Quote from: droog;222779Let's posit then that there is no natural order in human culture, and that man makes himself. What do you think?

Eh...that gets into some pretty heavy philosophy there.

I tend to subscribe to the theories promoted by Tim Leary and Robert Anton Wilson, namely that people are essentially domesticated primates -- well trained monkeys who don't really think about what they are doing, they just sort of do it because they were trained to do it -- and that occasionally people "wake up" or "snap out" of the trance and actually become fully conscious and intentional human beings.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222701Okay, so your success wasn't entirely due to your own efforts. Your community, your country, other people's taxes helped you.

Something to bear in mind next time you want to go on a "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, I did!" rant.

Sigh. No, it was me. I needed to qualify for those programs. Heck, I needed to apply which you would be amazed the number of people that just I knew who could not be bothered. I then had to maintain a GPA or they would take those benefits away. Also, to be clear, I have absolutely no doubt, considering the amount I earned (and don't fool yourself, I earned it) I could have found an alternate way. In the end, yes, it is your choice. I could easily have followed in my father's illiterate, 9th grade educated footsteps and worked at the factory he did. He wanted more for me but did not know anything more than "Go to College". He gave the same advice to my sister, she ignored it. I went and I found the curriculum that worked for me. Note: A whole crapload of me and I there.

Now, despite your attempts to characterize me otherwise, I have said I am in favor of social programs. Still, you can have all the social programs in the world and it wont do any good if the person does not take responsibility, make choices for themselves and take action. What do you want, to take all choice from a person? I am sure the logic would be "for their own good". You may want to live in that world but I would rather have the ability to choose my own future.

Bill

Quote from: jgants;222900No, I get what you are saying.  I'm saying that human nature being what it is, a system of perfect equality is the only hope of your proposed system slipping back into our current system.  My argument is that inequality will inevitably breed exploitation, regardless of the system in place.

This is why I hate arguing this with people.  I kind of doubt you really understand the system I'm proposing, since I haven't really proposed much.  And then there's your argument, which really seems to be little more than bland assertion.

QuoteAnd you have a rather naive view of humanity.  History is on my side - how do you think we got where we are today?  Money-lending was the foundation of the merchant class and economic exploitation - the evils of which were talked about as far back as the time of Christ.

I don't see history as being on your side. I can actually think of very few examples of major backsliding occurring -- the Dark Ages were one, and they weren't quite as bad as many people seem to think.  Maybe I am naive, but I do believe in progress.  In two-thousand years since Christ, we've managed to go from less than .01% of the population being politically enfranchised to well over 25%.  Democracy is still the most powerful and desired form of government around the world.  Few countries that have achieved democracy have shown any significant desire to repeal democracy and return to world of authoritarian rule by elites (aristocracy).

I honestly can't imagine how that would occur if/when democracy is introduced to the workplace.  Once a tipping point is achieved, and most people work in or are aware of democratic workplaces, and democratic workplaces become seen as normal, I really think it's going to be hard to go back.  Much like once the hourly wage was introduced and became the norm, the daily wage and piecemeal wage were never able to stage a comeback, despite being far more effective tools for the exploitation of workers.

QuoteThe problem you have there is that the democratic workplaces will be less economically efficient than the authoritarian workplaces (paying employees less = lower prices = more purchases from consumers = Wal*Mart).  They will have a difficult time competing with the authoritarian workplaces, except for tiny niche markets (see grocery co-ops).

Yes, but those authoritarian megacorporations rely heavily on government subsidization.  Wal-Mart, for example, is only able to sell as low as it does because it has a strong relationships with China and takes serious advantage of slave labor in China.  Wal-Mart is not operating in a free market.

QuoteAgain, human nature being what it is, the authoritarian model businesses will drive the democratic ones out of business, by capturing the majority of the market share and/or simply using their profits to buy out the democratic competition (see grocery co-ops, organic farms, independent film studios, etc).

Human nature has nothing to do with it.

QuoteThus, my argument that the only way your ideal would actually have a chance is if employment was outlawed.

Your argument relies on "human nature", which is a very, very weak argument indeed.  It's essentially a nonargument, you're really only asserting that you have a very dim view of humanity.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697For anyone, but not everyone.

That's the typical zero-sum view that for there to be winners there have to be losers but it doesn't really work out that way.  Take a good look at what kind of housing and goods a person below poverty has in the United States.  Did you ever wonder how we could have nasty heat waves like those in Europe in 2003 but don't lose 15,000 or more poor and elderly people in the process?  It's because 2/3rds of the people living in poverty have air conditioners.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697The US has one million legal migrants a year. I do not imagine you seriously propose that all 1,000,000 can become wealthy. How many, then? 100,000? 10,000? 1,000? Shall we be generous beyond the realms of economic reason, and say it's 0.1%, and thus 1,000?

So, 1 in 1,000 people beginning with nothing can become wealthy. But 999 can't.

So you are proving your point with made up statistics?  So how does your 1,000 wealthy immigrants a year square with the picture painted by this article which talks about only one group of immigrants and only one part of the United States?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697Surely those other 999 aren't all lazy and undeserving? So is it not true that for most people, hard work, ingenuity and effort are rewarded but poorly?

As I've already said, hard work is not sufficent and talk of people being "deserving" or not is cosmic justice foolishness.  But, yes, plenty of people do sabotage themselves and purposely avoid doing what they need to get ahead.

My cousin manages the property for a shopping mall in Southern California and he manages many very had working Hispanic immigrants.  He's offered to send some of his long-time and promising employees to training to learn English and other skills with an offer to pay them more if they do and he's had employees refuse because they were happy the way they were.  Not conincidentally, he told me those same employees that refused are the guys who blow a significant part of their paycheck on lottery tickets.  So, yes, I do think that poor people and immigrants can put themselves into a position where their own behavior keeps them back, regardless how how hard they work at menial tasks (he said that the guys who refused were good workers) and no matter how deserving even their employer might think they are.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697Surely those other 999 aren't all lazy and undeserving? So is it not true that for most people, hard work, ingenuity and effort are rewarded but poorly?

I like the way you build this detailed conclusion on figures that you pulled out of thin air.  If you ever visit the New York City area, I'll be happy to take you on a tour of some of the immigrant neighborhoods around me.  Even among the Hispanic immigrants, exactly where they come makes a large difference because, well, culture matters.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697As others have observed, this is true of most Western countries. Anyone can be rich, but not everyone can be rich. And many people who work hard and honestly, far from becoming rich, receive little or no reward for it. Whereas a number of people who are lazy and dishonest exploit others and find great rewards for it - for example, the people whose actions began this thread. Most people enslaving or exploiting others receive no punishment at all.

And that's because many of the pepole enslaving or exploiting others in the West are (A) enslaving or exploiting illegal aliens who don't want to go to the authorities and/or (B) are part of a subculture of people that is relatively closed and difficult for the authorities to penetrate (and who may not speak the local langauge).  For the police to infiltrate a group, they need reliable police officers who can "pass" in the group they are trying to infiltrate, which is neither quick nor safe.  And it's not just businesses that take advantage of these situations to exploit and abuse people.  Take a look at the prevalence of coercive arranged marriages in certain communities in the West that has nothing to do with greedy businessmen or government-approved exploitation but the cultures of those immigrants groups, themselves.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697Working hard and honestly and being creative give you a tiny chance of great prosperity. Being lazy and dishonest and exploiting others greatly enhances that chance of prosperity. If you don't have to pay people proper wages it's a lot easier for your company to win contracts and be very profitable.

Yet, many of the examples that have been mentioned so far involve people who have been caught and, when caught, sent to jail.  

And I suppose I should point out that one of the ways in which immigrant small business owners cheat and one of the biggest reasons why they pay employees under the table is not to cheat their employees but to avoid taxes.  Payroll taxes and social security contributions take a big bite out of businesses and I've heard plenty of cases of legal businesses paying legal employees under the table at rates well over the minimum wage simply to avoid the taxes and paperwork involved with legal employment.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697Which is the problem with the system we have: it rewards laziness, dishonesty and exploitation more reliably than it rewards hard work, honesty and creativity. Of course no system is immune from exploitation, but our current system seems to be particularly prone to it.

Now we're back to the laziness and I'll again point out that lazy business woners, legal or illegal, don't succeed.  One can be hard working and greedy at the same time.  Our system isn't prone to laziness, dishonesty, and exploitation but it happens.  So what do you think things are like in other parts of the world?  Have you ever taken a look at how immigrants treat and abuse each other?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697For anyone, but not everyone.

That's the typical zero-sum view that for there to be winners there have to be losers but it doesn't really work out that way.  Take a good look at what kind of housing and goods a person below poverty has in the United States.  Did you ever wonder how we could have nasty heat waves like those in Europe in 2003 but don't lose 15,000 or more poor and elderly people in the process?  It's because 2/3rds of the people living in poverty have air conditioners.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697The US has one million legal migrants a year. I do not imagine you seriously propose that all 1,000,000 can become wealthy. How many, then? 100,000? 10,000? 1,000? Shall we be generous beyond the realms of economic reason, and say it's 0.1%, and thus 1,000?

So, 1 in 1,000 people beginning with nothing can become wealthy. But 999 can't.

So you are proving your point with made up statistics?  So how does your 1,000 wealthy immigrants a year square with the picture painted by this article which talks about only one group of immigrants and only one part of the United States?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697Surely those other 999 aren't all lazy and undeserving? So is it not true that for most people, hard work, ingenuity and effort are rewarded but poorly?

As I've already said, hard work is not sufficent and talk of people being "deserving" or not is cosmic justice foolishness.  But, yes, plenty of people do sabotage themselves and purposely avoid doing what they need to get ahead.

My cousin manages the property for a shopping mall in Southern California and he manages many very had working Hispanic immigrants.  He's offered to send some of his long-time and promising employees to training to learn English and other skills with an offer to pay them more if they do and he's had employees refuse because they were happy the way they were.  Not conincidentally, he told me those same employees that refused are the guys who blow a significant part of their paycheck on lottery tickets.  So, yes, I do think that poor people and immigrants can put themselves into a position where their own behavior keeps them back, regardless how how hard they work at menial tasks (he said that the guys who refused were good workers) and no matter how deserving even their employer might think they are.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697Surely those other 999 aren't all lazy and undeserving? So is it not true that for most people, hard work, ingenuity and effort are rewarded but poorly?

I like the way you build this detailed conclusion on figures that you pulled out of thin air.  If you ever visit the New York City area, I'll be happy to take you on a tour of some of the immigrant neighborhoods around me.  Even among the Hispanic immigrants, exactly where they come makes a large difference because, well, culture matters.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697As others have observed, this is true of most Western countries. Anyone can be rich, but not everyone can be rich. And many people who work hard and honestly, far from becoming rich, receive little or no reward for it. Whereas a number of people who are lazy and dishonest exploit others and find great rewards for it - for example, the people whose actions began this thread. Most people enslaving or exploiting others receive no punishment at all.

And that's because many of the pepole enslaving or exploiting others in the West are (A) enslaving or exploiting illegal aliens who don't want to go to the authorities and/or (B) are part of a subculture of people that is relatively closed and difficult for the authorities to penetrate (and who may not speak the local langauge).  For the police to infiltrate a group, they need reliable police officers who can "pass" in the group they are trying to infiltrate, which is neither quick nor safe.  And it's not just businesses that take advantage of these situations to exploit and abuse people.  Take a look at the prevalence of coercive arranged marriages in certain communities in the West that has nothing to do with greedy businessmen or government-approved exploitation but the cultures of those immigrants groups, themselves.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697Working hard and honestly and being creative give you a tiny chance of great prosperity. Being lazy and dishonest and exploiting others greatly enhances that chance of prosperity. If you don't have to pay people proper wages it's a lot easier for your company to win contracts and be very profitable.

Yet, many of the examples that have been mentioned so far involve people who have been caught and, when caught, sent to jail.  

And I suppose I should point out that one of the ways in which immigrant small business owners cheat and one of the biggest reasons why they pay employees under the table is not to cheat their employees but to avoid taxes.  Payroll taxes and social security contributions take a big bite out of businesses and I've heard plenty of cases of legal businesses paying legal employees under the table at rates well over the minimum wage simply to avoid the taxes and paperwork involved with legal employment.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222697Which is the problem with the system we have: it rewards laziness, dishonesty and exploitation more reliably than it rewards hard work, honesty and creativity. Of course no system is immune from exploitation, but our current system seems to be particularly prone to it.

Now we're back to the laziness and I'll again point out that lazy business woners, legal or illegal, don't succeed.  One can be hard working and greedy at the same time.  Our system isn't prone to laziness, dishonesty, and exploitation but it happens.  So what do you think things are like in other parts of the world?  Have you ever taken a look at how immigrants treat and abuse each other?