Tip Your Waitstaff (http://forums.knoxgamers.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19110)
Just a rant about gamer behavior in public I witnessed.
When I play at Denny's (which hasn't been for a long while now. But I digress) I make it a point to tip above 20%. Part of the reason I like playing in restaurants is that me and my players like to eat while we play, so it saves us on food runs. We also don't play for much more than 3 hours.
Those pieces of shit you wrote about are some of the biggest douche-bags I've ever heard of. The restaurant should kick them out after an hour. Right to refuse service and all.
"The average waitstaff employee makes $2.13 an hour, the rest of the money they make is based on tips."
Poor Americans. Here Down Under for people over 18 it's about A$18/hr - that's US$13.50/hr on today's conversion. The main issue affecting their wages is how many hours they work, typically it might only be a dozen a week. Nonetheless, tipping is rare.
I've only once regularly gamed in a restaurant, and there we always ordered dinner and drinks. There was a guy who just had water but we kicked him out because he was generally stingy - not poor, just tight-arsed. He was even tight-arsed in character, he was a real pain. "You are the weakest link. Goodbye."
If people are so ticked off about tipping, maybe they should do some agitation to get waiters some semblance of a living wage.
The restaurant business in the US profits from plain old worker abuse. Owners will usually rationalize their abusive wages by whingeing about rent prices or competition or taxes, placing the burden on their workers to somehow recoup a living wage from their customers. That's where all the servile guilt-tripping 'tip your waitstaff' comes in. If you REALLY want service workers to earn a living wage then picket the fucking place. Agitate for a labor union. Write a letter to the newspaper and let everyone know why you refuse to dine there. Bitching about ungrateful customers won't change anything. The customer is always right, remember? You have to hurt the owner in his pocketbook. Just ponying up 10, 15, 20, 25%, or even worse allowing the restaurant to automatically deduct gratuity, is being complicit in their abuse.
Quote from: droog;259606If people are so ticked off about tipping, maybe they should do some agitation to get waiters some semblance of a living wage.
We have been trying, brother. But some how I doubt
even minimum wage will ever be a reality in my country.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IG18Ae01.html
Regards,
David R
Moved to OT
It's worth mentioning that in Jeff's story, one waitress said,
"they just sit at those tables and only order water or something else to drink and then don't bother to tip."
No business can sustain itself if space is taken up by people who buy little or nothing. A restaurant isn't really a public space like a library or a park, legally and morally it's a private space, and you as a customer pay rent on that space indirectly, by buying food and drink, and perhaps by tipping the staff.
So this is not really an issue of tipping the staff, but of a bunch of clueless nerds using a private space and not being willing to pay for it. If they bought lots of food and drink but didn't tip, then the owner could pass on the profits in wages to their waitstaff; if they bought very little but tipped big, the waitstaff could get it directly. But when they neither buy stuff nor tip, they're using a private space for free, and both owner and waitstaff lose out.
This is like sneaking into the cinemas or sports stadium to watch without paying for it. Good for you, bad for them - whatever rate their staff are paid. You don't get to hang out at the clothes shop or the record shop all day without buying anything.
If you're not willing to pay to use a private space, then use a public space, or else use your own private space. But don't rip people off.
My mistake OHT. This thread is supposed to be about stingy gamer types. Sorry jeff37923.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;259619My mistake OHT. This thread is supposed to be about stingy gamer types. Sorry jeff37923.
Regards,
David R
No worries. I'm sure pundit will move it back if he thinks it's a wrong call.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259605Poor Americans. Here Down Under for people over 18 it's about A$18/hr - that's US$13.50/hr on today's conversion. The main issue affecting their wages is how many hours they work, typically it might only be a dozen a week. Nonetheless, tipping is rare.
Poor people Down Under, then. Though I know there are a lot of American waitresses who either aren't very good or work a place where they don't get tipped well, a waitress picking the right restaurant and doing her job well will make that kind of money
in a night. I've dated my fair share of waitresses - okay, and your share and his and his, too - and not one of them made less than US$200 a week; most brought that home every Saturday in six hours.
Quote from: Engine;259627Poor people Down Under, then. Though I know there are a lot of American waitresses who either aren't very good or work a place where they don't get tipped well, a waitress picking the right restaurant and doing her job well will make that kind of money in a night. I've dated my fair share of waitresses - okay, and your share and his and his, too - and not one of them made less than US$200 a week; most brought that home every Saturday in six hours.
This. I don't think most are considering what kind of income can be earned through tips. If a waitress can manage six seatings an hour and on average each one's bill is $20 total, if they pull the standard 15% tip that is $18 on top of their normal wage. Factor in the habit that folks have of under-reporting their tips, to avoid taxes, and they have a nice hourly wage when added to their meager hourly rate.
Unless they're unlucky enough to work in a place where tight-arsed gamers come and sit for hours.
It's the old problem again. Anyone can do well, but not everyone can do well. That's an important distinction. If someone works in the flash hotel with the $200 tip on one meal, then someone else has to work in the Denny's with the fat-arsed nerds who sit there for hours and just get water. But both are doing an honest day's work.
If it's so fair and reasonable, why do we only do it with waitstaff? We could easily extend it to other workers. IT support, for example, could get $5 an hour, and then make the rest up in tips from satisfied customers. Doctors could get $10 an hour and make the rest up in tips from patients made better, or from families who are grateful the doctor at least tried. Coal miners could be paid $1 an hour and make the rest up in bonuses for productivity. Teachers could get $4 an hour and then more in tips from parents grateful that little Johnny can now read.
If low wages + tips for good or productive work is such a good way of doing things, why aren't other kinds of workers asking for their industry to change to match it?
This reminds me of that thread we had where all these people were saying that teaching was an easy, well-paid job - yet strangely they weren't keen on doing it themselves. Funny that.
Everyone deserves a decent wage for an honest day's work - whatever that work is. Waitstaff have a shitty job. Chefs like me just have to cook the food, we don't have to smile while doing it, and don't have to deal with customers being stingy, picky, ignorant about food, groping us, or anything like that.
I don't like to eat in restaurants any more--particularly expensive ones. I don't like that whole dynamic where the waiter fawns on you and you know they want a tip. I'll just pay my bill and if the waiters want extra they can take it up with management.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259648Unless they're unlucky enough to work in a place where tight-arsed gamers come and sit for hours.
It's the old problem again. Anyone can do well, but not everyone can do well. That's an important distinction. If someone works in the flash hotel with the $200 tip on one meal, then someone else has to work in the Denny's with the fat-arsed nerds who sit there for hours and just get water. But both are doing an honest day's work.
If it's so fair and reasonable, why do we only do it with waitstaff? We could easily extend it to other workers. IT support, for example, could get $5 an hour, and then make the rest up in tips from satisfied customers. Doctors could get $10 an hour and make the rest up in tips from patients made better, or from families who are grateful the doctor at least tried. Coal miners could be paid $1 an hour and make the rest up in bonuses for productivity. Teachers could get $4 an hour and then more in tips from parents grateful that little Johnny can now read.
If low wages + tips for good or productive work is such a good way of doing things, why aren't other kinds of workers asking for their industry to change to match it?
This reminds me of that thread we had where all these people were saying that teaching was an easy, well-paid job - yet strangely they weren't keen on doing it themselves. Funny that.
Everyone deserves a decent wage for an honest day's work - whatever that work is. Waitstaff have a shitty job. Chefs like me just have to cook the food, we don't have to smile while doing it, and don't have to deal with customers being stingy, picky, ignorant about food, groping us, or anything like that.
Odd that you're not lamenting about the cheapness of the gamers in this single example instead of proposing grand social changes....
I wonder what the waiters and waitresses would say if asked, would they prefer the tip method or simple hourly wage.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259648Unless they're unlucky enough to work in a place where tight-arsed gamers come and sit for hours.
Where you work isn't a function of fortune, it's a choice. Sometimes it's a limited choice, I agree, but it's also not a constant: if you can only work in one place, you work there until you can work elsewhere. It's a mindset you have to maintain, particularly waitressing, where the landscape of how many hours you get and who gets what sections on what days can change quickly and drastically.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259648It's the old problem again. Anyone can do well, but not everyone can do well.
The trick, then, is to make sure
you can do well. Don't be a Denny's waitress. [I don't recommend waitressing anywhere they don't serve alcohol, which drives prices, and thus tips, up.] If you have to - to get the experience, to save up money for transportation, whatever - do it as little as you can.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259648If it's so fair and reasonable, why do we only do it with waitstaff?
It's not really fair
or reasonable. I think tipping is a stupid way to make money. However, in a fixed-wage situation, everyone does okay, but in a low-fixed-wage-plus-tips situation, you get to have a greater degree of control of whether you do terribly or very well, which the waitresses I have known have preferred. There are restaurants without gratuities; I have never known anyone who chose to work there: they would rather gamble that they're exceptional waitresses than just take the dole. And - and this is my point - it's worked out very well for all of them that I know. Oh, sure, there are rough weeks, where I'll bet they'd have been happy to take home a constant, predictable wage [the complaint I hear most often is the inherent unpredictability of the wage], but overall, a good waitress at a good restaurant makes more than the constant-wage waitress in your example.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259648Everyone deserves a decent wage for an honest day's work - whatever that work is.
Your idea of what people deserve and mine are very different, of course.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259648Everyone deserves a decent wage for an honest day's work - whatever that work is.
You do realize that arguing for an hourly wage does not satisfy this statement. If this was your intent you'd be arguing for some kind of performance based system. One's hourly rate, for a day's work, doesn't adjust based on how hard one is working or not working. An hourly rate just ensures that one gets the same daily wage regardless of the work done as long as the hours were the same.
Quote from: KrakaJak;259567When I play at Denny's (which hasn't been for a long while now. But I digress) I make it a point to tip above 20%. Part of the reason I like playing in restaurants is that me and my players like to eat while we play, so it saves us on food runs. We also don't play for much more than 3 hours.
I'm impressed that they let you play there-maybe it's just where I live but around here they'd toss a game group out on their ass. Most restaurants in my area, in my opinion, would kick you to the curb as fast they thought they could get away with. (I could, of course be absolutely mistaken, and what happens here in no way invalidates what happens where ever you are!
Quote from: CavScout;259659Odd that you’re not lamenting about the cheapness of the gamers in this single example instead of proposing grand social changes….
This sentence makes no sense. Are you saying that I am not complaining about cheaparsed gamers? or not complaining about society as a whole? I can't make sense of exactly how you're trying to insult, please be more clear next time.
- Gamers should not be tightarses. If you're poor, offer to host the game at your house and cook dinner, this is the cheapest way to do a game session.
- Wage conditions in Australia for legally-employed waitstaff are decent enough. Wage conditions for illegally-employed (illegal foreign workers and those paid "under the table" to avoid tax) are shitty. Conditions in your country are your business to fix, not mine.
Clear enough?
Quote from: CavScoutI wonder what the waiters and waitresses would say if asked, would they prefer the tip method or simple hourly wage.
You should ask them. Apparently no employer has.
Here in Australia, when asked the vast majority prefer a decent hourly wage with little tipping over a poor hourly wage plus tips. That is, they choose secure average returns over uncertain high returns.
This is much like a friend I have who works in IT: he works for a large company with a (for his qualifications) rather ordinary salary, he could go work for a startup for twice or even three times as much, but most of them shut down within 18 months. With a large mortgage and one child, and a second on the way, he prefers a secure if average return to an uncertain but high return.
Or we could look at financial investments, where you could have 5% in a bank guaranteed, or the share market where it could be 100% or -75%, who knows. Most people choose the former, that's where the bulk of individual deposits are.
Again, things may be different in your country, but that is the preference of the vast majority of Australian waitstaff.
Oh, and every place I've ever worked in would have kicked the stingy fatarses out very quickly.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259765This sentence makes no sense.
Yeah, I think there are some words missing. Or wrong words in place of right words. Or something. I'm not sure what he means.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259765Conditions in your country are your business to fix, not mine.
If, of course, we judge they need fixing. If it's for us to fix, it's also for us to decide.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;259765You should ask them. Apparently no employer has.
Your assumption being that if someone did ask, they'd choose something else, so therefore no one has asked. This assumption is contradicted by my experience. Perhaps there is a national cultural difference at work.
Quote from: KrakaJak;259567The restaurant should kick them out after an hour. Right to refuse service and all.
By the way, Denny's here refuses to serve customers who only order drinks, for precisely this reason.
I think tipping is absolutely a requirement for dining in a restaurant. How much of a tip depends on the service, but, personally, I like to tip just a bit too much.
But seems like everyone has a tip jar out these days. You scooped me some ice cream, so now I'm supposed to tip you? Bah.
Seanchai
Quote from: Seanchai;259816But seems like everyone has a tip jar out these days. You scooped me some ice cream, so now I'm supposed to tip you? Bah.
Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's fine when the workers don't pay much attention, but when they give you dirty looks for not tipping, I want to write on a piece of paper, "Here is my tip: if you don't like the amount you're making, either get a different job or speak with your legislators about the minimum wage. Don't get pissed because I don't think cooking my pizza is worth more than the money you're already getting."
If parents would only tip me for teaching their kids I'd be more than willing to pass a percentage of that along to the people bringing me my coffee.
Wow, I'd never even considered the option of playing in a restaurant but I think if I did I'd expect us all to compensate the waiter/waitress more than fairly.
On a related note, what are thoughts on tipping for carryout orders? Do you, should you? I know they don't bring me refills on my drink but in many cases a member of the waitstaff has to assemble my order and that takes time out of their regular rounds.
QuoteIf parents would only tip me for teaching their kids I'd be more than willing to pass a percentage of that along to the people bringing me my coffee.
I know teachers are often terribly underpayed but why take your frustration out on people making below minimum wage? Shouldn't there be some level of empathy there where you understand what it's like to be underpayed and you make sure not to be part of the problem?
Quote from: Vulgarian;259863If parents would only tip me for teaching their kids I'd be more than willing to pass a percentage of that along to the people bringing me my coffee.
Yes because tipping teachers is exactly like the customary, and expected, tips that waitresses or waiters receive.
Oh, really? It's not... my bad. :rolleyes:
Well, the crux of my gripe is that these gamers are taking up space at restarant tables being mooching deadbeats and thus preventing those tables being occupied by actual paying customers and not even bothing to tip the waitstaff that is being hurt by their habit. The fact that they are gamers creating a poor public perception of us by this behavior is the end result of their habits.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;259950Shouldn't there be some level of empathy there where you understand what it's like to be underpayed and you make sure not to be part of the problem?
If you're complying with the system you
are part of the problem.
Fuck 'em, I say. Let 'em get some class struggle happening on their own account.
Quote from: droog;260041If you're complying with the system you are part of the problem.
Fuck 'em, I say. Let 'em get some class struggle happening on their own account.
If throwing the waitress a 5 spot for good service is "complying with the system" then I guess I'll just have to live with myself.
Quote from: jeff37923;260011The fact that they are gamers creating a poor public perception of us by this behavior is the end result of their habits.
Agreed. Which is why, as I said, when there was a gamer like this in a group I was in, we kicked him out.
QuoteIf parents would only tip me for teaching their kids I'd be more than willing to pass a percentage of that along to the people bringing me my coffee.
Then come to Asia. I've had to turn down gifts and tips many times from parents and students. Usually they just want to be nice with no strings attached - but what do you do when someone offers a $200 gift certificate for Teacher's Day? If I was Vietnamese, I'd be taking that money to the bank. As an American it just seems unethical. Sometimes, I really wish I was Vietnamese.
Cafes here in Saigon encourage people to come and spend the whole day there. If I was to play an rpg with the locals that'd probably be where we played. Obviously the economy is different than the US - here the restaurants, bars and cafes make a higher profit from drinks than food and prefer customers who stick around for more than one drink. Plus, we don't ever NEED to tip anyone here - well, except for doctors, police & judges. ;)
Quote from: Idinsinuation;259950I know teachers are often terribly underpayed but why take your frustration out on people making below minimum wage? Shouldn't there be some level of empathy there where you understand what it's like to be underpayed and you make sure not to be part of the problem?
You seem to be making an assumption here-I read this as "If I had more money, I'd spend more money"-not I don't tip.
Quote from: Kellri;260067Then come to Asia. I've had to turn down gifts and tips many times from parents and students. Usually they just want to be nice with no strings attached - but what do you do when someone offers a $200 gift certificate for Teacher's Day? If I was Vietnamese, I'd be taking that money to the bank. As an American it just seems unethical. Sometimes, I really wish I was Vietnamese.
When in Rome?
Quote from: Kellri;260067Then come to Asia. I've had to turn down gifts and tips many times from parents and students. Usually they just want to be nice with no strings attached - but what do you do when someone offers a $200 gift certificate for Teacher's Day? If I was Vietnamese, I'd be taking that money to the bank. As an American it just seems unethical. Sometimes, I really wish I was Vietnamese.
Cafes here in Saigon encourage people to come and spend the whole day there. If I was to play an rpg with the locals that'd probably be where we played. Obviously the economy is different than the US - here the restaurants, bars and cafes make a higher profit from drinks than food and prefer customers who stick around for more than one drink. Plus, we don't ever NEED to tip anyone here - well, except for doctors, police & judges. ;)
Oh, I've been thinking about it. International School teaching is definitely appealing.
Quote from: CavScout;259952Yes because tipping teachers is exactly like the customary, and expected, tips that waitresses or waiters receive.
Oh, really? It's not... my bad. :rolleyes:
No, but surely it should be. Go on...be a pioneer. Send me a cheque in the mail today.
Quote from: Vulgarian;260203No, but surely it should be. Go on...be a pioneer. Send me a cheque in the mail today.
I suppose if your salary was reduced to take this into account we could discuss it.
Quote from: CavScout;260208I suppose if your salary was reduced to take this into account we could discuss it.
Aaaah but it already is. Just look at how much I get paid compared to other professionals with similar levels of qualification.
It's obvious that I should be getting tips. It's just all those damned stingy parents who are holding back.
Quote from: Idinsinuation;259950On a related note, what are thoughts on tipping for carryout orders? Do you, should you?
Did the person you're tipping provide you with any service other than handing you your food? If not, then no. That's what you're tipping folks for - being attentive, taking care of your requests, being timely with their service, etc..
Seanchai
I ran the notion of tipping teachers past the Grade 4s today. They weren't very receptive, even when I pointed out that they might get better teaching if they tipped me.
Like Mr. Pink in RESERVOIR DOGS, "I don't believe in tipping."
I do tip, but you can cut-and-paste his rant on the topic from the movie to sum up how I feel about it.
My version of tipping is usually called "keep the change."
The tip on a $7.50 bill? Whatever's left of a ten.
The tip on a $17.50 pizza delivery? Whatever's left of a twenty.
Keep the change.
Now, these aren't absolutes. I don't use "keep the change" as a guideline if the change works out to less than a dollar- I wouldn't leave them with nothing. In those cases I'd bump it up, $5 on whatever is okay, $10 is generous, $20 I'd have to be drunk and in a very generous mood.
I do not agree with the standard tipping theory that what you give the waiter should be based on what you ordered. If I order the lobster instead of the ham sandwich, it doesn't magically make the plates heavier, or his job more dangerous, he's not jumping over crocodiles and ducking poison darts to get to my table...he just brought my food over. When it comes down to that, the chef could stick his head out the door of the kitchen and yell, "number 23, you're up!" and I could go get my own damn food and save ten bucks if they'd let me.
I was out with Phindar and he left a ten dollar tip on a fairly trivial bill. I said, "Ten dollars? She just brought our food over, she didn't pull us out of a burning building!!"
But Phindar works for tips, so he's biased.
That's my thinking, though. In practice, I tip as much as I can.
We went out with Paco, one of our players. As we're leaving, Paco signs the bill. Outside the restaurant, he joyfully told us that he left her no tip, and instead signed the bill, "should've given me your phone number when I asked."
We went back in, apologized for him, and gave her a more than decent tip.
We didn't beat Paco to a pulp, but it was a very close vote.
I tip as much as I can, because I know people like Paco don't.
And I overtip breakfast waitresses, because they're serving people at the start of their day, and if your waitress is happy and gives you big smiles, then people tend to reciprocate, and that's a nice zen "pay it forward" style practice.
So I do tip.
I just don't think I should have to. I think waitstaff should unionize and demand a freaking living wage and it's between them and their employer and leave the innocent customer out of it. We didn't do anything wrong, why are we the ones getting ripped off?
But, like in RESERVOIR DOGS, I also figured out the answer. I pay for dinner. Let the other goofballs work out what the tip should be.