movies that anyone with an average brain that watches a lot of movies should be able to recognize as third-rate crap with great special effects.  All the 5 hour long, dead-on youtube movie reviews come out three years too late to be worth anything.  Then there are movies like 13th Warrior that got panned from every critic in the business.  The critics are worthless.

I like to read a post like this one because it gives me somewhere to go to test the waters.  If the Pundit and other self-declared skeptics start saying it was a good movie.  I might see it but my optimism is gone.

There's a lot of whining and complaining and knee-knocking in the film industry these days, claiming that the only way to make money is to stick to very narrow tried and true formulas because nothing's working.  Maybe someone should pull their heads out of their asses and realize that reviewers that are so afraid of losing access to big name interviews are bad for business.  Hell, if I had been warned how lousy the Hobbit was I still probably would have paid to see for sure, and I still would have walked out when Gandalf and the dwarves started bobsledding through the goblin mines on a detached bridge, but at least I wouldn't have felt I was tricked into the theater.

I guess that's why I like this place for game reviews.  If you know the players, you know who to listen to and when.  There are pseudo intellectuals and social justice nuts and flat out liars here but it doesnt take long to figure out who they are.   Much of the time their reviews tell you more than the opinions of sane people.

I'm about as likely to buy a copy of D&D 5th as I am to watch Episode 2 of Star Wars, but if I ever do, at least I won't feel I was tricked.  It's odd how similar the development of Stars and AD&D have been, when you really think about it.  It all started back in 1977 with something so new and inventive, it immediately captivated my imagination.

It was raw.  I mean the art was absolutely terrible.  But there was a core that was so much more intelligent than everything else that was out there.  It was the little details, describing huge ideas and conjuring the imagination with concise phrases and the mention of just a name or a place.  Nothing else was needed.  Your imagination filled in the rest.  It was a big hit for sure, but it didn't feel commercial at all.  It was about a shared experience, something coming into being that had never been there before.  Worlds coming into existence.

Then came number two.  It felt much more commercial but it was opening up new frontiers in the imagination.  There was noticeable bloat but better production value and lots of new characters and new ideas.  The universe was still expanding, still ... it was obvious that the creator was absent.  The creative direction had become the product of a process instead of one individual and the selling of figures and other peripheral products was to some extent driving the creative process. Still, I thought number two was a worthy predecessor to the original.

Then came three.  There were a lot of big changes.  Everyone was older but it felt like it was still improving.  There were a lot of small changes too of course.  For instance, the little midget creatures, the whatever-you-call-ems, didn't look quite the same as the ones in the original but there was something charming about them.  After a few years they reworked the ending (for the worse, I thought) but the change didn't ruin it. All the character felt similar.  It was like reading the same book even if some of the powers were slightly different and some of the rules had changed.  The characters still had the same feel.

Then the bottom fell out.  Four was a disaster.  You'd think with the production value, with all the big name talent they hired, success should have been easy, but it was obvious by then that the audience had been taken for granted and that capitalizing on the name was their goal.  Forgotten was the understanding that had existed in the original--that small kids had big imaginations that responded when challenged with good writing and big ideas instead of being talked to like, well, like small kids.  Sure, it made a lot of money, but it also lost a generation of people who could have been fans.

I gave five a look.  It was pretty much what I expected.  There were a lot of proprietary terms and powers designed to protect the brand instead of being necessary or even making sense.  The magic that 30 years ago was precious and rare has become gaudy and flashy, characters that used to be subdued now flipping and jumping from one place to the other with a flash and a pop, all the while asserting the pretense of old school cred simply by retaining the same name.

But alas, all is lost.  The simple and clean senarios of old are replaced by overwrought and overproduced fodder.

I doubt I'll ever take a look at six.  There is just so much good independent material out there, after all, and it's obvious that a corporate team can't find its way back to what made the original great because they have no idea what it was in the first place, only what they imagined it to be missing.

Ok, but this is seven... :D

Movies, people. Movies.

Quote from: Kiero;825957That's exactly much what I mean; old films have this really bizarre, stilted, unnatural way of delivering dialogue that makes them painful to watch. Not to mention weird lighting and often overblown soundtracks.

You are missing out on some great movies. Dialogue pacing, music and effects all change over time. It is honestly just a matter of getting used to the norms of an era.

Quote from: Ghost;826255It's odd how similar the development of Stars and AD&D have been, when you really think about it.  It all started back in 1977 with something so new and inventive, it immediately captivated my imagination.

[nitpick]D&D was published in 1974.[/nitpick]

Quote from: Bren;826293[nitpick]D&D was published in 1974.[/nitpick]

Quote from: CRKrueger;826258Ok, but this is seven... :D

sorry guys, none of that fit my narrative :)

Quote from: Endless Flight;826270Movies, people. Movies.

My whole post is completely and entirely about the Star Wars movies.  What?  Why are you looking at me like that?


BTW: McConaughey Weeps (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYHdQUyOunA)

I am not getting the excitement about the teaser trailers.

Fortunately Stephen Colbert was able to break down the first one (http://deadline.com/2014/12/stephen-colbert-star-wars-trailer-review-video-1201306021/), but sadly he is not here to elucidate us on the new trailer.

Star Wars Battlefront 3 looks great though.

Quote from: Kiero;825942Be that as it may, there is some absolute shit on that list. The Exorcist? Avatar? Titanic? Virtually everything pre-1970 (barring the animation)?

Are you for real?

Quote from: Rincewind1;825946So you loved 50 Shades of Grey?

I never saw it and have no intention to. But only a total fucktard would deny that the movie was a huge success. It boggles the mind that people can't tell the difference between opinions and facts.

Quote from: Elfdart;827266I never saw it and have no intention to. But only a total fucktard would deny that the movie was a huge success. It boggles the mind that people can't tell the difference between opinions and facts.

Here's a fact for you then:

Commercial success does not necessarily equal quality.

Quote from: Rincewind1;827368Here's a fact for you then:

Commercial success does not necessarily equal quality.

No, that's your opinion.

Quote from: Elfdart;827785No, that's your opinion.

No, this is an opinion. That was a fact.

Commercial success != quality is a fact, not an opinion. They are not the same thing despite their association with each other and the general assumption of the public.

The fact is, 700 million people will go to see this movie because of its predecessors; that in itself is not indicative of quality but of the massive following that this franchise has.

I'll go see it because I love Star Wars and I'll enjoy it whether it's good or not.

Commercial success = Commercial success, nothing more, nothing less.

Plenty of excellent movies that we consider "classics" today were actually not commercial successes when they were released. And vice versa. There are plenty of hugely successful movies you probably never heard of.

But of course, Quality = Opinion to a very large degree.

Quote from: Spinachcat;829500Commercial success = Commercial success, nothing more, nothing less.

Plenty of excellent movies that we consider "classics" today were actually not commercial successes when they were released. And vice versa. There are plenty of hugely successful movies you probably never heard of.

But of course, Quality = Opinion to a very large degree.

"Quality" is purely a matter of opinion. I brought up commercial success because it's the only objective standard.

Quote from: Elfdart;832897"Quality" is purely a matter of opinion. I brought up commercial success because it's the only objective standard.

One of the things the Red Letter Media reviews nailed, if you can sit through them, was how much George Lucas had completely lost it as a film-maker by the time he made the sequels.  We're talking everything from how to shoot a scene and camera setup to plot reveals and character -people go to college to learn that kind of thing.

The same long tracking shots where characters walk along a corridor talking, scenes that are obviously stitched together from actors working solo on greenscreens, an action film where characters sit around on couches discussing politics and economics, no structure in terms of action or character or plot.

Those three films have to do ONE thing - make Anakin's fall to the dark side plausible, tragic even.  Anakin falls because the Sith promise eternal life while Yoda tells him not to care about people.  The "tragedy" is that the Sith are lying, the Jedi have eternal life but only because they stumble across it offscreen five minutes from the end of the trilogy, and it wouldn't save Padme anyway - all that kind of happens in asides and it's never really brought to the fore.  Lucas boasted that his first draft of the film was what got filmed, and it really shows.

Star Wars isn't perfect, far from it.  Notably the dialogue and acting are atrocious, but the original film is pretty tight.  The attack on the Death Star is tensely written - the ships have a definite goal and a timer is counting down.  Compare with the sloppiness of the space battle scenes in episodes I and III where stuff just kinda... happens...

If you can't face another Red Letter Media video, Hulk Critic is also very good - an anonymous working screenwriter who does a good job of dissecting what works and doesn't about films.

Hindsight is obviously easy, but what doesn't fill me with joy is the thought of Abrams and his scriptwriting team let loose on Star Wars.  Prometheus may ask lots of deep questions and put all sorts of little Easter Eggs into the film (I'm pretty sure the final events take place on Christmas Day, but I'm not going back to check), but it's a really, really bad film.  Character and plot only serve to advance The Mystery, and are there to be changed as soon as The Script requires a little movement.  

Same with Into Darkness - by the time Spock is as confused as the audience, he just phones his alternate-universe future self to get the plot.  Possibly one of the laziest reveals since... well, since Yoda says "BTW - Immortalz!".  And let's not talk about "Hey, I brought a Tribble back to life - wonder what we could use THAT for".  Chekhov's gun was never so ill-used...

Of course I'm going to see it anyway.. :D

Quote from: Elfdart;814070The "recent domination by CGI models over practical FX" is a myth. The problem is that people assume every effect is CGI. For example, the Prequels used more sets and models and on location shooting than the Original Trilogy by a huge margin. But that doesn't stop know-nothings from squealing "It's all CGI!"

I've been guilty of this. I thought Mad Max: Fury Road was a bunch of CGI nonsense, and then someone told me it was mostly "practical" effects.

However, I'd say we just need a new word - perhaps "Impractical Effects" - for unrealistic too-spectacular action sequences that are so excessive that it's a miracle they happened, and instead of each being a significant fluke unexpected thing that happened, they are shown one after the other, so that the amazing becomes commonplace, and the supposed danger and conflict of the film becomes low-risk and arbitrary, like a game where you get 10000 hit points and your enemies do 1d4 damage, and your saving throws mean you need to roll a 1 or higher unless the GM decides it's a dramatic moment and then it's a contest of who can make up the cooler-sounding more over-the-top thing to happen.

I plan to see Star Wars 7 to see what they do with it. I plan to reserve actual quality-judgement for after that.

Quote from: Skarg;837511I've been guilty of this. I thought Mad Max: Fury Road was a bunch of CGI nonsense, and then someone told me it was mostly "practical" effects.

Mad Max: Furry Road was pretty good as an extended chase scene. And most of the actors in it were pretty good.

Note that the misspelling in there IS deliberate.

I just hope John Boyega has more acting range than just sweating and giving everyone a "WTF!?" stare...

Quote from: Skarg;837511However, I'd say we just need a new word - perhaps "Impractical Effects" - for unrealistic too-spectacular action sequences that are so excessive that it's a miracle they happened, and instead of each being a significant fluke unexpected thing that happened, they are shown one after the other, so that the amazing becomes commonplace, and the supposed danger and conflict of the film becomes low-risk and arbitrary, like a game where you get 10000 hit points and your enemies do 1d4 damage, and your saving throws mean you need to roll a 1 or higher unless the GM decides it's a dramatic moment and then it's a contest of who can make up the cooler-sounding more over-the-top thing to happen.

I saw a review of the new Jurrasic Park movie where the reviewers pointed out the 'restraint' that movie shows in light of what is possible to put on the screen these days ala Michael Bay. They mentioned the movie itself takes a subtle swipe at the 'more is MORE' audiences who fuel the fire for such unwatchable Stimulapaloozas.
So maybe some folks are starting to back away from that...

I don't mind CGI in particular but dislike it when FX are used as a distraction from bad storytelling... 'Wait... that doesn't make any sense... ooooh! Shiny!'

Quote from: Elfdart;832897"Quality" is purely a matter of opinion. I brought up commercial success because it's the only objective standard.

One of the things the Red Letter Media reviews did, if you could sit through them, was show, pretty objectively, how terrible the prequels were in their filmcraft - you know, the stuff people go to college to study.

Long tracking shots in corridor exposition scenes that lasted the amount of time it took the actors to walk across a green-screen set.  Couch discussions in an action film.  No physicality or interaction with sets that didn't exist, little attempt to make the point of view anything other than room+ background.

Scripts that got seriously garbled and poorly structured when they got to the important bits - why DID Anakin fall?  How poor a reveal is it, right at the end of three films, to have Yoda say - "Oh BTW - Immortalz!!!".  And why bother when it wouldn't have saved Padme for Anakin anyway.  And how EXACTLY did she die again??? Lucas (famously) filmed the first draft of Sith - it shows.

Continuity - didn't Obi-Wan get his legs crushed in the first five fifteen minutes of Sith?  Oh no, no worries, he's walking around now.

Dialogue that's flatulent when it should be snappy ("Around the survivors a perimeter create!") - even Star Wars, with all its shit lines and bad acting, managed snappy.

Unstructured set pieces, the space battles especially - again, Star Wars managed to give the attack on the Death Star a map, a goal and a countdown.

Possibly the weirdest and worst-acted/dialogued love story in the history of cinema - IIRC Padme doesn't declare her full love for Anakin until he's admitted he's a crypto-fascist AND a mass-murderer.  Just checkin' baby...

And let's be honest - you, me and everyone else wanted Jango Fett's head to plop onto the ground with a thud when a grieving Boba picked up his father's helmet...

Episode 7 - I'll be queuing... :)

Quote from: Werekoala;837637I just hope John Boyega has more acting range than just sweating and giving everyone a "WTF!?" stare...

I dunno, Harrison Ford and Keanu Reeves both made film careers out of much less ;)

Boyega is pretty decent in Attack the Block.

Last one, honest... like Pundy says, there's a huge swathe of work in cinemas these days where people just seem to have forgotten how to make a film.

Avatar, where they lifted the script off a cereal box (kind of liked the world-building though).  Who needs Plot or Character, Prometheus, when you have a MYSTERY to get through?

John Carter - not bad, but we'll just go walkabout for the middle third of the film (shame - for me, the back plot with his murdered family works in the battle with the Warhoon).

Transformers - I can't even tell what's happening in the machine fights, apart from the yellow bits that belong to Bumblebee.  I didn't even realise Optimus Prime was dead until he came back...

Star Trek -  we thought we'd take a cool plot and cake it with alternate universe and time travel shit until you couldn't fucking care.  Into Darkness - hey, another Mystery!  We'll throw characters around and load it up with plot.  Scotty needs to be off the ship so we'll have him throw a tantrum and resign.  When everyone is really confused, we'll have Spock phone his alternate-universe self in the middle of the movie for a reveal.  We need something to bring back Kirk from the dead too.. maybe some magic blood or something.

And The Hobbit... *weeps*

Oh yeah - spoilers :o

Quote from: Werekoala;837637I just hope John Boyega has more acting range than just sweating and giving everyone a "WTF!?" stare...

That's still a hyperspace jump ahead of Hayden Christensen.

JG

Quote from: Momotaro;837783One of the things the Red Letter Media reviews did, if you could sit through them, was show, pretty objectively, how terrible the prequels were in their filmcraft - you know, the stuff people go to college to study.

I went to grad school at an art college and intermixed a good bit with the film students. Big bunch of wankers who spent all their time thinking about the technical end and zero on the storytelling. These were the 'we'll fix it in post' guys who thought computers and high tech were the key to making bank at the box office.

They ALL wanted to be Quentin Tarentino and none of the ones I met had any knowledge of film outside the U.S. (except for some of the Asian students) and nothing older than the 90s unless it was Scarface or The Godfather.

My roommate was a large black man and the film students were beating down our door every week to get him to play a gangster/pimp in one of their little movies... at first it was funny and then it was sad.

Quote from: James Gillen;837868That's still a hyperspace jump ahead of Hayden Christensen.

JG

Well, obviously. :)

I think it's polite to say that people searching for good acting don't tend to find it in the Star Wars franchise on the whole.

Quote from: Hodden;837974I think it's polite to say that people searching for good acting don't tend to find it in the Star Wars franchise on the whole.

Noooo! That's impossible!

Quote from: Bren;837995Noooo! That's impossible!

Not enough o's for Star Wars there mate.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo!!

That's more like it.

Quote from: Hodden;838037Not enough o's for Star Wars there mate.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo!!

That's more like it.

Hello mate! Welcome to the dark-side. ;)

Quote from: Hodden;838037Not enough o's for Star Wars there mate.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo!!

That's more like it.

I sit corrected.

Quote from: One Horse Town;838057Hello mate! Welcome to the dark-side. ;)

You say that like I'm new to the Dark Side?

But yeah, I'm posting here now.

I had to laugh when the clips from Comic-Con came out (both the three-minute ad and the hour-long meet & greet with the stars. First was the syrupy "Reeeeeal sets... reeeeeeeal effects..." voice over while the footage shows green screen in every shot, as well as motion capture suits! Then watching everyone oooh and aaaaah over a fucking muppet that looked like a reject from Fraggle Rock.

I never realized that what made Star Wars great was muppets and matte lines!

Quote from: Elfdart;842991I never realized that what made Star Wars great was muppets and matte lines!

Nobody knows what made Star Wars great. Not even its creator. It was lightning bolt on pop culture. 40 years later, every studio exec has desperately wanted another Star Wars, but whatever magic made the first one doesn't seem to be something all the experts, academics and fans can explain in such a manner that another such phenomenon can be created.

At best, the next SW movie will be more fun than the prequels - which people bitch about incessantly, but the sales of prequel stuff was astronomical so apparently somebody liked them.

I think its like porn. Absolutely nobody ever pays for it, but somehow its a billion dollar industry.

Quote from: Spinachcat;843027Nobody knows what made Star Wars great. Not even its creator.

It was a fun action movie at a time when there was a lot of cynicism in the national conciousness.

It plugged into a lot of neat ideas, like Flash Gordon serials, the ever mentioned Hero's Journey, an homage to Dambusters and The Hidden Fortress.

And most importanly, it was made at a time when George Lucas was a fresh, young filmmaker, hungry to make something good. Maybe not great, but at least he cared back then.

The years, the money, the merchandising, his own laziness and hubris gave us the prequels. Not good, but at least there was a glimmer of a neat idea in there.

This new flick? It's going to suffer from things already mentioned. Odds are very good that it's going to have a stupid plot that only exists to create empty, petty drama between the characters, and a total lack of any kind of suspense as improbable action scene after improbable action scene wash over the theater, numbing the audience.

It's gonna be worse than the prequels. At least they were frustratingly bad. This new flick is going to be the point where Star Wars is just another loud, pointless summer action flick. Easily forgotten when the next Transformers comes out.

Quote from: Elfdart;842991I had to laugh when the clips from Comic-Con came out (both the three-minute ad and the hour-long meet & greet with the stars. First was the syrupy "Reeeeeal sets... reeeeeeeal effects..." voice over while the footage shows green screen in every shot, as well as motion capture suits! Then watching everyone oooh and aaaaah over a fucking muppet that looked like a reject from Fraggle Rock.

I never realized that what made Star Wars great was muppets and matte lines!

Actually, that's it exactly.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;826220I almost cried when I saw that trailer.

Partially because I realized just how Goddamn old Harrison Ford is.

JG

And by extension, how Goddamn old you are! :eek:

StarWars.com ran a poll recently asking people to choose their favorite Star Wars film. The results after I took the poll.

41% - The Empire Strikes Back
20% - Revenge of the Sith
18% - Return of the Jedi
12% - A New Hope
5% - Attack of the Clones
4% - The Phantom Menace

I'm not surprised, but others might be.

Quote from: Endless Flight;847022StarWars.com ran a poll recently asking people to choose their favorite Star Wars film. The results after I took the poll.

41% - The Empire Strikes Back
20% - Revenge of the Sith
18% - Return of the Jedi
12% - A New Hope
5% - Attack of the Clones
4% - The Phantom Menace

I'm not surprised, but others might be.

Pretty much the order I would have expected. Though I did like AotC more than I think is the general consensus. TESB is the best though by a mile.

I'm probably alone in thinking this, but... IMHO none of the sequels, not even the lauded Empire, even come close to the '77 original (i.e. "A New Hope").

The original Star Wars was sui generis, a magician's alchemical brew of Westerns, The Wizard of Oz, fairy tales, samurai movies, Baby Boomer youth culture, WWII movies, and space opera. The pacing is odd, the acting is weirdly flat, and some scenes are clumsy, but as a whole it tapped into a circuit cable of primal fable in a way that very, very few pop commercial works do.

The sequels are all "Just" science-fiction films. Even in their best moments they never quite recapture that mythical feel.

You are not alone.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;849975I'm probably alone in thinking this, but... IMHO none of the sequels, not even the lauded Empire, even come close to the '77 original (i.e. "A New Hope").

The original Star Wars was sui generis, a magician's alchemical brew of Westerns, The Wizard of Oz, fairy tales, samurai movies, Baby Boomer youth culture, WWII movies, and space opera. The pacing is odd, the acting is weirdly flat, and some scenes are clumsy, but as a whole it tapped into a circuit cable of primal fable in a way that very, very few pop commercial works do.

The sequels are all "Just" science-fiction films. Even in their best moments they never quite recapture that mythical feel.

But don't you think that is because you watched it when you were seven. ...
I recently got hold of all the movies for my daughter to watch as she had heard a lot about them. After a couple of weeks on holiday her view was they were alright but not nearly as good as harry potter or  lord of the rings as the characters don't grow, the bad guy isn't very scary and some of them are annoying. Mind you she is 10 so maybe a bit old for star wars

Quote from: jibbajibba;850002But don't you think that is because you watched it when you were seven. ...

It is true that I first saw Star Wars under possibly the most perfect conditions possible: 1979, age 8, at a drive-in, sitting on top of my sister's boyfriend's car in my pajamas.

Quote from: jibbajibba;850002But don't you think that is because you watched it when you were seven.

No. And I wasn't.

I love A New Hope, but really, if Sir Alec Guiness wasn't in the film, it wouldn't be anywhere near as compelling. I know Lucas gave him a shitload (a percentage of the gross) to star in it, but it was worth every penny and then some.

Empire is the best film in the series. Different locales, more interesting characters, and the greatest cliffhanger in movie history.

I always liked the first one best because it was new and original. I do think the last one was the best made, and I agree with Camille Paglia that it's not just the best movie of the last thirty years, but it's also the best work of art.

For me, Governor Tarkin was much more of a loathsome villain than Darth Vader. He seemed to get a real kick out blowing up Princess Leia's planet after getting her to spill her guts. Peter Cushing was a great actor who really sold the part.

Quote from: Elfdart;850188For me, Governor Tarkin was much more of a loathsome villain than Darth Vader. He seemed to get a real kick out blowing up Princess Leia's planet after getting her to spill her guts. Peter Cushing was a great actor who really sold the part.

This. IMO Vader was originally just the henchman, but then Lucas "revealed" he "wanted" to "make a trilogy (or septology, or nonology, or whatever)" all along, and he became the Big Bad. Tarkin was clearly the head bad guy - if Vader was the feared right-hand man of the Emperor that he became afterwards, then I doubt any lower-ranking officers would mouth off to him.

Additionally, anyone who spiraled off into the depths of space after failing to save the Death Star would be unlikely to inexplicably become said right-hand man.

Tarkin (via Cushing) just exudes authority and evil, and Cushing still managed to make him upper-classy, not just a mindless brute (which again, Vader kinda was, admit it). He was a great baddie.

Quote from: Werekoala;850198This. IMO Vader was originally just the henchman, but then Lucas "revealed" he "wanted" to "make a trilogy (or septology, or nonology, or whatever)" all along, and he became the Big Bad. Tarkin was clearly the head bad guy - if Vader was the feared right-hand man of the Emperor that he became afterwards, then I doubt any lower-ranking officers would mouth off to him.

I recently found out that there are a few cut scenes from Jedi that made their way onto the web. (Probably from some blu-ray edition or another)

https://youtu.be/y1qyXxLIXLw?t=7m2s

Note that Jerjerrod is willing to stand up to Vader, even if he is outclassed, and !The Royal Guard are ready to attack Vader!!
I found it rather insteresting.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;850211I recently found out that there are a few cut scenes from Jedi that made their way onto the web. (Probably from some blu-ray edition or another)

https://youtu.be/y1qyXxLIXLw?t=7m2s

Note that Jerjerrod is willing to stand up to Vader, even if he is outclassed, and !The Royal Guard are ready to attack Vader!!
I found it rather insteresting.

Well those scenes change the whole dynamic of the end of RotJ for me... The Emperor had already decided (as he says in the next scene) to make Luke his new apprentice, therefore making Vader useless (at best) and a threat (which he proved shortly thereafter) at worst. The Emperor clearly didn't want Vader anywhere close at that point - I envision a Robot Chicken-esque scene where Vader shows up unexpectedly in the throne room. :) They even show Vader's slump at realizing that he had been replaced. Changes his motivation quite a bit, from redeemed Father to "Fuck You, I'mma Blow it All Up" scorned henchman. Makes me wonder if the original ending had the heartwarming helmet removal scene at all (especially considering what Gary Kurtz has to say about the original plans for RotJ in some of his interviews).

I like that the Emperor ordered Endor destroyed if the generator failed - he wanted to wipe out any possible hope Luke had of "rescue" or succor from friends, and he had no family left except Vader, potentially. It was more important to the Emperor than even saving the DSII that Luke's will be utterly broken.

Thanks for the link, those two short scenes actually make things much more interesting. :)

Quote from: Werekoala;850198Tarkin (via Cushing) just exudes authority and evil, and Cushing still managed to make him upper-classy, not just a mindless brute (which again, Vader kinda was, admit it). He was a great baddie.

Carrie Fisher said that she found it very tough shooting scenes with Peter Cushing because she was supposed to tell him how vile he was, yet he was the kindest, sweetest man she'd ever met. Some actor!

Quote from: Elfdart;850261Carrie Fisher said that she found it very tough shooting scenes with Peter Cushing because she was supposed to tell him how vile he was, yet he was the kindest, sweetest man she'd ever met. Some actor!

Miniature wargamer as well
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1776jpbWc1qaqou6o1_400.png)

Quote from: Werekoala;850214Well those scenes change the whole dynamic of the end of RotJ for me... The Emperor had already decided (as he says in the next scene) to make Luke his new apprentice, therefore making Vader useless (at best) and a threat (which he proved shortly thereafter) at worst. The Emperor clearly didn't want Vader anywhere close at that point - I envision a Robot Chicken-esque scene where Vader shows up unexpectedly in the throne room. :) They even show Vader's slump at realizing that he had been replaced. Changes his motivation quite a bit, from redeemed Father to "Fuck You, I'mma Blow it All Up" scorned henchman.

One of the things they did well in the prequels was emphasizing over and over that Sidious ditches his Sith underlings faster than Hugh Hefner gets rid of blondes when they hit 25.

QuoteMakes me wonder if the original ending had the heartwarming helmet removal scene at all (especially considering what Gary Kurtz has to say about the original plans for RotJ in some of his interviews).

What Gary Kurtz has to say on the subject of RotJ is sprinkled with horseshit. He quit a few months after TESB came out, so he had no role in RotJ. Story-wise, all Lucas had was a jumble of notes and a few lines on legal pads, and things he cut out of early drafts for ANH.

Rinzler's "Making of" books are fascinating. You can get them on Google fairly cheap -check 'em out.

Quote from: Werekoala;850198Tarkin (via Cushing) just exudes authority and evil, and Cushing still managed to make him upper-classy, not just a mindless brute (which again, Vader kinda was, admit it). He was a great baddie.

Kinda nothing! :D Vader was always portrayed as vicious and cruel. The kinda guy the Emperor sent into a situation because people had failed him, and it was time to send in the monster-robot-sith-man to make a pile of bodies and get shit done.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;850012It is true that I first saw Star Wars under possibly the most perfect conditions possible: 1979, age 8, at a drive-in, sitting on top of my sister's boyfriend's car in my pajamas.

We used to watch movies at the local drive-in, only we watched them from my friend's back yard, which was close enough to give us balcony seats for one of the two screens. You also had a good view of the screen from the parking lot of the mall and the farmer's market next door. They demolished the drive-in 25 years ago and built a Wal-Mart.

FUCK Wal-Mart.

I realize this is only indirectly related to Episode 7, but it's fucking hilarious!

Back when George Lucas was planning to direct Episode 7, then sell the franchise off, he wanted to build his own studio at Grady Ranch in Marin, CA. Even though Lucas has always been an ideal custodian of the properties he owns, spending huge sums to make sure his projects are not eyesores or blights on the community, the local NIMBYs (homeowners' associations, mostly) raised holy hell, threatening lawsuit after lawsuit.

Lucas decided that spending the rest of his natural life fighting NIMBYs in court wasn't to his liking, so he sold out to Disney to the tune of over $4 billion and counting (half the amount was in the form of shares in Disney). That's quite a sum of "fuck you" money, but Lucas wasn't done yet: He announced that since (a) the homeowners' association were such snobbish dickheads and (b) Grady Ranch was already zoned for apartments and housing, he was going to sell the ranch to a developer on the condition that the real estate be used for low-cost housing.

Since low-cost housing isn't very profitable, developers backed away. So now George Lucas is going to use some of the money he got from selling out to Disney (upwards of $150 million) to fund the project himself! (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/17/george-lucas-wants-to-build-affordable-housing-on-his-land-because-weve-got-enough-millionaires/)

Nothing sets a NIMBY's panties on fire like the thought of "those people" moving into the neighborhood, so of course there have been countless shrieks of terror from the middle-aged brats of Marin. Fuck 'em.

The new trailer is up. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL15KbAxfKZE2GLuGleeSpswg_UjJ_Imel&v=sGbxmsDFVnE)

Judging from the somber version of the Han & Leia theme (1:04 ), it's a good bet Han Solo is a goner.

Quote from: Elfdart;861072The new trailer is up. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL15KbAxfKZE2GLuGleeSpswg_UjJ_Imel&v=sGbxmsDFVnE)

Judging from the somber version of the Han & Leia theme (1:04 ), it's a good bet Han Solo is a goner.

I think Chewie is a more likely candidate.

Only if they have a spare moon to drop on him.

I only wish I was kidding.

Quote from: JongWK;861103I think Chewie is a more likely candidate.

Nope, Han's a dead man walking.

The reason? Ford doesn't have a multi-picture deal. Fisher and Hammil do. Ford wanted out from under Han, as he never enjoyed the role like he did Indy, and felt his story was done with Jedi. J.J. gave Ford what he wanted in return for Ford's reprisal. All other Han stories are going to be Young Han, done with a new (young) actor, with Ford taking his final bow and walking away after his commitments (promotional, in this case) for VII are complete.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;861196Nope, Han's a dead man walking.

The reason? Ford doesn't have a multi-picture deal. Fisher and Hammil do. Ford wanted out from under Han, as he never enjoyed the role like he did Indy, and felt his story was done with Jedi. J.J. gave Ford what he wanted in return for Ford's reprisal. All other Han stories are going to be Young Han, done with a new (young) actor, with Ford taking his final bow and walking away after his commitments (promotional, in this case) for VII are complete.

I did not know about the contract aspect. Makes sense then...

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;861196Nope, Han's a dead man walking.

The reason? Ford doesn't have a multi-picture deal. Fisher and Hammil do. Ford wanted out from under Han, as he never enjoyed the role like he did Indy, and felt his story was done with Jedi. J.J. gave Ford what he wanted in return for Ford's reprisal. All other Han stories are going to be Young Han, done with a new (young) actor, with Ford taking his final bow and walking away after his commitments (promotional, in this case) for VII are complete.

Ford has already said more than once that Han should have died in RotJ.  He says that Han is an action hero that doesn't age as well as a scholar like Indiana Jones.  (And we saw how well HE's aged.)

JG

Still haven't watched any trailers, but on the subject of Han dying I'm surprised to realize I feel nothing. It doesn't feel "real" or "canon", and it probably won't even after I see this in theaters.

I guess it's been too long since we last saw these characters, the original trilogy is frozen in amber and cannot be organically altered or added to, even if the actors come back. In a way I've never internalized the prequels' backstory for Vader either.

That said, additional movies in the Star Wars universe that don't deal much with the characters of the original trilogy do hold some interest for me.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;861341Still haven't watched any trailers, but on the subject of Han dying I'm surprised to realize I feel nothing. It doesn't feel "real" or "canon", and it probably won't even after I see this in theaters.

Yup. For me, it's partly because this is JJ Abram's Star Wars. Heck, the feeling started with the prequels (this is all some EU stuff) for me, and while I didn't hate them as much as some others, I do think that Lucas was out of touch with why people liked the original movies.

The new trailer doesn't do anything for me. I don't feel moved at all. But this commercial for SW Battlefront for Playstation really got me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mByznNYCWTY

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;861341I guess it's been too long since we last saw these characters, the original trilogy is frozen in amber and cannot be organically altered

Agreed.

I'm cool with Han dying. I agree with Harrison that Han (and Chewie) should have died heroically in Jedi.

Quote from: Spinachcat;861681I'm cool with Han dying. I agree with Harrison that Han (and Chewie) should have died heroically in Jedi.

Eeeeeh. I'm sick of the idea that dying heroically is any good for a story. It seems to get chucked around so much that I don't give a fuck. Like when Wash died in Serentity I was like "Well, that happened." And I say that as a Firefly fan.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;861682Eeeeeh. I'm sick of the idea that dying heroically is any good for a story. It seems to get chucked around so much that I don't give a fuck. Like when Wash died in Serentity I was like "Well, that happened." And I say that as a Firefly fan.

I agree. Sequels (especially by new authors and directors) killing off old characters for dramatic "purposes" .... ugh. I'm actually prefer stories where characters can and do die even by chance, but being obviously killed off or "heroically sacrificing themselves" (generally without the author even bothering to have a logical compelling plot reason for it) is perhaps my least favorite form of forced plot.

After seeing Abrams turn Star Trek into a weird adolescent Young Adult action/fantasy/BS, I have faint hope of SW7 feeling like a real sequel to the original trilogy. Also, I think it's hiarious that they engineered a rolling beachball droid that actually exists but looks like it's CGI anyway (and that I find visually annoying).

Seems to me far more plausible that Han would just break up with Leia after a while and go do his own thing and stop playing hero. Or, that Leia and Han would by this time be doing something else in the galaxy and both be smart enough to realize they didn't need to be action heroes anywhere. Surely a galaxy has room for people to retire or not need to always be involved with their old friends at all times.

I really hate perceived film & genre conventions driving plots in nonsensical ways. Could you tell?

The Star Wars film (well, short film) or game that I want to have happen, is Episode III.i: Extermination of the Gungans.

I wanted to see the heroes become the villains, (A repressive New Republic) instead of re-hashing the Empire over again. I hear they have a new Death Star.

But then, that's re-hashing the prequel arc. Hrm. Maybe we need some bio-mechanical bad guys to invade the New Republic! :rotfl:

Quote from: Ratman_tf;861804I wanted to see the heroes become the villains, (A repressive New Republic) instead of re-hashing the Empire over again. I hear they have a new Death Star.

But then, that's re-hashing the prequel arc. Hrm. Maybe we need some bio-mechanical bad guys to invade the New Republic! :rotfl:

Luke is going to end up the BigBad, by the end of the movie if not sooner - mark it well.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;861682Like when Wash died in Serentity I was like "Well, that happened." And I say that as a Firefly fan.

I loved Wash's death because it was sudden, unexpected and not heroic. He was just lost to us in the chaos of battle, the kind of death only redshirts get, but suddenly occurred to "one of our own."

That we haven't seen much in movies, and probably only happened because the actor Alan Tudyk has no career sense (or figured the franchise was dead) and was okay with getting his character whacked.

Quote from: Spinachcat;861856I loved Wash's death because it was sudden, unexpected and not heroic. He was just lost to us in the chaos of battle, the kind of death only redshirts get, but suddenly occurred to "one of our own."

That we haven't seen much in movies, and probably only happened because the actor Alan Tudyk has no career sense (or figured the franchise was dead) and was okay with getting his character whacked.

I prefer that sort, too. Especially when/if they happen generally in proportion to the risks, as it makes it much easier to think the danger in the plot has some significance to it, and isn't voided by "main character shields".

Quote from: Spinachcat;861856I loved Wash's death because it was sudden, unexpected and not heroic. He was just lost to us in the chaos of battle, the kind of death only redshirts get, but suddenly occurred to "one of our own."

That we haven't seen much in movies, and probably only happened because the actor Alan Tudyk has no career sense (or figured the franchise was dead) and was okay with getting his character whacked.

I think everyone involved did that movie with the knowledge that it was never gonna be a series again and almost certainly not going to get picked up for a sequel, so they were just wrapping up the narrative (namely River's storyline) as much as possible.

JG

Quote from: Werekoala;861854Luke is going to end up the BigBad, by the end of the movie if not sooner - mark it well.

Ah yes, the "why isn't Luke's in the poster?, oh wait, he is there!" theory.

We will see. It makes some sense.

Quote from: Spinachcat;862072Ah yes, the "why isn't Luke's in the poster?, oh wait, he is there!" theory.

We will see. It makes some sense.

Eh - I've been touting the theory for well over a year, for Reasons. Mostly because I think it would be an amazing story development, I think Hamill would be a GREAT bad guy (his voice work as the Joker shows he can get into the mindset, and he once said in an interview he wouldn't mind being Bad Luke), and it fits the thematic cycle of the movies so far. A fall from grace for the fair-haired Hero would fit nicely, and be a more "mature" twist for a franchise that that is almost 40 years old.

I know it won't be nearly as dark as I'd do it - think "Heart of Darkness"/"Apocalypse Now" with Luke as. Col. Kurtz. One or both of the Kids take on the Martin Sheen role.

"Dathomir. Why did it have to be Dathomir..." :)

Quote from: Werekoala;862121A fall from grace for the fair-haired Hero would fit nicely, and be a more "mature" twist for a franchise that that is almost 40 years old.

(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/p__/images/a/a7/3947959-anakin-skywalker-force-choke.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150311220857&path-prefix=protagonist)

Ok, a fall from grace for a fair-haired LIKEABLE Hero.... :)

From what I've seen of the trailers I'm trying to put together a probable story arc. The black storm-trooper was the only recognizable character in the first trailers, and he's all over the new one, so he'd the clear hero, though the did add the girl.

But I see the BST is also wearing rebel gear and looking bemused, and someone mentioned seeing him with a lightsaber (I missed that personally). Given all the details its looking like we have a former stormtrooper who gets lost/left behind/sole survivor who winds up joining the rebellion and possibly becoming a jedi apprentice. Luke Skywalker is in it, which gives us an angle there as a possible mentor figure. I know they jettisoned the EU Canon (thank GOD), but that would mesh with his role in the books over the entire course of the EU.

Girl is clearly cast in the action heroine role of the Padme from Attack of the Clones, so female lead. Romantic interest? I'm not sure. Abrams doesn't have a track record of 'shipping' characters in the usual fashion so I'm willing to believe not.  Could be the/a Solo Child, which would make some sense with the scenes with Han and Leia, giving a smart 'passing of the torch' story arc.

The Bad Guy is clearly a sith worshipper of Darth Vadar (worshipper does seem the best word here). Not betting on Luke for that role, not that I'd mind Evil Mark Hamill.  I wouldn't mind seeing Han Solo die, if only because over the last two decades I've gotten the impression that, while I like Harrison Ford's characters, I don't much like Harrison Ford, or rather his attitude towards his job.  

Anyway: We clearly see an organization of these Sith types, and we see Storm Troopers and people who look like Rebels, so we can just call them Rebels and be done with it for now.  Again with the Tatooine.

Setting? With ditched EU, we can presume that the death of the Emperor above Endor was merely the beginning of the end for the Empire. Long running war with a slow rebuilding of the Republic? Seems most likely. Similar in shape to the EU stuff without being bound by it, maybe with a longer slog for Republic forces than in the books.

Han's comment, so far the only clear line of dialog, other than some vague mutterings about Darth Vader (as I recall. I haven't been obsessively parsing these trailers, you know...), suggests that the 'old gang' have been out of touch for a long while. Lost in space?   That does suggest, following the clear Star Warzian tradition of "Great Man of History" that without the Old Gang (or parts of it) the Rebellion hasn't been able to secure a strong footing against the remnants of Empire because their Great Men have been lost.

One thing that really jumped out at me in this trailer too - aside from the water-planet where the clones were grown, is this the only time it rains in Star Wars? :)

It rains on Dagobah, and R2 is stuck outside.

It's been known for a few years now that Lucas wanted David Hare to direct and write screenplays for the prequels. Now Ron Howard has come forward to that he, Steven Spielberg and Robert Zemeckis were also offered the job. (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/11/25/ron-howard-george-lucas-star-wars-episode-i-phantom-menace) So much for the notion of Lucas being a control freak.

SPOILER-FREE mini-review:

The Force Awakens is a fun romp... as long as you don't expect originality.

You've seen it all before. And that's kinda the movie's strength as well as it's weakness.

Plus it's got the energy mace from Gamma World in it.

Saw it. Liked it. The Family Liked it. Daniel Craig is in it. Oh, ...and they totally stole ideas from my home game!

Quote from: GameDaddy;870011Saw it. Liked it. The Family Liked it. Daniel Craig is in it. Oh, ...and they totally stole ideas from my home game!

He he. Which ones, if you don't mind telling?

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;869678The Force Awakens is a fun romp... as long as you don't expect originality.

You've seen it all before. And that's kinda the movie's strength as well as it's weakness.

Couldn't put it better myself.

Objectively better than the prequels. Like, if you disagree you have serious cognitive dissonance or you're delusional.

Speaking as someone who still finds some redeeming qualities in the prequels and can un-ironically enjoy watching them.

Quote from: Necrozius;870085Objectively better than the prequels. Like, if you disagree you have serious cognitive dissonance or you're delusional.

Speaking as someone who still finds some redeeming qualities in the prequels and can un-ironically enjoy watching them.

I feel exactly the same way! :-)

I thought it was well done, very fun and felt... Star Wars. So much so.

I'm looking forward to more installments in the future!

I have also seen it today. Pleased by what I saw. Definitely better thaht the 1st episode of the prequel. I feel relief that I do not longer need to extra careful on the internet because it is full of spoilers.

I saw it, too. It's pretty damn good. Not amazing, but much better than the prequel trilogy.

FRIENDLY TIP: THERE IS NO AFTER-THE-CREDITS SCENE. You can leave as soon as the credits start rolling. You won't miss anything.

Indeed better than the prequels, and a solid way to get the story going. A couple almost content-free observations:

1) Ever since I saw RoTJ in the theaters, I've loved the opening. Every time I see "A long time ago," and hear the powerful opening, it's chills everytime. It's the definition of movie magic.

2) I swear the lightsabers are not just different, but better this time around. Not just bright, but alive. Maybe I was seeing things, but I swear there was a ripple along the surface, like the saber is not just a powerful, but barely restrained. A lightsaber is bottled lightning.

I haven't seen it twice yet, but it's my third favorite movie in the saga and might move up to second. I plan on seeing it at least two more times. It's also the fastest 2 hours and 16 minutes you'll ever sit through at a movie theatre. The biggest surprise to me was how much I loved the new characters, especially Rey. She is easily one of my favorite characters in the Star Wars universe.

Quote from: danbuter;870162I saw it, too. It's pretty damn good. Not amazing, but much better than the prequel trilogy.

FRIENDLY TIP: THERE IS NO AFTER-THE-CREDITS SCENE. You can leave as soon as the credits start rolling. You won't miss anything.

After-the-credits scenes were invented some time after Star Wars came out and aren't really a "tradition" for Star Wars like they are with Marvel.

JG

Quote from: JamesV;870169Indeed better than the prequels, and a solid way to get the story going. A couple almost content-free observations:

2) I swear the lightsabers are not just different, but better this time around. Not just bright, but alive. Maybe I was seeing things, but I swear there was a ripple along the surface, like the saber is not just a powerful, but barely restrained. A lightsaber is bottled lightning.

In an interview Abrams has said they want the lightsabers to be a bit more 'rough' and the lightsaber duels to be much more 'scrappy' and rough & tumble than they were in the prequels.
 If you look at the classic trilogy - chapters 4,5, and 6 - the lightsaber fights were few and tense, not as 'smooth' as they were in the prequels - which makes sense there aren't any more Jedi around to train each other and spar with each other.

 Now in "Force Awakens" - its 30 years even further down the timeline - STILL not that many 'Jedi' around - even if Skywalker was training some as the dialogue says. Kylo Ren probably built his own lightsaber - so its a bit more 'savage' than it should be. Also, the one that Finn and Rey use is supposed to be the same one that Luke was holding when his hand was cut off during the climactic scene in "The Empire Strikes Back".

 Now THAT would be a story! - How was it found and how did it become a revered relic?

- Ed C.

Koltar, you should spoiler tag some of that...

Quote from: danbuter;870231Koltar, you should spoiler tag some of that...

Why?

 Everything I mentioned was seen in the trailers or 'leaked' weeks before the movie premiered.

- Ed C.

Having seen the thing I can't say what I would call out as 'spoilers'. I enjoyed it but at no point in the story was I surprised by anything that happened and, IMO, it isn't the sort of movie that hinges on such things... the way something like Psycho or The Sixth Sense or Jacob's Ladder might.

The obsession with 'spoilers' seems to have gotten a bit out of hand to where a person can't even review the damn thing without fear of being accused of 'ruining' it for the fans.

I kept hoping for a Nimoy cameo as an 'old Jedi' or 'elder Rebel statesman'. I think if he had been in better health his last year or so Abrams might have slipped him into the movie somehow. In one of last interviews Nimoy hinted that if J.J. had asked him he was willing to do a part in "Star Wars Force Awakens"

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;870386I kept hoping for a Nimoy cameo as an 'old Jedi' or 'elder Rebel statesman'. I think if he had been in better health his last year or so Abrams might have slipped him into the movie somehow. In one of last interviews Nimoy hinted that if J.J. had asked him he was willing to do a part in "Star Wars Force Awakens"

- Ed C.

That would have been highly illogical.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;870396That would have been highly illogical.

JG

No - he could have done the part that Max Von Sydow did.....


- Ed C.

Quote from: Simlasa;870363Having seen the thing I can't say what I would call out as 'spoilers'. I enjoyed it but at no point in the story was I surprised by anything that happened

I don't recall anything surprising either - and I hadn't seen any of the trailers other than the very first, nor followed any of the hype leading up to it.  The movie itself telegraphs so much (largely by way of constantly rehashing scenes from earlier films) that I pretty much always knew what was coming.

Quote from: Simlasa;870363The obsession with 'spoilers' seems to have gotten a bit out of hand to where a person can't even review the damn thing without fear of being accused of 'ruining' it for the fans.

Totally agreed, and that's not limited to Force Awakens.  I don't grok why people get so worked up about spoilers in general, but Star Wars took that and turned it up to somewhere past eleven.

I saw it Monday and it was worse than bad -it was really mediocre. Like watching a cover band going through your favorite band's hits but offering nothing new.

J.J. Abrams is the Pat Boone of cinema.

Quote from: Elfdart;870473I saw it Monday and it was worse than bad -it was really mediocre. Like watching a cover band going through your favorite band's hits but offering nothing new.

I liked the movie -I've seen it twice- but let's be honest, Disney was playing it very safe with this movie and taking no chances. It was made by the type of studio executives who would have turned down the '77 Star Wars.

Guardians of the Galaxy remains my favorite Star Wars movie of recent years.

Quote from: Simlasa;870363Having seen the thing I can't say what I would call out as 'spoilers'. I enjoyed it but at no point in the story was I surprised by anything that happened and, IMO, it isn't the sort of movie that hinges on such things... the way something like Psycho or The Sixth Sense or Jacob's Ladder might.

The obsession with 'spoilers' seems to have gotten a bit out of hand to where a person can't even review the damn thing without fear of being accused of 'ruining' it for the fans.

I just had somebody on Facebook unfriend me for posting a bit praising Finn for not obeying orders.  As though the concept of him as an ex-Stormtrooper who joins the good guys wasn't already in the previews.

JG

I didn't watch a single preview, other than that very first one that Pundit was making fun of. I'm not sure why you guys can't understand why many people don't want to know anything before entering the theater.

There's a difference between "Don't tell me the ending" and:
"Don't tell ANYTHING!!!"
"Princess Leia wears a different hairdo."
"OMFG YOU RUINED IT!!!"

I didn't watch any previews either, nothing more than pictures I saw flashing around online and such. Story was still was utterly predictable... which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Quote from: danbuter;870570I didn't watch a single preview, other than that very first one that Pundit was making fun of. I'm not sure why you guys can't understand why many people don't want to know anything before entering the theater.

Then you are very much OUT of the norm for most 'geeks' ore Star Wars fans.

There were at least 5 distinct trailers that appeared in either theaters or on TV between may of this year ad its premiere on December 17th.

ALL of those trailers were posted to Youtube at some point. (Heck, one person edited all of them together and it totaled 16 minute running time)

 If you didn't pay attention to what was around you - then please don't blame other people for 'spoilers' who were paying attention.

Oh, and I'm a casual "Star Wars" fan everybody knows that I am more of a 'Star Trek' fan. I don't give a damn about any of the 'expanded universe' novels and their happy horsetrot...

- Ed C.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;870477I liked the movie -I've seen it twice- but let's be honest, Disney was playing it very safe with this movie and taking no chances. It was made by the type of studio executives who would have turned down the '77 Star Wars.

Was that being "safe"? To me, it was a huge disappointment how little they seemed to care about even trying to make any sense. So, safe only for people who don't notice how dumbed down it is. It makes the original film look like a masterpiece of making sense, in comparison. Massively mindless, even for a Star Wars film, is how I saw it.

Quote from: danbuter;870570I didn't watch a single preview, other than that very first one that Pundit was making fun of. I'm not sure why you guys can't understand why many people don't want to know anything before entering the theater.

You needn't worry: There are absolutely ZERO surprises in this film. If you watched ANH, you've already watched TFA, only done better with 1/35th the budget.

That's right, Disney spent over $350 million on this monument to mediocrity: more than all three Prequels combined*. Add in the costs of buying out George Lucas, and Disney has paid close to $5 billion just to slap Lucas' name, brand and IP on their own hackneyed, middling science fiction. It's basically John Carter, only with the Lucas paint job and hood ornament.

*What's really funny is that the Prequels, where everyone knew ahead of time what would happen, had more surprises than TFA.

Quote from: Elfdart;870661You needn't worry: There are absolutely ZERO surprises in this film. If you watched ANH, you've already watched TFA, only done better with 1/35th the budget.

That's right, Disney spent over $350 million on this monument to mediocrity: more than all three Prequels combined*. Add in the costs of buying out George Lucas, and Disney has paid close to $5 billion just to slap Lucas' name, brand and IP on their own hackneyed, middling science fiction. It's basically John Carter, only with the Lucas paint job and hood ornament.

*What's really funny is that the Prequels, where everyone knew ahead of time what would happen, had more surprises than TFA.

This.

It's mediocre overall. Individual elements work. Some work very well. But the bad elements are very bad, and none of it meshes that well. Writing is sloppy, unforgivably so given how little effort is necessary to fix many of the issues this film has (and how many outs they had to choose from), and that is why TFA is only better than the Prequels.

Quote from: Koltar;870589If you didn't pay attention to what was around you - then please don't blame other people for 'spoilers' who were paying attention.

I'm not sure you actually understand the concept of what a "spoiler" is, Koltar.

I mean, the entire script for the film leaked back in May. The fact that this information was "available" doesn't make it any less of a spoiler.

Quote from: Elfdart;870661That's right, Disney spent over $350 million on this monument to mediocrity: more than all three Prequels combined*.

The actual production budget was $200 million.

The total production budget of the prequels was $348 million ($115 million for TPM; $120 million for AOTC; $113 million for ROTS).

QuoteAdd in the costs of buying out George Lucas, and Disney has paid close to $5 billion just to slap Lucas' name, brand and IP on their own hackneyed, middling science fiction.

That's not how accounting works.

Quote from: Elfdart;870661Add in the costs of buying out George Lucas, and Disney has paid close to $5 billion just to slap Lucas' name, brand and IP on their own hackneyed, middling science fiction. It's basically John Carter, only with the Lucas paint job and hood ornament.

*What's really funny is that the Prequels, where everyone knew ahead of time what would happen, had more surprises than TFA.

The movie is going to make $2B worldwide. They paid $200M to make it. That's quite a haul. That doesn't count all the merchandising. They might make what they paid for Lucasfilm after one movie.

J.J. Abrams recently said he wanted the story to be easy to follow for young children, which was one of the criticisms of the prequels, especially the Phantom Menace and it's taxation of trade routes.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;870702The actual production budget was $200 million.

The total production budget of the prequels was $348 million ($115 million for TPM; $120 million for AOTC; $113 million for ROTS).

Forbes and the NYT put the total budget for TFA as $350 million -the difference being marketing. Lucasfilm spent very little on marketing for the Prequels. The most heavily promoted (Episode I) had much less spent on promotion: (http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/14/business/media-business-advertising-hype-with-us-lucas-empire-invading-resistance-futile.html?pagewanted=2)

QuoteTo help cool the overheated expectations, the advertising budget for ''The Phantom Menace'' is less than $20 million, not much for a film with a budget of $115 million competing in the blockbuster sweepstakes.

My point still stands, even if the math is a little off.

Quote from: Endless Flight;870752The movie is going to make $2B worldwide. They paid $200M to make it. That's quite a haul. That doesn't count all the merchandising. They might make what they paid for Lucasfilm after one movie.

Let's say it makes $2.5 billion. With a total budget of $350 million you'll have roughly a payoff of 7.14-1. That's lower than TPM's payoff of 7.6-1. But then, none of the Star Wars movies had a payoff close to that of American Graffiti, which enjoyed a payoff of over 140-1.

QuoteJ.J. Abrams recently said he wanted the story to be easy to follow for young children, which was one of the criticisms of the prequels, especially the Phantom Menace and it's taxation of trade routes.

Kids had no problem following the story of The Phantom Menace, nor did any adults who weren't imbeciles. Only neckbeards and movie critics were confounded by the plot. As Mike Wong pointed out regarding the Red Letter Moron, another marvel of intellect who found the plot to a Saturday matinee movie too confusing:  (http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=140361&p=3250852&hilit=flaming+retard#p3250852)

QuoteJesus Fucking Christ, is this guy honestly that goddamned stupid? He can't understand the plot of a Star Wars film? We're not talking about "Rashomon" here, for fuck's sake. The plot is as linear as they come. If anything, the film tries too hard to fill in all the gaps. This guy must be a flaming retard.

Exactly.

The general story, no. Regardless, Abrams, Kennedy and Bob Iger had little use for Lucas' treatments for the sequels and went their own direction after the sale was completed, probably due to the lasting impression from the previous three more than anything. The Force Awakens going to be a massive success as it's going to pass Avatar as the #1 movie in the United States. There was no guarantee that was going to happen. It looks as if Episode VIII is going to be an even better film from the initial buzz rolling out about the script.

Quote from: Endless Flight;870775The general story, no. Regardless, Abrams, Kennedy and Bob Iger had little use for Lucas' treatments for the sequels and went their own direction after the sale was completed, probably due to the lasting impression from the previous three. The Force Awakens going to be a massive success as it's going to pass Avatar as the #1 movie in the United States. There was no guarantee that was going to happen. It looks as if Episode VIII is going to be an even better film from the initial buzz rolling out about the script.

They didn't go their own direction, they did a limp remake of the original. Which only proves my earlier point: Disney had no use for anything original from George Lucas -they just wanted to slap his name brand on their own mediocre fan fiction, and shelled out billions to do so.

Quote from: Elfdart;870778They didn't go their own direction, they did a limp remake of the original. Which only proves my earlier point: Disney had no use for anything original from George Lucas -they just wanted to slap his name brand on their own mediocre fan fiction, and shelled out billions to do so.

Shelling out billions for the Star Wars IP makes business sense. Shelling out a lot of money for a George Lucas script from this century...not so much.

"People on internet forum don't like popular movie.  Details at eleven!"

I ended up seeing it in an old theatre for $5.  It was fine.  Better than the prequels.  Won't see it in theatres again.  Won't buy it later.  Will watch again with friends right before the next movie comes out.

I liked it more than the JJverse star trek stuff.

Quote from: NathanIW;870903I liked it more than the JJverse star trek stuff.

I said the exact same thing to my wife after we saw it.

Disney got a bargain. They will make billions and billions of dollars off of toys, glasses, novels, comics, gift items, and expensive collectibles.

Also, Lucas got a cut of ALL Disney profits as part of the deal, and both parties still made out like bandits.

Quote from: Elfdart;870773My point still stands, even if the math is a little off.

Uh... No.

First, "total budget" is not the same thing as "production budget". You've now admitted that this is true, but for some reason you still want to compare the two directly.

Second, you claim that the "total budget" bump from $200 million to $350 million is primarily due to marketing. This is also not true: It's primarily due to profit-sharing. (After adjusting for inflation, the primary reason Episode VII was more expensive to produce than TPM is because (a) Harrison Ford didn't come cheap and (b) J.J. Abrams, unlike George Lucas, doesn't won the production company.)

Finally, even if we embrace your apples-to-oranges comparisons AND we assume that AOTC and ROTS both featured $0 of publicity, we've already demonstrated that your original claim was, in fact, completely wrong.

Quote from: Elfdart;870778They didn't go their own direction, they did a limp remake of the original. Which only proves my earlier point: Disney had no use for anything original from George Lucas -they just wanted to slap his name brand on their own mediocre fan fiction, and shelled out billions to do so.

And that's still not the way accounting works. Your continued insistence that the only thing Disney is producing with the Star Wars IP is Episode VII is... bizarre.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;870943Uh... No.

First, "total budget" is not the same thing as "production budget". You've now admitted that this is true, but for some reason you still want to compare the two directly.

Second, you claim that the "total budget" bump from $200 million to $350 million is primarily due to marketing. This is also not true: It's primarily due to profit-sharing. (After adjusting for inflation, the primary reason Episode VII was more expensive to produce than TPM is because (a) Harrison Ford didn't come cheap and (b) J.J. Abrams, unlike George Lucas, doesn't won the production company.)

Bullshit. There can't be any profit-sharing when the movie had yet to be released, let alone turn a profit.

QuoteFinally, even if we embrace your apples-to-oranges comparisons AND we assume that AOTC and ROTS both featured $0 of publicity, we've already demonstrated that your original claim was, in fact, completely wrong.

No, it means my estimate for the total cost of the Prequels was off by about $60 million dollars, and your estimate for TFA was off by $150 million.

QuoteAnd that's still not the way accounting works. Your continued insistence that the only thing Disney is producing with the Star Wars IP is Episode VII is... bizarre.

Since I never even implied such a thing, let alone insisted on it, you may now take your little strawman, soak him in kerosene, set him alight and stick him way up your ass.

You really need to stop lying.

I will say this much: if it involved starfighters shooting at moving targets, it was good stuff, and Poe Dameron was the sort of character I demand out of a Star Wars film (and wish he got more time).

This was one of the best filmed dogfight sequences in the franchise's history, and while it repeated some beats from A New Hope, actually seeing an ace pilot in an ace custom show us why he's that good (and thus earned that custom fighter) is a welcome change.

Now, more of that please: less informed ability, and more demonstrated ability.

(Also, a Finn/Poe buddy flick.)

Quote from: Elfdart;870948Bullshit. There can't be any profit-sharing when the movie had yet to be released, let alone turn a profit.

The $350 million number is an estimated total including both future advertising and profit-sharing based on estimated box office revenue. That's how these numbers work.

QuoteNo, it means my estimate for the total cost of the Prequels was off by about $60 million dollars, and your estimate for TFA was off by $150 million.

Since I also estimated the total cost of TFA as $350 million, you're either claiming that the total budget of TFA is actually $500 or you're further demonstrating your complete ignorance of what the term "production budget" means.

I'm guessing it's the latter. Which is rather pathetic since the distinction between "total cost" and "production budget" has (a) been repeatedly explained to you in this thread and (b) is also explicitly called out in the NYT and Forbes articles you keep alluding to.

Quote from: Elfdart;870948

QuoteAnd that's still not the way accounting works. Your continued insistence that the only thing Disney is producing with the Star Wars IP is Episode VII is... bizarre.

Since I never even implied such a thing, let alone insisted on it, you may now take your little strawman, soak him in kerosene, set him alight and stick him way up your ass.

Huh. Well, apparently someone hacked your account and posted this:

Quote from: Elfdart;870661That's right, Disney spent over $350 million on this monument to mediocrity: more than all three Prequels combined*. Add in the costs of buying out George Lucas, and Disney has paid close to $5 billion just to slap Lucas' name, brand and IP on their own hackneyed, middling science fiction. It's basically John Carter, only with the Lucas paint job and hood ornament.

It obviously couldn't have been you posting that, of course, since you've just denied ever doing such a thing. You should probably change your password or something.

QuoteYou really need to stop lying.

... says the guy who honestly thought he could get people to believe a lie that could be trivially disproved by hitting the "previous page" button.

The combination of your ignorance, stupidity, and mendacity is truly legendary to behold here.

Here's a challenge for you: Demonstrate even the most basic understanding of film budgets with your next post.

Quote from: danbuter;870939Disney got a bargain. They will make billions and billions of dollars off of toys, glasses, novels, comics, gift items, and expensive collectibles.

Also, Lucas got a cut of ALL Disney profits as part of the deal, and both parties still made out like bandits.

Yep, he got $2.2B in cash and $2B in Disney stock.

He's not hurting for money. :D

Quote from: Justin Alexander;871013The $350 million number is an estimated total including both future advertising and profit-sharing based on estimated box office revenue. That's how these numbers work.

You will provide evidence for this claim, right?

Future advertising would be negligible, since the figure came out about a week or so before the movie itself did. As a world-wide release, it's unlikely Disney would be spending much after the film hit theaters, since they have been advertising everywhere except a few countries slated for later release. What's more, advertising in China, India, Greece and the few countries where the movie hasn't opened yet is much cheaper than in the US, Europe or Japan.

As for Harrison Ford's back-end deal, it accounts for at most a small percentage of that $150 million  (http://time.com/money/4157268/harrison-ford-salary-star-wars-1977-force-awakens/)(assuming that your claim isn't total horseshit like everything else you've written on the subject):

QuoteContrasting this to the old guard is interesting: They're being paid paid very, very handsomely, led by Harrison Ford likely making up to $34 million for The Force Awakens if (read: when) it makes $1 billion, according to the Independent.

Now, given that Variety puts Ford's base salary $10-20 million, that means Ford's profit-sharing would range from $14-24 million. Let's take the higher figure, on the assumption that TFA is going to breeze past $2 billion. Let's also assume Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher also get something on the back end for an even $50 million of profit participation. So where did the other $100 million go?

QuoteSince I also estimated the total cost of TFA as $350 million, you're either claiming that the total budget of TFA is actually $500 or you're further demonstrating your complete ignorance of what the term "production budget" means.

No, you dishonest fucktard. I included marketing costs for TFA because movies don't advertise themselves and airlines and hotels don't transport/accommodate actors and directors all over the world for free. Those are huge costs on most movies -especially Disney science fiction movies. Yet you want to pretend the Mouse isn't really paying for any of that, or that for some arbitrary reason, marketing doesn't count. Worse still, you're implying it doesn't exist.

QuoteI'm guessing it's the latter. Which is rather pathetic since the distinction between "total cost" and "production budget" has (a) been repeatedly explained to you in this thread and (b) is also explicitly called out in the NYT and Forbes articles you keep alluding to.

What a lying little shitstain you are. I'm not the one drawing a distinction. You're trying to confuse the issue by pretending that just because some of the money Disney spent on TFA wasn't spent on actually making the movie, the that means Disney didn't really spend it.

QuoteHuh. Well, apparently someone hacked your account and posted this:

Quote from: Lying FucktardAnd that's still not the way accounting works. Your continued insistence that the only thing Disney is producing with the Star Wars IP is Episode VII is... bizarre.

Quote from: ElfdartSince I never even implied such a thing, let alone insisted on it, you may now take your little strawman, soak him in kerosene, set him alight and stick him way up your ass

.

Feel free to quote where I claimed Disney was only making Episode 7, you lying twat.

Until you can do so, you can fuck right off.

Quote from: Elfdart;871115Feel free to quote where I claimed Disney was only making Episode 7, you lying twat.

You do realize that cutting the bit where I quoted you saying exactly that doesn't actually make it disappear from the post three inches above yours, right?

Quote

Quote... you're further demonstrating your complete ignorance of what the term "production budget" means. Which is rather pathetic since the distinction between "total cost" and "production budget" has (a) been repeatedly explained to you in this thread and (b) is also explicitly called out in the NYT and Forbes articles you keep alluding to.

I'm not the one drawing a distinction.

Yes. That's right. Your failure to distinguish between "production budget" and "total cost" is, in fact, one of the major reasons everything you've said here has been unmitigated bullshit.

Remember the bit where I challenged you to demonstrate even the most basic understanding of how film budgets work? You have failed the challenge.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;870950I will say this much: if it involved starfighters shooting at moving targets, it was good stuff, and Poe Dameron was the sort of character I demand out of a Star Wars film (and wish he got more time).

This was one of the best filmed dogfight sequences in the franchise's history, and while it repeated some beats from A New Hope, actually seeing an ace pilot in an ace custom show us why he's that good (and thus earned that custom fighter) is a welcome change.

Now, more of that please: less informed ability, and more demonstrated ability.

(Also, a Finn/Poe buddy flick.)

I liked it. The Death Star Planet Ripoff was a bit over the top but at least they had the actual movie characters going, "not ANOTHER superweapon!" for it.

I plan to see it again, in theaters.

Quote from: Jame Rowe;871164I liked it. The Death Star Planet Ripoff was a bit over the top but at least they had the actual movie characters going, "not ANOTHER superweapon!" for it.

Also the minor character talking about how those kinds of superweapons always have some vulnerable weak point that can be attacked was cute. Classic lampshading.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;871142You do realize that cutting the bit where I quoted you saying exactly that doesn't actually make it disappear from the post three inches above yours, right?

Since you can't quote where I claim Disney is only making Episode 7, an assertion you made, it's clear you've been caught in a lie and can't back up your claims.

QuoteYes. That's right. Your failure to distinguish between "production budget" and "total cost" is, in fact, one of the major reasons everything you've said here has been unmitigated bullshit.

Another lie on your part. I've shown that the distinction is bogus and arbitrary. Disney spent that money on the movie, whether it paid for the movie cameras, costumes, studio rentals, TV ads or junkets. You claim back-end percentages make up part of this extra $150 million. Prove it, asshole.

Or is this another claim you cant back up -which is to say another lie?

QuoteRemember the bit where I challenged you to demonstrate even the most basic understanding of how film budgets work? You have failed the challenge.

Nice try, moron. I've quoted sources that put the budget at $350 million. You've offered absolutely nothing to back up your claims. Given your track record as a liar and troll, it's easy to see why: You can't.

Concession accepted, fucktard.

Quote from: Bren;871186Also the minor character talking about how those kinds of superweapons always have some vulnerable weak point that can be attacked was cute. Classic lampshading.

During the prequels, especially Episode II, fans groused that any one of them could have written a better Star Wars movie than the guy who created Star Wars.  With Episode VII, JJ Abrams, the ultimate Star Wars fan, proved that opinion correct.


JG

If Episode II's script was exactly the same, the movie could have still been better if they would have had somebody like JJ Abrams who could have pulled some kind of performance out of the actors. Harrison Ford could have phoned it in for The Force Awakens, but JJ actually got one of his better performances from the last twenty years.

Quote from: Endless Flight;871473If Episode II's script was exactly the same, the movie could have still been better if they would have had somebody like JJ Abrams who could have pulled some kind of performance out of the actors. Harrison Ford could have phoned it in for The Force Awakens, but JJ actually got one of his better performances from the last twenty years.

Indeed.  And while Hayden Christensen was probably the worst actor of all time in Episode II, he'd done good work elsewhere.  And given that actors no less than Natalie Portman and Samuel L. Jackson (!) delivered flat performances in that movie, I really have to blame the director.

JG

From a business perspective I can hardly fault Disney or anyone else involved in the production. Their job is to print money via ticket sales and merchandising. But that doesn't negate the fact that it's a pretty mediocre movie--sure, a lot better than the prequels, maybe even better in some ways than RotJ. (Jedi suffered from too many parallel storylines in the last act.) But that's not saying much, is it?

It would probably be a little better if it wasn't a Star Wars film, or rather if the existence of the other movies didn't mean that it's (a) unoriginal and (b) often a clumsy fit for established theme and continuity. Not to mention it has internal problems similar to the Abrams Trek-verse. On the positive side, I did like the male lead (he's a good kid), the girl is okay, and yeah, the pilot is cool.

Having said that--I'm happy to have paid $6 for a matinee, and since my wife and I enjoyed the visuals, I'll try to get the 70mm IMAX showing not too far away.

Quote from: Elfdart;871244Since you can't quote

Huh. Apparently you actually believe that you can make the quote disappear by just wishing it to be so. That's... truly bizarre.

I mean, that level of self delusion dies a lot to explain all the other bullshit you've been posting, so it makes sense.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;871670Huh. Apparently you actually believe that you can make the quote disappear by just wishing it to be so. That's... truly bizarre.

I mean, that level of self delusion dies a lot to explain all the other bullshit you've been posting, so it makes sense.

So you admit you can't produce the quote or back up any of your other claims. You are such a lying little prick.

Guaranteed that it will pass Avatar for #1 all-time domestically tomorrow or Tuesday. It took 18-19 days to do what Avatar did in 238. Looks likely that it will end up around $900-950M after it's first run.

Finally saw it last night. Really enjoyed it. Definitely fit in with the originals and I found the characters a lot more enjoyable to follow than the prequel characters.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;871915Finally saw it last night. Really enjoyed it. Definitely fit in with the originals and I found the characters a lot more enjoyable to follow than the prequel characters.

Refreshing to see a main character who shows fear as well as doubt. But to be fair, Qui Gon Jinn was pretty likable (aside from his interest in that annoying slave-kid).

Quote from: Bren;871925Refreshing to see a main character who shows fear as well as doubt. But to be fair, Qui Gon Jinn was pretty likable (aside from his interest in that annoying slave-kid).

I was worried going in, but really these were the kinds of characters I was hoping to see.

Qui Gon Jinn didn't bother me in the first trilogy. I think Liam Neeson is always entertaining in movies.

The characters were infinitely better than the prequels. I was actively rooting for Rey and Fin, and really disliked Kylo.

Ewan McGregor did a really good job in the prequels. I'd love to see him do an Obi-Wan anthology movie. He recorded a few lines for The Force Awakens and he's always been up for playing Kenobi again. I've definitely read and heard that they were thinking of having ghosts return in this trilogy. I wouldn't be surprised if Hayden Christensen makes an appearance.

Quote from: Endless Flight;872016I wouldn't be surprised if Hayden Christensen makes an appearance.

NoooOooOoo! (http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com)

Quote from: danbuter;872004The characters were infinitely better than the prequels. I was actively rooting for Rey and Fin, and really disliked Kylo.

With this, I liked both Finn and Rey as well. Also liked Kylo as well...There's a real big unresolved story here... Can Kylo atone for his sins, or is he forever doomed by the choices he made here?

Also, is this just me, or did Kylo come across with a petulant Gamergate hate-on for the non-Jedi ( i.e. ...Non-Geek Jedi) that populated this movie.

Quote from: GameDaddy;872226With this, I liked both Finn and Rey as well. Also liked Kylo as well...There's a real big unresolved story here... Can Kylo atone for his sins, or is he forever doomed by the choices he made here?

Also, is this just me, or did Kylo come across with a petulant Gamergate hate-on for the non-Jedi ( i.e. ...Non-Geek Jedi) that populated this movie.

I think they may be setting Finn up as a latent force-sensitive.

And yes, Kylo comes across as petulant - and confused. I think they want him to be in order to explain why he turned to the dark side.

Quote from: GameDaddy;872226Also, is this just me, or did Kylo come across with a petulant Gamergate hate-on for the non-Jedi ( i.e. ...Non-Geek Jedi) that populated this movie.

To me he seemed more like a teenager who is affiliated with a tribe in high school. Emo Kylo Ren is something I hear a lot and I think that fits. I also think it kind of works in a weird way. A friend of mine made the observation that it feels like shows and movies have worked so hard to make complex, nuanced and sophisticated villains over the last few years, it kind of felt good to have a moody and raging villain like this. I think he is basically what happens when you take a whiny young man like Luke and add the dark side on top of hormones. I also think it is interesting that his outbursts are all against physical objects, whereas Vader's were directed at people under his command. Vader's outbursts were more less like a tantrum but actually cost lives. I expect in the next installment he may take that step too.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;872258To me he seemed more like a teenager who is affiliated with a tribe in high school. Emo Kylo Ren is something I hear a lot and I think that fits. I also think it kind of works in a weird way. A friend of mine made the observation that it feels like shows and movies have worked so hard to make complex, nuanced and sophisticated villains over the last few years, it kind of felt good to have a moody and raging villain like this. I think he is basically what happens when you take a whiny young man like Luke and add the dark side on top of hormones. I also think it is interesting that his outbursts are all against physical objects, whereas Vader's were directed at people under his command. Vader's outbursts were more less like a tantrum but actually cost lives. I expect in the next installment he may take that step too.

To me he came across as disturbed and having major control issues, super-powered narcissistic rage. In the next movie he may start secretly torturing defenseless animals.

Quote from: GameDaddy;872226With this, I liked both Finn and Rey as well. Also liked Kylo as well...There's a real big unresolved story here... Can Kylo atone for his sins, or is he forever doomed by the choices he made here?

Also, is this just me, or did Kylo come across with a petulant Gamergate hate-on for the non-Jedi ( i.e. ...Non-Geek Jedi) that populated this movie.

Gamergate? What? You looked at a well-executed example of what evil people actually are (instead of what they want you to see, which is what Vader represents), especially those not yet given over to truly homicidal impulses, and you saw Gamergate? Cuckooland called and demanded your repatriation.

Quote from: 3rik;872354To me he came across as disturbed and having major control issues, super-powered narcissistic rage. In the next movie he may start secretly torturing defenseless animals.

I don't think they'll go the animal torturing direction. I certainly hope they don't because I feel like we've had too many villains with diagnosable psychological disorders in the last ten to fifteen years. Also animal torture isn't something I'd be too keen on seeing in a star wars film. As much as I like characters like Tony Soprano, I was kind of enjoying him just being a raging villain because the Dark Side is overwhelming him.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;872364I don't think they'll go the animal torturing direction. I certainly hope they don't because I feel like we've had too many villains with diagnosable psychological disorders in the last ten to fifteen years. Also animal torture isn't something I'd be too keen on seeing in a star wars film. As much as I like characters like Tony Soprano, I was kind of enjoying him just being a raging villain because the Dark Side is overwhelming him.

I wasn't being serious on the animal torture part and I'd definitely not want to see it in a Star Wars film! :)

I think it was a great Star Wars film, true to the original trilogy, well written and well executed. It didn't blow my mind like Mad Max did, though, because it's too much of an Episode IV clone, but again, I was glad I saw it, and it definitely got me onboard to see Ep. VIII. I liked the characters a lot, I liked how they treated Solo and Leia, and it felt Star Wars again, unlike Ep. I-III.

Quote from: Bren;871925Refreshing to see a main character who shows fear as well as doubt. But to be fair, Qui Gon Jinn was pretty likable (aside from his interest in that annoying slave-kid).

And his tolerance of Jar Jar binks.
And how they forgot the example of how Alec Guinness demonstrated what a Jedi could be like.

But ya, it's possible to find a few likable things in the Prequels. And in The Force Awakens.

But... they had millions and  millions and millions of dollars. None of them should have had such bad continuity, nor been so mindless and well, outright dumb. Nor so unimaginatively written. Nor so lacking in talent.

Quote from: Kiero;810276If anyone is wondering why this is a big deal (and I think it is, provided they use these guys), have a look at the final fight scene of The Raid 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0dtVGwRVeY) (starts around 5:30). Compare and contrast that to the shitty, boring 12-minute-long lightsaber fight at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

Did they hire the guys who choreographed and filmed that fight scene as well? Cause... actors aren't usually the ones coming up with that stuff.

Saw it, disliked it.  To me its not appreciably better than the prequels, it just fails for entirely different reasons.  If nothing else, it proves to me that JJ Abrams is an over-hyped moppet without any sense as a storyteller.  Here he doesn't have the excuse that was trotted out for the Star Trek films that he'd rather be doing Star Wars.

Plot? What plot?  

Things just happen. There isn't a plot, just a series of random events that are roughly connected by having the same people be involved.  Character motivations are either non-sensical, spurious or entirely driven by 'plot demands'.  What is Kylo Ren's motivation? Well, the movie needs a  bad guy.  Why do Finn and Rey like each other? Well, the movie needs them to want to be buddies.  Why does Han Solo show up when he does? Because... we paid Harrison Ford a lot of money to be in this film, damnit.

Oh look: The bad guys have a giant planet destroying super weapon which they fire at a populated world.

No literally, that just happens.  Billions dead with no build up, no foreshadowing, and really no reason at all except to demonstrate that, yes, the Empire blows up worlds for fun.

The most offensive example may be the very first, and perhaps the subtlest.  Leaving aside Poe, the movie opens with Finn the stormtrooper. Despite a lifetime of indoctrination and training he suddenly decides he doesn't want to be a Stormtrooper anymore.  There is a moment when a fellow stormtrooper has just been shot in front of him (by Poe, in fact), where the camera gets all over cranked, and we can feel his sudden awareness of how fucked up his life is. He refuses to shoot the villagers, Kylo Ren takes particular notice of him and he does the unthinkable. He rebels.

Then they talk about an awakening in the Force.

Who awakened?

Why... Rey, the girl who hasn't done a god damn thing different from any other day, that's who.  

This isn't just events happening for no reason, this is events happening against every grain of the plot thus far, in defiance of all coherence and plot.    

Never mind that as the movie goes on Finn increasingly goes from a trained Stormtrooper to a hapless bumbling idiot, only as important to the "plot" as the Bothan Spies from A New Hope. You know: The ones only mentioned once or twice and never seen.  

I had a hope the movie might have redeemed itself slightly when Finn takes up the lightsaber to fight Kylo Ren.  Given that Rey had been given every single heroic trait denied Finn throughout the movie, I thought dividing up the usual skills of the jedi (sword fighting and magic fu) between the two characters would be an interesting twist. But no... Finn is a plucky comic relief sidekick given major protagonist screen time.  

I could make a snarky remark about the progressive stack here, but frankly I'm more interested in just how irritating the movie got as it wore on than I am about identity politics.

Its a bad thing when Micheal Fucking Bay is better about setting up major plot points and giving his characters 'things to do'.

That aside I do wish Abrams made up his mind if he wanted to slavishly follow the tropes and traditions of A New Hope or to subvert them.  The constant waffling between homage and near-satire was jarring.  What am I talking about? In the shortest of shorthands: Kylo Ren and his On-Again, Off-Again Darth Vader helmet.  Also: How fucking heavy is that damn thing? Is there any room inside it for his glorious locks of sable hair, much less his actual head?  

Anyway, as I've decided to keep this non-spoilerific, there ya go.  

Final Summation: its a more enjoyable miserable failure of a movie than A Phantom Menace, but its much less deep than Revenge of the Sith.  It is much better acted for the MOST part, but utterly incoherent.




PS: Also:

"Hey, we need to go capture a beach ball droid. Should we send in some stormtroopers?"

"Nah. Just send in the Tie Fighters. They look cooler."

Quote from: Spike;872760The most offensive example may be the very first, and perhaps the subtlest.  Leaving aside Poe, the movie opens with Finn the stormtrooper. Despite a lifetime of indoctrination and training he suddenly decides he doesn't want to be a Stormtrooper anymore.

As later revealed,

Spoiler

his previous assignment was in sanitation. He possibly never shot anyone before, nor saw anyone get shot.

Not sure if that makes it better or worse.

QuoteNever mind that as the movie goes on Finn increasingly goes from a trained Stormtrooper to a hapless bumbling idiot

He actually hits things he aims a blaster at; that already makes him better than pretty much every Stormtrooper ever. Probably the more effective forms of Empire/First Order conditioning for Stormtroopers also destroy their ability to aim. Or else nobody can see out of those helmets.

Quote from: Spike;872760Also: How fucking heavy is that damn thing? Is there any room inside it for his glorious locks of sable hair, much less his actual head?  

His glorious locks are protected by the dark side of the force.

Fantastic movie. I even enjoyed the heavy borrowing from the original trilogy.

Can we have an X-Wing squadron movie with Poe Dameron, please?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;872777His glorious locks are protected by the dark side of the force.

That might explain why his boss is bald...

I quite agree with Spike's review.

Quote from: Spike;872760This isn't just events happening for no reason, this is events happening against every grain of the plot thus far, in defiance of all coherence and plot.

Yeah, this was JJ's last chance for me. I'm convinced his defining feature is being anti-continuity. Since I'm very continuity-oriented, this makes him one of my least favorite directors ever, especially since he excretes all over Trek and Star Wars. I wish they'd just had him make his own sci fi films.

Quote from: Skarg;873137I quite agree with Spike's review.



Yeah, this was JJ's last chance for me. I'm convinced his defining feature is being anti-continuity. Since I'm very continuity-oriented, this makes him one of my least favorite directors ever, especially since he excretes all over Trek and Star Wars. I wish they'd just had him make his own sci fi films.

I likes the movie in the cinema but as I think about it I get increasingly annoyed by it.

There are very easy ways that he most egregious plotholes/deus-ex-machina could have been avoided and the plot path would have still been moreorless the same.
For me the worst were
i) Solo finding the Falcon immediately wtf - easily fixed if in order to escape they hit the hyperdrive and ended up being pushed to a set destination (probably round Maz's planet) then Solo picks up a beacon and can show up to claim his ship.
ii) The Starkiller base is so bad that it is having a Jar-Jar effect on me, to whit initially you gloss over it but it just keeps on bugging me and bugging me and bugging me. They could have picked any mega weapon but went for one that drains the power of its own sun and then fires hyperdriven energy beams across the galaxy WTF. for the heroes all the planets are visible from the ground and they all explode at the same time. The writers not only have a knowledge of physics that fails at the primary school level their knowledge of geology is soooooooo awful that the planet the weapon if built into .....AHHHH. of all the choices they could have made in a 20 minute brainstorming session they simply picked the worse one.

Quote from: Skarg;873137Yeah, this was JJ's last chance for me. I'm convinced his defining feature is being anti-continuity. Since I'm very continuity-oriented, this makes him one of my least favorite directors ever, especially since he excretes all over Trek and Star Wars.

A friend of mine, referring to Lost and some other newer series, describes his style of writing as improvisational... that it's more about what seems cool in the moment than adhering to some pre-outlined structure. Just write 'straight ahead' and don't bother yourself too much about where you came from or where you're going.

QuoteI wish they'd just had him make his own sci fi films.

Wasn't that what Cloverfield was?

Quote from: jibbajibba;873185I likes the movie in the cinema but as I think about it I get increasingly annoyed by it.

There are very easy ways that he most egregious plotholes/deus-ex-machina could have been avoided and the plot path would have still been moreorless the same.

Exactly. I don't see any gain for making it not make sense, and it would be easy to fix - it's like he really doesn't care, has no clue about continuity, or he actively dislikes things making sense.

QuoteFor me the worst were
i) Solo finding the Falcon immediately wtf - easily fixed if in order to escape they hit the hyperdrive and ended up being pushed to a set destination (probably round Maz's planet) then Solo picks up a beacon and can show up to claim his ship.

Yep, exactly. And that's just one example of the same problem - somehow the whole galaxy is a place where anyone finds anyone and attacks them in the next ten minutes. I wonder where Luke is? Let's all go to this one wasteland planet and chase one droid - wait, why? Then after Han finds the Falcon, one half-conversation later, two different bounty hunter groups also show up? Oh goo, escaped that to another planet... that's good for another half-conversation before both the New Kids On The Block Empire and the New Rebel Resistance both show up... and then NO TIME TO LOSE before that's even over TIME TO DESTROY SOME RANDOM PLANETS - any need to know what those planets are or why they're being destroyed? Nah! Oh, look, we can see them in the sky, even though they are not even in the same star system, because basic astronomy is for people who think, and that's not wanted around here. Ok, so what's next? Well clearly the Resistance Rebellion Whatever has all its forces in one immobile location that the New Kids Empire knows about and will attack in the next half-hour, and so clearly we need to blow up that planet first. The part about using an entire star to fire is just for drama, so who cares that it must be able to move to a new star, because if we cared then how the fuck would we know where it went to launch the next attack? Good thing we have two new adolescent strangers and Han and Chewie, so that makes FOUR whole commandos we can send. No real plan needed. And we've got a whole dozen X-Wings we can send too - that should be enough against one of those stupid death-star-things.

It's like listening to a five-year old tell you the plot of a movie they "saw" that they are just making up, except the five-year-old is more original and interesting.

Quoteii) The Starkiller base is so bad that it is having a Jar-Jar effect on me, to whit initially you gloss over it but it just keeps on bugging me and bugging me and bugging me. They could have picked any mega weapon but went for one that drains the power of its own sun and then fires hyperdriven energy beams across the galaxy WTF. for the heroes all the planets are visible from the ground and they all explode at the same time. The writers not only have a knowledge of physics that fails at the primary school level their knowledge of geology is soooooooo awful that the planet the weapon if built into .....AHHHH. of all the choices they could have made in a 20 minute brainstorming session they simply picked the worse one.

Yep! Exactly, and you may have missed that the planets they saw blowing up aren't even supposed to be in their star system. . . .

Quote from: Simlasa;873199A friend of mine, referring to Lost and some other newer series, describes his style of writing as improvisational... that it's more about what seems cool in the moment than adhering to some pre-outlined structure. Just write 'straight ahead' and don't bother yourself too much about where you came from or where you're going.

Wasn't that what Cloverfield was?

I didn't realize Cloverfield (which I haven't seen) was JJ. Maybe the first-person perspective is best for him. Or the drug-induced-haze first-person perspective...

I don't think the plot holes in Force Awakening were any worse than the plot holes in the original trilogy. I just watched all three again the other night and it has plenty of odd coincidences and plot bumps because they help move the action along and keep things interesting. Not to mention it is obvious throughout that Lucas never intended Vader to be the father and he never intended Luke and Leia to be brother/sister. An action adventure like that is going to have some holes in the plot if you think about it too hard. It is corny flash gordon stuff and supposed to be a soap opera in space. So I think people are taking the new movie a little too seriously. I never watched the new Star Trek movies because they looked too Star Wars like for me. And with Star Trek I expect a much different approach. But this is a film where it seems like a good fit. For Star Wars, this was way better than the prequels, and even a little better than a New Hope.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873323An action adventure like that is going to have some holes in the plot if you think about it too hard. It is corny flash gordon stuff and supposed to be a soap opera in space. So I think people are taking the new movie a little too seriously.

I agree.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873323For Star Wars, this was way better than the prequels, and even a little better than a New Hope.

What!?! Die heretic!

Quote from: Bren;873328What!?! Die heretic!

I don't think that may people would share my assessment, but I personally I always found New Hope the least entertaining in the first trilogy (largely because I was born in 1976 and the first Star Wars movie I saw in the theater was Return of the Jedi when it came out). So for me Empire is my favorite, Followed by Jedi and the Force Awakens (and I am debating which one I like better between the two), then A New Hope.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873323An action adventure like that is going to have some holes in the plot if you think about it too hard.

Ideally you should have to think to see those plot holes.

There are times when this movie slaps you in the face with them.


Of course, I am increasingly of the opinion that the original movies did so very well because they weren't trying to be light hearted kiddie fare.  Empire is fucking GRIM, and A New Hope actually took its sci-fi premise seriously, which was pretty unique for the era.  Sure, the science is shoddy, with amazing amounts of handwavium scattered over the landscape.

But The Farce Awakens doesn't even bother with the Handwavium, much less science... shoddy or not.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873331I don't think that may people would share my assessment, but I personally I always found New Hope the least entertaining in the first trilogy (largely because I was born in 1976 and the first Star Wars movie I saw in the theater was Return of the Jedi when it came out). So for me Empire is my favorite, Followed by Jedi and the Force Awakens (and I am debating which one I like better between the two), then A New Hope.

Empire is, I think, the popular favorite as well as the critics favorite for best episode in the series so you aren't in a minority. Being ancient in comparison to your relative youth, I had the benefit of seeing Star Wars when it first came out in the summer of 1977 on the Glenwood Theater's big screen. The Star Destroyer flying overhead was as unforgettable as John Williams' score. Besides which, I actually like movies with a happy ending.

Quote from: Spike;873336Ideally you should have to think to see those plot holes.

There are times when this movie slaps you in the face with them.


Of course, I am increasingly of the opinion that the original movies did so very well because they weren't trying to be light hearted kiddie fare.  Empire is fucking GRIM, and A New Hope actually took its sci-fi premise seriously, which was pretty unique for the era.  Sure, the science is shoddy, with amazing amounts of handwavium scattered over the landscape.

But The Farce Awakens doesn't even bother with the Handwavium, much less science... shoddy or not.

I don't know Spike. As a kid I was really into hard science fiction. I like Star Wars but I don't think it takes its sic-fi premise all that seriously. It is a soap opera, with Samurai and a supernatural power, set in space. I think it took its source material seriously though.

Quote from: Bren;873337Empire is, I think, the popular favorite as well as the critics favorite for best episode in the series so you aren't in a minority. Being ancient in comparison to your relative youth, I had the benefit of seeing Star Wars when it first came out in the summer of 1977 on the Glenwood Theater's big screen. The Star Destroyer flying overhead was as unforgettable as John Williams' score. Besides which, I actually like movies with a happy ending.

And I can appreciate that. I Understand that my experience was shaded by Jedi being my first Star Wars film. I would agree on the score. As far as I am concerned, that is what sets it apart from so many other movies. The way it uses music brings all the elements together.

Quote from: Spike;873336But The Farce Awakens doesn't even bother with the Handwavium, much less science... shoddy or not.

Like I said before I don't think the original trilogy was all that different in terms of plot holes and the science. Lucas always seemed way more interested in the cultures and the camp than in smoothing out the rough patches in the plot. If anything what makes Star Wars so great is the Soap Opera aspect, which embraces that stuff because you can do things like suddenly make the Hero and Princess brother and sister even though they kissed in the previous movie. Or you can make the bad guy the hero's father, even though it is pretty clear he was meant to be the guy who killed his father when he appeared in the first film. Heck, Lucas didn't even attempt to clean that stuff up in any of the revisions. He could easily have removed the scene where Leia kisses Luke.

I  may not have expressed that right. What I mean is that it is a serious film.

I agree that it is far more space opera than science fiction, both falling under the aegis 'Sci-Fi', but it takes itself seriously.  

Shall I list off the bullet points?

The dirty/lived in feel to most of the sets and props
The wanton murder of the Lars family and random Jawas
The murder of Alderaan is the central crux of the plot*
Torture probes**

The list goes on. Even Jawas, which are short and ostensibly 'cute' aren't played with any real cuteness, but almost as verminous.  

This may be indicative of a greater sickness in modern film making, where only 'real serious drama' films may be considered 'serious' while anything with a hint of action is considered some sort of popcorn flick, and never the twain shall meet, but that is neither here nor there. Compared to this newest Star Wars the difference in tone is palpable, and to the detriment of us all. Even the five year olds, who are ill served by treating them as incapable of caring.


* Contrast this with the introduction without any foreshadowing of the Starkiller, and the sudden 'death' of five worlds, none of which are named or apparently relevant to the plot, and the only reason we, the Audience, are asked to care is a few split second shots of crowds staring up at the sky in horror.  A New Hope treated the destruction of Alderaan as an unprecedented horror, with real impact to the characters. The Farce Awakens treated it as 'The Empire being all evil an' shit again, lol'.

** This may be spotty. Plenty of light hearted, unserious fare has included torture and torture devices as somewhat comical and unserious.  Still, compare and contrast the handling of the interrogator probe in A New Hope, or the torture of Han Solo in Empire (screams of pain, people looking away even though they aren't in the same room, etc), with TFA, where its all pointing hands and funny face making.... you know, every hero gets tortured these days. They call it Tuesday.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873349Like I said before I don't think the original trilogy was all that different in terms of plot holes and the science. .

Just for the record what are the major plot holes in A New Hope, from your perspective?  

As for science: I agree science tends to get short shrift in Space Opera, including Star Wars.  

Where we disagree here however is that in A New Hope there was some decent handwaving at science as understood by the layman. The Deathstar having to round the gas giant in order to fire on its moon, for example, or Alderaan leaving an asteroid belt behind.

The Force Awakens couldn't be bothered with even that much, to its serious detriment.  TFA can't be bothered with the understanding of science of a reasonably sensible child. An entire galaxy is reduced to the orbit over Jakku/Tattoine.

Quote from: Spike;873354I  may not have expressed that right. What I mean is that it is a serious film.

I agree that it is far more space opera than science fiction, both falling under the aegis 'Sci-Fi', but it takes itself seriously.  

Shall I list off the bullet points?

The dirty/lived in feel to most of the sets and props
The wanton murder of the Lars family and random Jawas
The murder of Alderaan is the central crux of the plot*
Torture probes**

The list goes on. Even Jawas, which are short and ostensibly 'cute' aren't played with any real cuteness, but almost as verminous.

I would honestly need to watch the Force Awakens again to check the tone consistency throughout. In terms of Grime, it seemed okay to me. But to me it had the same blend of humor and darkness that the original trilogy did. When I think star wars the first thing that leaps to mind are 3-CPO and R2-D2 bickering and and Luke getting his hand cut off. This movie opened with the empire doing some pretty nasty stuff and then a bloody streak on a storm troopers helmet (which to me felt pretty dark for star wars). I won't give away the ending, but that ending....that was pretty grim too.

QuoteThis may be indicative of a greater sickness in modern film making, where only 'real serious drama' films may be considered 'serious' while anything with a hint of action is considered some sort of popcorn flick, and never the twain shall meet, but that is neither here nor there. Compared to this newest Star Wars the difference in tone is palpable, and to the detriment of us all. Even the five year olds, who are ill served by treating them as incapable of caring.

My sense is films have always swayed back and forth between seriousness and grit. It is  a little hard to tell what kind of era your in when your in the middle of it (the 80s seemed a lot less corny to me when I was living through it, and the 90s seemed a lot less cringe worthy at the time). I do sometimes get the sense that films are not serious enough. But again this had the level of humor I expect in Star Wars and the level of seriousness. Just go back and watch A New Hope again, I guarantee you it has a bunch of little moments that stand out as too light for the surrounding action (for example Leia blasting a hole in the death star wall and shouting the boys into he garbage shoot). Those scenes all work, but they are popcorn moments for sure.

Quote* Contrast this with the introduction without any foreshadowing of the Starkiller, and the sudden 'death' of five worlds, none of which are named or apparently relevant to the plot, and the only reason we, the Audience, are asked to care is a few split second shots of crowds staring up at the sky in horror.  A New Hope treated the destruction of Alderaan as an unprecedented horror, with real impact to the characters. The Farce Awakens treated it as 'The Empire being all evil an' shit again, lol'.

But they blew up the republic in that scene and we saw the people witness the blasts coming to do them in. I can't say I had any particular attachment to Alderaan when it got blown up in the first movie, but that scene where you see the people witness destruction coming to their planet in the new movie, definitely put me in their shoes.

I felt they treated it in this movie the way Alderaan was treated in the first one: it happened, the characters reacted, there was a disturbance in the force, but they efficiently moved on because they had a story to tell (it wasn't like they reflected much on the loss of Alderaan after the fact aside from one or two throw-away lines of dialog).

I do think the moment when Obi-Wan senses the destruction of Alderaan is very iconic, and really encapsulates the heart of the film. So the first one has that advantage (it both gets at the destruction of Alderaan but also shows you something about the force). But that is a classic moment. Those are hard to repeat.

Quote** This may be spotty. Plenty of light hearted, unserious fare has included torture and torture devices as somewhat comical and unserious.  Still, compare and contrast the handling of the interrogator probe in A New Hope, or the torture of Han Solo in Empire (screams of pain, people looking away even though they aren't in the same room, etc), with TFA, where its all pointing hands and funny face making.... you know, every hero gets tortured these days. They call it Tuesday.

I wouldn't have been averse to them using torture in the film. I think it would have been fitting. My take though was it was because Kylo Ren still wasn't as bad or willing to go that far as Vader (which is why he smashes objects and not people when he gets bad news).

That said, I don't know the lack of torture made it a bad or worse film than the originals.

There's two things The Force Awakens did not do that I'm sure some people might miss:

1. No burp jokes.

2. Chewbacca didn't do a Tarzan impression at any point in the movie.

Quote from: Spike;873357Just for the record what are the major plot holes in A New Hope, from your perspective?  

I don't think either the old or new trilogy had significant plot holes, but they both have a bunch of tiny things that wouldn't fly in a more serious film. The conceit of it being a soap opera is what makes that all okay in my mind. I wasn't singling out A New Hope in particular. Many of the big inconsistencies in the first trilogy arise over the course of all three movies (like Luke and Leia kissing but being brother and sister and the whole deal with Vader obviously not being Anakin in the first movie).

But A New Hope has flaws too. First, everything in the plot is just so...convenient (kind of like some of your complaints about Force Awakens). I really noticed this the other night when I rematched it. Everything from Luke just having to go out and and getting attacked by Sand People when his family is getting murdered to the Death Star having that one little weak spot that blows the whole thing up to the empire (which knows fully about droids) just letting the escape pod go without shooting it down in the beginning of the film.

But there are bunch of little things too, like the whole way the rebels have to fly through that long trench dramatically to hit the exhaust port, but for some reason they can't just fly directly to that spot (both the trench and the areas beyond the trench appear to have defenses and turrets so I just never got that). R2-D2 has these little swivel caster wheels or something (whatever they are, they don't seem much better than the wheels on my desk chair), yet he can roam over sand dunes and all kinds of terrain (in Empire he even seems to get around swampland). They establish clearly in the dialogue that storm troopers are precise shots (and we see evidence of this as well during the dialogue) then they go on to miss EVERYTHING they shoot.

Why on earth Obi-Wan waited until a crisis when Luke was 19 to even start training him. This makes a little more sense if it is just a New Hope, but in light of the rest of the trilogy, it makes very little sense.

The whole plot thread where they put a homing device on the Millennium Falcon to track it with their actual death star seemed quite reckless. Plus Leia appeared to know they were tracking them so why would she allow the Falcon to lead the Empire to the rebels?

Most of these things have some after the fact logic to them. Here may be a few hand waves as well (but a hand wave really isn't much better than just not addressing it). When I watched The Force Awakens I saw a lot of convenient coincidences like I saw in A New Hope, and I saw some things that were not fully explained but clearly meant to be explained later. I didn't see anything that rose beyond the level of inconsistency and illogic of the first trilogy.

Flaws in the trilogy: There were plenty of logic flaws, oddly coincidental events and silly things that strained credulity in the whole trilogy. Why on earth does Luke Skywalker keep his real last name and why doesn't Vader seem to figure out who he is until the Empire Strikes back (the reason is they made it up as they went, which they viewer can discern). The Luke Leia Kiss, why does Han never pay Jabba the money at the end of A New Hope or before Hoth. He clearly has the money as his reward and it is just a matter of getting it to him. I realize they do address that in the beginning of Empire but it is such a hand wave and it just makes no sense that this really important guy in the rebellion wouldn't get a hand from them getting that money to the mob. The whole bit in Jedi with Han accidentally knocking Bobba Fett off the barge while he is blind? Ewoks taking out Storm Troopers with slings and rocks? The whole Tarzan howl from Chewey. Jedi ends with a second Death Star. I don't see this as a problem personally, but one of the big complaints about Force Awakens is it is basically a rehash of Jedi and A New Hope. But given that 2 out of 3 of the original trilogy films relied on the same plot device, I don't see the issue with employing it again.

QuoteAs for science: I agree science tends to get short shrift in Space Opera, including Star Wars.  

Where we disagree here however is that in A New Hope there was some decent handwaving at science as understood by the layman. The Deathstar having to round the gas giant in order to fire on its moon, for example, or Alderaan leaving an asteroid belt behind.

The Force Awakens couldn't be bothered with even that much, to its serious detriment.  TFA can't be bothered with the understanding of science of a reasonably sensible child. An entire galaxy is reduced to the orbit over Jakku/Tattoine.

I may have missed it or not understand what part of the film the galaxy bit refers to; can clarify that?

Between the two films though (a new hope and the force awakens) they both seemed to play just as loose with science. I mean there is no attempt to explain things like the way gravity works in the Death Star. Leaving an asteroid belt behind does't really strike me as all that sciency (it just seems like what a typical director would assume would happen when you destroy a planet). That is more just cause and effect being in play than any worry about science. I mean, I love star wars, but one of its great joys is it isn't beholden to scientific explanations. But if you read any Hard Science fiction most of the stuff that happened in star wars wouldn't fly (and a line here or there, or an occasional nod to science there, really doesn't do much to fix that).

But to me none of these things are a problem. The Star Wars movies are soap operas in space, with corny plots, a weird mix of humor and seriousness, stupid one liners, writing that is clearly making it up as it goes along, etc. But despite all that it is one of the most impactful series of movies I've eve seen. None of that drags it down because all of it is part of the core conceit and it gives primacy to emotion, cool plot twists, myth, and spectacular action/adventure.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873469The Star Wars movies are soap operas in space, with corny plots, a weird mix of humor and seriousness, stupid one liners, writing that is clearly making it up as it goes along, etc. But despite all that it is one of the most impactful series of movies I've eve seen. None of that drags it down because all of it is part of the core conceit and it gives primacy to emotion, cool plot twists, myth, and spectacular action/adventure.

I prefer the term space opera for shows set in space and horse opera for shows set in the American West. That goes double for Star Wars since it wasn't trying to sell any soap.;) And I have to say that the operatic conceit of the John Williams score with it's leitmotifs is what carries and delivers 90% of the film's emotional impact. Watching Star Wars without the music would be even less impressive than watching Jaws* without the music.


*I'm referencing a documentary that contrasted Jaws with and without the score. The difference was stunning. With music - tense and dramatic. Without music - just a mechanical fish.

Quote from: Bren;873474I prefer the term space opera for shows set in space and horse opera for shows set in the American West. That goes double for Star Wars since it wasn't trying to sell any soap.;) And I have to say that the operatic conceit of the John Williams score with it's leitmotifs is what carries and delivers 90% of the film's emotional impact. Watching Star Wars without the music would be even less impressive than watching Jaws* without the music.


*I'm referencing a documentary that contrasted Jaws with and without the score. The difference was stunning. With music - tense and dramatic. Without music - just a mechanical fish.

I agree 100% that Williams score carries most of the films emotional impact. That was honestly one of my only disappointments in the New Trilogy...the new Leitmotifs didn't stand out as memorably as the original ones (though that may just be a product of them being new and less familiar to my ear). I'm hoping on my second viewing the music resonates more.

Now that you mention it, while I vaguely recall hearing some thematic music that was new, it wasn't memorable in a leaving the theater with a lietmotif echoing in my head way. The themes from the original films, especially the first two really stuck in my mind after even a single viewing. But there was a lot going on action-wise in some scenes this time so I'll have to see what I notice about the music on rewatching.

Quote from: Spike;873336Ideally you should have to think to see those plot holes.

There are times when this movie slaps you in the face with them.


Of course, I am increasingly of the opinion that the original movies did so very well because they weren't trying to be light hearted kiddie fare.  Empire is fucking GRIM, and A New Hope actually took its sci-fi premise seriously, which was pretty unique for the era.  Sure, the science is shoddy, with amazing amounts of handwavium scattered over the landscape.

But The Farce Awakens doesn't even bother with the Handwavium, much less science... shoddy or not.

Exactly.

There just seems to be a surprisingly (to me) large number of people who are not sensitive to continuity problems (or even not making sense), even very intelligent ones like BedrockBrandon. But for people who do notice, it can be a big deal. For me, I have little or no ability to ignore serious continuity problems - they detonate my ability to follow a story, unless it's a dream sequence, surreal universe, animal antics cartoon, or parody/wacky comedy.

I'm so glad you're here, Spike. I was about to go on a crazed rant, and now it can at least be a lot shorter. ;-)

Quote from: Spike;873354... Compared to this newest Star Wars the difference in tone is palpable, and to the detriment of us all. Even the five year olds, who are ill served by treating them as incapable of caring.

Yes! I was 9 in 1977, and appreciated the bejeezus out of the seriousness. I still appreciate it. I can still buy into all of Episode IV, and I am a very hard-to-satisfy fellow.

Quote from: Spike;873357...The Force Awakens couldn't be bothered with even that much, to its serious detriment.  TFA can't be bothered with the understanding of science of a reasonably sensible child. An entire galaxy is reduced to the orbit over Jakku/Tattoine.

Exactly. And having everything relevant to the plot (Jakku system, the New Republic capital system, the forest/lake/bar planet system, and Starkiller Base system) be jammed into the same effective action space, it screws up expectations for the whole franchise. Now instead of being in an enormous galaxy, it makes nearly zero difference what star system you are in - both sides just know what's going on in everyplace relevant immediately, can go there and destroy planets anywhere relevant immediately.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873469...
I may have missed it or not understand what part of the film the galaxy bit refers to; can clarify that? ...

So, in A New Hope, when the Falcon flies from Tatooine to Alderaan, it may seem convenient that they run into the Death Star. But there is a reason for it that makes some sense. Notice that the trip actually takes some time, during which they have time to talk about non-emergency things, do some training, etc - it's not a 20-second trip. They're trying to get to Leia on her home planet, because of R2D2, who Leia sent when she was captured by Vader at Tatooine. Vader then decides to try to extort the Rebel base location from Leia by using Alderaan (her home planet) as a hostage. Seeing her helpless in that situation is much more than just "a few throw away lines". And it makes sense then that the Falcon shows up at about the same time. So there is a reason why, in a huge galaxy, these people end up in the same place. Then, the whole escape from the Death Star with "storm troopers suddenly can't hit anything" is actually explained by Leia later, when she says something like "Our escape was far too easy. They let us escape. We're being tracked." Guess what? Vader put a tracking device on the ship, and gave orders to let them escape, to lead them to the Rebel base, because it is a CRUCIAL issue that they somehow need to find it in a way that makes some actual sense. Just like it is also a crucial issue that the Rebels need to get the Death Star plans to the Rebels, in order for them to find a way to destroy it. Leia chooses to go to the base anyway, also in a gambit to have an opportunity to destroy the Death Star, because it will be coming to the base in great haste (instead of with 30 Star Destroyers in a planned attack) and because the battle will happen before the Imperials also have more time to analyse and find the weakness (which in fact they do during the battle of Yavin, so good thing she had them lead the Death Star to the Rebel base).

Notice how all that makes some degree of sense, and makes the events relevant and dependent on each other in ways that make some sense, and notice how the situation gives the reasons in ways that make some sense. The vastness of the galaxy means there are some delays and difficulty in finding things and organizing attacks and so on.

Compare to The Force Awakens:

The Falcon escapes Jakku, and before Finn and Rey can finish one short conversation, HAN SOLO shows up in deep space. Then they have time for half a conversation when suddenly two groups of bounty hunters show up at the same point and appear down the hallway from them before they can do anything else. To me this is obvious extreme time/space bending by the writer/director, because he wants a breathless plot, at the expense of throwing out the logic that a ship in deep space might be damn impossible to find, or at least not immediately. And that even if there is some broadcasting device on the Falcon, it would take time for its signal to be received and responded to, and even if not, Han Solo, super-experienced dude, would know others were looking too and would at least have a way to be warned if someone else showed up, and it should also take time and give warnings when someone else boards, and the boarders would not immediately just be right there down the hall from him. To me these are all massive continuity underminings.

Han, having just been reminded that others can track and immediately show up at the Falcon, makes no effort to find and remove the tracking. Instead he goes where a "friend" is and fails to expect an immediate attack. He doesn't hide in an asteroid or other relatively safe location, or anything. He walks far away from the Falcon and sits down for a cozy drink and doesn't warn anyone. So lame. So effectively again, the Empire and Rebels (with stupidly changed names) appear at about the same time - the same timing that might be expected as if they were all in the same system.

Then, worst of all, only a few minutes after somehow a few X-Wings manage to drive off a Star Destroyer since natch they're happy having captured a teenage girl, they look up and see a barely-mentioned-before set of planets being destroyed, pretty much just for the dramatic reason of saying "ooh they have a Death Star version 3.0 - oh noes anonymous people died!" in as brief a way as possible. But when bewildered fans do Internet research later to find out who the heck those dead people were, etc., we find that that temporary New Republic capital and its moon planets or whatever WERE IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STAR SYSTEM MANY MANY LIGHT YEARS AWAY even though Leia (because mirroring New Hope scene but in superficial way) etc just get to see them blowing up spectacularly in the sky, because JJ want a cool dramatic effect and doesn't know or doesn't care that it makes no sense that the event would be visible there in any way. Again, it's like it's all in the same system, and would make more sense if it were. It's as if JJ's ignorance/apathy is reducing the galaxy to a single star system, effectively.

Then in the "rebel base versus Starkiller base" situation, again they are not anywhere near each other in the galaxy, but they find themselves in a first-strike race, again in no way that makes sense. It's pretty clearly just because they are mindlessly mirroring the plot of a New Hope, but they threw out the parts that made the plot sequence of that film make any sense. That is:

* How many strikes does Han get? He knows the Falcon is trackable, but they fly it to the Rebel Base anyway. I assume this would be how the One Direction (er New Order?) know where the Rebel base is to target it? Either that or they just know. Again, it seems like there is no particular effort needed to know where something is. The logical effect of a huge galaxy is gone. No pretense of having a reason how they know where it is, or trying to avoid that, or anything, is present IIRC. Again, it's like they may as well all be in the same system.

* Meanwhile, how silly is the Resistance to again have everything on one vital ground base that they can't evacuate when threatened? In A New Hope and Empire, they evacuate what they can - here they don't even seem to bother. Even without a planet-buster, having a crucial ground base is silly if the enemy has a significant fleet. So this is pretty stupid.

* Also, the (ridiculous in so so many ways) Starkiller (lol) Base sucks up stars for ammo (omg how stupid, and was there something insufficient about a Death Star weapon? and so (moment of logic not mentioned in film) can move from star to star. So... how the heck does the Resistance know where it is? And why doesn't it hyperjump to someplace else to launch its next attack, to avoid the Resistance knowing where it is? Because that level of thinking is apparently vastly too sentient for JJ. Conclusion: giant logic vacuum. Again, it's as if everything were in one system, because all logical consequences of being in different systems have been removed.

* Similarly for the Starkiller (groan) Base's weapon being able to send multiple guided hyperspacing planet-destroying glowy-death-tendrils across the galaxy to anywhere before anyone who is not a major character can react or run or anything - this too reduces the effect of galactic distances to essentially one system.

* Similar to Han hyperjumping in perfect sync with Starkiller Base's flickering shield system, even though he is coming from another system so how would he have any data to sync with? Again ignoring logical effects of being in different systems.

* Why were Poe and Emo Badguy lookin' for Luke on Jakku at the same moment? No effort to even make up a reason. Again, it's like there's  only one place in the galaxy - the current plot focus place.


Compare the relatively frequent use of the word "because" in my notes on A New Hope, to the only uses of that word for The Force Awakens refer to counter-logical reasons.

I don't think The Force Awakens really has any plot holes because that would imply the movie had any kind of plot at all.

Quote from: Bren;873474I prefer the term space opera for shows set in space and horse opera for shows set in the American West. That goes double for Star Wars since it wasn't trying to sell any soap.;)

If you go by what they're trying to sell, westerns would be "romanticized frontier history" opera, space would be "wildly incorrect physics" opera, and Star Wars in particular would be "anything that paid a licensing fee" opera.

I would be very surprised if soap was not among the "anything". The nearby hardware store had shower heads in the shape of R2-D2 and Darth Vader's helmet; I am still wondering at who could find those appealing (do you want the shower head that looks like it can kill you by electrocution or by using the Force?).

Quote from: Elfdart;873525I don't think The Force Awakens really has any plot holes because that would imply the movie had any kind of plot at all.

Exactly. :D

Though my wife and I enjoyed watching the movie I agree with all the criticism about pacing and continuity and lack of originality.

Quote from: Skarg;873489So, in A New Hope, when the Falcon flies from Tatooine to Alderaan, it may seem convenient that they run into the Death Star. But there is a reason for it that makes some sense. Notice that the trip actually takes some time, during which they have time to talk about non-emergency things, do some training, etc - it's not a 20-second trip. They're trying to get to Leia on her home planet, because of R2D2, who Leia sent when she was captured by Vader at Tatooine. Vader then decides to try to extort the Rebel base location from Leia by using Alderaan (her home planet) as a hostage. Seeing her helpless in that situation is much more than just "a few throw away lines". And it makes sense then that the Falcon shows up at about the same time. So there is a reason why, in a huge galaxy, these people end up in the same place. Then, the whole escape from the Death Star with "storm troopers suddenly can't hit anything" is actually explained by Leia later, when she says something like "Our escape was far too easy. They let us escape. We're being tracked." Guess what? Vader put a tracking device on the ship, and gave orders to let them escape, to lead them to the Rebel base, because it is a CRUCIAL issue that they somehow need to find it in a way that makes some actual sense. Just like it is also a crucial issue that the Rebels need to get the Death Star plans to the Rebels, in order for them to find a way to destroy it. Leia chooses to go to the base anyway, also in a gambit to have an opportunity to destroy the Death Star, because it will be coming to the base in great haste (instead of with 30 Star Destroyers in a planned attack) and because the battle will happen before the Imperials also have more time to analyse and find the weakness (which in fact they do during the battle of Yavin, so good thing she had them lead the Death Star to the Rebel base).

I found a lot of the stuff in A New Hope oddly convenient to the plot. Even more than A New Hope Though, the whole scene in Empire when they are running from the empire, then suddenly hit an asteroid belt, then when they land on an asteroid and hide in a cave, it just happens to be a massive space worm. That stuff is all fine, it makes for entertaining movies, but it sacrifices believability for action and pacing (which again is fine, because it is an action/adventure movie).

I mentioned the whole gambit to track the Falcon, and I agree that they do put a tracking device on there and they explain some things. But it is both reckless for the empire to take the death star to the rebels knowing they have death star plans (why not just send a fleet?) and it is reckless for Leia to continue to the rebel base, knowing they are being tracked. Again, those make for great movies, and the decisions are fine, but it stood out to me in the same way that stuff in the force awakened stood out.

Where I will agree is that modern movies tend to be paced differently. I usually like slower paced movies with more dialogue that take time to build and draw you in. They rarely make films like that today (unless they are specifically dramatic films aimed at an older audience). You don't have quite as many lulls and lengthy dialogue in modern films, and that often annoys me a lot. But importantly star wars was never a series that used slow pacing. It was always more in the indiana jones style of film making and very different from other movies that were coming out in the 70s. Was a new hope slower paced than the new one? Probably, simply because it came out at a time where pacing was different (pacing changes a lot over time and it is really hard to get a new, younger audience to watch older movies with slower pacing). I watch a lot of martial arts movies for example and you really notice this inside a genre if you watch it over time. Audiences in the 60s had more patients than audiences i the 70s for slower developments. Audiences in the 70s were more patient than audiences in the 80s, etc. So the force awakens may be a bit faster paced than A New Hope just because they are made in different eras. That is a product of movies changing, not a product of this one film. But I watched them back to back and have to say the pacing in both seemed pretty much to follow that indiana jones model of out of the pot into the frying pan,where things just kept going quickly along. If you watch the star wars movies, they are pretty fast-paced and hand wavy with time (though I will agree in Force Awakens, one or two elapses might have been helpful).

QuoteNotice how all that makes some degree of sense, and makes the events relevant and dependent on each other in ways that make some sense, and notice how the situation gives the reasons in ways that make some sense. The vastness of the galaxy means there are some delays and difficulty in finding things and organizing attacks and so on.

Again, I listed a bunch of stuff that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense in the original trilogy. If you go online, I'm sure you can find even more comprehensive listings of issues. Certainly some things they do explain, but there is plenty of stuff they don't and it never really seemed to be a priority in star wars (and I say this as a hard sci-fi fan who just can't take the idea that star wars treats science with any respect seriously). I love star wars, but it has never been a series I've gone to for its continuity or reverence for real world science and cause and effect. It has always been more like a comic book.

QuoteCompare to The Force Awakens:

The Falcon escapes Jakku, and before Finn and Rey can finish one short conversation, HAN SOLO shows up in deep space. Then they have time for half a conversation when suddenly two groups of bounty hunters show up at the same point and appear down the hallway from them before they can do anything else. To me this is obvious extreme time/space bending by the writer/director, because he wants a breathless plot, at the expense of throwing out the logic that a ship in deep space might be damn impossible to find, or at least not immediately. And that even if there is some broadcasting device on the Falcon, it would take time for its signal to be received and responded to, and even if not, Han Solo, super-experienced dude, would know others were looking too and would at least have a way to be warned if someone else showed up, and it should also take time and give warnings when someone else boards, and the boarders would not immediately just be right there down the hall from him. To me these are all massive continuity underminings.

Han, having just been reminded that others can track and immediately show up at the Falcon, makes no effort to find and remove the tracking. Instead he goes where a "friend" is and fails to expect an immediate attack. He doesn't hide in an asteroid or other relatively safe location, or anything. He walks far away from the Falcon and sits down for a cozy drink and doesn't warn anyone. So lame. So effectively again, the Empire and Rebels (with stupidly changed names) appear at about the same time - the same timing that might be expected as if they were all in the same system.

Then, worst of all, only a few minutes after somehow a few X-Wings manage to drive off a Star Destroyer since natch they're happy having captured a teenage girl, they look up and see a barely-mentioned-before set of planets being destroyed, pretty much just for the dramatic reason of saying "ooh they have a Death Star version 3.0 - oh noes anonymous people died!" in as brief a way as possible. But when bewildered fans do Internet research later to find out who the heck those dead people were, etc., we find that that temporary New Republic capital and its moon planets or whatever WERE IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STAR SYSTEM MANY MANY LIGHT YEARS AWAY even though Leia (because mirroring New Hope scene but in superficial way) etc just get to see them blowing up spectacularly in the sky, because JJ want a cool dramatic effect and doesn't know or doesn't care that it makes no sense that the event would be visible there in any way. Again, it's like it's all in the same system, and would make more sense if it were. It's as if JJ's ignorance/apathy is reducing the galaxy to a single star system, effectively.

Then in the "rebel base versus Starkiller base" situation, again they are not anywhere near each other in the galaxy, but they find themselves in a first-strike race, again in no way that makes sense. It's pretty clearly just because they are mindlessly mirroring the plot of a New Hope, but they threw out the parts that made the plot sequence of that film make any sense. That is:

* How many strikes does Han get? He knows the Falcon is trackable, but they fly it to the Rebel Base anyway. I assume this would be how the One Direction (er New Order?) know where the Rebel base is to target it? Either that or they just know. Again, it seems like there is no particular effort needed to know where something is. The logical effect of a huge galaxy is gone. No pretense of having a reason how they know where it is, or trying to avoid that, or anything, is present IIRC. Again, it's like they may as well all be in the same system.

* Meanwhile, how silly is the Resistance to again have everything on one vital ground base that they can't evacuate when threatened? In A New Hope and Empire, they evacuate what they can - here they don't even seem to bother. Even without a planet-buster, having a crucial ground base is silly if the enemy has a significant fleet. So this is pretty stupid.

* Also, the (ridiculous in so so many ways) Starkiller (lol) Base sucks up stars for ammo (omg how stupid, and was there something insufficient about a Death Star weapon? and so (moment of logic not mentioned in film) can move from star to star. So... how the heck does the Resistance know where it is? And why doesn't it hyperjump to someplace else to launch its next attack, to avoid the Resistance knowing where it is? Because that level of thinking is apparently vastly too sentient for JJ. Conclusion: giant logic vacuum. Again, it's as if everything were in one system, because all logical consequences of being in different systems have been removed.

* Similarly for the Starkiller (groan) Base's weapon being able to send multiple guided hyperspacing planet-destroying glowy-death-tendrils across the galaxy to anywhere before anyone who is not a major character can react or run or anything - this too reduces the effect of galactic distances to essentially one system.

* Similar to Han hyperjumping in perfect sync with Starkiller Base's flickering shield system, even though he is coming from another system so how would he have any data to sync with? Again ignoring logical effects of being in different systems.

* Why were Poe and Emo Badguy lookin' for Luke on Jakku at the same moment? No effort to even make up a reason. Again, it's like there's  only one place in the galaxy - the current plot focus place.


Compare the relatively frequent use of the word "because" in my notes on A New Hope, to the only uses of that word for The Force Awakens refer to counter-logical reasons.

Again, I am not saying The Force Awakens doesn't have holes. Also, if you feel differently than I do, it isn't any skin off my back. We can't all have the same reaction to space movies. I just don't agree with this analysis personally. I would honestly need to watch it again to address each of these individually though and see how badly they compare to holes in the first trilogy (simply because I've seen the first trilogy many, many times, and I've only seen the Force Awakens once). But again, my impression is most of this stuff is pretty comparable to the kinds of holes I remember from the original trilogy, and most of the holes I did notice (with the exception of one big one that I thought was a bit too far) felt like they added more to the film than they took away (which for me is the measure of whether it is really a problem or not in a movie this light).

In terms of tone, which I have seen a lot of people comment on. I would once again encourage people to rematch the original trilogy. I promise you, it bounces back and forth between humor and seriousness. That is exactly what Force awakens did. Even Jedi would be knee deep in silliness with the Ewoks, then suddenly you see an Ewok get blasted and his friend tries to nudge this lifeless body. For me this is one of the contrasts that works in the franchise. So I felt they did a pretty good job striking that balance here (though I do expect the next film to be much darker).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602I found a lot of the stuff in A New Hope oddly convenient to the plot. Even more than A New Hope Though, the whole scene in Empire when they are running from the empire, then suddenly hit an asteroid belt, then when they land on an asteroid and hide in a cave, it just happens to be a massive space worm. That stuff is all fine, it makes for entertaining movies, but it sacrifices believability for action and pacing (which again is fine, because it is an action/adventure movie).

Yes, various things in A New Hope are oddly convenient. But mostly things have some sort of context or reason or relevant situation around them. And "something really convenient happened" is a whole different degree of unbelievability (even inconceivability) from "something 500 light years away is visible in the sky above".

And yes, the "asteroid field" is not astronomically something we know exists, so a (not entirely inconceivable) Space Opera level thing. The space worm cave is a higher level of Space Opera thing, and is second only to the way the Falcon barely escapes though its teeth on my (fairly short) list of things I think are serious believability problems with The Empire Strikes Back. I forgive the asteroid "field" because it doesn't seem impossible and the music and first part of that sequence I quite enjoy. But I do hate the space worm and especially the escape by the skin of the teeth, because I can only take so many "they probably should have died" moments before a story is to me just about a ridiculously improbable survival that no one really acknowledges. "The Force" I end up assuming, is looking out for its favorite children, a lot.

But again, there are no few to none inconceivable, completely unexplained, would-never-happen-that-way, or just plain mindless events, whereas The Force Awakens seems to me full of those.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602I mentioned the whole gambit to track the Falcon, and I agree that they do put a tracking device on there and they explain some things. But it is both reckless for the empire to take the death star to the rebels knowing they have death star plans (why not just send a fleet?) and it is reckless for Leia to continue to the rebel base, knowing they are being tracked. Again, those make for great movies, and the decisions are fine, but it stood out to me in the same way that stuff in the force awakened stood out.

It is reckless, but it's also established that Vader is more interested in destroying the Rebellion and issues of the Force than he is with the Death Star, which he mocks and seems to at least somewhat disapprove of. Even Tarkin is focussed on finding the Rebel base, and he wants to use his Death Star to do it, to make a point. So it actually developed established continuity that supports that move. Not to mention that Vader and Tarkin are serious scary adults, and not bumbling boy-men who throw 2-year-old tantrums and threaten to tell on each other when they mess things up.

So yes, these are reckless moves that add up to a dramatic showdown. But at least the movie is consistent and establishes the things that lead to this situation. And the whole film acts like it cares about all the situations that lead up to this showdown, and invites the audience to understand them and care, and tries to seem somewhat consistent about how they play out.

In TFA, it's more like a stream of events that are barely explained and don't tend to make much sense - and the sense they end up with way too often adds up to either nonsense (cross-galaxy fire jet attacks seen from other star systems), ridiculousness (came for a droid, got a young girl, just as good - oh look the Rebels we're trying to destroy - guess we'll leave then), or mindlessness (let's just go take out this planet base thing; these things always have ways to blow them up in 20 minutes).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602Where I will agree is that modern movies tend to be paced differently. I usually like slower paced movies with more dialogue that take time to build and draw you in. They rarely make films like that today (unless they are specifically dramatic films aimed at an older audience). You don't have quite as many lulls and lengthy dialogue in modern films, and that often annoys me a lot. But importantly star wars was never a series that used slow pacing. It was always more in the indiana jones style of film making and very different from other movies that were coming out in the 70s. Was a new hope slower paced than the new one? Probably, simply because it came out at a time where pacing was different (pacing changes a lot over time and it is really hard to get a new, younger audience to watch older movies with slower pacing). I watch a lot of martial arts movies for example and you really notice this inside a genre if you watch it over time. Audiences in the 60s had more patients than audiences i the 70s for slower developments. Audiences in the 70s were more patient than audiences in the 80s, etc. So the force awakens may be a bit faster paced than A New Hope just because they are made in different eras. That is a product of movies changing, not a product of this one film. But I watched them back to back and have to say the pacing in both seemed pretty much to follow that indiana jones model of out of the pot into the frying pan,where things just kept going quickly along. If you watch the star wars movies, they are pretty fast-paced and hand wavy with time (though I will agree in Force Awakens, one or two elapses might have been helpful).

I agree that there is a tendency towards faster and more mindless films in later and recent films. Certainly TFA has plenty of company with recent mindless films. However I would say that that is a trend or rationale and not a cause. Not all movies from the 60's or 70's make sense, either. Mindless movies are mindless because they were made mindlessly. Mindlessness may be a trend but it's still just making a mindless movie, and not all recent movies are mindless.

As for pacing, there's fast pacing and then there's throwing out continuity for even faster pacing. I agree that A New Hope and Raiders of the Lost Ark have fast pacing, and I enjoy the fast pacing - I'm able to, because someone took a moment to have the pacing make some sense. (I even find the Dagobah scenes in Empire tedious.) Also, the pacing in those films has film-world "elapses" as you say. TFA has almost zero elapses, and the logic suffers greatly for it. It seems to me that having elapses and slightly slower parts in a film actually increases the effect of the fast-paced parts, because there's some contrast, and also because it's more possible to tell a coherent and believable story that way. I quite liked the stop at the bar with the wise-eyed alien in TFA, and dreaded that I knew it was about to be blown to crap in a matter of minutes by the mindless action patrol, and squirmed uncomfortably as the way they did so made no sense: "We're here to get a droid, so destroy the building! Send in troops and fighters at the same time to the same place! Spread out and don't coordinate! Engage the "traitor" in single melee combat! Chase after the girl!" and the other gripes I already mentioned.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602Again, I listed a bunch of stuff that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense in the original trilogy. If you go online, I'm sure you can find even more comprehensive listings of issues. Certainly some things they do explain, but there is plenty of stuff they don't and it never really seemed to be a priority in star wars (and I say this as a hard sci-fi fan who just can't take the idea that star wars treats science with any respect seriously). I love star wars, but it has never been a series I've gone to for its continuity or reverence for real world science and cause and effect. It has always been more like a comic book.

I know, but those complaints mostly seem pathetic compared to the glaring nonsense in TFA (or the prequels). They don't seem the same type or order of magnitude of silliness.

There's a big difference between non-scientific, made up content, even somewhat light logic, and "no way this makes sense, not gonna try to explain it - we totally don't care". The first Star Wars films and Raiders have really unrealistic settings and technologies and so on, but then they mostly try to play consistently within those settings, so that their action and events make some sense, so there's something to get involved in and care about. They make at least a little bit of effort to at least explain what's happening and why with some consistency.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602Again, I am not saying The Force Awakens doesn't have holes. Also, if you feel differently than I do, it isn't any skin off my back. We can't all have the same reaction to space movies. I just don't agree with this analysis personally. I would honestly need to watch it again to address each of these individually though and see how badly they compare to holes in the first trilogy (simply because I've seen the first trilogy many, many times, and I've only seen the Force Awakens once). But again, my impression is most of this stuff is pretty comparable to the kinds of holes I remember from the original trilogy, and most of the holes I did notice (with the exception of one big one that I thought was a bit too far) felt like they added more to the film than they took away (which for me is the measure of whether it is really a problem or not in a movie this light).

Yeah, I know there are many people who disagree one way or another. I get into this type of discussion though particularly when there are clearly intelligent people who seem to think that there isn't a vast gap between the continuity of films like these. Also because Hollywood keeps spending hundreds of millions on films that I would enjoy if someone spent a little bit of attention on at least trying to somewhat make things make some shred of sense, instead of seeming to be actively anti-logical.

It ends up feeling like a duty to speak up and not just let nonsense slide.

I'd be really curious to hear what you think TFA's holes add to the film. I tend to agree with Spike that most of them could have been easily patched with a very small amount of attention or change to the overall story, which is also partly why they feel so galling.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;873602In terms of tone, which I have seen a lot of people comment on. I would once again encourage people to rematch the original trilogy. I promise you, it bounces back and forth between humor and seriousness. That is exactly what Force awakens did. Even Jedi would be knee deep in silliness with the Ewoks, then suddenly you see an Ewok get blasted and his friend tries to nudge this lifeless body. For me this is one of the contrasts that works in the franchise. So I felt they did a pretty good job striking that balance here (though I do expect the next film to be much darker).

I agree that there was a steep back and forth in tone in the original trilogy. I don't remember writing that was a complaint of mine with TFA. I enjoy most Star Wars humor, and I think perhaps the only thing I like about Kylo Ren is seeing him have a tantrum with a light sabre (I take that as humor - I'm not sure if that's supposed to be dark or not - I have a hard time taking Kylo Ren seriously at all).

And I think the Ewok situation was gawd awful. They should have stuck with the original idea and had it be a Wookie colony or work camp so they could believably be dangerous (Chewie could have convinced Wookie slaves to revolt), and allowed more than one furry casualty per legion of the Emperor's "best troops". I think Jedi was the logic-level turning point with the Ewoks, and a bit with the "send in all the heroes and let them get captured rescue plan" for Han.

You raise some interesting points, but I don't have a lot of time to address all of them sufficient detail today, so I will just stick with a couple that I thought were valid.

The whole 'everyone can see the destruction the destruction of the new Republic and the Hosnian system. I thought this was bad science. It made no sense at all. Maybe I just don't know enough about the star wars galaxy, but to me it looked like the montage as it was being blown up, was trying to show people from vastly different sections seeing it in their night sky both as the same size and at the same time. Maybe the galaxy in star wars is smaller than I thought, or maybe they have some weird explanation for it, but it seemed like a huge stretch. It definitely was noticeable when it happened. I think it might have been more impactful to just have one nearby plenet witness it in the sky, or have it conveyed to others through the force. Either way, it was odd. But it is also happening in a world where space ships abide by the physics of terrestrial craft, fixing a hyper drive takes some elbow grease and a wrench (really no different than changing a tire), and there is sound in space. It just isn't a franchise I expect much science from. It if were another sequel to 2001, my bar would be much higher. But for Star Wars, I really don't expect much, and I do understand that they did that for emotional impact (still think it is dumb, but I get why it was done).

I think some of your other points are valid, but I frankly feel you are giving the original star wars way too much of a pass on the same believability and flow issues. I really am having trouble seeing how the problems in Force Awakens are all that different from the first trilogy (the things I listed, I don't consider minor at all).

Quote from: Skarg;873619I'd be really curious to hear what you think TFA's holes add to the film. I tend to agree with Spike that most of them could have been easily patched with a very small amount of attention or change to the overall story, which is also partly why they feel so galling.
.

If you list two or three holes (aside from the one I address in the other post) I'd be happy to give my take. In most instances I just think patches would have disrupted the flow they were going for. Each patch on its own might not seem like much, but you add that up over an entire film and I think it would have a big impact.

So. I saw the film a week or two ago and only just noticed this thread. For my part, I thought it was a lot of flashy set pieces that didn't hang together very well. I don't feel any need to see it again, but I can't muster enough energy to hate it.

From an RPG perspective, the film felt like a Star Wars game being run by a GM for his girlfriend (just because the protagonist is female): basically, Rey has the same adventure as a New Hope, while being the best fighter, jedi, pilot, mechanic, and scout in the galaxy, who everybody immediately loves.

If only there was a term for that.  ;)

(Still, nice seeing a competent female protagonist, don't get me wrong.)

Quote from: Majus;873708From an RPG perspective, the film felt like a Star Wars game being run by a GM for his girlfriend (just because the protagonist is female): basically, Rey has the same adventure as a New Hope, while being the best fighter, jedi, pilot, mechanic, and scout in the galaxy, who everybody immediately loves.

If only there was a term for that.  ;)

I'm not a fan of the movie but I really had no issues with Rey... and I sure didn't get a Mary Sue vibe off of her... at least, no more than I get off of most Hollywood action heroes nowadays.

Nice to see this thread has been humming right along in my absence. :)

I had a thought last night, while my computer was dead, and I'm about to try and recreate it now.  I, and others, have commented on the sparsity of plot in TFA. I'd like to expand that shorthand criticism, to explain in some writerly-crafty sort of way where TFA goes off the rails.

What, exactly, is the plot of The Force Awakens?

Well, that's actually pretty simple. The Plot is 'Find Luke Skywalker'.  

Is it a good plot? Eh... look, most plots are pretty banal when stripped to the essence. Its the TRIP that people are after, right? The infamous 'plot arc' with its rising and falling action, which most people have probably seen diagrammed like a backwards rock of Gibraltar, or summach.

And does TFA have a neatly diagrammed plot arc with rising and falling action, with little dips and peaks along the way?

Better than the Expendables!   Maybe too many peaks along the way, but it surely does have rising action.

So, clearly, my complaint about a 'lack of plot' is invalid.  

Whoa! I say Whoa! Not so fast, cowboy.

Who are are main characters here? Finn and Rey.  

What is Finn's reason for finding Luke Skywalker?

He doesn't have one. Doesn't care, not interested in the least... he really just wants to get away from The New Order.  

So Rey then? Rey is Luke's Daughter, right?

Well, the movie doesn't definitively answer that, especially not for Rey.  Rey, according to everything we know about her... wants to stay on Tatooine and wait for her family to come home. She wants that more, even, than her secondary motivation of 'wanting to belong to a family'.  At every turn she insists on returning to Tatooine, and the pesky plot keeps interfering.

What about BB8 (or however they're writing it...)?

Nah. He's merely carrying the mcguffin map. He wants to get back to Poe and the Revolution.  

So, that leaves us with a couple of minor characters and the villain.

So... we've got a great setup for a comedy of errors, but that's not how the movie plays out.  Finn and Rey (and the fucking beach ball) all know exactly what they've got, and aside from the beach ball, no real reason to keep it.  I mean: There are a few points where the comedy of errors formula plays out, but rather than for laughs, its used simply to keep the weak 'plot' limping along. Finn can't tell Rey to abandon the beach ball on Tatooine because he just told her he's a big shot in the Revolution... and the power of boners is strong in that one!  Rey can't abandon it because... um... well.... because she's a chick and chicks dig cute, childish things?  Damn, JJ, you cold sonufabitch!

So the engine of the plot, motivation, is entirely replaced with a weak excuse for comedy.

Now, lets look at that arc again. See that big hump at the top of our 'plot arc'? Yeah, that thing. What is that?

Well, according to my napkin art diagram, that's when they blow up the starkiller base.

Which has fuck-all to do with finding Luke Skywalker, from the perspective of EITHER side.  Its a sideshow, a distraction... a tangent, utterly unrelated to the plot.  So is the set piece on Han Solo's scavenger ship for that matter, and for the most part the entire assault on Mara (baring Kylo Ren in the woods, honestly).

So... once we take out the shiny, shiny bling, what IS the big peak on our plot arc?

Well, that would be when R2D2 wakes up from his plot induced coma and reveals the second half of the map to Luke Skywalker.

And why does R2D2 wake up?

Because.

No, really.  

Just.... Because.


He doesn't even get a mild jostling. No. Its as if Luke Skywalker powered him down with an alarm set to wake him back up when the movie had run out of shiny distractions.  

Well. That was anti-climactic. Literally.


Lets go back a step to our character motivations, which would normally serve to drive a plot.

Finn's motivation is to escape the New Order and to get laid.  Clearly in that order, as he abandons Rey to avoid the New Order.  

Now, his actions on Mara, 'running away'... which ironically gave me a false sense of hope that the story was actually going somewhere... run contrary to his motivation.  What? Was he afraid that the Revolution might hand him over to the New Order? How does that even work?  Clearing disappearing anonymously with some tramp traders is the safer bet.

Not that it matters, since character motivations don't actually mean a hill of beans in this crazy film. Which is sort of my point.

Rey actually has an Anti-motivation. As a Gamer I'm sure you've all seen players who bring characters who have no reason to exist, much less adventure. Well, that's Rey.  Rey REALLY REALLY just wants to hang out in the desert. Presumably until her parents come back for her, but she never comes out and says it boldly (a remarkably light touch for JJ. In service to a bad cause, but still...).  She literally runs away from the plot over this very point (On Mara, which is why she's in the woods when Kylo Ren shows up...)

Kylo Ren? What exactly is his motivation. To impress Snape? Snoke? Snooki?  Gollum's slightly less impressive second cousin?  

Well, I think his motivation is best summed up as "I want to be evil and scary but I sort of suck at it".

Um. That's not a joke.  He seems to be deliberately fighting his better angels at every turn, looking for the best way to be a bad guy.  Its not... the worst villain motivation, but it is a bit... odd.

So we have a runaway and a stayaway fighting against "I'm not bad, but I wanna be", who honestly has zero fucks to give for either of them, except they have his precious map.

Oh sure, he eventually develops a boner for Rey too, because everyone does in this film, but that's not actually a possible plot driver until, what, two thirds of the way through the film?



So hopefully if you ever mention the weak plot to someone and they ask 'what do you mean?'... you can just point them here and save yourself some grief.

Quote from: Simlasa;873778I sure didn't get a Mary Sue vibe off of her... at least, no more than I get off of most Hollywood action heroes nowadays.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man.

(I'm quite happy to agree to disagree, you may well technically be right... which is the best kind of right.)

Quote from: Spike;873796So hopefully if you ever mention the weak plot to someone and they ask 'what do you mean?'... you can just point them here and save yourself some grief.

I play in a weekly Star Wars (EotE) game. I may need to do just that. ;)

Seriously, good post by the way.

Quote from: Spike;873796Well, that's actually pretty simple. The Plot is 'Find Luke Skywalker'.  

(...)

Finn can't tell Rey to abandon the beach ball on Tatooine because he just told her he's a big shot in the Revolution... and the power of boners is strong in that one!  Rey can't abandon it because... um... well.... because she's a chick and chicks dig cute, childish things?

Your big mistake here is in equating plot to character motivation.

The plot may be "Find Luke Skywalker", just like the plot in A New Hope was "Destroy the Death Star". But that's not the motivation for Rey and Finn for the majority of the film any more than it's the motivation for Luke and Han.

For the first half of the film, the motivation of both Finn and Rey is "stay alive" (which manifests itself in different ways). This begins to shift for both of them on Maz's planet when they receive their hero's calls: Rey literally runs from her call (which is now "find Luke Skywalker"), only to embrace it later in the film (when she summons his lightsaber instead of rejecting it). Finn also runs from his call (which is now "save Rey"), but turns it around pretty quickly when he sees Kylo Ren take her.

QuoteAnd why does R2D2 wake up?

JJ Abrams claims it's just a delayed reaction from BB-8 retrieving the last part of the map.

My guess is that Abrams is lying, and my more specific guess is that R2-D2 wakes up immediately after Rey reaches him.

Quote from: Spike;872760Why does Han Solo show up when he does?

Because he's got an active scanning program keeping an eye out for the Falcon. This is explicitly stated in the film.

QuoteThen they talk about an awakening in the Force. Who awakened?

Why... Rey, the girl who hasn't done a god damn thing different from any other day, that's who.

We're actually shown a typical day in Rey's life. It notably doesn't involve stealing the Millennium Falcon and evading multiple TIE fighters. I'm not entirely sure what in the film could have possibly led you to believe that this would be stuff she does every single day.

QuoteNever mind that as the movie goes on Finn increasingly goes from a trained Stormtrooper to a hapless bumbling idiot, only as important to the "plot" as the Bothan Spies from A New Hope

First: No Bothan spies are present or mentioned in A New Hope.

Second: Finn continues playing a key role in the plot up to the moment he gets his back sliced open and goes unconscious for the last 10 minutes of the movie.

QuoteOh look: The bad guys have a giant planet destroying super weapon which they fire at a populated world.

No literally, that just happens.  Billions dead with no build up, no foreshadowing, and really no reason at all except to demonstrate that, yes, the Empire blows up worlds for fun.

Here's where I can't argue with you: Pretty much every single thing involving Starkiller Base is nonsensical and/or poorly handled.

First, the mere existence of yet another planet killer feels unnecessary. (I groaned when it first appeared on screen.)

Second, the destruction of Hasnian Prime is completely mishandled. Not only is no meaningful time given to make it clear what's being destroyed, the audience has no meaningful emotional attachment, either. Even once you puzzle out what happened (destruction of the New Republic capital and its entire fleet), it doesn't make any sense: Why the heck would the entire space fleet be kept on the planet?

Third, why can the destruction of the planet be seen from a completely different star system?

Fourth, the plan to destroy Starkiller Base is practically absurd. The characters all but turn to the camera and say, "We've all seen this plot before, right? Let's just do it."

Fifth, the actual visual storytelling of the assault on Starkiller Base is just incoherent noise. There's a kind of half-assed "bombing run" motif, but this oddly has no impact on any of the other action happening in the same location at the same time and is then quickly abandoned. Then they go for a half-assed version of the trench run from ANH (but with none of the storytelling structure) and follow it up with a half-assed version of the interior run from ROTJ.

(There's also the related issue of comparing the Resistance -- with the secret backing of the Republic -- with the fledgling Rebellion in ANH. The Rebellion launches a large and significant fleet of fighters and also has larger craft that aren't used because they would be useless against the Death Star's defenses. The Resistance -- again, forty years later and with the assistance of the Republic -- apparently consists entirely of twelve X-Wings.)

It's also notable how easily the entire Starkiller Base stuff could have been removed from the film while having no impact on the film whatsoever: The motivation from Han, Chewie, and Finn to go to the First Order base would have been to rescue Rey. Everything of importance that happens at the base could have still occurred. Ta-da! (I'd also add a bit where Rey discovers that the First Order has retrieved the rest of the map leading to Luke, so they'd also grab those on their way out.)

About the only thing of any value to be gained from the Starkiller Base is the thematic element of "the light going out". And even that doesn't actually work because... well, they fire the weapon twice, right? So why does it only eat the sun the second time? Nonsense all the way down.

If you absolutely needed to keep the Starkiller Base stuff in the film, what I would have done is NOT destroy Hasnian Prime midway through the film. Instead, the Resistance becomes aware of the threat and launches a mission at the end of the film to prevent them from using their one-shot weapon to take out the Republic capital. The back half of the film could then have been used to clearly communicate the stakes involved before the weapon is fired, and then a desperate assault would be launched in an effort to blow up the weapon before it's fired...

... and, importantly, it would fail. The plucky heroes don't destabilize the weapon at the last minute. It fires. The Republic capital is destroyed with the audience fully understanding the implications of that as it happens.

Not only would that have given the opportunity for a more coherent narrative, the inversion from ANH and ROTJ would have made the inclusion of a planet-killer more acceptable in general: It would be playing on one of the motifs of the saga instead of just repeating it.

Quote from: Spike;873354** This may be spotty. Plenty of light hearted, unserious fare has included torture and torture devices as somewhat comical and unserious.  Still, compare and contrast the handling of the interrogator probe in A New Hope, or the torture of Han Solo in Empire (screams of pain, people looking away even though they aren't in the same room, etc), with TFA, where its all pointing hands and funny face making.... you know, every hero gets tortured these days. They call it Tuesday.

Po Dameron is shown physically bloodied with a torture droid floating in the background (which is more physical damage than we see either Leia or Han suffer from their torture sessions) before Kylo Ren comes in and says, "I'm impressed that the torturers couldn't make you talk, so now I'm going to rip the answers out of you."

Quote from: 3rik;873596Though my wife and I enjoyed watching the movie I agree with all the criticism about pacing and continuity and lack of originality.

Agreed. This movie was far from Abrams' best work, and the weirdly amazing/stupid technology of the Star Wars universe kept grating on my nerves. That said, I'll concede it was a guilty pleasure. I reckon 5 years from now I'll be watching it on HBO or something and laughing (harder) at how bad it all was.

Hey, has anyone seen a good rant post of how the Star Wars universe could be improved/make more sense if they used 21st Century Earth technology in a few places?

Quote from: Doom;874745This movie was far from Abrams' best work

What's his best work?

Quote from: Doom;874745Hey, has anyone seen a good rant post of how the Star Wars universe could be improved/make more sense if they used 21st Century Earth technology in a few places?

All I know is the assumption that a futuristic internet and smartphones exist in the SW universe ruined the feel of the one SW campaign I played in.

Also, why aren't the droid flying all the ships?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;874816All I know is the assumption that a futuristic internet and smartphones exist in the SW universe ruined the feel of the one SW campaign I played in.

Also, why aren't the droid flying all the ships?

Some of this stuff irked me too. But I was thinking about it, and was wondering if I were born in the internet age, would I be able to buy into a setting like that that didn't have basic things like some version of the internet? I have to admit though,  even though it is vaguely futuristic, I never really pictured the star wars universe having stuff like internet or sitcoms.

Quote from: Bren;874803What's his best work?

I lean towards Fringe.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;874825Some of this stuff irked me too. But I was thinking about it, and was wondering if I were born in the internet age, would I be able to buy into a setting like that that didn't have basic things like some version of the internet? I have to admit though,  even though it is vaguely futuristic, I never really pictured the star wars universe having stuff like internet or sitcoms.

Our Star Wars campaign had/has holoshows which we envisioned as being a lot like TV shows. Sometimes like TV shows of the 1950s or early 1960s.

Quote from: Doom;874828I lean towards Fringe.

Never seen any Abrahms TV. What's the selling point for Fringe? What did you like about it? Why should one watch it?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;874825Some of this stuff irked me too. But I was thinking about it, and was wondering if I were born in the internet age, would I be able to buy into a setting like that that didn't have basic things like some version of the internet? I have to admit though,  even though it is vaguely futuristic, I never really pictured the star wars universe having stuff like internet or sitcoms.

I should probably ask some younger folk.  For me, I see the internet as a result of a very specific set of political and economic circumstances that was by no means unavoidable.  All it would have taken would have been the wrong sort of law or the pulling of funding in the wrong place and it likely would not have happened like it has.

Though i suppose you could argue that there is something like an internet, but people seem to like to have a droid access it through one of those little circular data ports and then beep about what they find.  I could see a given world having an internet that is just for that world.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;874042Your big mistake here is in equating plot to character motivation.

Hmm... that's odd. I distinctly recall writing separately about plot and character motivations, and then weaving them together to explain how they can or should support one another.

Well, your refutation of my point is off to an excellent start.

QuoteThe plot may be "Find Luke Skywalker", just like the plot in A New Hope was "Destroy the Death Star". But that's not the motivation for Rey and Finn for the majority of the film any more than it's the motivation for Luke and Han.

Yup. Dealt with exhaustively in my last post. However, since you brought up 'A New Hope', and Han and Luke, I can bring them into the analysis a bit further.

If we agree, and for the purposes of expedition we will, that the plot of A New Hope is to "Destroy the Death Star", note how Luke's motivation (Rescue the Princess) and Han Solo's Motivation (Get PAID by the Princess) actually serve to reinforce the plot.  In order to fulfill their personal motivations they have to get to said Death Star, then escape it, princess in tow.  Once they do, they bring said death star to the Endorian Moon, where the rebel base is, Han Solo gets paid in fact.  Once the Death Star is following them to the rebel base it must be destroyed, and in very short order.

Contrast with the Force Awakens. If Finn follows his motivation (to 'escape the New Order'), he walks away from the plot by going with the random merchant mercenaries. If we allow his secondary motivation (Get into Rey's Pants) to become his primary, then what? Rey's Motivation is "Hang out on Jakku until the stars are cold dead cinders, or my parents come back for me... whichever is first"), which would subsequently remove her from the plot entirely, and taking Finn with her.

Note the contrast. In ANH, the motivations serve to push the plot forward. In TFA they retard it, and have to be ignored or circumvented by circumstance.

QuoteFor the first half of the film, the motivation of both Finn and Rey is "stay alive" (which manifests itself in different ways).

No. Rey's motivation is 'Stay On Jakku'. To whit, she refuses Han Solo's offer of a place on the Millennium Falcon, which she clearly wishes to take.  

I do concede it is Finn's motivation, however, which makes his refusal to join the Rebellion somewhat non-sensical. Finn is demonstrably not a coward except for that one scene, which exists entirely to create dramatic tension from nothing, which is the cheapest Dramatic Tension.  I'm reminded of Farscape (which I've been watching lately), when Aeryn Sun is confronted on the Command Carrier by her former friend/lover(?). Our Hero does nothing in the scene, the NPC is convienetly killed by GM Fiat when she randomly catches fire, and Aeryn Sun goes about her mission of rescuing the others.  Its fake tension. In Star Wars its because the character's actions don't line up with previous actions. In Farscape it is because the Hero does nothing to resolve the situation, its mere distraction. Yes, I know: A tangent, but man that scene has been bugging me for weeks!

QuoteThis begins to shift for both of them on Maz's planet when they receive their hero's calls: Rey literally runs from her call (which is now "find Luke Skywalker"), only to embrace it later in the film (when she summons his lightsaber instead of rejecting it). Finn also runs from his call (which is now "save Rey"), but turns it around pretty quickly when he sees Kylo Ren take her.

Don't you think a Heroic Call should come a bit earlier in the film?  From the point of view of the audience, Rey doesn't receive a heroic calling, she freaks out from having some weird vision and runs off, and her agency is temporarily derailed by being captured, so we can't judge her long term reaction.  

And seeing one of my big complaints with the film is how short a shrift Finn gets, the fact that his big 'heroic call' is when he's told he wants to run away, and then he does... well... yeah.

QuoteJJ Abrams claims it's just a delayed reaction from BB-8 retrieving the last part of the map.

Yes, we poor peons just can't understand his brilliant writing.  

See, the thing about competent writing is that the writer doesn't have to come in after the fact to lampshade his pointless ex machina moments like that.

QuoteMy guess is that Abrams is lying, and my more specific guess is that R2-D2 wakes up immediately after Rey reaches him.

Again: after the fact justifications do not make up for glaring plot holes and random convienently timed actions.

QuoteBecause he's got an active scanning program keeping an eye out for the Falcon. This is explicitly stated in the film.

And what? He was just hanging out in Jakku that day? Its also pretty explicitly stated he had NO IDEA where the damn thing was, which gives us the impression that for the last dozen or so years he's had this buzzer waiting in the background, and when it finally does go off he's all like 'Hey, CHewie? What is that noise? Whaddya mean is the Millennium Falcon alarm? We got one of those? Whaddya mean I set it?".

At my most generous its mere lamp shading the obvious fact that Han Solo is RIGHT FUCKING THERE for no reason at all .

QuoteWe're actually shown a typical day in Rey's life. It notably doesn't involve stealing the Millennium Falcon and evading multiple TIE fighters. I'm not entirely sure what in the film could have possibly led you to believe that this would be stuff she does every single day.

Now, its been about two-three weeks, but I am pretty damn sure the comment about there being an 'awakening' happens BEFORE all that tie fighter crap.

QuoteFirst: No Bothan spies are present or mentioned in A New Hope.

First: Mon Mothma disagrees.  (https://youtu.be/CQeabed9N9M)

Second: The Bothans bring the Rebellion information on the critical weakness of the Death Star.  Finn brings the Rebellion information on the critical weakness of the Starkiller.  

QuoteSecond: Finn continues playing a key role in the plot up to the moment he gets his back sliced open and goes unconscious for the last 10 minutes of the movie.

Being onscreen is not the same as playing a key role.   Aside from knowing all about the Starkiller from his crucial role as a former janitor, his single biggest moment is rescuing Po from captivity... though his apparent ineptness leads us to believe that Po would probably have done just fine on his own.  Note too that Po is a MINOR CHARACTER, regardless of how good a pilot he is. That's why his total screen time amounts to about five minutes, maybe ten if we're feeling generous.

Lets review just about every single non-Starkiller thing Finn does after rescuing Po.  Hmm...

He doesn't help Rey against the scavengers 'stealing BB8', in fact she kicks his ass.

He doesn't really help when she uses the Millennium Falcon (a freighter) to outfly a bunch of Tie Fighters. After a token kill his gun is disabled, and she has to maneuver the entire ship to line up his shot for him.

On Han Solo's ship he doesn't do anythign about the rival gangs of criminals or the space monsters. In fact, Rey rescues him.

On Mara he runs away. Later he fights and kills a couple of stormtroopers alongside Han Solo and Chewbacca, and the trio are collectively rescued by Princess-General Leia. Flash but no bang.

After his big plot moment, where he reveals that he IS the Bothan Spy Network, at least for this film, he also reveals he is the only stormtrooper janitor. Seriously: They have Droids for that.  

Rey Escapes on her Own.
Solo and Chewie damage the Thermal Exhaust Port.
Chewie Shoots Emo-Vader.
Rey Fights Emo-Vader to 'death' while Finn lies dead in the snow.
PO, a GOD DAMN NPC blows up the Starkiller.

QuoteHere's where I can't argue with you: Pretty much every single thing involving Starkiller Base is nonsensical and/or poorly handled.

Ah, there is hope for you yet, young padawan.

QuoteIf you absolutely needed to keep the Starkiller Base stuff in the film, what I would have done is NOT destroy Hasnian Prime midway through the film. Instead, the Resistance becomes aware of the threat and launches a mission at the end of the film to prevent them from using their one-shot weapon to take out the Republic capital. The back half of the film could then have been used to clearly communicate the stakes involved before the weapon is fired, and then a desperate assault would be launched in an effort to blow up the weapon before it's fired...

... and, importantly, it would fail. The plucky heroes don't destabilize the weapon at the last minute. It fires. The Republic capital is destroyed with the audience fully understanding the implications of that as it happens.

Not only would that have given the opportunity for a more coherent narrative, the inversion from ANH and ROTJ would have made the inclusion of a planet-killer more acceptable in general: It would be playing on one of the motifs of the saga instead of just repeating it.

SEE!!!!

There is the fun and tragedy of bad filmmaking.  While I've never read Octavia Butler (I have recently acquired two of her books, however...), she's long been a minor hero of mine due to her comments about becoming an author. When she watched a bad file she realized first that she could do better, and second that someone got paid to be that bad!

I love looking at the raw material of a terrible film and seeing all the little ways it could have been better, even great.

To be honest, I actually noted that Lawrence Kasadan (sp?) was a co-writer, and my little dig much earlier about the Progressive Stack comes from JJ Abrams deliberate inclusion of Ideology over story.  I could almost feel the flip from one writer to the second when Rey took over the plot from Finn.  In his rush to make a strong female lead he steamrolled right over the black guy, and wound up making a character so competent they are actually unlikeable.... to the point where the indecipherable Chewie would have been a preferable lead character.

Quote from: Spike;874867

QuoteFirst: No Bothan spies are present or mentioned in A New Hope.

First: Mon Mothma disagrees.  (https://youtu.be/CQeabed9N9M)

:hmm: I could have sworn that clip was from Return of the Jedi not A New Hope.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;874043Po Dameron is shown physically bloodied with a torture droid floating in the background (which is more physical damage than we see either Leia or Han suffer from their torture sessions) before Kylo Ren comes in and says, "I'm impressed that the torturers couldn't make you talk, so now I'm going to rip the answers out of you."

And yet, to me the torture felt rushed and superficial, unreal and kind of off, like most of the rest of the film. Partly because even though I liked that Po Dameron felt semi-adult (while Rey, Finn, Kylo & Hux(? - trenchcoat Nazi leader manboy all seemed childish or adolescent at best), there isn't much with which to get to relate to him before he's already captured.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;874042...
If you absolutely needed to keep the Starkiller Base stuff in the film, what I would have done is NOT destroy Hasnian Prime midway through the film. Instead, the Resistance becomes aware of the threat and launches a mission at the end of the film to prevent them from using their one-shot weapon to take out the Republic capital. The back half of the film could then have been used to clearly communicate the stakes involved before the weapon is fired, and then a desperate assault would be launched in an effort to blow up the weapon before it's fired...

... and, importantly, it would fail. The plucky heroes don't destabilize the weapon at the last minute. It fires. The Republic capital is destroyed with the audience fully understanding the implications of that as it happens.

Not only would that have given the opportunity for a more coherent narrative, the inversion from ANH and ROTJ would have made the inclusion of a planet-killer more acceptable in general: It would be playing on one of the motifs of the saga instead of just repeating it.

This brilliantly illustrates the problems with the lazy apathetic plot in TFA. As Spike also pointed out, it lacks so much continuity that many parts could be changed for the better to make a much more interesting film, without really having to alter a whole lot of the rest of it, since there is so little continuity. The plot variant Justin just outlined would make the story massively more interesting and original, and wouldn't even have taken a lot of changing to make it so.

Quote from: Bren;874921:hmm: I could have sworn that clip was from Return of the Jedi not A New Hope.

Yanno....


I'm not to proud to admit that I only remember that line being in A New Hope. For the purposes of an internet argument I was too damn lazy to rewatch the film itself to verify.

Besides, that would have necessitated delaying the end of my Farscape Marathon.  Peacekeeper Wars was both better and worse than I remembered.

So.  Points to whomever claims definitive proof I guess. Doesn't change my original point. Bothan Spies bring Death Star Weakness, and pretty much just that... well, that and dying.

Finn brings Death Star Weakness... and makes with the dying! (Oh, Crap! Missed that!!! lol me!), thus Finn is just a new take on Bothan Spies.  

Death Star One or Two is actually irrelevant to the point.

I really do not see the problem with Maz having a giant sky hologram.  Normally it displays insipid stuff aggrandizing the ancient lady.  But for something as important as star systems blowing up, it displays the important news items of the day.

Quote from: Spike;874961Yanno....


I'm not to proud to admit that I only remember that line being in A New Hope. For the purposes of an internet argument I was too damn lazy to rewatch the film itself to verify.

Your memory is wrong. There are no Bothans in a New Hope. No Mon Mothma either. You can take my word for it or you can go look it up yourself. As the saying goes, the truth is out there.

Now in a New Hope princess Leia got the plans to the Death Star, downloaded the plans to R2D2, and the droid brought the details to the Rebellion so they could find a flaw. In Return of the Jedi, Bothan spies procured the location of the second Death Star, the plans, and inaccurate information about its lack of readiness. The implication is that Palpatine allowed the information leak but made sure the information on the state of readiness of the "fully operational battle station" was misreported as part of his trap for the Alliance and Luke Skywalker. Now your recollection being wrong isn't a huge mistake, but it does make me kind of doubt your recollection of the first movies in general and how well they hang together in particular.

In any case the argument about which of the Star Wars movies has the most plot holes doesn't particularly interest me. It's space opera. My expectation of plot is not all that high and that's exactly what Abrams delivered. I liked the movie, but then I came into it with very low expectations about everything.

Quote from: Old One Eye;874992I really do not see the problem with Maz having a giant sky hologram.  Normally it displays insipid stuff aggrandizing the ancient lady.  But for something as important as star systems blowing up, it displays the important news items of the day.

That's not half bad. Have you considered forwarding your resume to J.J. Abrams and company? :)

Eh.  We started with the Bothans, and now I see Mon Mothma isn't listed in IMDB as appearing in A New Hope. Oh well.  Of course, now I'm finding it impossible to find the briefing for the Battle of Yavin on youtube, which means I'm gonna have to watch the whole damn thing.

Luckily my critique doesn't hang on fine details of the older movies. Still.. I shall hang my head in shame for at least the rest of the day.

Quote from: Bren;875039That's not half bad. Have you considered forwarding your resume to J.J. Abrams and company? :)

To be a GM is to constantly train in coming up with half-assed explanations.  Spike sounds much more like a player than a GM.

From the script (http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html):

       It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships,
        striking from a hidden base, have won their first
        victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

        During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal
        secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the
        Death Star, an armored space station with enough
        power to destroy an entire planet.

        Pursued by the Empire's sinister agents, Princess
        Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of
        the stolen plans that can save her people and
        restore freedom to the galaxy...

Both ANH and ROTJ involve spies. In ANH "Rebel spies". In ROTJ "Bothan spies".

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen
from the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC,
General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace and
justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke's whereabouts . . . .http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/star-wars-the-force-awakens-opening-crawl.html

To me, the ANH crawl makes sense, and explains the situation that is the focus of the film.

To me, the TFA crawl reads like an inept aping of the style without anything like the substance. It seems borderline incoherent. Why did the FIRST ORDER need Luke to leave to rise from the ashes of the Empire? What sort of a thing IS the FIRST ORDER, besides "sinister" (I'm still going with Boy Band & fan club)? Why is the FIRST ORDER, which apparently needed Luke to be missing before rising, not resting to try to destroy someone who's vanished? If the (new?) REPUBLIC is a republic, and the FIRST ORDER is not the Galactic Empire, why is there something called the RESISTANCE, and what sort of thing is that? Was this written by a non-native English speaker, or someone who just dislikes using appropriate words for things, or do they dislike things making sense so much that these things actually just make no real sense (I'm going with that last explanation until I hear of a theory that more closely fits the evidence I know of). Ok, so Leia's obsessed with finding Luke too, and has a "clue" and is sending one guy to follow up on it... wow that's really a meaningful setup for a galactic war, isn't it... not?

And then we see a Star Destroyer just happens to show up there too, and we never get any reason (do we?) how it showed up there at the same time, or how it is attacking the one desert hippie camp where Po Dameron is AT THAT MOMENT having a conversation with a plot-sacrifice character. And then they kill everyone there besides Po for no apparent reason except "bad guys". And then they try to capture a droid by destroying another random crappy desert settlement with TIE fighters, and blowing up ships it might be on, because that's a great way to capture a droid intact, right? Let the making-zero-sense flow through you...

Back to the point of comparison with ANH and ROTJ about how in those films it took stolen schematic data and plans: In TFA, they send Han & Chewie with two new adolescent strangers to improvise a way to make a weakness for what looks like 12 X-Wings. No intel needed, really, yuk yuk nudge wink.

Of course, in TFA it's also ridiculous how/why the Resistance base (?!) is also apparently a vital and immobile target. Also how again is its location known? Is it just my memory, or did they go from rescuing Han by tracking the Falcon themselves, to deciding to fly the "track me anywhere in the galaxy immediately" Falcon right to their secret base? Or if not, then how did the New Kids Empire know what to shoot their stupidly powerful weapon at? If they knew where it was before, why not just send a Star Destroyer, especially since the Resistance base seems to only have 12 X-Wings? Oh, and BTW, when the 12 X-Wings & Leia's ugly box-shaped landing craft showed up for some reason (?) to rescue the Falcon (?) why did Kylo and the New Kids Empire run away with a teenage girl captive, instead of either looking for BB8 (their supposed reason for being there), or stay and try to destroy the Resistance (surely a Star Destroyer and its squadrons of TIE fighters is a match for some X-Wings, and it's job is to fight them, no?)

All I see is nonsense that makes no sense, isn't even trying to make sense, and is probably actively trying to not make sense.

Skarg, you just reminded me of something I noticed, but haven't had a chance to verify.

All the opening crawls tend to reference main characters, both good and bad, and set up the overall plot.  Clearly, ANH doesn't reference Luke Skywalker in any way, or Han Solo, but it does reference both Leia and Vader (as I recall).

The Force Awakens seems to depart from this tradition by wibbling on for a bit about stuff happening but refusing to reference any character that is going to appear on screen by name.  Po is mentioned, but as the rebellion's greatest pilot rather than by name... and he's a minor character.

The New Order is name checked, as is Luke Skywalker, but the New Order isn't a person and Luke doesn't really appear in the movie in any practical sense (but, yes: he literally does appear in the film...).

Just a passing thought

Quote from: Spike;875043Still.. I shall hang my head in shame for at least the rest of the day.

An appropriate punishment. But now I'm sad because I didn't see your post until my next day.

well, by my local clock you get a good 26 more minutes of head hanging in shame from me, so it should all work out just fine.

Quote from: Skarg;875060All I see is nonsense that makes no sense, isn't even trying to make sense, and is probably actively trying to not make sense.

Maybe I can address some of your concerns.  Bear in mind that I have only watched the movie once, and I am heavily biased in favor of it to the point that I am in the final stages of putting together an Ep VII timeline campaign.

TFA is not a stand alone movie, but rather, is the seventh in what is probably the most widely known fantasy mileui in existence.  Everyone in the audience should know who Luke is, know what jedi are, know that Luke is the last jedi, and know that Star Wars universe is set up to require jedi or everything goes to shit.  Luke missing is a very big deal.  There are no jedi to maintain peace and order.  

While the opening cawl does not make it clear, the film makes it obvious that the First Order is what happens with Hitler Youth Camp left to its own to fester for 30 years.  Logically it would be in some bum fuck part of the galaxy nobody cares about.  The crawl lets us know they are growing in power, and so, probably control a decent little chunk of the galaxy.  They are evil space nazis, so local systems would presumably not like being swallowed by the growing First Order, hence the Resistance.  Or if you prefer modern references:  First Order = ISIS, Republic = USA, Resistance = Syrian rebels.

We don't know how Max von Sydow has Luke's map or how Po knows to meet with him.  Presumably the same way Po knows is the exact same reason Kylo Ren knew von Sydow has the map.  It was probably a race to get there first, which is why Leia would send her best pilot.  He was not quick enough.

Kylo Ren has the scavenger village slaughtered because he is a space nazi.  And he almost certainly knew Sydow was on the Resistance side, and the villagers were probably not mere villagers but were Sydow's henchmen.  Since Po is the best pilot in the Resistance, Kylo probably knew who he was and wanted to capture him for some intel.

I assumed the TIEs shooting at Rey and Finn had picked up BB8's signature and are precise enough shots to avoid blasting it to smithereens.  Not to mention they will want to blow up any spaceship so BB8 stays grounded.

There was a scene in the movie where they came up with a plan to attack the base.  Han and Chewie are pulp hero legends (Star Wars universe runs on pulp, as established over the prior movies), and Finn is probably the most trained ground soldier in the Resistance (the Resistance did not send Rey, she was captured).

The attack on Starkiller was hastily put together, so it only included the assets available to the Resistance right then.  All they had on hand attacked; they did not have a big fleet.  The First Order appeared to be skimpy on military assets as well.  We are on the fringes of the galaxy, not the big galactic centers.

There is no reason to believe any location in the movie is a secret.  The First Order probably knows the Resistance base's location and vice versa.  I cannot recall anyone saying either of the places were hidden.  The movie is where the war starts, nobody was actively at war prior to the movie.

The Resistance base is in the First Order's back yard actively causing them problems, and it has Leia who is also a galactic hero of the type who can galvanize the Republic to action now that she has proof of the First Order's  intentions.  Get rid of Leia and there is nobody to have the galactic-wide gravitas she can command.

By the by, her ugly box ship looked to be a converted B Wing - very much like there had been a galactic war with lots of military ships to be converted for civilian uses.

Quote from: Bren;874803What's his best work?

IMO, The first season of Alias. Filmwise, I'd actually go with TFA as his best work (although I'm generally a fan of everything he's directed except Into Darkness).

Quote from: Spike;874867If we agree, and for the purposes of expedition we will, that the plot of A New Hope is to "Destroy the Death Star", note how Luke's motivation (Rescue the Princess) and Han Solo's Motivation (Get PAID by the Princess) actually serve to reinforce the plot.

... except those aren't their motivations at the beginning of the film. Han Solo doesn't even know the Princess exists until halfway through the film. His motivation is just "get paid" until the last 5 minutes of the film, and it explicitly doesn't reinforce the plot.

QuoteContrast with the Force Awakens. If Finn follows his motivation (to 'escape the New Order'), he walks away from the plot by going with the random merchant mercenaries.

I become increasingly unconvinced that you've actually watched A New Hope. Quick question for you: What's the first thing Han Solo does after he gets paid?

Quote

QuoteFirst: No Bothan spies are present or mentioned in A New Hope.

First: Mon Mothma disagrees.

And now I'm 100% convinced that you have never seen A New Hope.

QuoteFrom the point of view of the audience, Rey doesn't receive a heroic calling

The only way they could have made the heroic calling more explicit is if they had Maz actually say, "This is your heroic calling."

QuoteAgain: after the fact justifications do not make up for glaring plot holes and random convienently timed actions.

I'm just not convinced by your theory that when Yoda says "there is another" in Empire Strikes Back that this is a "glaring plot hole" because it wasn't explained until Return of the Jedi.

QuoteNow, its been about two-three weeks, but I am pretty damn sure the comment about there being an 'awakening' happens BEFORE all that tie fighter crap.

Nope.

Quote from: Spike;875089The Force Awakens seems to depart from this tradition by wibbling on for a bit about stuff happening but refusing to reference any character that is going to appear on screen by name.

Skarg literally just quoted the scroll mentioning Leia. So have you now forgotten that she appears in TFA?

I'd normally assume not. But with all these basic factual errors you're making, it's hard to tell.

In any case, you've demonstrated remarkable ignorance of both A New Hope and The Force Awakens. I find it unremarkable now that your analysis of these films is so far divorced from what we see are on screen.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;875116The only way they could have made the heroic calling more explicit is if they had Maz actually say, "This is your heroic calling."

I had this exact thought when I watched the movie.

Quote from: Bren;874835Our Star Wars campaign had/has holoshows which we envisioned as being a lot like TV shows. Sometimes like TV shows of the 1950s or early 1960s.

Never seen any Abrahms TV. What's the selling point for Fringe? What did you like about it? Why should one watch it?

It's hard to tell the selling points without spoilers, but the big one is it's a fully coherent story. It's along the X-Files...except it all makes sense in the end (most impressive considering the time travel elements...yes, you can eventually pick it apart, but it's not nearly so hideous as the SW movie), and you get actual answers. That's pretty huge for this genre, and I strongly recommend it for that alone.

Quote from: Old One Eye;875114...
TFA is not a stand alone movie, but rather, is the seventh in what is probably the most widely known fantasy mileui in existence.  Everyone in the audience should know who Luke is, know what jedi are, know that Luke is the last jedi, and know that Star Wars universe is set up to require jedi or everything goes to shit.  Luke missing is a very big deal.  There are no jedi to maintain peace and order.

While the opening cawl does not make it clear, the film makes it obvious that the First Order is what happens with Hitler Youth Camp left to its own to fester for 30 years.  Logically it would be in some bum fuck part of the galaxy nobody cares about.  The crawl lets us know they are growing in power, and so, probably control a decent little chunk of the galaxy.  They are evil space nazis, so local systems would presumably not like being swallowed by the growing First Order, hence the Resistance.  Or if you prefer modern references:  First Order = ISIS, Republic = USA, Resistance = Syrian rebels.

I get that Luke is the legendary last Jedi, and that it's important whether Jedi and/or dark side people are around. Comparing the two crawls though, one is about a galactic-scale civil war, and the Death Star about to shut it down unless the plans can somehow be used to stop it - the other is about two rival factions looking for someone who went into hiding.

The name Resistance would make more sense to me (and match the WW2 reference) if it were a group of resistance fighters inside the space being taken over by the First Order, but the movie seems to lack enough sense of scale or location or of the galactic situation to make a difference. The impression I got was the Resistance is just the people who still hang out with Leia and who fight people who dress like the Empire.

The name First Order I can't take seriously, but also seems nonsensical without anyone ever talking about in what sense it is either an Order, or in what sense it is First. Are there other Orders? And what is it? Just a group like the Hitler Youth? Is there an associated government, industry or population base? Do they just have one base, one star destroyer, and a bunch of TIE fighters and brainwashed orphans?

Mostly rhetorical questions. I'm slightly curious, but mainly I'm relating my impression on having seen the film (once), and that it leaves all these things vague or unexplained and seeming to make little sense.

It seems to me there's a huge shift in how the plot logic works, comparing ANH to TFA: In ANH, the heroes are struggling against massive daunting physical obstacles to destroy the Death Star before it's power and terror effect shuts down the resistance to the Empire, in situations that seem to make basic sense. In TFA, the film half-borrows the plot with the wanted droid and Starkiller Base, but it doesn't borrow the plot logic, and the plot doesn't seem to make sense in the same way - instead of "ok, I get the situation" I was thinking "why is this happening this way?" in most scenes.

QuoteWe don't know how Max von Sydow has Luke's map or how Po knows to meet with him.  Presumably the same way Po knows is the exact same reason Kylo Ren knew von Sydow has the map.  It was probably a race to get there first, which is why Leia would send her best pilot.  He was not quick enough.

Kylo Ren has the scavenger village slaughtered because he is a space nazi.  And he almost certainly knew Sydow was on the Resistance side, and the villagers were probably not mere villagers but were Sydow's henchmen.  Since Po is the best pilot in the Resistance, Kylo probably knew who he was and wanted to capture him for some intel

Likely. I suppose the distinction I've been trying to communicate is that I prefer a story to make some effort to explain why things are happening, and for them to often seem appropriate, rather than just have things happen and leave us to figure them out if we even care. I get that many others didn't get rubbed the way I did.

So if I were going to edit those parts for continuity without changing what mainly happened, my changes would be something like:
* von Sydow makes it clear he is giving data which Poe puts in BB8 (maybe I forgot seeing that)
* von Sydow's location has some clear reason for existence that has something to do with why he's there, how it's findable, and how Kylo Ren will treat the people there - like they're a Light Side monastery, so it's a landmark, and Kylo might be hostile to the people there. (As it was, it seemed to be a no-reason-to-exist 50-person camp in the middle of the sand, with ultra-generic innocent NPC level-zero villagers.)
* There should be some indication of why/how Kylo shows up there and then too, and what the heck he is doing there and why he acts the way he does. Why kill this one settlement on a planet? If he's following the same clue looking for Luke, why doesn't he interrogate everyone and take and analyze all computer/data found there? Why don't they notice there's an X-Wing parked right there until they land troops and then shoot it with hand weapons? So I'd have some indication they do see the X-Wing, have something ready to blast it if it takes off, land troops nearby and get them to the X-Wing before the alarm is raised, then march in (not guns blazing) and capture and interrogate everyone and take every electronic device. BB8 escapes by doing something clever, like hiding in sand, mud, a latrine, or inside an animal or something.

QuoteI assumed the TIEs shooting at Rey and Finn had picked up BB8's signature and are precise enough shots to avoid blasting it to smithereens.  Not to mention they will want to blow up any spaceship so BB8 stays grounded.

But you're having to invent that, and if they can track BB8 (how, especially if they never had found him?) then why can't they find him on the next planet they're supposed to be trying to find him but instead blow up everything and leave before getting him?

QuoteThere was a scene in the movie where they came up with a plan to attack the base.  Han and Chewie are pulp hero legends (Star Wars universe runs on pulp, as established over the prior movies), and Finn is probably the most trained ground soldier in the Resistance (the Resistance did not send Rey, she was captured).

Oh right, Rey was captured. So they sent three guys... even more silly. "We're pulp hero legends, done this before, don't need much plan yuk yuk" doesn't seem like much of a plan to me.

Finn, the janitor ex-stormtrooper who turned traitor on his first "kill the unarmed villagers" mission, is the Resistance's most trained ground soldier? Sounds like it's even less significant whether the Resistance base gets blown up or not. Ok, maybe sending three people, none of whom are really in the Resistance, with no real plan, is perfect. ;-o

Even I can see slightly more reason than that. In theory, Finn was their guy who knew something about the preposterous layout of the childishly-named Starkiller Base. At least it makes a hint of sense to bring him. Imagine it's a game, and you can either send three guys, or three guys and a bunch of commandos: what would you choose?

QuoteThe attack on Starkiller was hastily put together, so it only included the assets available to the Resistance right then.  All they had on hand attacked; they did not have a big fleet.  The First Order appeared to be skimpy on military assets as well.  We are on the fringes of the galaxy, not the big galactic centers.

If all they have is 12 fighters, why don't they just leave rather than staying to get blown up? And why would the First Order bother to destroy the whole planet they're on? Why not just send the Star Destroyer we know they have? And if they have 12 fighters, how do they survive the 45 minutes or so it takes the 3-4 guys they send to hike back and forth through the woods, infiltrate the complex, set demo charges, converse with and fight Kylo ren, etc., when having to combat an entire planet full of TIE fighters? They even show them getting blown up fairly frequently, but only when on-screen. Apparently they all take a break when not on camera. Or they really had more like 200 X-Wings, and took massive casualties but they aren't shown because Disney or only-heroes-must-be-important, or just general dislike of having things make sense or be in accurate proportions.

QuoteThere is no reason to believe any location in the movie is a secret.  The First Order probably knows the Resistance base's location and vice versa.  I cannot recall anyone saying either of the places were hidden.  The movie is where the war starts, nobody was actively at war prior to the movie.

I can think of several reasons:
* If Kylo knew there was a Resistance base with only 12 X-Wings, he should have sent his Star Destroyer there immediately to go blow them the heck up.
* If the Resistance knew there was a planet carved impossibly into a Death Star, they would/should have been extremely interested in dealing with it (see previous Star Wars films), and the New Republic would (if they had any IQ points) also be interested, not have their fleet parked on the current capital planet, etc etc.
* von Sydow seemed to be huddled in a hut in a 50-man generic camp on Dakku, which looks like nowhere to me in a whole galaxy full of inhabited planets, so pretty much no one should know where he is, let alone that he might know where Luke is, and without some specific event, it seems improbable that Kylo would know and arrive at exactly the same time, and that Po would have no clue, and that if all of that were true, Kylo would just kill everyone rather than searching and questioning.
* Even if the Falcon can be tracked from anywhere once flying (groan), it still takes a fair amount of time to hyperjump around the galaxy (see Episode IV), so it makes little sense or is ridiculously close timing for them to jump to deep space, then have time for ½ a conversation before Han arrives, and then they have the same brief pause before two other groups also show up at the same place.
* Not to mention it seems like being able to track the Falcon immediately anywhere is incompatible with a galaxy where moving data around needs to be done by dragging a droid around.
* If Han is supposed to still be a clever experienced person, and Leia a general, they sure do a poor job of avoiding what should be obviously vulnerable situations, Han getting his friend's bar destroyed and himself cut off from his ship, and Leia having a static "base" that the enemy knows where it is, yet it is vital it not get attacked. If this isn't a TV Trope, it ought to be: "New director/writer doesn't really like previous director's heroes, so he has previously-super-competent characters be super-incompetent, so he can kill them off and/or make them need the new heroes."

QuoteThe Resistance base is in the First Order's back yard actively causing them problems, and it has Leia who is also a galactic hero of the type who can galvanize the Republic to action now that she has proof of the First Order's  intentions.  Get rid of Leia and there is nobody to have the galactic-wide gravitas she can command.

If Leia's so great, why does she have a known static base that she and her people can't escape and that has only 12 X-Wings? If no location is secret, why doesn't she just show the Republic a Polaroid of Starkiller base as proof? Why not a long time ago, maybe sometime during the digging of the impossibly-large equatrial trench that is just there to make it obviously a Death Star? Why wasn't it mentioned in the crawl if known?

QuoteBy the by, her ugly box ship looked to be a converted B Wing - very much like there had been a galactic war with lots of military ships to be converted for civilian uses.

That's actually interesting to me. I wish they'd shown it long enough for me to see that. I just got the impression it looked like a mobile-home-shaped rectangle of nothing to me.

Quote from: Skarg;875609The name Resistance would make more sense to me (and match the WW2 reference) if it were a group of resistance fighters inside the space being taken over by the First Order...

That's exactly it.

(Not denying the film desperately needed to spend more time clearly establishing the politics and the stakes involved, but the relationship between the Republic and the Resistance is spelled out in the movie.)

These deleted scenes are pretty interesting: http://starwarsreporter.com/2016/01/27/the-force-awakens-10-deleted-scenes-we-never-got-to-see/

So.... they cut out some stuff that would have contributed to the story to keep the pacing up. Got it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;875682These deleted scenes are pretty interesting: http://starwarsreporter.com/2016/01/27/the-force-awakens-10-deleted-scenes-we-never-got-to-see/

Thanks!

Quote from: Werekoala;875701So.... they cut out some stuff that would have contributed to the story to keep the pacing up. Got it.

There are always trade offs like that when they edit movies. Pacing was obviously something that was important (and I think you find many similar things in the original trilogy, where they probably could have slowed down to explain some things, but didn't in order to keep things moving). A lot of the stuff is still hinted at (like Maz). The whole thing explaining what the resistance is, I personally didn't find that particularly confusing (just like I didn't need them to explain to me how the Empire emerged from the Republic in the originals)..

A crazy waste of time I know but its been bothering me more and more ...

A plot out line for the Force Awakens that isn't more full of plot holes than a swiss cheese and whilst it might bend, doesn't entirely ignore the in universe laws of physics.

Opening Crawl ...

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away ...
Episode VII
THE FORCE AWAKENS
A New Republic has emerged following a bloody war after the death of the Emperor. The Republic struggles with its new responsibilities and the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire following the disappearance of Luke Skywalker and the destruction of his new Jedi academy.
In the part of the Galaxy where The First Order has taken control former senator Leia leads a Resistance with secret support from the Republic.
Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke's whereabouts....



Scene 1 - Desert Planet Jakku

An X-wing flies over a world dotted with wrecks of Empire and Rebellion ships. It lands in a makeshift pad out in the desert. A pilot (Poe) and his droid companion (BB8) disembark. They are met by a small entourage led by a female Twilek – blue with two tentacles on their head (note not an Obi Wan look alike). The two share a wary conversation but eventually the pilot reveals he is here to collect a map fragment and proves his credentials with a token from Senator Leia. The woman demonstrates the veracity of the map by displaying it through the droid BB8's hologram unit. She stresses that this is highly valuable and was trusted to her.
At this point a squadron of ships arrive, the New Order. Stormtroopers led by Vader look alike Kylo Ren zap everyone. The female tells Poe to leave, the map is still in the droid. The Female pulls a lightsabre and goes to engage Kylo Ren. The two fight whilst the fight kicks off and we highlight one particular StormTrooper who seems reluctant at the slaughter. In the lightsabre conflict we hint at some backstory. The Female is obviously less experienced and weaker. Kylo reveals she never completed her training and kills her but destroys her lightsabre in the process. After she dies he finds the token from Leia and crushes it.
Poe is pinned down by a group of Stormtroopers led by a Chrome clad officer. Everyone with him is killed but he manages to send BB8 away with the map data still in it. Phasma manages to take down Poe, which some cool combat weapon.
Dragging Poe away she orders the remaining people slaughtered and our reluctant Stormtrooper finding himself surrounded by the victims has an awakening, an 'are we the baddies' moment (as opposed to seeing his mate killed and then realising his own mortality).
The Stormtroopers leave.

Scene2

A young woman, Rey scavenges wreckage from a fallen Star Cruiser. She demonstrates technical skill, resourcefulness and bravery.
She piles up the collection of junk and transfers it to her speeder bike and drives into the nearest town.
There she heads into a beat up compound where an alien dude, Unkar Plutt, offers her a ¼ ration for the junk she has collected etc.
In the following banter the junk dealer explains that he is a collector and will pay for rare items. He states he already holds the Millennium Falcon. Rey dismisses the claim as ridiculous and states that that is just an old junk Corellian YT-1300 Freighter and everyone that has one claims theirs is the Millennium Falcon.
She heads back to her 'camp' in an old wreck and eats. She rescues BB-8 from a Teedo scavenger. She can understand his beeps and whistles, and offers him shelter for the night.

Scene 3  - First Order Star Destroyer

On the First Order destroyer, Poe is unsuccessfully interrogated by the First Order. Kylo Ren is called in to use his Force powers to extract information from Poe about the whereabouts of the map. Poe resists, but ultimately divulges that the map is still on Jakku in his BB-8 unit.

Meanwhile Captain Phasma confronts FN-2187 about his behavior on Jakku. She orders him to take his unused blaster in for inspection and report to her division and ultimately reconditioning. Instead FN-2187 decides to run away. He needs a pilot to escape the star destroyer, so he rescues Poe, and the two board a black First Order TIE fighter and escape. Poe renames FN-2187 as Finn, and explains that he needs to return to Jakku to retrieve his droid as it contains data essential to the fight against the First Order and expertly pilots to an escape while Finn fires the ship's blasters. The fighter is hit by lasers from the destroyer and crash lands on Jakku. Finn ejects with Poe's jacket but the Tie Fighter screams off into the distance before crashing.


Scene 4 - Jakku

Finn wanders across the desert discarding his stormtrooper armor. Eventually, he arrives in Niima Outpost, the town where Rey trades scrap for food. While Finn is looking for water in the town, he sees Rey being accosted by two of Unkar Plutt's henchmen who are trying to make off with BB-8. He begins to rush to her aid, but before he gets far, Rey handily fights off her attackers using her staff. Clearly, she can handle herself. BB-8 spots Finn looking their way, and tells Rey that he is wearing Poe's jacket which they assume is stolen. Rey chases Finn down, knocks him to the ground and confronts Finn about the jacket. Finn tells them that Poe was captured by the First Order and that he helped him escape, but Poe was unfortunately killed. BB-8 is saddened and rolls off , but Rey assumes Finn is a resistance fighter. Finn lies, telling her he is indeed with the resistance. Rey excitedly tells Finn that BB-8 is on a secret mission. Finn tells her BB-8 is carrying data essential to the Resistance.
BB-8 returns and alerts Finn and Rey that they are in trouble. First Order stormtroopers are now looking for Finn and the BB-8 droid. Stormtroopers chase Finn, Rey and BB-8 through Niima Outpost and TIE fighters are called in and begin to bomb and strafe the space port destroying all viable ships. To make their escape, they break into Unkar Plutt's compound and steal the ship he claims was the Falcon to escape the First Order. Rey takes the pilot's seat while Finn mans the guns. Neither is confident in their abilities, and their lift off is rough, destroying a substantial portion of the town as they try to get off of the ground.. Rey flies through the wrecked ships in the desert of Jakku, occasionally scraping through the sands as they try to keep low to confuse the TIE fighter's tracking. Rey takes the Falcon into one of the Star Destroyers and just as the pursuing fighter locks onto their ship, she turns the Falcon out into the open, and performs a flip which allows Finn to fire successfully at the remaining fighter, taking it down. They head off, away from Jakku, and on toward the wider galaxy. Not having flown in years, the Falcon is not in good repair, and almost immediately requires an emergency patch. Rey begins repairing the ship while Finn admits to BB-8 he is not part of the resistance, but is still able to convince BB-8 to tell them where the Resistance base is.
When Rey eventually gets the Hyperdrive on line a Trojan program kicks in and whisks the ship out to an empty spot near a space station. The Hyperdrive then powers down.

Scene 5 – Maz's Cantina

Rey and Finn have no option but to dock at the space station. They arrive in a crowded cantina and end up nearly getting into fight when they are trying to trade for spares. Finn says they should dump the ship but Rey says it should be repairable and jokes that after all it is the Millennium Falcon not just any old ship.  They are saved from the fight by the Space Station's owner a diminutive female alien called Maz. Maz takes then into a back room and there is Han Solo and Chewie looking to get their ship back. Turns out eh Trojan was an old program Han had installed just before his ship was stolen and it triggers a homing beacon. He wants his ship back.
However, it appears Solo owes a couple of galaxy wide syndicates money and his presence on the station has been spotted. There is a fight in which Chewie demonstrates he is actually tough and Solo shoots a bounty hunter before he can shoot him. He is taken to task by Maz but assure her, 'Look you know me I never shoot first'.
They go to take a look at the Falcon and Solo is impressed with Rey's skills, whilst Fin bandages up chewie who was injured in the scrap. Finn reveals that the droid BB8 has information that is essential to the Resistance. However the alerts go off as their location has been uncovered by the First Order. The First order easily disable the Stations defences and board. Battle ensues.
In the fight Solo and Chewie get to demonstrate they still have the moves, Finn gets to fight his old pals but Rey gets separated and ends up down in the bowls of the station fleeing Stormtroopers and Captain Phasma. She ends up in a vault where she finds Luke's old lightsabre. When she touches the lightsaber she experiences a frightening vision. The dream has the voices of old Jedi like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda. It flashes by quickly. She sees the hallways of Cloud City, a vision of Skywalker and R2-D2, a vision of Kylo Ren surrounded by bodies, thrusting his saber through the chest of a mysterious figure, a vision of herself being abandoned as a child on Jakku and finally she sees Ren pursing her in a snowy forest.

Rey is frightened by her vision and refuses Luke's lightsaber, running out of the vault and into the arms of Phasma. She is dragged into the main area with a bunch of other prisoners who are ordered killed but Ren arrives and seeing Rey gets 'force' feeling and says to Phasma, not this one and takes her prisoner back to his ship which departs.
The Resistance led by Leia now arrive and eliminate/drive off the rest of the Stormtroopers and rescue Solo, Chewie and Finn.  Maz explains that Rey has been captured before giving Lukes lightsaber to Finn and telling him he has to deliver it to Rey because it is calling to her. Han and Leia are reunited, but their relations are tense. It is revealed that Kylo Ren is actually their son. The heroes return to the Resistance Base, where Finn is reunited with Poe Dameron, who was not killed by the crash on Jakku. BB-8 is reunited with R2-D2 and C-3P0, but R2-D2 has been in shut down since Luke left many years before.

Scene 6 – First Order Base – not a starkiller in sight......

Rey wakes to find her self locked in an interrogation chair like the one we have seen earlier in Poe's interrogation scene. Kylo Ren and she converse, and he removes his mask, revealing his face to her; he is a young man. Ren uses the Force to read Rey's mind. He senses her lonely life on Jakku, her dreams of a far away island and the closeness she feels towards Han Solo. She reacts with hostility but seems unable to keep him from reading her thoughts.

When he tries to extract the information about the map from her mind, however, he runs up against an unexpected barrier. Rey is not only able to resist his further probing, but pushes back into Ren's mind, and tells him that he is afraid that he will never be as strong as Darth Vader. Ren is shaken by this and by her obvious strength with the Force, and he runs away to meet with Snoke in search of guidance on how to proceed.

Kylo Ren and General Hux are scolded for not retrieving the droid, and Ren's inability to crack Rey's mind, by the Supreme Leader, who is only revealed as a massive hologram of an old and scarred man seated on a throne towering over them.

Scene 7 - Resistance Base

The Rebel leaders are examining the map hologram from BB8. Its just a fraction of what they need to find Luke. Leia explains he had gone looking for the orginal Jedi Temple after his academy and padawns were destroyed by his star pupil her son Ben.
Leia and Han have a side conversation about their son they return to the main chamber to find Finn pushing to go to the First Order base to rescue Rey. The resistance generals refuse saying it's too big a risk to save just one girl. Maz speaks up saying that the girls has affinity to the Force and will be essential if they hope to fine Luke Skywalker.
Finn then speaks out to say that the First Order have been working on a new weapon a missile that can travel through Hyperspace and evade planetary shielding. They call it the StarKiller.
Han agrees to take Finn and rescue Rey. The Resistance will not risk their forces and Leia refuses to back an all out attack but as an aside tells Han to bring back their son.

Scene 8 – First Order Base

We get a shot of the Starkiller missiles. They are each the size of a Star Destroyer and extend up from the base like tower blocks.
Han and Chewie come out of hyperspace on the planet in order to evade the shields, and crash land in the snowy forest. Finn reveals he does not know how to disable the shields; he only came back to rescue Rey. They capture Captain Phasma after an epic fight with Chewie.

Meanwhile Rey hears a voice in her head, we recognize it as Luke's he tells her to use the Force and probe the mind of her guards, she uses the mind-trick power to escape from the stormtroopers guarding her cell. She sneaks through the Base to the hanger to escape.
After disabling Phasma Finn, Han and Chewbacca head off to find Rey, whilst BB8 hacks the bases computer system, but they quickly discover that she has freed herself when they spot her scaling a wall of the base. They rush to meet her. She is surprised that they would come back for her, and embraces Finn when she learns from Chewbacca that it was Finn's idea that they come to the base to save her.
From BB8 the group learn that the StarKIller missiles are complete and directed at a number of capital planets of the Republic.
After raiding an arms depot for explosives they decide to destroy the missiles on the ground aware that this might destroy the planet and them with it.
Han tells BB8 to send one last message to Leia and the group sneak off to plant explosives.
Han and Chewbacca improvise a plan to plant explosives to blow up the rockets. They split up to lay explosives in separate locations. Kylo Ren finds that Rey has escaped and has a paddy. He searches the base for Rey. He stalks off onto a catwalk where Han spots him. Han approaches him on the catwalk, calling him Ben. He asks his son to return with him, and Ren offers his lightsaber, but then activates it and kills his father, pushing him off into the pit. Chewbacca, having watched the entire conversation, fires on Ren, hitting him in the side.
Poe and a squad of X-Wing fighters arrive having left against resistance orders but with Leia's blessing. BB8 manages to lower the shields in time and the ships attack the rockets. However 3 of them are launched and slip into Hyperspace destroying their targets.
The X wings bomb the base destroying its fighter capability and wrecking it. The base is in ruins the remaining Stromtroopers pun out into the snow and encounter the Resistance landing party.

Kylo Ren confronts Finn and Rey in the snowy forest. Ren is bleeding from his wound, but ignites his red fiery saber to fight. Rey raises her blaster to fire on Ren, but he throws her against a tree with a Force push and she lies unconscious in the snow. Finn rushes to her aid and then uses the blue lightsaber to fight Ren. Finn quickly finds himself outmatched. He manages to touch Ren with the saber, but this only enrages him.

Rey is revived by the sound of Finn's screams as he is burned by Ren's saber. Ren easily disarms Finn, who drops the saber into the snow. Ren tries to use the Force to pull the lightsaber to himself. It hurtles towards him but then flies past. Ren turns to discover the saber in Rey's hands. They begin to fight. Rey initially fights unsuccessfully and desperately, and begins to run from Ren. He pursues her and pins her against the edge of a cliff. Ren offers to teach her the Force, but this only ends up reminding her to tap into its power, and she hears that voice again. She closes her eyes for a moment of meditation and then attacks Ren with a new vigor and power. She rapidly gains the upper hand, extinguishes Ren's saber and cuts him on the arm and across the face.

As Ren lays on the floor looking up at the girl that beat him he is ready for the coup d'etat but Rey just turns and leaves him lying beaten in the snow and helps Finn. Chewbacca arrives in the Millennium Falcon to pick up both Finn and Rey. The Falcon and X-Wings escape having dealt a heavy blow to the First Order. Back at the Resistance base, Leia and Rey embrace in sadness, around them Resistance leaders are in mourning haviing seen the destruction of the Republic homeworlds.

R2-D2 awakens and reveals the missing part of the map to Lukes location. Finn is still unconscious, and Rey tells him goodbye while he rests. Rey and Chewbacca leave in the Falcon, Rey taking the pilot's seat. They fly to the planet indicated by the map, where Rey carefully climbs a rocky island. When she reaches the top, she finds an old cloaked and bearded Jedi with a metal hand. It is Luke Skywalker. Rey wordlessly offers him the lightsaber.

The Plunkitt review of Ep VII is on YouTube. I think it may be longer than the film itself.

The first HOUR is actually not about Ep VII, but is about Internet commenters, the annoying Circle Theory posted by some fan, and about Lucas selling to Disney and about the wave of pro-Prequel puff on the Internet that mysteriously and stupidly appeared after the sale to Disney. Though mostly irrelevant to Ep VII, I agreed with most of it and there were some sound bite conclusions that perfectly matched my attitude to the prequels, the stupid fan theories of Lucas grand plan genius, and the beneath-contempt "the prequels are as good as the OT" idiocy. There's one sound bite that also applies to my feelings about most crappy sci fi films and some games and books, which I'll have to go back and find so I can quote and link to it instead of descending into explaining to people why I'm annoyed by stupid lazy forced formulaic storytelling in films and games.

When he actually gets to the Ep VII review, he repeats the obligatory observation that it's an ANH clone, thankfully pretty quickly, and then makes various points, some of which match my own (The "Resistance"???, the WTF seeing Starkiller Base blow up planets from other star systems), though he doesn't match my particular outrages exactly, but close enough. There's a bit ranting about the "diversity" casting, and a couple bits I don't really agree with (e.g. he says he wanted some romance... wat?). I like that he called out the baton vs saber fight as annoying/silly.

And of course there was a disturbing amount of random misogyny and "I'm a serial killer" jokes and it concludes with an attempt to completely gross out everyone with literal projectile diarrhea combat followed by an offer of food. . . . at least that "achieves" a level of disrespect for crappy film-making that resembles my level of disappointment. ;-)

There was a lot of meat on the Plinkett prequel videos. Lucas may be a hack, but he's a sincere hack.

Ep VII... it's been beaten to death at this point. It's a corporate clone of the original trilogy. Nothing unusual or interesting to comment on.

Except that it made a fucking boatload of money for Disney. (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm)

Quote from: jeff37923;923777Except that it made a fucking boatload of money for Disney. (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm)

Think of how much more money it could have made if it was good. :D

Quote from: jeff37923;923777Except that it made a fucking boatload of money for Disney. (http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm)

All the big, splashy movies make big money. That's nothing out of the ordinary.

Quote from: CRKrueger;923821Think of how much more money it could have made if it was good. :D

Quote from: Ratman_tf;923858All the big, splashy movies make big money. That's nothing out of the ordinary.

I don't know about all that. If you clicked on the link, you would see that over 2 billion dollars worldwide is a pretty huge number.

Besides, my inner 8 year old loved it. :p

Quote from: jeff37923;923947I don't know about all that. If you clicked on the link, you would see that over 2 billion dollars worldwide is a pretty huge number.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/world/

It's a respectable number, sure, #11 when adjusted for inflation.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

QuoteBesides, my inner 8 year old loved it. :p

I still like the original Transformers 1984 movie. If you weren't bothered by the warts in Force Awakens, then great. I couldn't get past them.

OH, did Star Wars VII make a lot of money? How surprising!

Was it because of the parts that didn't make much sense? Who actually thinks that?

Who here thinks that it would be hard to come up with a better series of events than this: a few minutes after Han Solo finds the Falcon in deep space, a band of Scottish mafia appear on Han Solo's own ship, immediately followed by a band of space Yakuza, without Han knowing about it. Han can't think of any way out of it and they'd all die then and there except of an accident releasing CGI comedy monsters. Finn would die anyway except for Rey pushing a button at exactly the right instant. Then Han, who apparently knows this means the Falcon is somehow being tracked by various people no matter where in the galaxy, Han who is supposed to be clever and cool and have a lifetime of experience, decides to go to a cantina planet and meet a friend and hang out with them with zero urgency, far from his own ship, and not mention there might be violent people coming. Who can't think of a better or more sense-making story than that?

Who can't think of a better way to kill off Han Solo?

Who thinks making a film stupid is a good idea, when you have gazillions of budget?

Quote from: Skarg;924259OH, did Star Wars VII make a lot of money? How surprising!

Was it because of the parts that didn't make much sense? Who actually thinks that?

Who here thinks that it would be hard to come up with a better series of events than this: a few minutes after Han Solo finds the Falcon in deep space, a band of Scottish mafia appear on Han Solo's own ship, immediately followed by a band of space Yakuza, without Han knowing about it. Han can't think of any way out of it and they'd all die then and there except of an accident releasing CGI comedy monsters. Finn would die anyway except for Rey pushing a button at exactly the right instant. Then Han, who apparently knows this means the Falcon is somehow being tracked by various people no matter where in the galaxy, Han who is supposed to be clever and cool and have a lifetime of experience, decides to go to a cantina planet and meet a friend and hang out with them with zero urgency, far from his own ship, and not mention there might be violent people coming. Who can't think of a better or more sense-making story than that?

Who can't think of a better way to kill off Han Solo?

Who thinks making a film stupid is a good idea, when you have gazillions of budget?

Your tears of impotent rage are a like a fresh spring shower to me.....

Quote from: jeff37923;923947I don't know about all that. If you clicked on the link, you would see that over 2 billion dollars worldwide is a pretty huge number.

Besides, my inner 8 year old loved it. :p

Also the reviews are pretty favorable. I think any improvements people might want to make could actually have hurt it. They made a film for global release that would please as the biggest number of people possible. I'd say they achieved that.

Quote from: Skarg;924259Who can't think of a better way to kill off Han Solo?

What would have been better?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;924586

QuoteWho can't think of a better way to kill off Han Solo?

What would have been better?

I expect most RPG players would tend to be able to think of many ideas I'd like better. I think people just tend to accept what is and not try, and not question what they see much.

Apart from the whole universe of alternatives, I think even if you like the basic scene, that having Han walk slowly out to the middle of an absolutely exposed and vulnerable position like that is very silly. It exposes him and his friends to detection and gunning down by the many stormtroopers who should be just about to show up, turning victory into defeat and exposing himself to death or capture. Han's supposed to be savvy and interested in survival. Walking way out into the open of a massive central chamber like that when the alert has been raised is preposterous. Even if you think maybe Han is done and willing to sacrifice himself, for anyone who is still paying any mind to the situation, he's likely sacrificing Chewie and his companions to death. The only reason they don't die because of that move is that JJ & crew don't give a shit about anything making sense, least of all details like the situation, distances, time, logic, minor characters like stormtroopers, etc., and think no one else cares enough to have it make sense.

Ideally, however, if Ford was unwilling to keep playing Solo, I think they'd do better to have him go out in a worthy and needed way (needed by logical consequences of a situation that made some sense, and not needed by trying to make their lame emo-teen-villain more interesting). If Solo's going to die, I'd want it to be for a good rational reason that is consistent with the good parts of him as a character - the legendarily clever Solo, not the foolish incompetent TFA Solo, whose death accomplishes nothing but get him out of the way for the dull young new characters in their quests to be interesting.

The whole presentation of Han was an annoying disappointment to me, as he behaves like a not-particularly-competent fool more often than not.

Quote from: Skarg;924866I expect most RPG players would tend to be able to think of many ideas I'd like better. I think people just tend to accept what is and not try, and not question what they see much.

Apart from the whole universe of alternatives, I think even if you like the basic scene, that having Han walk slowly out to the middle of an absolutely exposed and vulnerable position like that is very silly. It exposes him and his friends to detection and gunning down by the many stormtroopers who should be just about to show up, turning victory into defeat and exposing himself to death or capture. Han's supposed to be savvy and interested in survival. Walking way out into the open of a massive central chamber like that when the alert has been raised is preposterous. Even if you think maybe Han is done and willing to sacrifice himself, for anyone who is still paying any mind to the situation, he's likely sacrificing Chewie and his companions to death. The only reason they don't die because of that move is that JJ & crew don't give a shit about anything making sense, least of all details like the situation, distances, time, logic, minor characters like stormtroopers, etc., and think no one else cares enough to have it make sense.

Ideally, however, if Ford was unwilling to keep playing Solo, I think they'd do better to have him go out in a worthy and needed way (needed by logical consequences of a situation that made some sense, and not needed by trying to make their lame emo-teen-villain more interesting). If Solo's going to die, I'd want it to be for a good rational reason that is consistent with the good parts of him as a character - the legendarily clever Solo, not the foolish incompetent TFA Solo, whose death accomplishes nothing but get him out of the way for the dull young new characters in their quests to be interesting.

The whole presentation of Han was an annoying disappointment to me, as he behaves like a not-particularly-competent fool more often than not.

Honestly that particular criticism seems a bit nitpicky to me (especially for a rompy adventure like Star Wars that is trying to appeal to a broad audience). I imagine that same logic applied to many similar situations in the original trilogy would yield the same criticism. The scene worked for me as a poignant Star Wars moment. I mean I think we got plenty of evidence of his cleverness, but this was a scene where he is dealing with his son, so I didn't expect him to outwit him. He was trying to redeem him (and we'll have to see over the course of the next two movies whether he failed or not). I thought that was pretty interesting because it sets up a redemption storyline for Kylo Ren. Him walking out exposed like that didn't strike me as all that unusual given that this is his son, who he probably hasn't seen in years and has been turned to the dark side (and Leia gave him the instruction to try to bring him back). I mean I guess from a purely tactical standpoint it wasn't a good idea, but I can see even Han Solo forgetting some of the stakes and taking a risk to redeem his own son. Also Han may be clever but he's never been terribly disciplined and some might even call him reckless. True, I suppose he could have been more concerned for Chewie and his friends I suppose, but in this case, I think the drama you get out of that choice, outweighs that in my mind (and it definitely isn't hard to believe that Han as a father would lose sight of those things in that moment).

It just sounds to me like you didn't notice or think about it, but when you do it even makes no real sense to you - you're just willing to overlook it. But I was trying to point out that the stupid part of it isn't at all necessary. It's like all the other parts of the movie that I can't stand, in that whoever invented the story and signed off on it just seems to have a massive vacuum around logical stuff that stands out glaringly to me, because it would not be particularly hard to avoid or change most of it. For me though, it just makes me balk hard, in ways that the OT films really don't. Giving things a pass because it's a fun romp and not terribly serious is one thing, and works for me for the OT's slips, but the TFA holes seem far far more gaping, at least as far as my sensibilities go.

Han doesn't seem capable at all to me in TFA (ok he can fly the Falcon, do the nonsense unbelievable shield timing thing, and shoot people - what else does he do right?). He starts out getting himself nearly killed and then proceeds to set them all up to be killed again, all because the Falcon is tracked and even though he must have used that tracking himself to find it, he takes zero precautions and three groups of opponents show up and get the drop on him. What kind of an idiot was running his character?

Say I tell you you get to play Han Solo in a Star Wars campaign. You've lost the Falcon but know it has some beacon on it that somehow despite all established Star Wars precedent will let you hyperspace to it 15 minutes after it goes into space again (...). So you've bought a gigantic ship that can swallow the Falcon and carry deadly illegal space monsters but the ship is the ugliest block of shit ever to taint Star Wars and you've lost all your crew but Chewie. What do you do as far as ship security? When the Falcon alarm goes off and you hyperjump to it, do you possibly consider some of the groups who want you dead might also show up, given that the crew you pissed off know you were sulking around hoping that would happen? Do you lock the doors to your ship? Do you set any kind of alarm in case another ship shows up while you're chatting with whoever's on the Falcon? Do you set an alarm so you might know if someone boards or wanders around your ship looking for you? Do you have any kind of precautions or security set up? Or can two bands of armed thugs both dock with your ship, waltz aboard and get the drop on you before you have any idea they are there at all? Hmm, and then when the GM lets you escape anyway, and you're in the Falcon, knowing it can be tracked like that and the new kids have a droid wanted by Kylo and the One Direction Empire wannabes, do you have anything to say about the plan of flying the Falcon to a friend's bar and then walking far away from it and hanging out talking to them without warning them until a Star Destroyer has time to land an invasion force there? Are your players ever that careless? How hard is it to think of a plot that would make more sense? When did Solo ever do anything that mindless and stupid in the OT?

Having watched JJ's Star Trek and Lost, I see that he just doesn't give a flying flip about anything making sense, especially details of how people actually manage to do anything smartly to get the better of situations. He just decides what will happen because he thinks it sounds cool, and is oblivious that some people notice that they're not shown doing anything that makes sense. It's just "well this can then happen so it does". It's totally missing the element of "well this kind of makes sense that if they do this in this way, it might tend to work because some vestige of logic exists", which I think was generally there in the OT (with a few exceptions such as replacing Wookies with Ewoks).

It painfully true that JJ doesn't give a shit about anything making sense (Trek/Lost/etc), and its bizarre to me, but the audience apparently LOVES that and throws piles of money at JJ's various efforts.

I don't get it. I really couldn't believe how painful JJ's Star Wars was. I was sitting there staring at a big budget ripoff of the original SW, a whack ass remake being sold as a sequel, and while there were entertaining bits, I felt completely bamboozled. At least the action was entertaining in a WTF video game way.

I actually have higher hopes for SW: Rogue One.

Quote from: Skarg;924906It just sounds to me like you didn't notice or think about it, but when you do it even makes no real sense to you - you're just willing to overlook it. But I was trying to point out that the stupid part of it isn't at all necessary. It's like all the other parts of the movie that I can't stand, in that whoever invented the story and signed off on it just seems to have a massive vacuum around logical stuff that stands out glaringly to me, because it would not be particularly hard to avoid or change most of it. For me though, it just makes me balk hard, in ways that the OT films really don't. Giving things a pass because it's a fun romp and not terribly serious is one thing, and works for me for the OT's slips, but the TFA holes seem far far more gaping, at least as far as my sensibilities go.

Han doesn't seem capable at all to me in TFA (ok he can fly the Falcon, do the nonsense unbelievable shield timing thing, and shoot people - what else does he do right?). He starts out getting himself nearly killed and then proceeds to set them all up to be killed again, all because the Falcon is tracked and even though he must have used that tracking himself to find it, he takes zero precautions and three groups of opponents show up and get the drop on him. What kind of an idiot was running his character?

Say I tell you you get to play Han Solo in a Star Wars campaign. You've lost the Falcon but know it has some beacon on it that somehow despite all established Star Wars precedent will let you hyperspace to it 15 minutes after it goes into space again (...). So you've bought a gigantic ship that can swallow the Falcon and carry deadly illegal space monsters but the ship is the ugliest block of shit ever to taint Star Wars and you've lost all your crew but Chewie. What do you do as far as ship security? When the Falcon alarm goes off and you hyperjump to it, do you possibly consider some of the groups who want you dead might also show up, given that the crew you pissed off know you were sulking around hoping that would happen? Do you lock the doors to your ship? Do you set any kind of alarm in case another ship shows up while you're chatting with whoever's on the Falcon? Do you set an alarm so you might know if someone boards or wanders around your ship looking for you? Do you have any kind of precautions or security set up? Or can two bands of armed thugs both dock with your ship, waltz aboard and get the drop on you before you have any idea they are there at all? Hmm, and then when the GM lets you escape anyway, and you're in the Falcon, knowing it can be tracked like that and the new kids have a droid wanted by Kylo and the One Direction Empire wannabes, do you have anything to say about the plan of flying the Falcon to a friend's bar and then walking far away from it and hanging out talking to them without warning them until a Star Destroyer has time to land an invasion force there? Are your players ever that careless? How hard is it to think of a plot that would make more sense? When did Solo ever do anything that mindless and stupid in the OT?

Having watched JJ's Star Trek and Lost, I see that he just doesn't give a flying flip about anything making sense, especially details of how people actually manage to do anything smartly to get the better of situations. He just decides what will happen because he thinks it sounds cool, and is oblivious that some people notice that they're not shown doing anything that makes sense. It's just "well this can then happen so it does". It's totally missing the element of "well this kind of makes sense that if they do this in this way, it might tend to work because some vestige of logic exists", which I think was generally there in the OT (with a few exceptions such as replacing Wookies with Ewoks).

Again, I really just didn't see it when I watched it and now that you are raising the point, it doesn't resonate with me. It isn't about overlooking it. It is that I just don't see the criticism you made about the death scene being that persuasive.

In terms of his characterization, Han Solo has already had a history of getting into trouble with groups he owes money to (and not being particularly good about avoiding). We are not talking about cautious and cagey player characters, we are talking about the guy who got himself frozen in carbonite, specifically told C-3PO never to tell him the odds (when the sensible thing probably would have been to make that calculation), etc. He has got to be one of the most reckless characters in the series. He is all about shooting form the hip.

Quote from: Skarg;924906Having watched JJ's Star Trek and Lost, I see that he just doesn't give a flying flip about anything making sense, especially details of how people actually manage to do anything smartly to get the better of situations. He just decides what will happen because he thinks it sounds cool, and is oblivious that some people notice that they're not shown doing anything that makes sense. It's just "well this can then happen so it does". It's totally missing the element of "well this kind of makes sense that if they do this in this way, it might tend to work because some vestige of logic exists", which I think was generally there in the OT (with a few exceptions such as replacing Wookies with Ewoks).

I don't know. There is a lot in the original trilogy that feels like they are making it up as they go because it is cool (the whole thing with Luke and Leia passionately kissing until we find out they are brother and sister stands out pretty high in my mind). There is plenty of great science fiction where logic and consistent characterization is paramount, but Star Wars has always been more about feeling and intuition than that stuff. I love the former but I can enjoy the latter and for me this is the level Star Wars has always operated on.

Quote from: Spinachcat;924907It painfully true that JJ doesn't give a shit about anything making sense (Trek/Lost/etc), and its bizarre to me, but the audience apparently LOVES that and throws piles of money at JJ's various efforts.

I don't get it. I really couldn't believe how painful JJ's Star Wars was. I was sitting there staring at a big budget ripoff of the original SW, a whack ass remake being sold as a sequel, and while there were entertaining bits, I felt completely bamboozled. At least the action was entertaining in a WTF video game way.

I actually have higher hopes for SW: Rogue One.

Yep yep yep.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;924923Again, I really just didn't see it when I watched it and now that you are raising the point, it doesn't resonate with me. It isn't about overlooking it. It is that I just don't see the criticism you made about the death scene being that persuasive.

In terms of his characterization, Han Solo has already had a history of getting into trouble with groups he owes money to (and not being particularly good about avoiding). We are not talking about cautious and cagey player characters, we are talking about the guy who got himself frozen in carbonite, specifically told C-3PO never to tell him the odds (when the sensible thing probably would have been to make that calculation), etc. He has got to be one of the most reckless characters in the series. He is all about shooting form the hip.

The death scene isn't the worst part for me, but it really doesn't make sense unless you're/he's in a spell or I suppose depressed. The real continuity/logic problems are the earlier ones (Starkiller base, seeing planets explode from the wrong star system, the appearance of two groups of goons on Han's own ship at the same time, flying to get ambushed again, and the choreography of most of the shoot outs and fighter battles being "pew pew heroes don't get shot", CGI X-wings can now spin and zap people like in Galaxian, and fight for half an hour while we have our dramatic ground confrontation, because we like having interleaved action even though there are only a handful of X-wings and when we show them they're getting blown up sometimes. Han's death scene I could almost pardon, but I was mainly trying to say that it's easy to think of ways to improve it or do something better for most of the film, from the point of view of someone who likes things to make sense and seem at least as plausible as the OT. Ya that's not a terribly high bar, but it seems like a much higher standard than they applied (if any standard was applied - it seems to have just been what seems cool to someone who never thinks about how things actually happen or why).

Han Solo having slipped back into his old ways and made lethal enemies is not a problem. And yes he's overconfident and gets into trouble but he's not incompetent, or he'd be dead already, in a logical universe. Han shooting Greedo first was consistent with that - when it came down to it, he anticipated, prepared under the table, and shot as soon as it was clear he needed to. He escaped capture and death before by managing to hide in secret compartments in the Falcon. C3PO's calculation, it seems to me, was just wrong, and he had the skill to make it into and out of the asteroid belt, and to hide in the blind spot on the back of a Star Destroyer and drift away with the garbage. Getting turned in by Lando and captured by Vader wasn't incompetent - he was just out-done by Vader and his Force powers and army. Even though he's overconfident and sometimes sloppy, he tends to at least try. Having two different groups simultaneously find you on your own large ship before you even know they're there? How does that even happen? Seems to me it happens because JJ thinks it's a funny joke (which it is, but it pays the price of undermining making any sense, and again it's lazy - it's not so hard to think of a way to make Han get cornered without just having his ship wide open and him not having thought about that at all and them just magically finding him at the same time... like, it could have just happened on the ground when they were hanging out talking to Maz BEFORE it was obvious he was being hunted via the Falcon - people could easily have recognized him and had time to move into a position to corner him. It's EASY to make even the same dull essential story make much more sense.) If Han was just airheaded and not doing anything to avoid getting killed by people who just waltz up, help themselves to his ship and get the drop on him all the time, he wouldn't have lived to be so old.

The way they set up the death scene, with Leia telling Han he had to try and bring their son back...when Han hugged her you saw the look on his face that he knew it wouldn't work.  As Solo said himself "He has too much Vader in him."  So right there, you have a setup that Han knows he probably going to die trying to reclaim his son.

Now fast forward to the bridge...the one thing I can't really forgive is Han Solo dying without saying anything.  So Ren says he wants to be free of this pain, kills Solo, and says "Thank You".  A simple "I'm sorry", "I love you", hell even touching his son's face, neck or shoulder and a nod would have made his death stronger showing that he tried to save his son, knowing he probably wasn't going to make it, but willing to make the sacrifice and atone.

The second unforgivable thing is that Chewie should have died there too, we should have seen what happens when a Wookie totally loses his shit, and the two new kids plant the bomb while Chewie goes down fighting Ren and 20 stormtroopers.  Granted a kids flick, so don't want to see Chewie dripping with blood, but can still show him leaping down, knocking guys 20 feet, etc...

The other stuff about the movie is just too numerous to list, but basically little things.  Assuming your shooting for the widest audience possible doesn't mean you can't come up with a better way to introduce the Millenium Falcon and Han Solo.  Does focused marketing show ridiculous coincidence improves audience turnout?  Nonsense.  This thing was going to bust a billion no matter what, they didn't have to make a different kind of movie, just make what they did, better.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;924924I don't know. There is a lot in the original trilogy that feels like they are making it up as they go because it is cool (the whole thing with Luke and Leia passionately kissing until we find out they are brother and sister stands out pretty high in my mind). There is plenty of great science fiction where logic and consistent characterization is paramount, but Star Wars has always been more about feeling and intuition than that stuff. I love the former but I can enjoy the latter and for me this is the level Star Wars has always operated on.

Luke & Leia kissing was cool? The only passionate kiss was fake passion to get Han jealous, and they didn't know they were siblings till later so it may cringe some people and yes Lucas just made it up for his own version of "oh let's reprise the family connection reveal that people liked in ESB", which is where I'd say the "because it's cool" comes in, but it's not actually a contradiction.

I know I'm more sensitive to certain types of logic than many viewers, but to me it's really clear that the OT had some logic & explanation that is not only lacking in TFA, but replaced by stuff that makes much less sense and also messes with the SW universe as a tolerable/interesting place. Especially how TFA supposedly takes place in several (5-6?) different parts of a galaxy, yet no one has any trouble finding anyone else in a matter of minutes, and of course the whole guided splitting bending lasers that strike all the way across the galaxy AND whose destruction can be seen large in the sky from an entirely different system thing, which breaks my scale of WTF and also makes the universe pretty ridiculous and unpleasant.

Quote from: Skarg;924949Luke & Leia kissing was cool? T.

No. It was a moment in the second film that becomes a big deal because of the 'cool' plot twist that she is his sister (which is pretty clear they made up later on).

Quote from: Skarg;924949I know I'm more sensitive to certain types of logic than many viewers, but to me it's really clear that the OT had some logic & explanation that is not only lacking in TFA, but replaced by stuff that makes much less sense and also messes with the SW universe as a tolerable/interesting place. Especially how TFA supposedly takes place in several (5-6?) different parts of a galaxy, yet no one has any trouble finding anyone else in a matter of minutes, and of course the whole guided splitting bending lasers that strike all the way across the galaxy AND whose destruction can be seen large in the sky from an entirely different system thing, which breaks my scale of WTF and also makes the universe pretty ridiculous and unpleasant.

All I am saying is Star Wars is a space romp and has never really held up to the scrutiny of that kind of logic. I don't fault you for finding flaws, I just think it is odd to hold a Star Wars movie to that kind of standard. The only real difference I think between the first trilogy and this one in that respect is a product of differences in pacing between then and now (and personally i vastly prefer 70s pacing to modern pacing). But most movies move at a certain pace now and things tend to get glossed over to have a more streamlined and final edit. If were another type of film, I'd agree with you on a lot of this. But for me this was as enjoyable as a New Hope.

Quote from: Skarg;924949The only passionate kiss was fake passion to get Han jealous, and they didn't know they were siblings till later so it may cringe some people and yes Lucas just made it up for his own version of "oh let's reprise the family connection reveal that people liked in ESB", which is where I'd say the "because it's cool" comes in, but it's not actually a contradiction.

I get all those arguments, but it still sticks out and it makes it pretty obvious they were never intended to be brother and sister from the beginning. Lucas came up with a plot twist to add to the third film and he went with it because this is based on serials like Flash Gordon, where coolness is more important than continuity. It is pulp in space with a bit of mythic resonance.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;924952

QuoteI know I'm more sensitive to certain types of logic than many viewers, but to me it's really clear that the OT had some logic & explanation that is not only lacking in TFA, but replaced by stuff that makes much less sense and also messes with the SW universe as a tolerable/interesting place. Especially how TFA supposedly takes place in several (5-6?) different parts of a galaxy, yet no one has any trouble finding anyone else in a matter of minutes, and of course the whole guided splitting bending lasers that strike all the way across the galaxy AND whose destruction can be seen large in the sky from an entirely different system thing, which breaks my scale of WTF and also makes the universe pretty ridiculous and unpleasant.

All I am saying is Star Wars is a space romp and has never really held up to the scrutiny of that kind of logic. I don't fault you for finding flaws, I just think it is odd to hold a Star Wars movie to that kind of standard. The only real difference I think between the first trilogy and this one in that respect is a product of differences in pacing between then and now (and personally i vastly prefer 70s pacing to modern pacing). But most movies move at a certain pace now and things tend to get glossed over to have a more streamlined and final edit. If were another type of film, I'd agree with you on a lot of this. But for me this was as enjoyable as a New Hope.

I think it depends on what your logic scrutiny chart looks like. The reason I keep ranting about TFA is because I see what to me are massive differences in logic between the OT and TFA. I do agree that the cause may largely be about pacing, but I think the drive for that pacing causes stuff to have no explanation I can think of and accept... though as I've said, I don't think that's necessary, it just happened because they wanted the pacing and weren't sensitive to the things that to me seem like minimal requirements to make sense. To me, the degree to which things are plausible and make sense has a whole lot to do with whether I can hold any interest in it. Particularly, to bring this back to site relevance, for whether I'd ever consider gaming it. I can see gaming most of the OT and finding it fun and interesting. Things might play out differently, but I wouldn't feel a need to change most of the way things work. In TFA, I can't get anywhere without balking. If they slowed the pacing down and paid attention, it wouldn't make sense. If I let my players make choices, they'd never do the things done in the film the way they do them. And ya, I balk at many parts of most modern action films too.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;924954I get all those arguments, but it still sticks out and it makes it pretty obvious they were never intended to be brother and sister from the beginning. Lucas came up with a plot twist to add to the third film and he went with it because this is based on serials like Flash Gordon, where coolness is more important than continuity. It is pulp in space with a bit of mythic resonance.

Well I do agree that it's a bit silly and was made up later, but the kiss isn't a contradiction. It's a bit contrived but it's not breaking logic. The places where the OT actually breaks continuity for me stand out in a few annoying places, but they are a contrast to the many things that make some sort of sense and engage me because they set up a situation and then show action that is about that situation in a way that is interestingly self-consistent to some degree. The battles in the OT tend to involve various explained elements that make sense and take some time - in TFA Han makes fun of even having a plan - the plan is "these things always have a way to blow them up" yuk yuk. They're not even trying - they're making fun of the part that made the OT interesting. In the OT even the un-named people in the action seem like relate-able people with their own perspectives and limits and reaction times, and the action also doesn't break basic things like the galaxy being huge so you can't pew pew and see explosions from other systems, or find spaceships in 10 minutes in random places in deep space, or shoot down tie fighters on completely different courses that you could never have seen while doing a super-tight turn, etc.

Quote from: Skarg;924964Well I do agree that it's a bit silly and was made up later, but the kiss isn't a contradiction. It's a bit contrived but it's not breaking logic.  

Well, if it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother you, but I personally find it to be one of the biggest inconsistencies in film making I can think of. It is so glaring if you watch the first two films with knowledge of the revelation in this third. It is just obvious that in this moment they are not brother and sister, were never meant to be brother and sister, and are enjoying a kiss. Then suddenly in the third movie they are brother and sister. That is an inconsistency. That is a huge, gaping, inconsistency. Every time I come upon that scene it emphasizes that inconsistency to me, and it is always a little jarring because it is so painfully obvious. You can charitably explain it away but it is still a clear inconsistency of characterization to me. And any explanation you come up with is after the fact reasoning that the film makers clearly never intended. It is pretty obvious if George Lucas thought of the sibling relationship before that scene was filmed, they never would have kissed in the first place. And after he just figured there was enough room for doubt for him to add in the new detail (or he just plum forgot that they kissed).

Quote from: Skarg;924963I think it depends on what your logic scrutiny chart looks like. The reason I keep ranting about TFA is because I see what to me are massive differences in logic between the OT and TFA. I do agree that the cause may largely be about pacing, but I think the drive for that pacing causes stuff to have no explanation I can think of and accept... though as I've said, I don't think that's necessary, it just happened because they wanted the pacing and weren't sensitive to the things that to me seem like minimal requirements to make sense. To me, the degree to which things are plausible and make sense has a whole lot to do with whether I can hold any interest in it. Particularly, to bring this back to site relevance, for whether I'd ever consider gaming it. I can see gaming most of the OT and finding it fun and interesting. Things might play out differently, but I wouldn't feel a need to change most of the way things work. In TFA, I can't get anywhere without balking. If they slowed the pacing down and paid attention, it wouldn't make sense. If I let my players make choices, they'd never do the things done in the film the way they do them. And ya, I balk at many parts of most modern action films too.

I tend to watch more movies from the late 60s and the 70s than modern, so I feel you on the pacing. But I think if you pay close attention you'll find there have been improvements in some areas, while problems have been introduced elsewhere. If you watch action-adventure movies from the 70s, 80s or even the 90s, they often let the heroes get away with really stupid plans of escape in terms of the action choreography itself (the classic, 'hey look while I slap the gun out of your hand'). But I think the faster pacing and more streamlined editing (plus the fact that audiences are global now and what tends to matter is the visuals) has moved films away from being able to linger more on internal logic.

But I look at it as different genres and style of film have different bars for that kind of thing. I expect a lot of characterization consistency in say a Tarantino film, but I don't expect the physics consistency like I might from 2001. If Abrahms made a sequel 2001 and 2010 or something, then I'd probably be like 'WTF!' if it had the logic of a flash Gordon Serial. To me this just continues the same level of Flash Gordon serial logic that existed in the first films (with some added problems because of modern pacing issues). They still occasionally make movies without the action pacing. The pacing on the martial for example felt a bit more old school.

People will disagree of course. But the original trilogy to me always felt like it was largely built on a series of convenient coincidences and that what was driving it was getting the characters from point A to point B to point C. And one of its chief problems is many of its later revelations force you to question some things that happen earlier in the film (both with Vader and with Luke and Leia). I see star wars as a film fueled more by the demands of adventure, action and drama. So I am just not as worried about consistency unless it punches me in the nose the moment I am watching (and I mean consistency with things like "this guy was over here, but because of a crappy edit he is suddenly two miles away even though time hasn't elapsed).

The biggest problem I have with the new trilogy now that I've watched the first movie a few times (and I think this comes from some of the consistency issues  and from pacing) is space feels a little smaller in this one than in the first ones. But I think that is because there was more time with talking while in space on ships in the first trilogy than because it was hugely consistent about space travel. There were road trip moments which help make space feel larger to me.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;924969Well, if it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother you, but I personally find it to be one of the biggest inconsistencies in film making I can think of. It is so glaring if you watch the first two films with knowledge of the revelation in this third. It is just obvious that in this moment they are not brother and sister, were never meant to be brother and sister, and are enjoying a kiss. Then suddenly in the third movie they are brother and sister. That is an inconsistency. That is a huge, gaping, inconsistency. Every time I come upon that scene it emphasizes that inconsistency to me, and it is always a little jarring because it is so painfully obvious. You can charitably explain it away but it is still a clear inconsistency of characterization to me. And any explanation you come up with is after the fact reasoning that the film makers clearly never intended. It is pretty obvious if George Lucas thought of the sibling relationship before that scene was filmed, they never would have kissed in the first place. And after he just figured there was enough room for doubt for him to add in the new detail (or he just plum forgot that they kissed).

Hmm. Well the bro-sis "reveal" was annoying to me the first and second time I saw it. If I recall correctly, I think the first time I was thinking, "Huh what? Oh no not again - what bullshit did someone invent to fuck with us to give us something different to think about and surprise us? Am I willing to even think about this and care? Errgh this is going to take some adjustment. It hurts my brain. No, that's not true. That's impossibru... uhhhgh. Yeah Luke is right! Having Vader be Luke's father makes Obi Wan a withholding dick! Yoda too! How annoying. Luke would be totally justified to be very un-Light-Side towards them! Well Yoda's still talking... I'm glad at least he's dying so we're probably not going to have to watch Luke do lots more pushups in the jungle. Um, ok, I think I can handle it. I hope it doesn't get worse." So, yeah, but after seeing the rest of the film, and re-watching it, I cooled down about it to just think more like I do now, which is something like, "well that was obviously a plot twist Lucas chose to try to give us another family weirdness moment, and it seems annoying and needless and unlikely and silly... but oh well, at least it means we can not be tortured by love triangle moments, nor feel sorry for Luke not getting the girl. Kind of ridiculous. Whatever. Fortunately, it doesn't really affect the part I enjoy, which is mainly the battles. Bring the battles... Oh what teddy bears? oh crap... show me some Star Destroyers."

So ya, we're not that far off there, but we do react differently.

I think in the first film, Luke starts clearly interested in Leia, and there is one kiss during the escape and maybe a congrats kiss at the end, though by that time they seem more like comrades than Luke on the prowl.

I think in the second film, Luke Han and Leia have been doing Rebel shit for who knows how long (months? years?), no one is with Leia, and Han seems more interested in Leia that way than Luke is. There's still a triangle/competition, but Leia kisses Luke because she's trying to show Han she's not under his thumb, because she's interested in Han, not because she actually is into Luke.

I remember reacting with "what? no..." to the "I am your father" reveal in Empire, too. It seemed like (and was) an idea added in a later film, to try to be more dramatically cool and surprising.

But what if Lucas had known from the beginning that Luke & Leia were Vader's twin kids? If they were raised separately and had no way of knowing, why wouldn't they act as they did? Wouldn't it only be because the author knew they were siblings, and so was using his author powers and knowledge that should have no realistic effect, to have effects? Or do you believe that even such kids would have an instinctive non-attraction? (Leia does say she always had some sense of it, yes overstated as "I always knew", which if she consciously did would be more weird.) Of course, they also really didn't do much of anything.

Sure the siblingness was invented later, but it's not an impossible invention. Seems to me the objection is more that the forced plot would've been different due to out-of-character reasons (since they didn't know), which would actually be a less realistic influence than writing the earlier stories without that knowledge, since no one had that knowledge. . .
 ... um...
Ok... wait... sorry... actually though, what about Obi-Wan and Yoda? Oh right, they knew all along (at least according to Episode III), and supposedly they need to keep them from knowing to protect, say, Luke from betraying Leia's Force status to Vader when Luke faces Vader... errrgh. That to me is more annoying to me than the kissing part, except maybe that Obi-Wan didn't keep Luke from getting interested in Leia ... or maybe he used Force Disinterest? Uhgh. I'm not a big fan of the whole Force chosen one destiny ooh we need someone with Force powers or we're all doomed, thing, so if there is a part that makes me groan about the OT, it's that whole business. I'd groan almost as much even if Lucas had planned it and had it make more sense. The big continuity issues for me are things like the Ewoks wiping out stormtroopers and the timing and space/distance issues with the Executor suddenly hitting the Death Star II, and how the Falcon flies through the whole Death Star and blows it up but flies out of it in time to escape, and stuff like that...

... which is why seeing planets explode in the sky of a planet in the wrong part of the galaxy bugs me. As do hyperactive dogfights. As does two different groups of enemies showing up at the same time on Han's ship. And other tactical and timing details. I'm largely in it for the action, and the situations and choices leading to the action, and when the action makes no sense, and the thinking about what to do seems wrong or mindless, etc, that's what gets me, and what seems rather deficient in TFA versus the OT.

Quote from: Skarg;925169But what if Lucas had known from the beginning that Luke & Leia were Vader's twin kids? If they were raised separately and had no way of knowing, why wouldn't they act as they did? Wouldn't it only be because the author knew they were siblings, and so was using his author powers and knowledge that should have no realistic effect, to have effects? Or do you believe that even such kids would have an instinctive non-attraction? (Leia does say she always had some sense of it, yes overstated as "I always knew", which if she consciously did would be more weird.) Of course, they also really didn't do much of anything.

Sure the siblingness was invented later, but it's not an impossible invention. Seems to me the objection is more that the forced plot would've been different due to out-of-character reasons (since they didn't know), which would actually be a less realistic influence than writing the earlier stories without that knowledge, since no one had that knowledge. . .
 .

I think most audiences (particularly at the time) would have expected instinctual lack of attraction. I think we could debate the reality of that endlessly, but that is what people expect, and incest is only of the biggest taboos out there. So it just stands out (even if it is for out of character reasons, it draws attention to Lucas not being concrete or consistent in characterization). The out of character stuff matters (though I think this still has obvious in character problems). But just from a quality issue, a twist like this, if its planned, ought to be foreshadowed. I defniitely wouldn't have expected the writer to have them kiss to trick the audience. It is the kind of thing I'd like to see hints of, hints that might seem meaningless at the time, but add up at the time of the revelation. I'm a big Doctor Who fan and one of my pet peeves with that series, especially lately is when they don't even bother to plan out the twists in advance properly (by laying the groundwork early on to give them a better sense of reality and consistency). I get the same feeling with the original trilogy. I get why he did it. I think he was right to make that call in the end, because the trade off was worth it. But I do think it would have been better if this had occurred to him at the start of filming rather than midway through. Still, like I said though, this is flash gordon serial stuff....I can easily overlook it. I just don't see a huge difference between this and a lot of the problems in 7.

I follow you, and mostly agree. It was weird and fairly obvious it was a new idea. Though I think I have less sympathy and interest on the part about the audience expectations  that a movie wouldn't have attraction or any kissing between oblivious siblings - that mostly just makes it more comical to me, but doesn't seem like necessarily a continuity issue, since I think some siblings might not really get it or not go there (e.g. contrast Game of Thrones, yes times have changed, but SW is a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... so misalignment with 20th Century US conventional moral film expectations in all things is not a continuity issue to me).

And again, it's in a field I don't care about so much for continuity, compared to whether the conflict events make sense and are shown in a way that's interesting and consistent and that I can suspend enough disbelief for. Again my gripes with Ep. VI are more about combat results and timing (Executor destruction scene, Ewok combat effectiveness, and Falcon flying into and out of the Death Star are the main ones that come to mind - I don't care that much about Leia and Luke being siblings and even though it's an obvious silly afterthought, I'm ultimately relieved not to have to bother with a love triangle in Star Wars.

As for pacing and different types of qualities of older movies, I mostly agree. I mostly prefer the older styles, even when they're lazy or low-budget or sloppy in the stunt choreography or effects. I'd rather use my imagination cheritably with Roger Moore beating up a younger fitter thug with sloppy biff'em moves, than have to try to believe that Daniel Craig (in contrast to some grittier scenes) can be sure which helicopter to shoot at over London with his pistol from a moving boat at night and bring it down, also in such a way that it kills everyone aboard except the main villain. I re-watched The Spy Who Loved Me after Spectre expecting wild fakeness and was fairly shocked at how I didn't think it was actually bothering me with unrealistic stuff (being generous about the physical aspects), except for the few absolutely nonsense aspects of it.

Quote from: Skarg;925207As for pacing and different types of qualities of older movies, I mostly agree. I mostly prefer the older styles, even when they're lazy or low-budget or sloppy in the stunt choreography or effects. I'd rather use my imagination cheritably with Roger Moore beating up a younger fitter thug with sloppy biff'em moves, than have to try to believe that Daniel Craig (in contrast to some grittier scenes) can be sure which helicopter to shoot at over London with his pistol from a moving boat at night and bring it down, also in such a way that it kills everyone aboard except the main villain. I re-watched The Spy Who Loved Me after Spectre expecting wild fakeness and was fairly shocked at how I didn't think it was actually bothering me with unrealistic stuff (being generous about the physical aspects), except for the few absolutely nonsense aspects of it.

Action scenes are really important to me (but then I like Kung Fu movies and grew up watching films like Commando and bloodsport). It isn't that I dislike older action scenes. Ben Hur had some great moments for example. I just feel it is an area where filming has generally improved (though I also think we've declined on that front in more recent years as CGI has demanded less physical performances). But pacing and storytelling...I like the older stuff better. And if you are talking asian cinema, I love the old Kung Fu and wuxia movies but the late 80s-90s is probably my favorite.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;924969Well, if it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother you, but I personally find it to be one of the biggest inconsistencies in film making I can think of. It is so glaring if you watch the first two films with knowledge of the revelation in this third. It is just obvious that in this moment they are not brother and sister, were never meant to be brother and sister, and are enjoying a kiss. Then suddenly in the third movie they are brother and sister. That is an inconsistency. That is a huge, gaping, inconsistency. Every time I come upon that scene it emphasizes that inconsistency to me, and it is always a little jarring because it is so painfully obvious. You can charitably explain it away but it is still a clear inconsistency of characterization to me. And any explanation you come up with is after the fact reasoning that the film makers clearly never intended. It is pretty obvious if George Lucas thought of the sibling relationship before that scene was filmed, they never would have kissed in the first place. And after he just figured there was enough room for doubt for him to add in the new detail (or he just plum forgot that they kissed).

Odd that Lucas the revisionsit, hadn't taken out the kiss scene and replaced it with an awkward CGI scene of some sort before he scuttled off.

Quote from: Skarg;924946THan shooting Greedo first was consistent with that - when it came down to it, he anticipated, prepared under the table, and shot as soon as it was clear he needed to.

No the point was Han (who doesn't like sneaking around) didn't anticipate that hanging out in one of the usual hangouts for shady smugglers might get him recognized. His raise his hand up to draw Greedo's eye as a set up for shooting the Rodian with the gun he'd drawn under the table was masterful improvisation to get out of a situation he should have anticipated he'd get into and tried to avoid. If Greedo hadn't been greedy enough to go after Han solo and had instead brought along a few partners, the seat of the pants, shoot him under the table, thing might not have worked out so well.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;924969Well, if it doesn't bother you, it doesn't bother you, but I personally find it to be one of the biggest inconsistencies in film making I can think of. It is so glaring if you watch the first two films with knowledge of the revelation in this third. It is just obvious that in this moment they are not brother and sister, were never meant to be brother and sister, and are enjoying a kiss. Then suddenly in the third movie they are brother and sister. That is an inconsistency.

Or a rather unsettling view of appropriate sibling relations. :eek:

Quote from: Bren;925311No the point was Han (who doesn't like sneaking around) didn't anticipate that hanging out in one of the usual hangouts for shady smugglers might get him recognized. His raise his hand up to draw Greedo's eye as a set up for shooting the Rodian with the gun he'd drawn under the table was masterful improvisation to get out of a situation he should have anticipated he'd get into and tried to avoid. If Greedo hadn't been greedy enough to go after Han solo and had instead brought along a few partners, the seat of the pants, shoot him under the table, thing might not have worked out so well....

Yes the might not have, but we don't know. Han is overconfident but he also manages risk. Isn't there a scene where a squad of stormtroopers seems to be about to catch Han & Chewie in the cantina booth with Luke & Obi-wan, but when they make it to his booth, Luke & Obi-wan aren't there? Of course, that could have been Obi-wan's work.

QuoteOr a rather unsettling view of appropriate sibling relations. :eek:

I still don't get why people who have no idea they are siblings should be expected to act like siblings...

Quote from: Skarg;925330I still don't get why people who have no idea they are siblings should be expected to act like siblings...

• Because the incest taboo is culturally pretty strong so if you don't want it to be incest squicky the two siblings should have a different sort of feeling in the force than "the lovers." On some level they should intuitively know that they aren't attracted in that way.

• Or maybe not, if the author wants to go there for some weird reason. And that is supposing it's not a continuity error based on Lucas changing stuff (who shot first?) after the fact and just making shit up as he goes along without a very strong a tie to continuity. Like he does with a lot of other shit.

• And because it's fiction - lighthearted space opera in fact - not reality or anything that is supposed to closely resemble reality. And the author knows...or maybe he doesn't...when he scripts the kiss "for luck" in film 1 and the romantic rivalry between Luke and Han for Leia that the two are actually brother and sister.

I think you are way overthinking The Force Awakens. Are parts dumb? Sure they are. There's dumb stuff in all the films which just seems dumber the more films that are made and the more times we see really similar dumb stuff. I try not to focus too much attention on continuity and reasonable behavior in my space opera. I find it's much more enjoyable if I look at the big picture, the special effects, and the emotional thrill ride. Which is why prequels 2 and 3 (with the wooden romantic acting of the "stars") are so much less fun than the romantic scenes in the original films ("I love you." "I know.").

Quote from: Bren;925333

• Because the incest taboo is culturally pretty strong so if you don't want it to be incest squicky the two siblings should have a different sort of feeling in the force than "the lovers." On some level they should intuitively know that they aren't attracted in that way.

So the reaction is about the taboo not about it not making sense. The level of mistake is at the level of out-of-universe reasons, not not making sense in-universe. Oops accidentally scratched the ignorance - that part doesn't even seem negative to me. Like if someone accidentally made a plot change that meant some character was intrinsically gay, instead of by choice, and Michelle Bachman got offended. I get that this level does bother other people.

Quote

• Or maybe not, if the author wants to go there for some weird reason. And that is supposing it's not a continuity error based on Lucas changing stuff (who shot first?) after the fact and just making shit up as he goes along without a very strong a tie to continuity. Like he does with a lot of other shit.

Well ya I don't disagree. As I wrote, it was pretty obvious at that point, and made it double-obvious that Vader being Luke's father was an afterthought too. But the kiss didn't break in-universe logic unless you believe that everyone would always never kiss your brother even if you didn't know it was your brother (which I don't). What was the most annoying part of them suddenly being siblings, to me, was the obviousness of it being a new idea trying to be a cool one, and that it felt like it made Obi-Wan and Yoda out to be withholding shits and silly people or at least that the whole "oh the universe is doomed unless we have particular people level up their Force powers" which is annoying to me because again, I care about the action aspects and don't like they're importance undermined, in this case by asserting that what really matters is some stupid and changing situation about single saviors and their level of unrelatable inherited Force-specialness, which tends to make me not care and hate the universe/situation.

Lucas' change to Greedo shooting first is crazy bullshit to me. To me, the version of Han that let Greedo shoot first and somehow didn't die WOULD have gotten simultaneously surprised by two groups of scum on his own ship, except if I were GM'ing, he would probably have been killed by Greedo or shortly thereafter doing to too often doing things in ways that get people killed. And yes, I think Lucas' continuity in Ep 1-3 and some of the changes he made in the specialized versions of 4-6 were ridiculous BS.

And yet, I don't think Lucas' latter day BS is anywhere near on the level of Abrams' level/episode 7 BS, where everyone in the universe would have had a front row seat to Alderaan exploding, and the Death Star would not have needed to move to the Yavin system to attack it, nor would the rebels have had to have a plan or need to find the Death Star, nor would Vader have to let the Falcon escape the Death Star, nor would anything have to have any reason to happen, or anyone have any real reason to have any sensible reason or requirement to do anything, because it's all just "now this happens, because we're copying a format from another movie, and/or JJ thinks it's fun or cool and doesn't see any reason to even pretend to have a reason why or how it makes any real sense, or if he does mention a reason, there is no bar to how much it makes any sense".

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• And because it's fiction - lighthearted space opera in fact - not reality or anything that is supposed to closely resemble reality. And the author knows...or maybe he doesn't...when he scripts the kiss "for luck" in film 1 and the romantic rivalry between Luke and Han for Leia that the two are actually brother and sister.

No, being fiction, and even being lighthearted space opera, is not a carte blanche license to flaunt reality in all ways. In fact, I would say that fiction remains compelling and interesting involves the degree to which it is still relevant to the actual human experience, including have things other than the fantastic elements make some level of sense. However, what things people notice and are bothered by apparently varies quite a bit. Not that I care in a way that would have me actively want to have siblings doing that - I just don't think the continuity objection to it is the same sort of thing as the violations of physical time/space/logic in Ep 7 - rather these sister-kiss issues are matters of 20th Century USA Earthling taboo/audience-expectation, which is literally astronomically different.

QuoteI think you are way overthinking The Force Awakens. Are parts dumb? Sure they are. There's dumb stuff in all the films which just seems dumber the more films that are made and the more times we see really similar dumb stuff. I try not to focus too much attention on continuity and reasonable behavior in my space opera. I find it's much more enjoyable if I look at the big picture, the special effects, and the emotional thrill ride. Which is why prequels 2 and 3 (with the wooden romantic acting of the "stars") are so much less fun than the romantic scenes in the original films ("I love you." "I know.").

If I'm overthinking, I'm overthinking in my efforts to understand and express what were visceral reactions to stuff not making any sense to me the instant I saw them.

I was trying not to focus too, but that effort was blown away again and again, as was my ability to be emotionally involved except in disappointment and annoyance.

The prequels... well they have two or three levels of suck, for me. My usual action nonesense issues, and various disappointments in the script/direction/acting. I tried really hard to re-watch them before Ep 7, going so far as to watch the heroic re-script/editing of them into Japanese with new-script subtitiles, but I couldn't survive it.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;925250Odd that Lucas the revisionsit, hadn't taken out the kiss scene and replaced it with an awkward CGI scene of some sort before he scuttled off.

Indeed. Then we could have had LEIA KISSED FIRST! (twice) T-shirts.

Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?".  Empire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.  Therefore, not a complete RotJ invention, therefore, if you think so, you're provably full of shit.  :D

Carry on.

Quote from: CRKrueger;925936Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?".  Empire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.  Therefore, not a complete RotJ invention, therefore, if you think so, you're provably full of shit.  :D

Carry on.

They originally were going to have a whole other character be his twin sister, not Leia.

Gary Kurtz on the original plan: http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/gary_kurtz_reveals_original_plans_for_episodes_19_80270.asp

Brackett's original screenplay: http://julianperezconquerstheuniverse.blogspot.com/2011/05/leigh-bracketts-original-1978-empire.html

I think it is painfully obvious that she was not intended to be his sister in that film. Equally obvious Vader was not originally intended to be the father. I think the twists add more than they take away from the film. I just don't think the trilogy was terribly consistent (not that consistency is all that important in a flash-gordenesque adventure film).

Quote from: CRKrueger;925936Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?"

Luke's sister. Leia.  

QuoteEmpire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.

The love triangle isn't foreshadowed in ESB, it first occurs in A New Hope. Notice the scene with Han and Luke in the Falcon's cockpit where Han says something like, "Do you think a girl like her and a guy like me..." And Luke quickly jumps in with "No."

The romantic triangle is sort of continued in ESB, though tonally it's pretty clear that Leia is more interested in Han and her kissing Luke is a ploy to make Han jealous. All that behavior is straight out of pulp serials and 1930s-40s films.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;925940They originally were going to have a whole other character be his twin sister, not Leia.

Gary Kurtz on the original plan: http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/gary_kurtz_reveals_original_plans_for_episodes_19_80270.asp

Brackett's original screenplay: http://julianperezconquerstheuniverse.blogspot.com/2011/05/leigh-bracketts-original-1978-empire.html

I think it is painfully obvious that she was not intended to be his sister in that film. Equally obvious Vader was not originally intended to be the father. I think the twists add more than they take away from the film. I just don't think the trilogy was terribly consistent (not that consistency is all that important in a flash-gordenesque adventure film).

Yes and I would like to point out for the sake of reference that Lucas was the one who wrote in the changes if I remember right.(just so all the facts are in play unless I'm wrong and miss-remembering something.)

Quote from: Skarg;923069The Plunkitt review of Ep VII is on YouTube. I think it may be longer than the film itself.

The first HOUR is actually not about Ep VII, but is about Internet commenters, the annoying Circle Theory posted by some fan, and about Lucas selling to Disney and about the wave of pro-Prequel puff on the Internet that mysteriously and stupidly appeared after the sale to Disney. Though mostly irrelevant to Ep VII, I agreed with most of it and there were some sound bite conclusions that perfectly matched my attitude to the prequels, the stupid fan theories of Lucas grand plan genius, and the beneath-contempt "the prequels are as good as the OT" idiocy. There's one sound bite that also applies to my feelings about most crappy sci fi films and some games and books, which I'll have to go back and find so I can quote and link to it instead of descending into explaining to people why I'm annoyed by stupid lazy forced formulaic storytelling in films and games.

When he actually gets to the Ep VII review, he repeats the obligatory observation that it's an ANH clone, thankfully pretty quickly, and then makes various points, some of which match my own (The "Resistance"???, the WTF seeing Starkiller Base blow up planets from other star systems), though he doesn't match my particular outrages exactly, but close enough. There's a bit ranting about the "diversity" casting, and a couple bits I don't really agree with (e.g. he says he wanted some romance... wat?). I like that he called out the baton vs saber fight as annoying/silly.

And of course there was a disturbing amount of random misogyny and "I'm a serial killer" jokes and it concludes with an attempt to completely gross out everyone with literal projectile diarrhea combat followed by an offer of food. . . . at least that "achieves" a level of disrespect for crappy film-making that resembles my level of disappointment. ;-)

I can't make up my mind about who is more pathetic: The Red Letter Moron (a grown man who can't follow the plot of movies aimed at 8 to 12-year-old boys and makes hour-long videos about this, plus rambling on about humping cats and mutilating women in his basement) or his equally dimwitted admirers. After reading Red Letter Media's Episode I Review A Study in Fanboy Stupidity (https://writerdisease.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/red-letter-media-episode-i-review-a-study-in-fanboy-stupidity.pdf), I think it's a tie.

Quote from: Elfdart;926016I can't make up my mind about who is more pathetic: The Red Letter Moron (a grown man who can't follow the plot of movies aimed at 8 to 12-year-old boys and makes hour-long videos about this, plus rambling on about humping cats and mutilating women in his basement) or his equally dimwitted admirers. After reading Red Letter Media's Episode I Review A Study in Fanboy Stupidity (https://writerdisease.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/red-letter-media-episode-i-review-a-study-in-fanboy-stupidity.pdf), I think it's a tie.

Is that a 100 page response to an online movie review?

Quote from: Elfdart;926016I can't make up my mind about who is more pathetic: The Red Letter Moron (a grown man who can't follow the plot of movies aimed at 8 to 12-year-old boys and makes hour-long videos about this, plus rambling on about humping cats and mutilating women in his basement) or his equally dimwitted admirers. After reading Red Letter Media's Episode I Review A Study in Fanboy Stupidity (https://writerdisease.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/red-letter-media-episode-i-review-a-study-in-fanboy-stupidity.pdf), I think it's a tie.

I think you are the most pathetic for reading that 109 page crapfest in its entirety. Goddamn man, if you want to abuse yourself just go get drunk - you will lose less sanity.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;926124Is that a 100 page response to an online movie review?

That's the one.

Quote from: jeff37923;926138I think you are the most pathetic for reading that 109 page crapfest in its entirety. Goddamn man, if you want to abuse yourself just go get drunk - you will lose less sanity.

Reading is seldom a chore, let alone an ordeal. But listening to the Red Letter Moron drone on for an hour or more about his failure to grasp a Saturday matinee movie and fucking his pets should be listed as a war crime under the Geneva Conventions. Anyway, the article was the best point-by-point expose of a bullshitter since John Scalzi got his nose rubbed in it.

So people have an issue with Han Solo's death and general characterization in general?

Did you not watch the first third of the goddamn movie that opens with a Star Destroyer fast dropping a platoon of assholes onto not-Tatooine to whack some dirt farmers then suddenly forget to actually matter when the Falcon, sans working hyperdrive mind you, leaves Jakku after dealing with....what...three TIEs? That are reported to have missiles?

Sure you can argue that the SD was damaged by the escape of Poe and Finn, but the damn thing isn't even shown in orbit. Until after Solo gets his ship back. When it's suddenly back orbiting planet plot twiddling it's damn thumbs.

That's the kind of lazy writing Abram goes for. Ignore plot holes because hey the audience is to stupid to nitice, right?

Quote from: CRKrueger;925936Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?".  Empire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.  Therefore, not a complete RotJ invention, therefore, if you think so, you're provably full of shit.  :D

Carry on.

Han of all people was one guess fans had back then. Reason? He used Lukes lightsaber. Theres also his piloting skills for example.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;926240So people have an issue with Han Solo's death and general characterization in general?

Did you not watch the first third of the goddamn movie that opens with a Star Destroyer fast dropping a platoon of assholes onto not-Tatooine to whack some dirt farmers then suddenly forget to actually matter when the Falcon, sans working hyperdrive mind you, leaves Jakku after dealing with....what...three TIEs? That are reported to have missiles?

Sure you can argue that the SD was damaged by the escape of Poe and Finn, but the damn thing isn't even shown in orbit. Until after Solo gets his ship back. When it's suddenly back orbiting planet plot twiddling it's damn thumbs.

That's the kind of lazy writing Abram goes for. Ignore plot holes because hey the audience is to stupid to nitice, right?

Yes. I find most of TFA to be annoying illogical (far more than the OT, and even more than the prequels) - I just didn't rant about all of the silliness.

So yeah, the initial scenario is also silly and illogical in the ways you mention, and in others. Looking to CAPTURE a droid and get data off it? Ok, calling in an airstrike on a desert village at the same time you send in your own soldiers to shoot everything at random sounds really effective at accomplishing that, right?

And speaking of the Star Destroyer, why at the other planet does it retreat when Leia shows up in a super-ugly small flying mobile home with a few X-Wings? Again, after not finding the droid? Is it really explainable by their leader being a manboy not wanting to talk to his mom and having found a rare cool human female to abduct?

Even if you buy that, there is also the question of why teenagers (or young adults with the emotional maturity and behavior of teenagers) seem to be the highest officers in the One Direction or whatever the new bad guy army is called... oh gawd...

Quote from: CRKrueger;925936Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?".  Empire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.  Therefore, not a complete RotJ invention, therefore, if you think so, you're provably full of shit.  :D

Carry on.

We had a running joke in school that the other Jedi was R2-D2 because in Star Wars: A New Hope when Luke was going to buy that other droid instead of it, R2-D2 used The Force to cause its motivator to explode. Force using droid.

Quote from: jeff37923;926490We had a running joke in school that the other Jedi was R2-D2 because in Star Wars: A New Hope when Luke was going to buy that other droid instead of it, R2-D2 used The Force to cause its motivator to explode. Force using droid.

I hear so many ideas in random Internet threads that seem more interesting/fun/rational than much of what they actually put in the films... I like this one. :-)

Quote from: Skarg;926636I hear so many ideas in random Internet threads that seem more interesting/fun/rational than much of what they actually put in the films... I like this one. :-)

There was alot of those. One early one in a magazine I still have was speculation that Darth Vader was from Tatooine and possibly related to the Sand People.

Quote from: Omega;928323There was alot of those. One early one in a magazine I still have was speculation that Darth Vader was from Tatooine and possibly related to the Sand People.

That's funny. Maybe George Lucas read it and used/adapted it. It seems to me that is one of the ideas in the prequels that isn't pointlessly unbelievably improbable, logic-ignoring or annoying.

Quote from: CRKrueger;925936Who exactly did people think Yoda meant in Empire when he said "There is another?".  Empire Strikes Back foreshadows Leia being a Skywalker in the same movie as the Love Triangle scenes.  Therefore, not a complete RotJ invention, therefore, if you think so, you're provably full of shit.  :D

Carry on.

My mom called it long ago due to Luke being able to reach out to Leia with the Force at Cloud City.

---

And I disagree about people saying Vader being Luke's father was a revision. I think it was set up that something wasn't quite right in Obi Wan's explanation to Luke. (Sir Alec Guiness does a lot of that acting stuff that isn't just rattling off lines)
I don't think Lucas had it all planned out like he claims he does, but I do think he was keeping some story options open as the series evolved.

You're right that Obi-Wan's story about Luke's father being betrayed hints at more dark details. It still wasn't what Lucas originally thought of, by all accounts I know of. Similarly, Luke reaching out to Leia seems consistent with them being siblings, but isn't necessarily indicated except by juicy-plot-twist-invention-logic, as Empire already had Vader intentionally torturing Luke's friends because he expected Luke to be attuned to them so that the torture would send a psychic signal that would lure him there.