Like most people, I am cursed with a relative who insists on sending me 8 million forwarded messages every week (in my case, my mother).  The latest piece of flotsam to show up was called "Will History Repeat Itself" and essentially talked about how McCain was so much better than Obama because McCain is like Reagan and Obama is like McGovern and Carter, and those crazy young people who like Obama need to defer to the wise old sages (yes, it really called them sages) who know their history.

Here's the retort I sent:

QuoteThe only history I see being repeated with America is the fall of the Roman Empire.  We cannot afford to continue with the foolish belief that America is still the sole superpower in the world and can continue to act the way it has been.

Our military is in danger of collapsing under its own weight from fighting pointless wars and spending billions on new war machines that we don't need, our international relations are terrible, our infrastructure is crumbling, our economy is being overtaken by stronger competition in the global market from Europe and Asia, our education system is a joke, our healthcare system is worse than many third world countries, and if we do not solve the environmental crisis, we are looking at a global catastrophe within 10 years.  As for security, our continued presence in the Middle East will only increase, not decrease, the dangers of terrorism to the US.

And most of these problems were caused by or exacerbated by George W. Bush, the worst president this nation has ever seen.  Old man McCain (or I like to call him, Grandpa Munster) essentially is a third term of the same failed Bush policies.  He's an old, tired man with old, tired ideas.  Anyone who wants that certainly isn't learning from recent history.

We can no longer afford to ignore our domestic problems any longer, they are killing our economy and our ability to compete in the global marketplace.  We can no longer afford to waste resources on pointless wars that accomplish nothing except weaken our own defenses and embolden our enemies.  We can no longer afford to waste time on the culture wars here at home on things like gay marraige, which will be considered normal by the majority of people in the very near future.  We can no longer afford to believe we can unilaterally throw our weight around with the rest of the world - the European Union, China, and India are becoming increasingly powerful forces in the world as America's strength is diminishing.

We need a president who realizes the world is changing, and America's place in it is changing.  No matter who is elected president, America's place as the "leader of the free world" is ending.  It's time we fixed our economy, scale back our military, realize we are only one of many important nations in the world, make our education and healthcare systems comparable to the rest of the world, and preserve our environment.

I don't see any old sages.  All I see are a bunch of old men scared of the future.  The world is changing.  It's time we accept it before we completely collapse.

Let me guess, we need more government in our lives to "fix" all those problems, right? And we should just give up and accept the Socialistic world-view of the rest of the world - why fight it, its so much easier to just relax and give in. Things will be MUCH better, you'll see... I mean come on, how much worse could it possibly be?

:teehee:

One may agree or disagree with what you have written but I found it interesting and passionate.

I will let you know, however, that things aren't a bed of roses in Europe either.

The whole "EC, China and India" are growing/becoming more powerful/etc hides more than meets the eye and does not mean life is getting any more cheerful for the common person there.

If fact, speaking for UK alone (and maybe for France if a few friends and collegues I have had where reliable), there are millions here who agree with your text if the details where revised, the regional notes changed and the names of the culprits altered to say that things are bad here and we needto be more like someone else.
So perhaps pointing at EC and saying that is the path USA needs to follow is not a very good idea. Like the pot an ketle thing...

Quote from: Werekoala;224284Let me guess, we need more government in our lives to "fix" all those problems, right?

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is.  I do know that we can't afford 4 more years of "stay the course" mentality.  I look at it this way - with Obama, he is very much imperfect and could very well fail or even make things worse.  With McCain, he's guaranteed to fail.  I'd rather try something different and possibly (even likely) fail than not try anything and be certain of failure.

Quote from: Edsan;224296One may agree or disagree with what you have written but I found it interesting and passionate.

Thanks

Quote from: Edsan;224296I will let you know, however, that things aren't a bed of roses in Europe either.

The whole "EC, China and India" are growing/becoming more powerful/etc hides more than meets the eye and does not mean life is getting any more cheerful for the common person there.

If fact, speaking for UK alone (and maybe for France if a few friends and collegues I have had where reliable), there are millions here who agree with your text if the details where revised, the regional notes changed and the names of the culprits altered to say that things are bad here and we needto be more like someone else.
So perhaps pointing at EC and saying that is the path USA needs to follow is not a very good idea. Like the pot an ketle thing...

All I intended to say with regard to EC/China/India is that there are other countries who are gaining economic power in the world and we can't sit around and pretend they aren't anymore.  We're not the big fish in the pond anymore, the other fish are getting bigger and we're getting old and sluggish.

I don't think the US should or even could act like other countries in total.  I do think we need to take a look at the trends, though, and see that we do need to improve things.  Things like universal healthcare, good educational systems, and better environmental consciousness, for example, are general areas for improvement that we can identify by looking at the rest of the world.  The specifics, obviously, would need to be something that can work within the American culture.  

Getting the specifics is hard work and there are no easy answers.  But the problem is people pull this whole "willful blindness" thing where they like to pretend there are no problems in the country that school prayer and a bigger military won't fix*.

I think a lot of our problems right now stem from the culture wars, and the whole "America is the best country in the world" nationalism attitude that our leaders keep encouraging.  People get so wrapped up in national pride and believing we are the great savior of the free world that they fail to realize we are just one of many important countries in the world and have many things we could learn from others.  We need to learn a little humility, or our pride will be our downfall.

* I'm picking on conservatives a bit here because they have been in power the last 8 years and the whole "there's no problem with the environment or economy and we're winning the war on terror" pack of lies has me really annoyed these days.  But liberals are just as bad - all too often they fold under pressure or come up with the most unrealistic solutions to problems (*cough*Kuchinich*cough*Gravel*cough*).  We need common sense solutions that work in the real world.

Quote from: jgants;224332Honestly, I don't know what the answer is.  I do know that we can't afford 4 more years of "stay the course" mentality.  I look at it this way - with Obama, he is very much imperfect and could very well fail or even make things worse.  With McCain, he's guaranteed to fail.  I'd rather try something different and possibly (even likely) fail than not try anything and be certain of failure.

You have the chutzpah to say that after titling the thread "Learning from History"?  Take a better look at the history of how that attitude turns out in practice.

Quote from: John Morrow;224355You have the chutzpah to say that after titling the thread "Learning from History"?  Take a better look at the history of how that attitude turns out in practice.

You're locked in a room with a ticking bomb that will go off any minute.  Your options are: A) Try to disarm the bomb, possibly causing it to go off earlier than it would have, or B) Sit around and wait for the bomb to go off, giving you a few more minutes of life.

I'm going with option A.  Every time.  

I suppose option B could be interpreted as "sit around and wait for Jesus to magically appear and save you", but I'd still take A every time.

I don't believe we have any more time left to wait.  I believe we are on the precipice of disaster now, and at best we have 10 more years before things get really bad.  I don't think wasting 4 of those years on someone who just wants to hold the fort is a good idea.  Feel free to disagree.

Quote from: jgants;224373You're locked in a room with a ticking bomb that will go off any minute.  Your options are: A) Try to disarm the bomb, possibly causing it to go off earlier than it would have, or B) Sit around and wait for the bomb to go off, giving you a few more minutes of life.

I'm going with option A.  Every time.  

I suppose option B could be interpreted as "sit around and wait for Jesus to magically appear and save you", but I'd still take A every time.

I don't believe we have any more time left to wait.  I believe we are on the precipice of disaster now, and at best we have 10 more years before things get really bad.  I don't think wasting 4 of those years on someone who just wants to hold the fort is a good idea.  Feel free to disagree.

First of all, why do folks on your side, jg, always try to resort to some side swiping snipe about Jesus magically saving? Has it ever occurred to you that someone, even if they are Christian, differs from your world views for reasons that have nothing to do with their religious belief? And then you have to consider all those that don't even hold those religious views who also disagree with you...

Now if you didn't mean it as a little jab at the religious beliefs of those on the other side of the aisle from you - by all means take me to task and I'll apologize.

As for the rest - you first have the unenviable task of proving, at least to me, that the world is going to end in ten years. Then you have to prove, to me at least, that it requires being stopped. Then you have to prove, to me at least, that government, that is I, have to stop it as opposed to everyone simply figuring out how to live in the new world. Like we do every morning we get up.

Your passion is great; it's also seems a bit like chicken little. Despite the recent animated efforts to the contrary, however, the sky is not falling.

Quote from: James J Skach;224411First of all, why do folks on your side, jg, always try to resort to some side swiping snipe about Jesus magically saving? Has it ever occurred to you that someone, even if they are Christian, differs from your world views for reasons that have nothing to do with their religious belief? And then you have to consider all those that don't even hold those religious views who also disagree with you...

Now if you didn't mean it as a little jab at the religious beliefs of those on the other side of the aisle from you - by all means take me to task and I'll apologize.

I didn't say religion was the only reason for the action, just that it could be one.  And I do think too many people rely on the "God will save us" line of thinking about the future.  If you want it said better, think of the speech Gene Hackman's minister character gives in the Poseidon Adventure.  That's what I'm saying.

Quote from: James J Skach;224411As for the rest - you first have the unenviable task of proving, at least to me, that the world is going to end in ten years. Then you have to prove, to me at least, that it requires being stopped. Then you have to prove, to me at least, that government, that is I, have to stop it as opposed to everyone simply figuring out how to live in the new world. Like we do every morning we get up.

Your passion is great; it's also seems a bit like chicken little. Despite the recent animated efforts to the contrary, however, the sky is not falling.

I'm not breaking out the John 3:16 sign or whatever.  I just said things will get really bad for us if we don't start fixing them now.

I'm no leader, so I doubt I can convince anyone (if I was gifted with that kind of charisma, I'd spend my time starting one of those cults so I could have all the chicks as my various wives instead of rambling on about politics on a gaming forum).  But here's the evidence I think suggests we are in a real problem state:

* Engineer reports talking about our bridges, dams, roads, levees, and power infrastructure systems say they are getting very near the breaking point, will cost billions to repair/replace (which will take years), and we haven't even started.
* Our military capabilities are nearly exhausted.  We don't have the troops to maintain the levels they want in Iraq now.  Afghanistan is a disaster zone we've been ignoring.  And we are heading towards possible military issues with Iran, if Israel doesn't attack them first.
* We are spending billions developing things like the F-22 so we can take on the massive air forces of....
* We have one of the worst healthcare systems in the developed world.  We rank below Costa Rica and just slightly above Cuba (who would rank above us if not for our pointless embargo).
* Nearly every reputable scientist in the world is screaming about the dangers of the environment and impending catastrophe, while Dick Cheney twirls his mustache and plots to silence them.
* Billions of dollars in damages to the US economy from increasing floods and storms (likely the result of global warming).
* The housing market continues to deteriorate, and financial experts predict a very long and difficult time ahead.
* The dollar continues to plummet in value in the international market.
* The price of oil continues to skyrocket.  And the US is very, very dependent on oil.
* An education system that continues to decrease in quality, with increasing cutbacks due to state and local budget shortfalls.
* Decreasing of manufacturing, increasing in outsourcing and trade deficits.
* A ballooning national debt, with increasing debts to foreign lenders.
* High levels of joblessness.

If anyone can look at all that and still think we're doing just fine and should stay the course - well, I don't know what else to say.  That person sees a completely different world than the one I see.

Quote from: jgants;224332Honestly, I don't know what the answer is.  I do know that we can't afford 4 more years of "stay the course" mentality.  I look at it this way - with Obama, he is very much imperfect and could very well fail or even make things worse.  With McCain, he's guaranteed to fail.  I'd rather try something different and possibly (even likely) fail than not try anything and be certain of failure.

I WANT the government to fail, in many areas - the more spectacularly, the better. I don't want someone to get into office who wants not only to make what we have "work", but to add to it massively. I don't want the blind, moronic child-beast of the Federal Government to "regulate" (take over) more than it already has because it can't handle what it already has on its plate. Government is too big, too slow, and too stupid to do 90% of the things it tries to do, but there's no way to stop it until the public realizes it. We need catastrophic failures of things like Social Security and the Department of Education if we're ever going to replace them with other things that might work - or just eliminate them entirely. Patching the tires until they're more patch than tire is not an answer.

Well, yes, I guess sometimes you have to destroy or wait for the old to completely decay before building a better new.

The glitch is, living through the process is usually no very pleasant. I believe the Chinese refer to it as "Interesting Times", as in the curse.

I checked your blog and liked it, Werekoala. It's been added to my bookmarked links.

Quote from: jgants;224427I didn't say religion was the only reason for the action, just that it could be one.  And I do think too many people rely on the "God will save us" line of thinking about the future.  If you want it said better, think of the speech Gene Hackman's minister character gives in the Poseidon Adventure.  That's what I'm saying.

I do not recall the movie; I mean, I remember it, just not to the specifics. Regardless, it's an attack you don't need to make - makes you too pundit-like!

Quote from: jgants;224427I'm not breaking out the John 3:16 sign or whatever.  I just said things will get really bad for us if we don't start fixing them now.

I'm no leader, so I doubt I can convince anyone (if I was gifted with that kind of charisma, I'd spend my time starting one of those cults so I could have all the chicks as my various wives instead of rambling on about politics on a gaming forum).  But here's the evidence I think suggests we are in a real problem state:

* Engineer reports talking about our bridges, dams, roads, levees, and power infrastructure systems say they are getting very near the breaking point, will cost billions to repair/replace (which will take years), and we haven't even started.
* Our military capabilities are nearly exhausted.  We don't have the troops to maintain the levels they want in Iraq now.  Afghanistan is a disaster zone we've been ignoring.  And we are heading towards possible military issues with Iran, if Israel doesn't attack them first.
* We are spending billions developing things like the F-22 so we can take on the massive air forces of....
* We have one of the worst healthcare systems in the developed world.  We rank below Costa Rica and just slightly above Cuba (who would rank above us if not for our pointless embargo).
* Nearly every reputable scientist in the world is screaming about the dangers of the environment and impending catastrophe, while Dick Cheney twirls his mustache and plots to silence them.
* Billions of dollars in damages to the US economy from increasing floods and storms (likely the result of global warming).
* The housing market continues to deteriorate, and financial experts predict a very long and difficult time ahead.
* The dollar continues to plummet in value in the international market.
* The price of oil continues to skyrocket.  And the US is very, very dependent on oil.
* An education system that continues to decrease in quality, with increasing cutbacks due to state and local budget shortfalls.
* Decreasing of manufacturing, increasing in outsourcing and trade deficits.
* A ballooning national debt, with increasing debts to foreign lenders.
* High levels of joblessness.

If anyone can look at all that and still think we're doing just fine and should stay the course - well, I don't know what else to say.  That person sees a completely different world than the one I see.

What kind of world must I see if I look at your list and literally laughed out loud?

Quote from: Werekoala;224284Let me guess, we need more government in our lives to "fix" all those problems, right? And we should just give up and accept the Socialistic world-view of the rest of the world - why fight it, its so much easier to just relax and give in. Things will be MUCH better, you'll see... I mean come on, how much worse could it possibly be?

:teehee:

I know!  Let's institute more capitalism!  That will fix everything!

Well, I guess we should start by implementing some capitalism.  I don't know how the corporate welfare queens are going to take to getting off their lazy asses and working, though.

Quote from: jgants;224373I don't believe we have any more time left to wait.  I believe we are on the precipice of disaster now, and at best we have 10 more years before things get really bad.  I don't think wasting 4 of those years on someone who just wants to hold the fort is a good idea.  Feel free to disagree.

Again, I think you have more to learn from history.  

(Didn't read the long reply.  I see you already answered about the pending disasters.)

Quote from: James J Skach;224411Your passion is great; it's also seems a bit like chicken little. Despite the recent animated efforts to the contrary, however, the sky is not falling.

Are you willing to bet your children's lives on that?  How about their children's lives?  Is that Big Mac in the SUV more important than gambling on it not harming anything?

You may be perfectly satisfied with the wager you placed with your bookie, Pascal, but your actions still affect everyone around you, and not just your family.  All that consumption eventually ends up somewhere.  Landfill, toxic dump, runoff into streams and aquifers, soot in the air, it eventually goes everywhere.

So, when you move your family next to the landfill, across the street from the nuclear waste storage facility, behind the coal plant, on land that is rich in hexavalent chromium, you can shout all day about how great things are.  But as long as you live in a neighborhood as far as possible from those things, you can shut the fuck up about how harmless pollution is.

Or, I'm sorry, is this the eminent Dr Skach?  Climatologist and noted ecological studies pioneer?  No?  Then you can, again, shut the fuck up about both of those topics.

You want to poison yourself and your family?  Fine, I won't stop you.  But it pisses me off that people like you are so fucking oblivious that you would rather have a dozen kids get lung cancer from coal soot than pursue any green initiatives that would require some sacrifice, no matter how small.

Tragedy of the commons, indeed.

And before you trot out whatever nonsense you have primed for this kind of discussion, I am going to respond to everything with various citations and links from Real Climate.org.

Quote from: John Morrow;224496Again, I think you have more to learn from history.  

I think he's going to pass on the effort and go straight to repeating it myself.