Quote from: HinterWelt;221169I guess I am a bit of a hardass here. I am sure someone will do a bait and switch on me but indentured servitude, voluntary by a consenting adult, is the fault of the signee. If you volunteer for the suicide mission and die, hey, you volunteered. If the agreement is above board and enforced, yeah, I don't think the guy indenturing people is noble peace prize material, but as long as he is not forcing anyone, hey, it is their choice. I do not subscribe to "protect the ignorant from themselves". But then, I am probably some sort of heartless conservative now.

You think these people are taking these jobs out of ignorance?!  They are taking them out of need.

Quote from: walkerp;221224You think these people are taking these jobs out of ignorance?!  They are taking them out of need.

When people are desperate, the idea of consent becomes a very questionable.  Some of the people who get into these situations don't really understand what they are getting into until it's too late and they can't get out.  But regardless of whether it's desperation or ignorance, what makes it evil is when the people can't choose to get out of it.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;221216

I am not going to Morrow this with you. It comes down to choice. Those women had no choice. They arrived and they were imprisoned. Not with chains and whips but with documentation and ignorance. They did not sign up for what they were delivered. Now, if someone says "Come with me and live in America! Oh, and sign this." and you do, well, that is your fault. Does it suck? Sure. But you had a choice. If someone comes up to a person and they say "Here is something too good to be true." and they take it, who's fault is it? The guy offering it? The person who just signs up without reading it first?

So, you did pretty good with the bait and switch. Not too much but enough to cloud the issue. Back on track, if you get shanghaied, or have the deal switched, hell yeah, that is fundamentally wrong. If you walk into it and sign up hoping to get something for nothing, then you are greedy and stupid and get what you deserve. So, no, if you "must" do it as Walker says, then no, to me, that is unacceptable. Being forced into slavery is wrong. Signing up for it with your eyes open, I can't have too much sympathy.

Bill

Quote from: John Morrow;221233When people are desperate, the idea of consent becomes a very questionable.  Some of the people who get into these situations don't really understand what they are getting into until it's too late and they can't get out.  But regardless of whether it's desperation or ignorance, what makes it evil is when the people can't choose to get out of it.

More eloquently put than my point but true nonetheless. Choice is the key. Sometimes that choice is seemingly impossibly difficult but it is a choice.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;221241More eloquently put than my point but true nonetheless. Choice is the key. Sometimes that choice is seemingly impossibly difficult but it is a choice.

Part of my point, though, is that a choice made out of desperation may not be much of a choice.

Quote from: John Morrow;221247Part of my point, though, is that a choice made out of desperation may not be much of a choice.

And I appreciate that. However, if there is truly choice, and you seemed to touch on the illusion of choice that can exist, that must be a voluntary choice of entering into and participating in an agreement or to leave it behind. Either one has consequences. Life is hard and sometimes requires hard choices. On the other side though, if there is no choice (forced into slavery) then that is wrong.

I believe the problem I am facing is one of definition. To me, force is not a case of "you had another choice, but you wanted money and thought this was the way" but one of "A victim is bent to a slavers will, whether by force, legal manipulation or other anti-social methods".

Bill

I hope you go bust one day, Bill. I really do.

Quote from: J Arcane;221192On a lot of farms these days they've just flat out resorted to having them live entirely on site.  Not allowed to leave.  Not allowed any contact with the outside world.  Kept as slaves in shacks, often under threat of violence.

How do you know this?

Quote from: J Arcane;221192I do know one thing.  It, more than anything else in the whole country, makes me disgusted by my very citizenship.

Have you done anything about it?

Quote from: HinterWelt;221240So, you did pretty good with the bait and switch. Not too much but enough to cloud the issue.

The problem is that the issue is cloudy to begin with.

It's not either an entirely free and informed choice or ignorant-at-gunpoint. There are degrees to things.

That's not "bait and switch", that's "nuance".

I'm a bit puzzled as to why people in one situation of oppression it's "oh no, poor dears, the bastards who oppressed them must die!" and people in another situation of oppression it's "fuck 'em, their choice." Why tears and angst for one and smug contempt for the other? There is a difference of degree, but not as large as the difference in reaction. The strongest difference is the gender of the victims; we tend to have more sympathy for oppressed women than men.

In any case, it's a matter of degree. Things are cloudy to begin with.

The other issue is that there are some things which are wrong to do regardless of "consent". Sometimes people will be willing for you to fuck them over and rip them off - it's still wrong to do it. If a worker consents to a contract which allows the employer the right to flog him if he's late to work, he may have consented, but it remains wrong to flog him.

Society and people need to be guided by some principle better than "hey, if you can get away with it, fuck 'em."

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;221320The other issue is that there are some things which are wrong to do regardless of "consent". Sometimes people will be willing for you to fuck them over and rip them off - it's still wrong to do it. If a worker consents to a contract which allows the employer the right to flog him if he's late to work, he may have consented, but it remains wrong to flog him.

What makes it "wrong?"

Don't try that postmodernist, deconstructionist, moral relativist horseshit here, Engine. Take that shit to Tangency over on rpg.net, where when that crazy German killed his lover and ate him with his consent, people said, "Well, why not? He asked for it."

If you cannot see why some things are wrong even if consented to, then there is no basis for seeing them as wrong even if not consented to. If there is no basis for values higher than consent and human happiness, then there is no basis for the value of consent or human happiness, either. In which case there is no way of saying what is right or wrong, and logically we should all become sociopaths.

Not even Libertarians are that crazy, only people who spent too long in the literary criticism part of the English Faculty at uni.

Take that shit away from here and fuck off, otherwise I will end up swinging so far out I end up agreeing with John Morrow, and then where the fuck would we be?

Quote from: droog;221307I hope you go bust one day, Bill. I really do.

Thank you, been there, done that. I have been so poor I had nothing but the clothes on my back. Guess what? I pulled myself together and changed my life. Not an easy feat. Not a series of small decisions that had few consequences. Serious and painful choices. I am doing much better now. And before you ask, no, I do not come from wealth, I did not inherit anything and my family, when I was growing up, were below the poverty line for a family of 3 (hint: there were more than three people in my family). :0

Bill

I hope it happens again.

Sorry but I have to Morrow on you.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;221320The problem is that the issue is cloudy to begin with.

Perhaps just a conflict of definitions since I see it as complex, not nuanced or cloudy.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;221320It's not either an entirely free and informed choice or ignorant-at-gunpoint. There are degrees to things.

Ah, my issue is you present a couple of issues. First, democracy has littel to do with it to me. It is power. I think we agree with this but you are equating democracy with power. I am saying, if you have a monarchy, those who rank int he monarchy, have a say in the government, will not be slaves. This is not an integral part of democracy but can be a part of it like any governemnt. If you have a democracy and only the educated can vote, then those without the qualifications to vote are at risk. It is not a given that slavery will exist, a possibility yes, but not a given.

Second, what I believe your examples showed was poverty combined with cultural openness to usury and poor risk analysis skills. Sure, a pump would be good but you need to weigh that against what you stand to lose. Poverty tends to take choices out of the mix and make them much more difficult and nasty but they are still there.

Finally, tied to the above, is the idea that somehow you should be able to take a loan and not pay it back. More to the root of it, some sort of "Poverty sucks". Man, you will not get an argument from me. The difference is you need to alter the conditions so that it is not considered right and legal to use usury to take control of land. That is another complex issue.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;221320That's not "bait and switch", that's "nuance".

I'm a bit puzzled as to why people in one situation of oppression it's "oh no, poor dears, the bastards who oppressed them must die!" and people in another situation of oppression it's "fuck 'em, their choice." Why tears and angst for one and smug contempt for the other? There is a difference of degree, but not as large as the difference in reaction. The strongest difference is the gender of the victims; we tend to have more sympathy for oppressed women than men.

Kyle, no. It does not matter if it is a man or a woman. It is about
1. it happened in my country. I was, and am, offended that it did. It is but one example although an extreme one.

2. In one case, it is about people being offered an opportunity. When they arrive, they have their passports confiscated and the mistreatment and detention begins. In another (not necessarily the one you seem to be ascribing to me) you sign a contract that says you will work for compensation minus housing, transportation, etc. One is akin to raiding the coast, the other is more like the Roman civitas gladitores. Note: I am not approving of writing up a contract that says one thing, then is ignored when you are under the power of the signor.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;221320In any case, it's a matter of degree. Things are cloudy to begin with.

The other issue is that there are some things which are wrong to do regardless of "consent". Sometimes people will be willing for you to fuck them over and rip them off - it's still wrong to do it. If a worker consents to a contract which allows the employer the right to flog him if he's late to work, he may have consented, but it remains wrong to flog him.

Society and people need to be guided by some principle better than "hey, if you can get away with it, fuck 'em."

Again, I don't know who you are arguing with but it is not me. I have said that the anti-social behavior of the "slave-masters" is not appropriate. I am not saying they should be praised, rewarded or even tolerated. My point is, you need to own your decisions. If your ability to make decisions are taken from you, then you do not have a decision to make...

Bill

Quote from: droog;221338I hope it happens again.

And I hope you are raped by a rabid kangaroo...is there a point to this? I mean really? Do you want to discuss how decisions and risk analysis in your life can keep a great deal of these problems at bay or are you just venting at someone you feel has not suffered enough in his life?

If you trying to seriously discuss poverty and how your noble crusade will eliminate it then I am all ears. Me, I may go bust again. I tend to take risks. I am aware of my risks and tend to wager what I can lose but there are always factors that can figure in that push you over the edge. If I do, it will be hard for a bit but I will come back. Not because someone gives me a handout, not because someone protects me from my own bad decisions. It will be because I make good decisions, use what is available in my society, because i have planned and trained myself to be in demand in society and because I can evaluate risks.

So, party on Droog.

Bill