TheRPGSite

The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Pseudoephedrine on July 25, 2007, 06:10:00 pm

Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on July 25, 2007, 06:10:00 pm
Seriously. I was telling some guys about Iron Heroes and got kicked for "spamming". The channel has been pretty unfriendly to actual discussion of RPGs for the past six to eight months I've been going there (discussions about food and BDSM seem more their thing), but this is just ridiculous.

Does anyone know any better channels for RPG discussion, or still use #therpgsite?
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: J Arcane on July 25, 2007, 06:35:08 pm
Didn't you know, Pseudo?  You're apparently part of a conspiracy with JimBob to attack #rpgnet.  :rolleyes:

Quote

03:36   Cith   Yeah, i figured he was up to something like that. He's pulled that wall of text thing to try and stir trouble before when he and jimbob were trying to get the #therpgsite channel going.
-
03:40   J_Arcane   Eh.
   Cith   Iron Heroes was a pretty fun iteration of D20, but suffered from Mearls leaving the project too early. It really could have used a revised edition to patch up some holes (like sorcery)
   J_Arcane   He was talking about RPGs. And there's plenty of regulars here more than happy to "spam" the channel with extended talk about certain browser MMOs, or Nobilis, or spirit of the Century, or their latest charsheet design, or just hours and hours of endless punwars.
03:41   J_Arcane   If we start banning people for that this channel will get awful quiet.

   Cith   J, if he hadn't pulled similar stunts in the past with JimBob, trying to make a drama out of how "no one ever discusses rpgs here", I'd agree. But the reality is, it's a pattern of behavior for him, and he was looking for trouble now, just as he had before, to create drama over it. Hence the immediate thread on therpgsite.com

   J_Arcane   Or, it's jsut the way he types, and he talks in exactly the same fashion in any of the other channels I've spoken with him on, and actually a fairly similar fashion to how I have been known to do when my thoughts are running faster than my fingers.
      
   J_Arcane   But hey, let's jump to conspiracy theory instead, it works for the Pundit.
   
   Cith   J, again, he's pulled the same stunt before with JimBob. God forbid we observe folks behavior, and learn from it.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on July 25, 2007, 07:26:02 pm
Man, that's hilarious. That guy really believes all that paranoid crap? :rolleyes:
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on July 25, 2007, 07:29:51 pm
BTW, what _are_ some good other rpg discussion channels? I'm not going back to #rpgnet.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Koltar on July 25, 2007, 08:26:49 pm
Pseudo - you're posting to one.


 Zheesh!!!


- Ed C.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Dr Rotwang! on July 25, 2007, 10:00:43 pm
Wow.  That's a craptacle of absolutely blowtastic proportions.

Not to mention really fucking stupid.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Dan Davenport on July 25, 2007, 10:12:02 pm
Just for the record? There's plenty of RPG discussion at #rpgnet.

A filibuster about a given RPG is not a "discussion".
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: J Arcane on July 25, 2007, 10:13:44 pm
Quote from: Dan Davenport
Just for the record? There's plenty of RPG discussion at #rpgnet.

A filibuster about a given RPG is not a "discussion".

So then are we going to start banning people for the 3-4 hour long discussions of Nobilis or Exalted?
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Serious Paul on July 25, 2007, 10:42:16 pm
Quote from: Dan Davenport
Just for the record? There's plenty of RPG discussion at #rpgnet.


Says the guy who has to specifically make a post to prove his point.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Silverlion on July 25, 2007, 11:00:39 pm
That's why of course there is  #rpgchat on the same server, when people started getting kicked for RPG discussion long ago, I started it up.

Quiet most of the time, but you won't get kicked for game stuff :) (other than The Game that should not be named anyway :D)
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Kyle Aaron on July 26, 2007, 12:04:09 am
The next time I'm in a conspiracy, could someone tell me please?

I already missed out on being part of the Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy. I'd really like to be part of one I'm supposedly a member of.

I actually popped into #rpgnet just yesterday. There was a slow discussion of turning word docs into pdf and me and some other guy were promoting OpenOffice. After less than a screen's conversation in two hours, I wandered off... There were about 30 people in the channel, but only 3 or 4 talking.

I'd given up on #therpgsite, because running a successful channel takes constant promotion, which isn't really my thing. I get enough rpg discussion from this and a couple of other sites, and I am always available on MSN IM if people want to chat with me directly for some reason.

Dunno, really, about any other chat rooms. I'm pleased to hear #rpgchat is still going.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: RPGPundit on July 26, 2007, 12:15:07 am
I too had visited #rpgnet frequently at one point, using a name that wasn't recognizably mine (so as not to stir controversy at my very presence) just to see if there was anything worth chatting about.  After multiple visits where not only was there no talking about RPGs going on, but any talk about RPGs was intentionally derailed by most of the chat-members who'd try to spam such conversation until everyone went back to talking about bacon or whatever the fuck Tangency-topic they were all on about, I gave up on the place.  It was pointless drivel.

RPGPundit
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on July 26, 2007, 02:04:20 am
Quote from: Dan Davenport
Just for the record? There's plenty of RPG discussion at #rpgnet.

A filibuster about a given RPG is not a "discussion".


There's very little discussion of RPGs at #rpgnet, especially considering its name is #RPGnet not #BlackIsisandDeitalkabouttheircodependentBDSMrelationshipnet or #whatkindoffoodshouldIeatnet. I tried to change that in a positive way, by talking about RPGs I liked, and the games I was running, and how to run games, etc. and got very little response from anyone other than Grimgent, CW Richeson and JA in the many months I tried to do so. There was no "conspiracy" or even any ill-will until earlier today.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Deirdre on July 26, 2007, 05:40:19 am
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine
There's very little discussion of RPGs at #rpgnet, especially considering its name is #RPGnet not #BlackIsisandDeitalkabouttheircodependentBDSMrelationshipnet or #whatkindoffoodshouldIeatnet.


Classy. Listen, I'm not sure if you were just blowing smoke about not coming back, but trust me, it's really not your call anymore. Consider yourself banned.

And in answer to other comments about the 'signal top noise' ratio of the channel, there are a few things people need to understand about #rpgnet. The first is that it's a fairly old channel as far as these sorts of things go, and that such channels tend to have developed their own little cultures (interperet that word as you see fit ;) ) and that a certain amount of drift from the initial topic is to be expected. It should also be understood that many of the channel's users remain logged in and use the channel as online background noise for their other activities such as posting to various message boards, playing web based games, watching television, 'blogging, whatever. So if you see a whole bunch of us, we're not necessarily ignoring you; though that may also be the case, as a good number of us had taken to ignoring Pseudoephedrine for his habit of setting up giant, rolling walls of text and using the channel as his personal campaign blog rather than engaging in two sided discussions. Mind, he was never kicked or disciplined for this until it was suspected that since his behaviour was so utterly insensitive to the rest of the participants that he must be forcibly trying to shape the channel into what he believed it should be.

I'm very sorry that the channel doesn't conform to some people's expectations of what it should be. But I think that those people need to also understand that the channel's existence pre-dates their expectations of it by *years*, and that those of us to who use it, like it for what it is: gaming and geek culture related discussion among a handful of admittedly cliquey but not entirely exclusive online friends. People are welcome to join in and to do so in the same way as *any* online community, by joining, listening, participating, and giving it time. Charging in and using the channel as a blog and becoming irate when it isn't about you or your needs at that very moment is extremely immature and will not be well-received. And even then, if it isn't for you it isn't for you.

PS - I'd like to expand on a few points, but work calls.

PPS - Apologies for jumping into the board in the off-topic section, but this seriously needed to be answered.

-deirdre: channel operator at magicstar's #rpgnet channel
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: J Arcane on July 26, 2007, 05:49:28 am
Have any of the other ops actually read the logs from the offending conversation?  Besides Cith of course, who made it abundantly clear to me that he had some kind of personal vendetta at stake.  

'Cause it really sounds an awful lot like you guys are jsut reciting rote because of what you've been told.  

I'd be more than happy to repost the logs of both the conversation that was apparently so bad as to deserve banning, as well as the rather wonderful conversation we had the night prior about the subject of family in RPGs.  And then maybe for comparison, I could wait until the next 3 hour long blitz on Pardus or KoL or Nobilis, where maybe 2- 3 people at best hijack the channel at the expense of any other topic of conversation.

Or would that conflict too badly with the party line?
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Tyberious Funk on July 26, 2007, 07:23:39 am
Quote from: Deirdre
I'm very sorry that the channel doesn't conform to some people's expectations of what it should be.


Y'know, I don't really think you are.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: JamesV on July 26, 2007, 07:38:10 am
This thread brings me to Hard Learned Truth of the Internet #2:
Name does not always describe content.

I still have to relearn this truth from time to time, but I always do to a small amount of disappointment.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: jrients on July 26, 2007, 08:40:07 am
Speaking of classy, I'm not amused that Deidre's first (and probably only) post here is to inform a member that they are banned elsewhere.  All other factors aside, that strikes me as pretty poor form.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: droog on July 26, 2007, 08:47:57 am
It's a diplomatic incident! This calls for WAR!
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Ronin on July 26, 2007, 09:08:48 am
Quote from: droog
It's a diplomatic incident! This calls for WAR!

Quick the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Franz Ferdinand has been killed. Send a communication to Kaiser Wilhelm. Requesting he join us in counter attacking the Entente Powers.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Dan Davenport on July 26, 2007, 09:18:26 am
Quote from: J Arcane
Have any of the other ops actually read the logs from the offending conversation?  Besides Cith of course, who made it abundantly clear to me that he had some kind of personal vendetta at stake.  

'Cause it really sounds an awful lot like you guys are jsut reciting rote because of what you've been told.  

I'd be more than happy to repost the logs of both the conversation that was apparently so bad as to deserve banning, as well as the rather wonderful conversation we had the night prior about the subject of family in RPGs.  And then maybe for comparison, I could wait until the next 3 hour long blitz on Pardus or KoL or Nobilis, where maybe 2- 3 people at best hijack the channel at the expense of any other topic of conversation.

Or would that conflict too badly with the party line?


Yup, I've read the log now. Thank you for providing it, JA.

First of all, the fact that you're citing instances of 3-hour conversations regarding RPGs would seem to give lie to the idea that RPG discussion isn't allowed on the channel.

Secondly, the instances you're citing are discussions.

Would you agree that RPG discussion is welcome in an RPG store?

If so, try this: walk into such a store, and immediately begin holding forth on how awesome your current game/character/whatever is.

At length.

In detail.

Do not stop talking about it long enough for anyone to actually discuss it with you if they're of a mind to do so.

In fact, don't stop talking about it when it is fairly obvious that nobody is all that interested in the subject.

Do this repeatedly.

Then, when you are finally asked to leave or keep it down, you can no doubt conclude that RPG discussion isn't allowed in that RPG store.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Drew on July 26, 2007, 09:45:12 am
I haven't seen the logs so I won't comment on the substance of the initial argument, but it seems like Pseudo has just been banned from #rpgnet for the content of a post here.

If so then it's possibly one of the worst instances of a site administration overstepping it's authority I've seen.

Quote
Classy. Listen, I'm not sure if you were just blowing smoke about not coming back, but trust me, it's really not your call anymore. Consider yourself banned.


Seeing as Deirdre has seen fit to post on these boards, would she mind clarifying exactly what happened here?

EDIT: The reason I ask is that Pseudophedrine says he's been "kicked" in his opening post, whilst Deirdre's language in the above quote implies the ban only took effect as a result of his complaints in this thread.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Serious Paul on July 26, 2007, 10:46:14 am
Wow they've banned so many people elsewhere they had to come here to ban more?

Truly they are the chosen ones!
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Spike on July 26, 2007, 11:58:28 am
I've a mind to exerpt part of Deirdre's post but I'll just trust everyone else saw much of what I did too.

Just because the current users have, over the course of years, developed a culture of their own does this make it right, in whatever moral, ethical, subjective or objective system you use... to resist any changes to that culture from a metaphorical 'new generation' of users?

Now if the owner/operator of the site had set out long years ago with the intent of setting up that specific culture, then yes, I would agree that there was some right to defend it from 'culture drift'... people pay to run those things as I understand it.  If they merely enjoy the culture that formed, I'd suggest they have somewhat less solid ground to stand on.  

Right now? from descriptions from Deirdre, as much as others, I'd say the channel sounds pretty fucking dead.  Most of the active users use it as nothing more than background noise?   Conversations aren't really about anything but keeping in touch with the other old guard users? Let it fucking die, then. Or let new, fresh people revitalize it.

I'm not going to defend Psuedo. I don't know the rightness or the wrongness of his actions, and I don't care.  I just think that defending 'to the death' if you will allow for hyperbole, an entrenched culture is stagnation and rot. I fear for the world these people would create IRL if they had the chance.   Not that I care, I already fear for the world that is apparently coming IRL, or would if I didn't realize just how false our heavily polished images of the past really were.

Where the fuck are my windmills? I've got giants to slay!
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Thanatos02 on July 26, 2007, 12:22:33 pm
Quote from: Deirdre
Classy. Listen, I'm not sure if you were just blowing smoke about not coming back, but trust me, it's really not your call anymore. Consider yourself banned.


Slick. Do you Google mentions of your channel to ban dissatisfied chatters or something?
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Thanatos02 on July 26, 2007, 12:24:02 pm
Quote from: Serious Paul
Wow they've banned so many people elsewhere they had to come here to ban more?

Truly they are the chosen ones!

If they're running out, they could ban me, I guess. I just snarked in an operators directions, and I think that's enough.

'a course, it's not like I chat there or anything, so... (That is to say, I'm posting tongue-in-cheek, but it really did seem funny & odd)
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Serious Paul on July 26, 2007, 12:28:20 pm
Way to be a team player Thanatos! That's what makes me love this site: it's the caring. We're a family, and fuck with one of us and you get the horns baby!

Now where'd I leave that horn of blasting?
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: JamesV on July 26, 2007, 12:53:29 pm
Quote from: Serious Paul
Way to be a team player Thanatos! That's what makes me love this site: it's the caring. We're a family, and fuck with one of us and you get the horns baby!

Now where'd I leave that horn of blasting?


For some reason, it seems you left it right next to my phylactery of who-gives-a-shit. Which I forgot to put on this morning, must be why I'm posting to this thread right now. :keke:
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Serious Paul on July 26, 2007, 01:04:50 pm
I just think it's funny people have to register with this site to defend their actions-I mean they run a whole 'nother site right? What the fuck do they care about some pranksters? I mean this pretty much gives some credence to one of the things Pundit likes to rant about: that they're reading.

Deny as they might, they're worried. And that's just silly. I mean it'd be like me getting all worked up because one of you cats called me a name or something? So what?

But I guess that's part of what makes this intarweb thing so fun: the crazies!
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: James J Skach on July 26, 2007, 01:06:11 pm
Quote from: Dan Davenport
Yup, I've read the log now. Thank you for providing it, JA.

First of all, the fact that you're citing instances of 3-hour conversations regarding RPGs would seem to give lie to the idea that RPG discussion isn't allowed on the channel.

Secondly, the instances you're citing are discussions.

Would you agree that RPG discussion is welcome in an RPG store?

If so, try this: walk into such a store, and immediately begin holding forth on how awesome your current game/character/whatever is.

At length.

In detail.

Do not stop talking about it long enough for anyone to actually discuss it with you if they're of a mind to do so.

In fact, don't stop talking about it when it is fairly obvious that nobody is all that interested in the subject.

Do this repeatedly.

Then, when you are finally asked to leave or keep it down, you can no doubt conclude that RPG discussion isn't allowed in that RPG store.

Look.  We all know Pseudo and Kyle can be a bit...verbose? Hell, I'd bet many of us in here (including me) have hit send on long pieces of verbal trash.

But to try to compare the communication in a FLGS with that on a chat channel is, at best, disingenuous.

No, Diedre's post says it all.  We don't want people who aren't part of the clique or do not amuse/interest the clique in a way that would ingratiate the poster.

Which is perfectly legitimate.  No different than Pundy saying GNS is no default at TheRPGSite.  Only difference is, as Spike points out, the channel is named RPG but is really just a keep-in-touch channel for a bunch of folks.

Could the confusion be remedied? Sure.  It won't, but it could.

And trust me, this is coming from someone who does not get along well with pseudo.  But shit, this is just silly.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: JamesV on July 26, 2007, 01:17:51 pm
Quote from: Serious Paul
I just think it's funny people have to register with this site to defend their actions-I mean they run a whole 'nother site right? What the fuck do they care about some pranksters? I mean this pretty much gives some credence to one of the things Pundit likes to rant about: that they're reading.

Deny as they might, they're worried. And that's just silly. I mean it'd be like me getting all worked up because one of you cats called me a name or something? So what?

But I guess that's part of what makes this intarweb thing so fun: the crazies!


I've figured this out as one of those situations where they try to good-naturedly explain their actions and instead dig the hole deeper by saying stupid stuff that justifies everyone's suspicions. It's just a shame that I can't think of any chat alternatives to #rpgnetbutonlytheonestheestablishedcultureapprovesof
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Serious Paul on July 26, 2007, 01:21:47 pm
That seems like a fair enough assessment.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: C.W.Richeson on July 26, 2007, 01:27:09 pm
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine
Seriously. I was telling some guys about Iron Heroes and got kicked for "spamming".


Sorry to hear it, Pseudo.  :(

I enjoyed discussing Eberron with you in the channel back when.  Perhaps you could start your own channel and actively market it?
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: C.W.Richeson on July 26, 2007, 01:34:32 pm
It's a private chat channel, the owner can do as he pleases.  I guess I don't see the drama.  Being banned for the natural human act of complaining and seeking sympathy from friends elsewhere seems harsh, but the whole point of cultivating a group like that over many years is to create a community the owner and ops enjoy.  I'm not going to have someone over to roleplay who rubs me the wrong way, even if the person is otherwise a fine roleplayer.  I don't expect site or channel owners to do so either.

Quote from: JamesV
It's just a shame that I can't think of any chat alternatives to #rpgnetbutonlytheonestheestablishedcultureapprovesof


I never had that experience when I used the channel.  Rather, I'd have a response like "What's that?" if it was a truly obscure game.  I never felt like any game discussion was unwelcome.  In the past, users tended to be most familiar with d20 and Unisystem (which seems fairly representative of the hobby to me).

I always thought the channel was like having your roleplay friends over to the house to chat.  Sure you talk about games some, but you also cut up with each other, discuss life, and share other interests.  I think that's fairly representative of RPG.net as a whole - it's a community, not just a focused discussion group for RPGs.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Thanatos02 on July 26, 2007, 01:53:00 pm
Quote from: C.W.Richeson
It's a private chat channel, the owner can do as he pleases.  I guess I don't see the drama.


I don't see drama as much as it just seems kind of funny. And sure, they can do what they want. By all means! But if it's amusing and kind of dumb, then we can say that, too.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Serious Paul on July 26, 2007, 01:55:30 pm
A private chat room that allows public access? Perhaps they should just close their doors, after all it's a private chat room, and not open to new posters.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Dan Davenport on July 26, 2007, 02:10:10 pm
Quote from: Serious Paul
Wow they've banned so many people elsewhere they had to come here to ban more?

Truly they are the chosen ones!


Actually, we hadn't banned anyone from #rpgnet in a very long time. But please, don't let facts get in the way of your hyperbole.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: C.W.Richeson on July 26, 2007, 02:10:38 pm
Quote from: Serious Paul
A private chat room that allows public access? Perhaps they should just close their doors, after all it's a private chat room, and not open to new posters.


Please replace "private" with "privately owned" or "privately controlled" in my post above.  Its structure is not unlike all other fora and chat rooms.  I'm sure its open to anyone who wishes to participate, follow the rules, and adapt their own preferences to those of the community.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Dan Davenport on July 26, 2007, 02:12:55 pm
Quote from: Spike
I've a mind to exerpt part of Deirdre's post but I'll just trust everyone else saw much of what I did too.

Just because the current users have, over the course of years, developed a culture of their own does this make it right, in whatever moral, ethical, subjective or objective system you use... to resist any changes to that culture from a metaphorical 'new generation' of users?

Now if the owner/operator of the site had set out long years ago with the intent of setting up that specific culture, then yes, I would agree that there was some right to defend it from 'culture drift'... people pay to run those things as I understand it.  If they merely enjoy the culture that formed, I'd suggest they have somewhat less solid ground to stand on.  

Right now? from descriptions from Deirdre, as much as others, I'd say the channel sounds pretty fucking dead.  Most of the active users use it as nothing more than background noise?   Conversations aren't really about anything but keeping in touch with the other old guard users? Let it fucking die, then. Or let new, fresh people revitalize it.

I'm not going to defend Psuedo. I don't know the rightness or the wrongness of his actions, and I don't care.  I just think that defending 'to the death' if you will allow for hyperbole, an entrenched culture is stagnation and rot. I fear for the world these people would create IRL if they had the chance.   Not that I care, I already fear for the world that is apparently coming IRL, or would if I didn't realize just how false our heavily polished images of the past really were.

Where the fuck are my windmills? I've got giants to slay!


The size of #rpgnet's roughly doubled in the past few weeks due to a stickied thread in RPG Open. All of the newcomers seem quite happy there. The place doesn't exactly seem "dead" to me.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Spike on July 26, 2007, 02:14:21 pm
Quote from: Dan Davenport
Actually, we hadn't banned anyone from #rpgnet in a very long time. But please, don't let facts get in the way of your hyperbole.



Well, Deirdre's post strongly suggests that you have, in fact, banned someone quite recently in the person of Psuedoephedrine.  But don't let that get in the way of your knee jerk defenses.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Dan Davenport on July 26, 2007, 02:16:36 pm
Quote from: JamesV
I've figured this out as one of those situations where they try to good-naturedly explain their actions and instead dig the hole deeper by saying stupid stuff that justifies everyone's suspicions. It's just a shame that I can't think of any chat alternatives to #rpgnetbutonlytheonestheestablishedcultureapprovesof




Very simple. :)

Hell, you could create your own #rpgnet on a server other than magicstar if you wanted. It's not like RPGnet (the web site) has anything at all to do with the chatroom.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Dan Davenport on July 26, 2007, 02:17:44 pm
Quote from: Spike
Well, Deirdre's post strongly suggests that you have, in fact, banned someone quite recently in the person of Psuedoephedrine.  But don't let that get in the way of your knee jerk defenses.


Note that I said "hadn't", not "haven't".
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: C.W.Richeson on July 26, 2007, 02:18:20 pm
Quote from: Dan Davenport
Actually, we hadn't banned anyone from #rpgnet in a very long time. But please, don't let facts get in the way of your hyperbole.


I think he's assuming that #rpgnet = http://www.RPG.net, and thus is referring to bannings from the website as past bans.

It's probably a common misconception.  As I understand it, the places are only connected in name.  The goals, administration, and everything else are quite different.  Folk banned from RPG.net are not banned from the channel, and many have spent quite a bit of time there in the past.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Dan Davenport on July 26, 2007, 02:26:15 pm
Quote from: James J Skach
Look.  We all know Pseudo and Kyle can be a bit...verbose? Hell, I'd bet many of us in here (including me) have hit send on long pieces of verbal trash.

But to try to compare the communication in a FLGS with that on a chat channel is, at best, disingenuous.

No, Diedre's post says it all.  We don't want people who aren't part of the clique or do not amuse/interest the clique in a way that would ingratiate the poster.


That is incorrect, James. #rpgnet is one of the most welcoming places you're going to find, and we do, in fact, discuss RPGs freely. Just not obnoxiously.

Which is what Pseudo was doing. No other chatter there has had this issue, other than him. And he has done this repeatedly.

Quote from: James J Skach
Which is perfectly legitimate.  No different than Pundy saying GNS is no default at TheRPGSite.  Only difference is, as Spike points out, the channel is named RPG but is really just a keep-in-touch channel for a bunch of folks.


Again, incorrect.

In fact, not only do we discuss RPGs, but we also get together online RPGs there frequently.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: One Horse Town on July 26, 2007, 02:26:36 pm
Don't post here about RPGnet, people, in any incarnation, and i doubt we will see another post by Dan Davenport. Which would be a bit of a shame, admittedly. I'd like him to actually post about games when he comes here and not just jump into any 'RPGnet thread of the week'. In fact, we're getting a few of this type of poster now. Something crops up here that is unpleasant or they feel the need to defend, a poster pops up to defend it. Then it blows over and they're rarely seen again. Waste of breath starting a thread about somewhere else here in the first place and a waste of new posters when they drift off again.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: JamesV on July 26, 2007, 02:54:10 pm
Quote from: Dan Davenport
  • Go to an IRC server.
  • Register the chat room of your choice.
  • Chat.


Very simple. :)

Hell, you could create your own #rpgnet on a server other than magicstar if you wanted. It's not like RPGnet (the web site) has anything at all to do with the chatroom.


Oh, come on, cloning would be a bit tasteless IMO. I mean just because the site doesn't endorse the chat room doesn't mean that the users don't think of the two as related if not connected.

I'm trying hard not to be some kind of forum/chat warrior here, and I do understand the impulse to try and explain your decisions when some folks complain about them, but I do think your present attempt to do so is doing you little favors. Pseudo can feel as bothered as he wants to about it and if you and the other ops aren't gonna budge on his ban, then there's little else to say.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: jdrakeh on July 26, 2007, 03:13:34 pm
Quote from: Spike
Well, Deirdre's post strongly suggests that you have, in fact, banned someone quite recently in the person of Psuedoephedrine.  But don't let that get in the way of your knee jerk defenses.


I don't know if Overthecounterspeed was recently banned from #RPGnet but I spend quite a bit of time there (despite my banning from the website) and have never seen anybody banned from the channel without good cause. I suspect that there is more to this than Overthecounterspeed lets on. He's shown a willingness to omit certain details of the truth when it suits him to do so and I don't see much reason to doubt that this is an instance of such behavior.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Spike on July 26, 2007, 04:27:02 pm
Quote from: jdrakeh
I don't know if Overthecounterspeed was recently banned from #RPGnet but I spend quite a bit of time there (despite my banning from the website) and have never seen anybody banned from the channel without good cause. I suspect that there is more to this than Overthecounterspeed lets on. He's shown a willingness to omit certain details of the truth when it suits him to do so and I don't see much reason to doubt that this is an instance of such behavior.



Oh, sure. I'm just poking. They only come here to defend what, by some accounts is indefensible.  Well, in this zoo, you don't poke the animals, they poke you.

Just doin' my job, commie mutant traitor scum sir!
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Serious Paul on July 26, 2007, 04:29:08 pm
Spike for the win! (Now I just hope Jenny Arcane doesn't start a thread to get you banned!)
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: J Arcane on July 26, 2007, 04:43:38 pm
Quote
Yup, I've read the log now. Thank you for providing it, JA.

First of all, the fact that you're citing instances of 3-hour conversations regarding RPGs would seem to give lie to the idea that RPG discussion isn't allowed on the channel.

Secondly, the instances you're citing are discussions.


And if you'll read the logs, before he got booted, it was actually starting to turn into a conversation on the subject of D&D variants, that I was interested in pursuing, but was rather abruptly shut down because Cith had to get his paranoid vendetta in there.  One of the other chatters even expressed disappointment at his decision not to return as they too had been interested in pursuing the conversation that was developing.  

I'm not seeing this "pattern of behavior" that everyone seems to assure me is there.  I'm in that channel every day, for most of the day, and I've never had one damn problem with his posting there.  

The only "pattern" I've seen is that yes, Psuedo will often start off with a rather enthusiastic recounting of his latest sessions events, but in my experience it's pretty rare for that not to then dovetail into some more general discussion.  The night prior to his kicking, for instance, started with a discussion of his game, and ended with a discussion on the importance of family in human society and how that relates to game characters.  All of my previous conversations with him have taken similar routes, often with me involved as I enjoy conversing with the man, leading me to conclude that this is just the way the guy talks on IRC.

But no.  Instead Cith concludes it must be some sort of conspiracy, seemingly based entirely on his past presence on another channel and his association with JimBob.  And given past rants from Cith about such subjects as RPGnet being nothing but viral marketers and Exalted's popularity being a WW conspiracy, et al, I'm not certain I really trust his judgement on the issue.  

This whole thing sounds an awful lot more like one op moderating over a personal issue, and the rest of them sticking together in a fashion that actually rather resembles #rpgnet's sister forum a bit much to my tastes.  I suppose I should just start calling you all the "Opclique", maybe?
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Silverlion on July 26, 2007, 05:59:53 pm
Quote from: J Arcane
A  One of the other chatters even expressed disappointment at his decision not to return as they too had been interested in pursuing the conversation that was developing.  



Let me reiterate--there is #rpgchat, sure we don't have a bunch of lurkers who never talk. (Just one who lingers when he's AFK sometimes), and RPG talk is on topic all the time. So stop by. If you don't like the moderation there you can tell me off. Since I opped everyone whose an op and take responsibility for them.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Deirdre on July 26, 2007, 06:05:15 pm
Quote from: Serious Paul
I just think it's funny people have to register with this site to defend their actions-I mean they run a whole 'nother site right?


Not quite, no. The IRC channel #rpgnet is not officially affiliated with the site rpg.net. It was once upon a time before the site was bought by Skotos, but now it's just an independant place to chat. I'm not sure if you're unfamiliar with what IRC is or if you just didn't get from the context of the dicussion that this all happened in a real time chat channel. If you're unfamiliar with IRC, Wikipedia is totally there for you. As for the channel itself, gaming is a very common subject of discussion since the one thing the majority of members have in common is that they're all gamers or at least have an interest in the hobby. When I say that people have it on in the background, I mean that their IRC client is connected, but they may not be staring intently at the screen. Honestly, that's pretty much for the best since the channel would be extremely difficult to follow if everyone was trying to carry on multiple conversations at once. Some things, like very in depth breakdowns of game sessions are just better for message boards or blogs.

On the subject of bans and bannings, we honestly haven't banned anyone in quite a long time. We really do go out of our way to not have to ban anyone. Infractions are brought up for discussion between the ops, and a ban is always the last course of action. If there are any misgivings at all we tend to give the user the benefit of the doubt. We have a few simple rules that help to keep the channel from being overrun by the sorts of discussions that tend to become hostile, as we like to try to keep it a friendly place. Do we succeed? The satisfied users will say yes, and the dissatisfied will say no, so all we can look at is activity. The channel is active and doing well, so the other ops and I (I should also note that I am not the channel owner. That would be Dan and his word is final.) are pretty pleased. As to why Pseudo got it... he's really been on the edge of it for some time. Saying that it was entirely about one incident does make the entire thing seem heavy handed, but that's not the case.

Hope that's clearer. I kind if rushed that first post to get get to work this morning at the unholy hour of 5:00am.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Deirdre on July 26, 2007, 06:06:56 pm
Quote from: jdrakeh
I don't know if Overthecounterspeed was recently banned from #RPGnet but I spend quite a bit of time there (despite my banning from the website) and have never seen anybody banned from the channel without good cause. I suspect that there is more to this than Overthecounterspeed lets on. He's shown a willingness to omit certain details of the truth when it suits him to do so and I don't see much reason to doubt that this is an instance of such behavior.


Bingo, HB.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Spike on July 26, 2007, 06:15:58 pm
Yeah, but Deirdre:

The point of his comment was that you apparently registered here just to defend your actions, and Dan Davenport, for all he's a cool guy, never ever seems to post here unless he's defending either Rpg.net, or now apparently this IRC chat channel.

Don't get me wrong, I don't comment out of a love for Psuedo, nor do I entirely poke just for my own personal amusement (though I do not deny that I do get some amusement out of it...). I comment because we get essentially two new posters (one new poster and one other poster who hasn't been in for a few months) just because someone vented here about the treatment they got 'There'... wherever there is at the moment being relatively trivial.  Given the presumed cross polination between #rpgnet and Rpg.net, many, if not most of us here are rather inclined to assume the worst about moderation policies, regardless of actual, legal status.

You (and Dan) want to be taken seriously when you defend yourselves here? Don't just pop in here to defend yourselves.  (Insert long winded disertation about circling wagons, police and domestic abuse, and other examples of outsiders getting tarred and feathered...)
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Deirdre on July 26, 2007, 06:25:54 pm
Quote from: Spike
Yeah, but Deirdre:

The point of his comment was that you apparently registered here just to defend your actions


More out of annoyance at being named, as though I had something to do with Pseudo's problem with the channel. But okay, sure. I don't really feel the least bit bad about it. I'm here now and I can't be un-here.

You love it.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Spike on July 26, 2007, 06:45:00 pm
Quote from: Deirdre
More out of annoyance at being named, as though I had something to do with Pseudo's problem with the channel. But okay, sure. I don't really feel the least bit bad about it. I'm here now and I can't be un-here.

You love it.



Yeah, but I'm a sucker for attention. :D
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Kyle Aaron on July 26, 2007, 06:51:33 pm
Quote from: C.W.Richeson
I think he's assuming that #rpgnet = http://www.RPG.net [...] As I understand it, the places are only connected in name.  The goals, administration, and everything else are quite different.  Folk banned from RPG.net are not banned from the channel, and many have spent quite a bit of time there in the past.

Actually, the administration has overlap. Dan Davenport is the owner of #rpgnet, has been for years, and in the last year or two was made a moderator of rpg.net. However, I know of no instances where being banned in one place has led to a ban in the other, nor do I know of any instance where Dan did an unfair banning in either place.

The difficulty is, from what I've seen, not in their use of proscriptive (banning) powers, but in their use of prescriptive powers. rpg talk was given little or no encouragement, and frequent discouragement; talk of other stuff was strongly encouraged. There was a cliqueishness which caused a "circle the wagons" mentality at times, and caused them to view negatively harmless or neutral things.

For example, because religious, political, and foul-language talk wasn't allowed in #rpgnet, I created #tangency and ran it for a couple of years, as a sort of safety-valve. So when someone got heated, or pissed off with a mod, or strayed into the banned topics, I'd say, "you should take it to #tangency." Sometimes - but not always - this would get a negative response from the mods or regular channel members. "You're trying to steal our members for your dead chan!" That kind of response is just a cliqueish thing, it's natural and human, happens everywhere (never got that response from Dan, by the way). We get it here, for example - when therpgsite was down, people advertised their own forums and got a hostile response from some of the more cliqueishly-inclined therpgsite members.

So basically #rpgnet is just a cliquey little channel, which is only incidentally about rpgs. Some of the clique members are more hostile than others, some are more open and friendly. But in the end it's a clique, and not much about rpgs - not the last times I've visited it, anyway. Why else would they ban people who criticise them somewhere else, or register on a forum just to have a go at the guy? That's classic clique stuff.

But as Dan Davenport says, it's easy to start your own channel, even easier than starting a forum! The hard part is promoting it, keeping the membership up, and so on. That's why I ditched #therpgsite - it was effort I could be spending on something else, like planning for my game sessions. I was also a bit uncomfortable with the hostility between chans, with people going from one chan to the other to bitch. That's like therpgsite/rpg.net rivalries, I don't like it much - both places have value. It's just that #rpgnet's value does not like in talking about rpgs. It's basically Tangency Open rpg.net, but without the religion and politics and profanity. Well, last I saw either of those, anyway.

Just start your own chan, easy to do.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: jdrakeh on July 26, 2007, 08:05:51 pm
Quote from: Spike
Just doin' my job, commie mutant traitor scum sir!



Well, better to betray the theocracy than be party to it, I say :D
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Tyberious Funk on July 26, 2007, 09:27:42 pm
Sounds like #rpgnet is as fucked up as www.rpg.net (http://www.rpg.net)
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: jeff37923 on July 27, 2007, 12:19:03 am
Quote from: Serious Paul
I mean it'd be like me getting all worked up because one of you cats called me a name or something? So what?



I bet you'd be all worked up if you got singled out by Oscar the Kitty-Cat of Death! :D
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on July 27, 2007, 03:54:58 am
Quote from: C.W.Richeson
Sorry to hear it, Pseudo.  :(

I enjoyed discussing Eberron with you in the channel back when.  Perhaps you could start your own channel and actively market it?


I think I'm going to go hang around in #rpgchat, since #therpgsite is dead.
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on July 27, 2007, 04:24:02 am
For the record, I don't know what the fuck they're talking about with this conspiracy-to-undermine-#rpgnet business. This thread wasn't part of some concerted campaign or whatever the heck - I was genuinely pissed and amazed that I got kicked in the middle of what seemed like a perfectly legit conversation about Iron Heroes, Unearthed Arcana and D&D 3.x for "spamming". Kyle and I don't get together in #troublemakers to exchange progress reports about how much e-suffering we've managed to cause this week.

Similarly with this "edge of a ban" business - I hadn't been to #rpgnet in a month or two prior to my last few visits. That's totally out of the fucking blue. Nor can I think of anything else disruptive I've done. I certainly type a lot, I'll admit, but IRC chats aren't like conversations - you don't have to speak over anyone, or worry about "interrupting" them. I do it to start up conversation, and I respond to others when they ask questions and make comments. The ban itself I don't care much about, because I figured things would head that way eventually.

As for RPG discussion, #rpgnet doesn't seem to have a lot of it when I'm there that isn't started by me. And if there is any, it's almost always J_Arcane doing his bit to start some up. Attempts to engage other posters have almost always been unsuccessful, as they shift topics to what food they're eating, how sad they are, or... well, what food they're eating or how sad they are.

Jdrakeh> What on earth are you talking about? "Knowingly omitted information"?
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Serious Paul on July 27, 2007, 10:32:41 am
Quote from: jeff37923
I bet you'd be all worked up if you got singled out by Oscar the Kitty-Cat of Death! :D


Well that's different, you know? ;)
Title: #rpgnet just kicked me for talking too much about RPGs
Post by: Seanchai on July 28, 2007, 02:12:21 pm
Quote from: Spike
You (and Dan) want to be taken seriously when you defend yourselves here? Don't just pop in here to defend yourselves.


Or post bans for here for other locations based on behavior at other locations.

Seanchai