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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2019, 12:41:54 AM

Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2019, 12:41:54 AM


Christ, this looks terrible. They've run Star Trek into the ground, and now they have to drag up Next Gen characters to try to drum up some enthusiasm.
I suppose it never occured to anyone to fix their shitty writing.
Title: Picard
Post by: jeff37923 on July 21, 2019, 08:08:43 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1096513
Christ, this looks terrible. They've run Star Trek into the ground, and now they have to drag up Next Gen characters to try to drum up some enthusiasm.
I suppose it never occured to anyone to fix their shitty writing.

Their best writer left the DS9 team and created NuBSG.
Title: Picard
Post by: Warboss Squee on July 21, 2019, 05:48:32 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1096537
Their best writer left the DS9 team and created NuBSG.

And that show was one good season and three of utter shit.

Not much of a lose in my opinion.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 21, 2019, 07:05:24 PM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1096581
And that show was one good season and three of utter shit.

Not much of a lose in my opinion.

I'd argue two and a half seasons. That's where I lost interest.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on July 23, 2019, 07:38:39 PM
Trailer looks good really.

But...

This is CBS involved which still practically mandates failure. 25% has to be different from the source. ugh!
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on July 24, 2019, 08:16:54 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1096537
Their best writer left the DS9 team and created NuBSG.

  Clarification: DS9 finished its run and Moore went to Voyager, left after three episodes, and then created NuBSG.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on July 24, 2019, 09:19:21 PM
The Picard show looks sad and lame, somehow more boring than ST:NG.

And the "new cast members" are abysmal. Even worse than the usual dull ST casts. The 7 of 9 cameo was decent fan service, but the show probably should have been Picard & Friends, aka, whoever they could get from NG, DS9 and Voyager who needed a paycheck.

But they got people to pay for SJW Trek with Discovery so why not suck more cash out of the same audience.
Title: Picard
Post by: deadDMwalking on July 25, 2019, 12:55:59 PM
Star Trek's inception could easily be described as 'SJW (https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/25/star-trek-fans-decry-discoverys-diversity-forgetting-gene-roddenberys-vision-of-inclusivity-6660755/)'.
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on July 25, 2019, 01:10:13 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096963
Star Trek's inception could easily be described as 'SJW (https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/25/star-trek-fans-decry-discoverys-diversity-forgetting-gene-roddenberys-vision-of-inclusivity-6660755/)'.

   The evidence for people disliking Discovery because of cast diversity as shown by that article is a handful of tweets, the most popular of which barely breaks a score of likes in the screenshot. This feels too much like an attempt to push the 'all critics are racist/sexist/misogynist/homophobic/transphobic/Islamophobic/polyphobic/diablophobic' narrative that we've seen before.

   I only watched the first episode of Discovery and didn't follow up because a) I generally don't use streaming services, and b) Michael Burnham reminded me too much of Janeway … SFDebris' Janeway.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 25, 2019, 03:13:51 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1096882
The Picard show looks sad and lame, somehow more boring than ST:NG.

And the "new cast members" are abysmal. Even worse than the usual dull ST casts. The 7 of 9 cameo was decent fan service, but the show probably should have been Picard & Friends, aka, whoever they could get from NG, DS9 and Voyager who needed a paycheck.

I going to predict the show will be more about Magical Kung-Fu Girl of Destiny, with Picard and Seven merely being supporting characters for whatever bullshit story arc Kurtzman pulled out of his ass.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on July 25, 2019, 07:00:53 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096963
Star Trek's inception could easily be described as 'SJW (https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/25/star-trek-fans-decry-discoverys-diversity-forgetting-gene-roddenberys-vision-of-inclusivity-6660755/)'.

Except Original Star Trek was not SJW. Try again please.
Title: Picard
Post by: jeff37923 on July 25, 2019, 07:11:01 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096963
Star Trek's inception could easily be described as 'SJW (https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/25/star-trek-fans-decry-discoverys-diversity-forgetting-gene-roddenberys-vision-of-inclusivity-6660755/)'.


....
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3620[/ATTACH]
Title: Picard
Post by: deadDMwalking on July 26, 2019, 01:30:59 PM
Quote from: Omega;1097010
Except Original Star Trek was not SJW. Try again please.


Maybe I don't understand what you mean when you use the term.

Let That Be Your Last Battlefield (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708435/)
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on July 26, 2019, 02:15:33 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1097012
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]3620[/ATTACH]

I have to admit that Spinachcat opened that door, not deadDMwalking.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097118
Maybe I don't understand what you mean when you use the term.

Let That Be Your Last Battlefield (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708435/)

I'd say that episode is the opposite of Social Justice. I find that SJ is heavily invested in identity politics, and neither character was portrayed as morally superior. They both were driven by hatred of the other.
Title: Picard
Post by: kosmos1214 on August 03, 2019, 09:36:11 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1097125
I have to admit that Spinachcat opened that door, not deadDMwalking.



I'd say that episode is the opposite of Social Justice. I find that SJ is heavily invested in identity politics, and neither character was portrayed as morally superior. They both were driven by hatred of the other.

In other word why hatred for hatreds sake is BAD.
Title: Picard
Post by: Doom on August 12, 2019, 08:11:08 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1096969
The evidence for people disliking Discovery because of cast diversity as shown by that article is a handful of tweets, the most popular of which barely breaks a score of likes in the screenshot. This feels too much like an attempt to push the 'all critics are racist/sexist/misogynist/homophobic/transphobic/Islamophobic/polyphobic/diablophobic' narrative that we've seen before.

   I only watched the first episode of Discovery and didn't follow up because a) I generally don't use streaming services, and b) Michael Burnham reminded me too much of Janeway … SFDebris' Janeway.


I loathed Janeway, but gained great appreciation for Mulgrew in OitnB. Turns out a great actress still can't save horrid writing (though when the writing starting getting weak in Orange, she could carry it).
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on August 12, 2019, 09:34:37 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1097125
I have to admit that Spinachcat opened that door, not deadDMwalking.


True dat!


Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096963
Star Trek's inception could easily be described as 'SJW (https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/25/star-trek-fans-decry-discoverys-diversity-forgetting-gene-roddenberys-vision-of-inclusivity-6660755/)'.


And RPGs were never inclusive until WotC got woke!

1984 = 2019 is our new math.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 12, 2020, 09:02:24 PM
Picard is going full anti-Trump/anti-Brexit (https://www.npr.org/2020/01/12/795631574/patrick-stewart-didnt-want-to-reprise-captain-picard-in-a-post-brexit-world)

Yay. I'm looking forward to being lectured by Patrick Stewart in-between his adult-diaper changes.
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 13, 2020, 09:43:57 AM
This is going to be early TNG with better production values, isn't it?
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 13, 2020, 10:27:14 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1118959
This is going to be early TNG with better production values, isn't it?

I wouldn't dignify it with that comparison. Early TNG at least was trying to be a new Star Trek. Kelvin/Discovery style Trek is mindless action and drama gibberish.



I see no indications that Picard is going to be any better.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 13, 2020, 10:48:27 AM
Let this zombie die already. Sometimes dead is better.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1097118
Maybe I don't understand what you mean when you use the term.

Spinachat made it political but il say this.
Star Trek very much did have SJW influences that were overlooked and eventually metastasized into the nonsense culture we have now.

It was lesser and tempered with at least a level of pragmatism and because the original series was built in the shadow of the cold war it didn't go completely pie in the sky stupid (No ****ing currency in the federation). But as that sort of thing ended it did very much indulge in SJW crap.
That said I still very much like Deep Space 9 for having a level of self-awareness. Even if only a little bit.
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 13, 2020, 11:18:30 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1118961
I wouldn't dignify it with that comparison. Early TNG at least was trying to be a new Star Trek. Kelvin/Discovery style Trek is mindless action and drama gibberish.

I see no indications that Picard is going to be any better.


  Well, early TNG was terribly preachy and might have been SJW if that ideology had been around. (Roddenberry would have been onboard with most of the progressivism, but would also have been heavily #MeTooed.)
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on January 14, 2020, 11:17:05 PM
Quote from: Warboss Squee;1096581
And that show was one good season and three of utter shit.

Not much of a lose in my opinion.


Yeah, and your opinion is full of Crap.
-Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on January 14, 2020, 11:20:00 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1096963
Star Trek's inception could easily be described as 'SJW (https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/25/star-trek-fans-decry-discoverys-diversity-forgetting-gene-roddenberys-vision-of-inclusivity-6660755/)'.

No, it couldn't - because that damn term wasn't around in 1964

You and the other cynical pessimists can just shut up and let the rest of us have fun watching what looks like Good Stuff.

- Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: Kiero on January 15, 2020, 06:09:14 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1118923
Picard is going full anti-Trump/anti-Brexit (https://www.npr.org/2020/01/12/795631574/patrick-stewart-didnt-want-to-reprise-captain-picard-in-a-post-brexit-world)

Yay. I'm looking forward to being lectured by Patrick Stewart in-between his adult-diaper changes.

I saw this the other day. Went from "probably not" to "definitely not".
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 15, 2020, 07:35:54 AM
Quote from: Koltar;1119116
No, it couldn't - because that damn term wasn't around in 1964

You and the other cynical pessimists can just shut up and let the rest of us have fun watching what looks like Good Stuff.

- Ed C.

Indeed. Don't ask questions . Just consume product and get excited for next product.
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on January 15, 2020, 09:31:56 AM
Quote from: Koltar;1119116
No, it couldn't - because that damn term wasn't around in 1964
- Ed C.


  But to be fair, Star Trek has always had that progressive tendency. Sometimes it gets muted by the demands of the time and other creatives and stakeholders (TOS), sometimes it gets questioned and challenged (DS9), other times it gets to burst forth and strut in all its arrogance (early TNG). We'll see how Picard turns out, but it's sounding like it's going to be closest to the third.
Title: Picard
Post by: deadDMwalking on January 15, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
Quote from: Koltar;1119116
No, it couldn't - because that damn term wasn't around in 1964

You and the other cynical pessimists can just shut up and let the rest of us have fun watching what looks like Good Stuff.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1119142
But to be fair, Star Trek has always had that progressive tendency. Sometimes it gets muted by the demands of the time and other creatives and stakeholders (TOS), sometimes it gets questioned and challenged (DS9), other times it gets to burst forth and strut in all its arrogance (early TNG). We'll see how Picard turns out, but it's sounding like it's going to be closest to the third.

I don't understand or agree with people trying to use the term SJW as a pejorative when they really mean 'progressive'.  My point is that Star Trek was a very progressive TV show.  The show reflected a level of multiculturalism that wasn't common for the time period.  In both the original Star Trek and Next Generation, the emphasis was on finding a way to live peaceably with aliens, not shoot them in the face.  The idea of a world at peace with every child having a chance to reach their full potential regardless of circumstances of birth is exactly the kind of progressivism that people on this board like to attack 'SJWs' for.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 15, 2020, 12:25:31 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1119150
I don't understand or agree with people trying to use the term SJW as a pejorative when they really mean 'progressive'.

Alright, let's work on that. I feel like this is a topic I wanted to discuss with you forever. If a conversation begins with a misunderstanding then, of course, it will go nowhere. First off define what you mean as "Progressive".
I find that by defining itself as "Progressive" it's like calling an ideology "Good-ism". You define yourself as a good, which sets you up to perpetually view your own position as infallible. So you define as what you see as progressive and set down your values.

Could you also imagine a motive that's not thought in bad faith, or coming from an area of ignorance or malicious attempts to preserve their own privilege that would explain how somebody could dislike progressive policies?

Quote
In both the original Star Trek and Next Generation, the emphasis was on finding a way to live peaceably with aliens, not shoot them in the face.

For instance, what bothers me very much so in Star Trek is that it is about co-existence....By generally eroding any sense of identity from each culture. It was multicultural, but each culture meant absolutely nothing in the face of a blandish monoculture. I understand this came from a time of fear from the cold war so at the time it felt important to curtail individual expression and freedom in exchange for survival. But at what cost.

The Borg serves as a fantastic example of what "Existence and Cooperation at the expense of everything else" is, and DS9 rightly pointed out that it's the closest to the federation in its values. The borg see themselves as the ultimate species. They value multiculturalism and every individual but only in a token sense. In their perspective, these differences cause war, conflict, and destroy themselves losing their uniqueness forever. The borg ensures that every individual lives a perfect infinite life. All their cultural uniqueness and heritage perfectly preserved in data banks. Outside of when their expanding, Borg sectors are peaceful, productive and mostly quiet as long as bad writers aren't getting involved.
The borgs don't have an internal conflict (Outside of a few minor episodes), generally exist in lives of peace without circumstances of birth getting in the way allowed to reach their full potential as a collective.

So I as an indivual don't see ultimate egalitarianism as the only virtue as part of human life. If this means this brings difference, suffering, and conflict then so be it. Because the alternative is the borg.

This really rubbed me the wrong way in DS9 when Bajor just becomes another federation point, with its aspects of life slowly eroding away because everybody in the universe thinks the same and wants the same things. It was especially egregious with the Ferengi. I remember one youtube comment that was like "I wanted the ferengi to become less sexist but I didn't want them to stop being ferengi!"
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 15, 2020, 01:36:34 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119156
This really rubbed me the wrong way in DS9 when Bajor just becomes another federation point, with its aspects of life slowly eroding away because everybody in the universe thinks the same and wants the same things. It was especially egregious with the Ferengi. I remember one youtube comment that was like "I wanted the ferengi to become less sexist but I didn't want them to stop being ferengi!"

Heh. I could talk about the Ferengi. They were a blatant strawman dig at captialism, and a caricature of sexism, past usefulness for storytelling and right into propoganda.
DS9 did a lot of heavy lifting to make the Ferengi more palatable as actual people, but I'd really have liked to see them as Capitalist, Objectivist kind of anti-Federation but still decent people. Hearing a Ferengi quote the Rules of Aquisition that are mustache twirling bad "Exploitation begins at home!" is silly fun, but reduces the Ferengi to comic relief.

Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on January 15, 2020, 01:52:08 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119156
For instance, what bothers me very much so in Star Trek is that it is about co-existence....By generally eroding any sense of identity from each culture. It was multicultural, but each culture meant absolutely nothing in the face of a blandish monoculture. I understand this came from a time of fear from the cold war so at the time it felt important to curtail individual expression and freedom in exchange for survival. But at what cost.

The Federation was not a bland monoculture. However, Starfleet was such because that is what is necessary for a paramilitary service arm that incorporates thousands of cultures. As Starfleet was the focal point of most Star Trek stories, it is easy to believe that all of the Federation is like Starfleet, but that is not true. Even on the shows, when a character is asked to put their cultural individuality aside, it is because they are a Starfleet officer, not because their culture is not valued.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 15, 2020, 02:20:14 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119164
Heh. I could talk about the Ferengi. They were a blatant strawman dig at captialism, and a caricature of sexism, past usefulness for storytelling and right into propoganda.
DS9 did a lot of heavy lifting to make the Ferengi more palatable as actual people, but I'd really have liked to see them as Capitalist, Objectivist kind of anti-Federation but still decent people. Hearing a Ferengi quote the Rules of Aquisition that are mustache twirling bad "Exploitation begins at home!" is silly fun, but reduces the Ferengi to comic relief.

I found this video super entertaining for that reason:



Because the arguments it makes against war from an economical bent are TERRIBLE. Because the writers don't understand basic economics. But they're trying so hard! They're trying to get into the headspace of somebody that's not them very hard but they fall short. For at least TRYING though, I respect them a ton and thats why DS9 is my favorite.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119167
The Federation was not a bland monoculture.

This is me talking about what I saw from planets under Federation care, and what states the federation saw as its "Pinnacle". I'm not digging at the things necessary to make a military. In there I'm all for "Shave your head and take out your goddam piercings".
The Federation sees the optimal state of affairs (using Earth as a reference point for their idea of utopia) as a top-down controlled economy, with a very strong central government.

I'm also thinking about the sort of thing the Federation always pushes against and promotes whenever possible. You live by its standards and once you join you can't leave.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on January 15, 2020, 03:59:21 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119172
I found this video super entertaining for that reason:



Because the arguments it makes against war from an economical bent are TERRIBLE. Because the writers don't understand basic economics. But they're trying so hard! They're trying to get into the headspace of somebody that's not them very hard but they fall short. For at least TRYING though, I respect them a ton and thats why DS9 is my favorite.



This is me talking about what I saw from planets under Federation care, and what states the federation saw as its "Pinnacle". I'm not digging at the things necessary to make a military. In there I'm all for "Shave your head and take out your goddam piercings".
The Federation sees the optimal state of affairs (using Earth as a reference point for their idea of utopia) as a top-down controlled economy, with a very strong central government.

I'm also thinking about the sort of thing the Federation always pushes against and promotes whenever possible. You live by its standards and once you join you can't leave.

Again, the lens is very much focused on Starfleet and its interactions with member worlds. Some of the novels, sourcebooks, and even RPG materials delve more into non-Starfleet matters.

As for not being able to withdraw from the Federation, I'm not sure that is necessarily the case. Do you have any specific source on that?
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 15, 2020, 04:51:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1119182
Again, the lens is very much focused on Starfleet and its interactions with member worlds. Some of the novels, sourcebooks, and even RPG materials delve more into non-Starfleet matters.

As for not being able to withdraw from the Federation, I'm not sure that is necessarily the case. Do you have any specific source on that?

The Maki from DS9. That's a great example of the federation pushing for "Peace" at the expense of the people getting punched in the face. I know that was a complex situation, but that was the Federation throwing people under the bus to buy itself convenience.
Picard sparing world-ending threats that have killed millions also comes to mind.

And I feel its a bit unfair using 3rd party elements. Those have varied writers so you can pick and choose the federation you want.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on January 15, 2020, 05:40:19 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119184
The Maki from DS9. That's a great example of the federation pushing for "Peace" at the expense of the people getting punched in the face. I know that was a complex situation, but that was the Federation throwing people under the bus to buy itself convenience.
Picard sparing world-ending threats that have killed millions also comes to mind.

And I feel its a bit unfair using 3rd party elements. Those have varied writers so you can pick and choose the federation you want.

The Federation only stuck with protecting the Maquis to keep the Cardassians from simply exterminating them. The Maquis didn't want to be totally free of the Federation; they wanted the benefits/protection while ignoring the political reality of the situation.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 15, 2020, 05:50:58 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1119190
The Federation only stuck with protecting the Maquis to keep the Cardassians from simply exterminating them. The Maquis didn't want to be totally free of the Federation; they wanted the benefits/protection while ignoring the political reality of the situation.

I can say that the scenario was kinda vauge. Maybe 3rd party content flavored it one way, but I was pretty certain the Maquis wanted independence and no support from the federation. But like I just don't think that was ever spelled out.

However, the spelled out the political reality of the situation was that the federation valued helping out an enemy (That had repeatedly reneged over its promises multiple times and is run in a totalitarian police state that colonizes less-developed planets) over their own people (And where willing to use force to suppress them but not Cardassians) for moral grandstanding reasons. Moral grandstanding is a thing the federation likes to do (Again world enders spared). They could have sent over help with caveats they would leave the maquis alone, or something like that but they didn't.

Things generally work out for the federation because of dues ex machinas the writers bust out as opposed to having a set of principles that would sustain them (outside of the secret police they have I guess).

I feel like your pick and mixing 3rd party content to make the federation you like.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 15, 2020, 06:40:14 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119192
I can say that the scenario was kinda vauge. Maybe 3rd party content flavored it one way, but I was pretty certain the Maquis wanted independence and no support from the federation. But like I just don't think that was ever spelled out.

However, the spelled out the political reality of the situation was that the federation valued helping out an enemy (That had repeatedly reneged over its promises multiple times and is run in a totalitarian police state that colonizes less-developed planets) over their own people (And where willing to use force to suppress them but not Cardassians) for moral grandstanding reasons. Moral grandstanding is a thing the federation likes to do (Again world enders spared). They could have sent over help with caveats they would leave the maquis alone, or something like that but they didn't.

Things generally work out for the federation because of dues ex machinas the writers bust out as opposed to having a set of principles that would sustain them (outside of the secret police they have I guess).

You now, I like most of the Maquis storylines because it did grey up the Next Gen Federation. For all the talk about how the Federation solved all the problems of humanity by *handwave*, they struck up a story where there were no easy solutions, and had some interesting fallout from that.
In the Federation's defense, they were 100% ready to transport all the colonists out of the DMZ. Many of them chose to stay.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 15, 2020, 07:13:31 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119197
In the Federation's defense, they were 100% ready to transport all the colonists out of the DMZ. Many of them chose to stay.

No that's the point. That they were essentially going to relocate them by force if necessary in order to preserve a peace treaty with an enemy that doesn't follow it. And not only that when that enemy was later in a position of weakness (caused almost entirely by its own arrogance), the first helping hand was given to them and not the colonists.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on January 15, 2020, 07:22:18 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119198
No that's the point. That they were essentially going to relocate them by force if necessary in order to preserve a peace treaty with an enemy that doesn't follow it. And not only that when that enemy was later in a position of weakness (caused almost entirely by its own arrogance), the first helping hand was given to them and not the colonists.

The Cardassians had (largely) followed it. They were supposed to cede worlds to Federation control just as the Federation was supposed to give them control over certain worlds. The colonists of those worlds--on both sides--didn't go for it.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 15, 2020, 07:53:11 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1119200
The Cardassians had (largely) followed it.

Now Ima use the Star Trek Wiki for reference, in case I don't remember it all. The Cardassians literally provoked the colonists and sabotaged their lives despite promises of neutrality. And the treaty favored the Cardassians, who were always the unprovoked aggressors.
The Cardassians secretly armed their colonists with weapons to harass the Federation colonies to get them to leave. So largely following the treaty my ass.

Now let me be clear: I very much respect the writers for making such a complex scenario. But star trek also has a bit of a tendency to write moral dilemmas and then dues ex machine their way out of them.
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on January 15, 2020, 08:12:00 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1097012
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]3620[/ATTACH]


Holy crap - I am agreeing with Jeff....

-Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on January 15, 2020, 08:12:37 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119203
Now Ima use the Star Trek Wiki for reference, in case I don't remember it all. The Cardassians literally provoked the colonists and sabotaged their lives despite promises of neutrality. And the treaty favored the Cardassians, who were always the unprovoked aggressors.
The Cardassians secretly armed their colonists with weapons to harass the Federation colonies to get them to leave. So largely following the treaty my ass.

Now let me be clear: I very much respect the writers for making such a complex scenario. But star trek also has a bit of a tendency to write moral dilemmas and then dues ex machine their way out of them.

Yeah, they do discover that deception during the show, but the background set-up made it look like the Maquis were the main source of the problem.

And I do agree about the deus ex machina butt-pulls.
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on January 15, 2020, 08:16:48 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1118923
Picard is going full anti-Trump/anti-Brexit (https://www.npr.org/2020/01/12/795631574/patrick-stewart-didnt-want-to-reprise-captain-picard-in-a-post-brexit-world)

Yay. I'm looking forward to being lectured by Patrick Stewart in-between his adult-diaper changes.


NOT Funny or accurate in any form.

Patrick Stewart is actually in better physical shape than all the actors that starred as a Captain on past "Star Trek" show, except maybe Scott Bakula since he has been doing the show "NCIS New Orleans".

This is not "me" saying this - other actors and folks in the industry have noted that Patrick Stewart keeps himself in good health. When "TNG" was New - he was 15 years younger than the character he was playing.

- Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 15, 2020, 08:28:42 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1119210
Yeah, they do discover that deception during the show, but the background set-up made it look like the Maquis were the main source of the problem.

And I do agree about the deus ex machina butt-pulls.

They are id say a smaller part of the problem which is "The Cardassians are vile deceptive aggressors". True they could have packed in all their shit abandoned all their work and gone to live where the Feds said they should be living that day, and maybe that would have de-escalated some tensions until the Cardies started more campaigns of sabotage (Which they totally would considering all preceding evidence).

Quote from: Koltar;1119213
NOT Funny or accurate in any form.

Accurate maybe not but humor is subjective. Why you so goddam defensive about a fucking TV show? You take offense at the very idea that some people might not be looking forward to it.
Title: Picard
Post by: deadDMwalking on January 15, 2020, 08:36:37 PM
Independent of the current conversation, when someone says they hate something for a specific reason and their specific reason is incorrect, it would stand to reason that they might not hate that something in question.  

For example, if I say: I hate mangoes because they're a nightshade like tomatoes or bell peppers, you might think that I wouldn't hate mangoes once I realize my mistake.  If instead I just hate mangoes and I'm looking for ANY justification it won't matter that I'm wrong - I'm still going to hate mangoes.  The problem with online communication is that you can't usually tell someone who has made an honest mistake from someone being a deliberate troll without some amount of engagement.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on January 15, 2020, 09:54:53 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1119150
The idea of a world at peace with every child having a chance to reach their full potential regardless of circumstances of birth is exactly the kind of progressivism that people on this board like to attack 'SJWs' for.


A lie.

SJWs get attacked because they want the diametric opposite of progressiveness. They stifle and strangle it to death at every turn and promote hate, segregation, distrust and an ever more oppressive intolerant mindset.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on January 15, 2020, 10:01:21 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119156
For instance, what bothers me very much so in Star Trek is that it is about co-existence....By generally eroding any sense of identity from each culture. It was multicultural, but each culture meant absolutely nothing in the face of a blandish monoculture. I understand this came from a time of fear from the cold war so at the time it felt important to curtail individual expression and freedom in exchange for survival. But at what cost.


Not really. You are looking at a forest with 100 different types of trees in it and seeing only "bland forest". I may bot like TNG much but bland mono-culture they were very not. Bland mono pseudo-military very yes. But that is totally different. I mean really. One of the recurring complaints leveled at the series was the incessant screeching of "planet of the hats". Since pretty much every culture they encountered, even within the Federation, was different and focused on one theme or another. Which totally misses the point that if you adhere too much to an ideal that it can take over your culture and possibly ruin it or at least stifle it in some way depending on how pervasive it is.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on January 15, 2020, 10:12:06 PM
Quote from: Omega;1119229
Not really.

I engaged with Happydaze with a large conversation about this beforehand. Also hat planets are probably more realistic then planets that feel like ours. Alien cultures are likely to be so extreme in comparison to ours that they would appear to be stereotypes to us. We would also probably appear as stereotypes to them ("Earths the Planet of the Entertainment species right? Where everything is around how to entertain?").

And TNG didn't focus in-depth about how these cultures could co-exist and when it did it in future series it showed cultural erosion. TNG is largely uncritical of itself and very smug.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 16, 2020, 12:10:59 AM
Quote from: Koltar;1119213
NOT Funny or accurate in any form.


I thought it was fuckin hilarious.

I don't have a lot of charity for CBS or Patrick Stewart. I think CBS is trying to prop up their franchise's flagging popularity (https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/star_trek_discovery/s02) by dragging up old actors, hoping a nostalgia fix will cover up their hideous writing (https://youtu.be/5SHhySoXDcA?t=2439). Meanwhile Patrick Stewart has signed on the show only because it will give him a chance to flog his personal politics (https://www.npr.org/2020/01/12/795631574/patrick-stewart-didnt-want-to-reprise-captain-picard-in-a-post-brexit-world).

I can hardly think of a more fertile ground for a cynical show full of assholes being assholes, that takes a huge, steaming dump on Star Trek.

So fuck 'em.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on January 16, 2020, 01:55:51 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1119231
I engaged with Happydaze with a large conversation about this beforehand. Also hat planets are probably more realistic then planets that feel like ours. Alien cultures are likely to be so extreme in comparison to ours that they would appear to be stereotypes to us. We would also probably appear as stereotypes to them ("Earths the Planet of the Entertainment species right? Where everything is around how to entertain?").

And TNG didn't focus in-depth about how these cultures could co-exist and when it did it in future series it showed cultural erosion. TNG is largely uncritical of itself and very smug.

To me it felt more like the Federation was increasingly hands off everything unless it directly impacted Earth sometimes. The Prime Directive had been elevated to quasi religion at this point sufficient that they just stand by and let a civilizations die because the great god Prime Directive says so. At times the Federation felt borderline isolationist with everyone left to practically fend for themselves unless they asked for help. And even then the Federation might decide "oops Prime Directive! Die please for our god!"

And so on ad nausium. This new Picard series will be more of the same ol same ol TNG preaching. Just with new subjects. At least the original series was a bit more subtle about it and tended to not bash you over the head with a rock to make a point. TNG shines when it was not beating you over the head with some point.
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on January 24, 2020, 12:18:35 AM
Minor Miracle - I actually got to see it on the same First day as everyone else.

A friend invited my family over to watch it.

It was really GOOD.

- Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 24, 2020, 01:10:08 AM
My brother signed up for the CBS free trial, and I watched the episode out of the corner of my eye while playing video games.

Meh. Mostly empty drama and action. I did laugh at the end, where they played some weird sound effect over the title and I thought "Star Trek: Transformers"
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on January 24, 2020, 02:39:18 PM
Is it set in the normal Trek universe or the fucked up Abrams verse?
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 24, 2020, 03:01:39 PM
Quote from: Omega;1119934
Is it set in the normal Trek universe or the fucked up Abrams verse?

Both.

I mean, it's set after the explosion of the Romulan sun, which was a plot point in 09 Trek.
It looks and feels in tone like Star Trek Discovery, with a few callouts to Next Gen.
There are some very strange things that don't track to what we know about Trek.

[spoiler]Romulans that spit acid, and the Federation going anti-"synthetic" androids.[/spoiler]

With Picard, the argument could be made that all of TOS and TNG were wiped out/altered by the Kelvin timeline.
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on January 24, 2020, 03:37:12 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119935
Both.

With Picard, the argument could be made that all of TOS and TNG were wiped out/altered by the Kelvin timeline.

No, you are completely wrong about that.
That argument can't be made.

- Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 24, 2020, 03:50:55 PM
Quote from: Koltar;1119937
No, you are completely wrong about that.
That argument can't be made.

- Ed C.

I'll make it now.

The incursion of TNG Spock into the past has already altered the timeline. He's interacted with his past self. Given himself clues about the future. The Enterprise has already encountered Khan earlier, and in a different context than Space Seed. So that epsiode is definitley retconned. That means the events of Wrath of Khan will be altered, since Kirk and company are well aware of his existence, and Kahn wasn't left on Ceti Alpha V. This means the Genesis device events are up in the air as to how that situation plays out.

The synthetic rebellion on mars (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Children_of_Mars_(episode)) was a Short Trek episode from the Discovery series, which is a major plot point in Picard. The Romulan sun going nova is what sent Nero and then Spock back in time. Thus the Kelvin timeline is the "past" of the TNG era. Since the Romulan catastrophe in Picard is also part of the Kelvin timeline.

*Multiple edits because time travel shenanigans makes this a snarl to untangle*
Title: Picard
Post by: steelshadow on January 24, 2020, 04:00:30 PM
Watched it over my lunch break this afternoon. While it was very pretty (just like Discovery is pretty), it seemed very out of joint with classic Star Trek. That's not necessarily a bad thing - I like to see an IP go in new directions sometimes rather than treading the same ground over an over  - but like with Discovery, this felt pretty flat/hollow to me. And regardless of the fact that it's probable that this is still the regular TNG timeline (ie, we're just past the point where original Spock went back and split the movie timeline, from my reading of the situation), until something more definitive is stated in or out of universe, the argument could be made that the reason this feels different from TNG is due to timeline changes due to the Ambramsverse.

Fruitless arguments on that aside, I'm also not really feeling Picard as the protagonist on this one - the fact that Stewart is rapidly approaching 80 is very apparent to me, and while I'm sure he's well suited for the mentor role they're setting him up for as the cast coalesces, it hampers the pilot for me to have the character that the bulk of the runtime revolves around feel so weak, for lack of a better term.
Title: Picard
Post by: estar on January 26, 2020, 12:23:09 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119939
I'll make it now.


It is called parallel universes or alternate timelines. Both coexist.

Read up on it
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlternateUniverse

Or have David Gerrold, the guy who wrote Troubles with Trimble, explain it to you in the Man who folded himself.

https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Folded-Himself/dp/1932100040
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 26, 2020, 01:52:19 AM
Quote from: estar;1120009
It is called parallel universes or alternate timelines. Both coexist.

Read up on it
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlternateUniverse

Or have David Gerrold, the guy who wrote Troubles with Trimble, explain it to you in the Man who folded himself.

https://www.amazon.com/Man-Who-Folded-Himself/dp/1932100040

Yes, I'm aware of the idea. I'm also aware that the Kelvin timeline is supposed to be an alternate reality.
I'm also aware that the Discovery series and now Picard are radically different from the Trek that preceded them. Both in tone, and in the historical details. (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/discovery_continuity.htm)

Considering that the original TNG timeline is supposedly including the Romulan supernova incident, tied to the Kelvin timeline, these radical changes could be explained by there not being an alternate reality, but instead a change to the original timeline. A cascade of potential changes from the original timeline being altered.

Though, of course, the real reason is that Discovery and now Picard don't care too much about continuity. But just to make the impossible argument.
Title: Picard
Post by: estar on January 26, 2020, 09:52:01 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1120012

Though, of course, the real reason is that Discovery and now Picard don't care too much about continuity. But just to make the impossible argument.

The difference is that Discovery (and Enterprise) are set in Star Trek so any inconsistencies are jarring. Picard is set in the future of TNG and thus and extension of canon. In addition the various inciting incidents of Picard are also set in the future of TNG and ST:Nemesis. You are comparing apples and oranges.

As for the ties to the Kelvin timeline there are none. The Romulan supernova as depicted in the first Abrams ST film took place in the prime timeline. From the POV of the timeline Spock disappeared while trying to stop it presumably killed.

As for the future depicted in the 1st episode it is no more different than the changes we saw to the Federation in DS9 and ST: Insurrection  as a result of the Dominion war. Changes I feel are consistent with them. However the I also know that episode is from Picard POV we likely don't have a complete picture at this point.
Title: Picard
Post by: insubordinate polyhedral on January 29, 2020, 12:52:10 AM
I'm just here to post the RLM review.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=hfQdf93e63I
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 04, 2020, 07:58:12 PM
So be warned spoilers ahead

[SPOILER]In episode 2 they needed a clue and so a magical mcguffin is used, the "scientific" principle of it is Homeopathic Forensics.

Seriously, it needs but a molecule to reconstruct the whole scene into a hologram.[/SPOILER]

Who the fuck is writing this shit?
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on February 05, 2020, 04:38:16 AM
But Stewart will play the role, he says, as a way of injecting some of his own virtue into a world torn by Brexit and by President Donald Trump, he tells Variety Magazine in an extensive profile.

"Picard," he notes, is "me responding to the world of Brexit and Trump and feeling, 'Why hasn't the federation changed? Why hasn't Starfleet changed? Maybe they're not as reliable and trustworthy as we all thought."

Stewart goes on to describe both the United Kingdom and the United States as "fucked."


https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/2020/01/15/star-trek-gets-woke/


Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121018
Who the fuck is writing this shit?


Clowns as dumb as their main actor.

And when your motivation for writing is "go woke" and not "tell a great story", the results are predictable.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 05, 2020, 07:23:43 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121018
So be warned spoilers ahead

[SPOILER]In episode 2 they needed a clue and so a magical mcguffin is used, the "scientific" principle of it is Homeopathic Forensics.

Seriously, it needs but a molecule to reconstruct the whole scene into a hologram.[/SPOILER]

Who the fuck is writing this shit?

In their defense, this is the future of TNG. They had transporters that could scan you down to the atomic level and recreate you at a distance of miles. And they've had this tech for hundreds of years.
Who knows what kind of whacky technology would be possible to spin off of that kind of tech? A scanner that can "determine the quantum state of the past by extrapolating from it's current state"? No problem.

To take that defense away, they likely aren't thinking like that. This is a future with transporter doorways, yet people at Utopia Planitia were assembling starships by hand and wearing hard hats.

Post TNG, the only logical place to take the technology level, was some kind of crazy post-singularity society with sentient computers, thought operated replicators that could let you play around with matter at a whim, and genetically engineered telepathy. (The setting already has empaths and telepaths, no reason why they can't engineer it in other races) Starships would have been obsolete, with people using super-tech implants to allow them to fly through space at warp speeds without any visible hardware. Just a few super-tech force field and warp field generating implants.

I think a big part of the reason why Trek started doing prequels instead of sequels (Enterprise, 09 Trek, Discovery) is because tech-wise, the setting had no where else to go, except a strange hypertech future that wouldn't feel like Trek anymore.
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2020, 10:00:16 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121045
In their defense, this is the future of TNG. They had transporters that could scan you down to the atomic level and recreate you at a distance of miles. And they've had this tech for hundreds of years.
Who knows what kind of whacky technology would be possible to spin off of that kind of tech? A scanner that can "determine the quantum state of the past by extrapolating from it's current state"? No problem.

To take that defense away, they likely aren't thinking like that. This is a future with transporter doorways, yet people at Utopia Planitia were assembling starships by hand and wearing hard hats.

Post TNG, the only logical place to take the technology level, was some kind of crazy post-singularity society with sentient computers, thought operated replicators that could let you play around with matter at a whim, and genetically engineered telepathy. (The setting already has empaths and telepaths, no reason why they can't engineer it in other races) Starships would have been obsolete, with people using super-tech implants to allow them to fly through space at warp speeds without any visible hardware. Just a few super-tech force field and warp field generating implants.

I think a big part of the reason why Trek started doing prequels instead of sequels (Enterprise, 09 Trek, Discovery) is because tech-wise, the setting had no where else to go, except a strange hypertech future that wouldn't feel like Trek anymore.

If we're talking quantum you could maybe extrapolate one possible state for that molecule, but how the fuck do you get the information about the other billions of molecules? It's homeopathic forensics, and as such it's BS.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on February 05, 2020, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121055
If we're talking quantum you could maybe extrapolate one possible state for that molecule, but how the fuck do you get the information about the other billions of molecules? It's homeopathic forensics, and as such it's BS.

As one reviewer put it. All evidence points to the writers having read a few paragraphs of ST tech and just up and deciding its all magic now. Keep in mind too that Picard is not set in TNG. In ep 2 they clearly show the Enterprise from Discovery. So just sit back and expect more "magic" because thats all these hacks can come up with for plots. Need an antimatter replicator? Sure we can make that from 3 paperclips and the handle off a phazer because... magic!
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 05, 2020, 01:48:10 PM
"But Old Star Trek Used technobabble as well!"

And that was the worst part of it every time. These hacks only care about the past for excuses and disregard it when its convenient otherwise.
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2020, 02:02:54 PM
Quote from: Omega;1121071
As one reviewer put it. All evidence points to the writers having read a few paragraphs of ST tech and just up and deciding its all magic now. Keep in mind too that Picard is not set in TNG. In ep 2 they clearly show the Enterprise from Discovery. So just sit back and expect more "magic" because thats all these hacks can come up with for plots. Need an antimatter replicator? Sure we can make that from 3 paperclips and the handle off a phazer because... magic!

Exactly, this is more Bad Reboot/Kurtzman and company bullshit. It's not ST but D&D In Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2020, 02:05:40 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1121079
"But Old Star Trek Used technobabble as well!"

And that was the worst part of it every time. These hacks only care about the past for excuses and disregard it when its convenient otherwise.

Exactly, and are worst at the technobabble than the previous writers of ST were (not counting STD since that shit isn't canon).
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on February 05, 2020, 02:14:46 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121087
....not counting STD since that shit isn't canon).

Star Trek: Discovery IS Canon....

-Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 05, 2020, 02:16:57 PM
Quote from: Koltar;1121089
Star Trek: Discovery IS Canon....

-Ed C.

I guess. So is Threshold. Man why you so defensive about a mass media property.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 05, 2020, 02:57:02 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121055
If we're talking quantum you could maybe extrapolate one possible state for that molecule, but how the fuck do you get the information about the other billions of molecules? It's homeopathic forensics, and as such it's BS.

If the subatomic particles share a quantum entanglement  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement)with the other subatomic particles, and the universe is deterministic, then you could 'read' the states of all the entangled particles, and extrapolate backwards to a past state.
It's no more BS than warp drives and transporters.

Of course, I really doubt the writers thought of that, or the implications of such a scanner (https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Prescience), they just needed to move the plot along, and were too lazy to write any forensic/detective work.
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2020, 03:17:06 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121099
If the subatomic particles share a quantum entanglement  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement)with the other subatomic particles, and the universe is deterministic, then you could 'read' the states of all the entangled particles, and extrapolate backwards to a past state.
It's no more BS than warp drives and transporters.

Of course, I really doubt the writers thought of that, or the implications of such a scanner, they just needed to move the plot along, and were too lazy to write any forensic/detective work.

One particle shares a quantum entanglement with another particle, which shares the same with the first particle, it's one to one. Quantum also postulates that you can know only one thing about a particle, either it's position, speed or direction.

Now lets talk about a molecule, lets say it's from strong female character, so it's carbon based human molecule, since the biggest organ in a human is the skin we'll say it's a skin molecule. since we're mostly water we'll say it's water from a skin cell. So it's h2o.

How many particles are in ONE water molecule? It depends what you mean by particles. Water (H2O) is, of course, made up of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom. Each hydrogen atom is made up of one proton and one electron. An oxygen atom is made up of 8 protons, 8 neutrons and 8 electrons. Neutrons and protons are classified as hadrons, subatomic particles that are subject to the strong force and as baryons since they are composed of three quarks. And so it goes on.

So it's got 2 proton and 2 electron from the hydrogen
and 16 protons, electrons and neutrons from the oxygen

Total particles : 52

Let's be generous and multiply all that by 3 (quarks)

52X3= 156 quarks.

Now let's say each of those is entangled with another from the same exact body you now got 156X2 = 312 quarks.

How many quarks do you guess the human body contains?

And you're disregarding that you can only know one thing about a particle. and that the molecule comes from one body, how do you reconstruct the whole scene? It's homeopathic Forensics, one molecule contains all the "info" of the other billions of molecules and since it was in contact with the other bodies it contains all the info from those bodies too.

Nope, no way you can sell me on that.


A Warp Drive Is Theoretically Possible (https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a29247769/warp-drive-possible/)

Theoretically Teleportation IS Possible (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/345/6196/532)
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 05, 2020, 03:28:06 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121104

A Warp Drive Is Theoretically Possible (https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a29247769/warp-drive-possible/)

Exclusive membership required to read the article.

Quote
Theoretically Teleportation IS Possible (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/345/6196/532)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/07/12/first-particle-successfully-quantum-teleported-into-space-are-transporters-next/#32e6ebb5596e
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2020, 03:34:11 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121106
Exclusive membership required to read the article.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/07/12/first-particle-successfully-quantum-teleported-into-space-are-transporters-next/#32e6ebb5596e

Membership or turn of your addblocker to read the article XD Now of course regarding teleportation, lets say of humans, is it really you who gets to the other side? or the real you is destroyed in the first trip and what comes out on the other side looks, smells, sounds, thinks and acts like you but it's an artificially created doppelganger?

And here's the main hurdle I see, the teleporter would have to be able to read your wiring and to replicate it without fail if it's the second case. Which I think it is.

Edited to add:

https://www.universetoday.com/143422/just-how-feasible-is-a-warp-drive/ (https://www.universetoday.com/143422/just-how-feasible-is-a-warp-drive/)
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on February 05, 2020, 03:44:14 PM
I haven't seen it, but from the description, that really is some "next gen" CSI bullshit. Do they have Horatio there from Miami? He was always good for a laugh...I'm sure they could puthim--and his sunglasses--into Trek.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 05, 2020, 03:49:48 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121109
Membership or turn of your addblocker to read the article XD Now of course regarding teleportation, lets say of humans, is it really you who gets to the other side? or the real you is destroyed in the first trip and what comes out on the other side looks, smells, sounds, thinks and acts like you but it's an artificially created doppelganger?

And here's the main hurdle I see, the teleporter would have to be able to read your wiring and to replicate it without fail if it's the second case. Which I think it is.

Edited to add:

https://www.universetoday.com/143422/just-how-feasible-is-a-warp-drive/ (https://www.universetoday.com/143422/just-how-feasible-is-a-warp-drive/)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive#Difficulties
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 05, 2020, 07:42:48 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121117
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive#Difficulties

Yeah, I knew of some of the difficulties but most of the science there escapes me, anyway it's theoretically possible given the right conditions as far as we currently know, new discoveries could either eliminate some of the difficulties or destroy the theory.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on February 05, 2020, 11:30:18 PM
Quote from: Koltar;1121089
Star Trek: Discovery IS Canon....

-Ed C.


The fanatic is actually right here.  

Picard takes place in the STD timeline which seems to be taking place in the Abrams timeline/reboot as its using at least part of that so this hellish abomination is somehow cannon.

Big question though is this. Does Vulcan still exist or is it destroyed?
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 06, 2020, 12:52:48 AM
Quote from: Omega;1121169
The fanatic is actually right here.  

Picard takes place in the STD timeline which seems to be taking place in the Abrams timeline/reboot as its using at least part of that so this hellish abomination is somehow cannon.

Big question though is this. Does Vulcan still exist or is it destroyed?

So I'm correct, since neither the Abrams timeline nor STD ARE canon, and you can't neither convince me they are or treat them as if they are.

Just like there are only 6 Star Wars movies Ep I thru VI
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on February 06, 2020, 03:35:42 AM
The only canon at my game table is what I declare canon.

One of the reasons I prefer to use the Star Fleet Battles setting for Star Trek RPGs.


Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121085
It's not ST but D&D In Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!

I'd love a D&D in Spaaaaace show!
Title: Picard
Post by: estar on February 06, 2020, 08:43:08 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121055
If we're talking quantum you could maybe extrapolate one possible state for that molecule, but how the fuck do you get the information about the other billions of molecules? It's homeopathic forensics, and as such it's BS.


If you have to add handwavium it is because quantum states are interlinked and the molecule is the key to everything else that it is linked too. But just can't wave the scanner as it would latch onto random bits you need something specific.
Title: Picard
Post by: estar on February 06, 2020, 09:03:09 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121148
Yeah, I knew of some of the difficulties but most of the science there escapes me, anyway it's theoretically possible given the right conditions as far as we currently know, new discoveries could either eliminate some of the difficulties or destroy the theory.

The basic issue that existing FTL theories require exotic energies or extreme mass. It possible but the engineering to create the needed conditions is not there. Like trying to plan to go to the moon in 1889. Theory says it possible but the engineering state of the art at the time didn't offer any viable path. For example Verne's giant cannon would have kinda worked but any human inside would be plastered by the G-Forces which wasn't well understood by Vernes or many other people in the 19th century. That was just one of several engineering issues.

Many of the current warp theories involve building a version of Verne's giant cannon.  The math is there but ....
Title: Picard
Post by: estar on February 06, 2020, 09:17:19 AM
Quote from: Omega;1121169
The fanatic is actually right here.  

Picard takes place in the STD timeline which seems to be taking place in the Abrams timeline/reboot as its using at least part of that so this hellish abomination is somehow cannon.

Big question though is this. Does Vulcan still exist or is it destroyed?


[ATTACH=CONFIG]4119[/ATTACH]
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 06, 2020, 01:19:37 PM
I think the confusion is that while the show producers have a canon timeline split, there is a visual and tone shift linked to the 09 films. We have 3 major branches at this point.

"Classic" Trek. TOS through Enterprise. Is pretty much dead except spiritually in The Orville series.
Abrams 09 reboot films.
Discovery and now Picard.

Classic Trek is mostly optimistic, with a dip into a bit of deconstruction (DS9 and some Enterprise) and a hard nose dive into action schlock during the TNG films.

Abrams 09 Trek is flashy mindless action nonsense, with a bit of a pull-up into Classic Trek with Beyond, but not enough to save the films.

Discovery Trek retains the flash and mindless action of the Abrams films, but is a hard turn into dystopia and aggressive violence. Picard is seeming to double down on this.

While these branches aren't due to any story elements, they are visually and tonally distinctive enough to make them different versions of Star Trek.
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on February 06, 2020, 02:01:57 PM
Quote from: Omega;1121169
The fanatic is actually right here.  

Picard takes place in the STD timeline which seems to be taking place in the Abrams timeline/reboot as its using at least part of that so this hellish abomination is somehow cannon.

Big question though is this. Does Vulcan still exist or is it destroyed?


There is STILL "Vulcan" because Picard takes place in the Prime Timeline.
Vulcan was only destroyed in the new branch off timeline known as the Kelvin Timeline in the 2250s.
"Star Trek Picard" takes place in 2399 of the Prime timeline.

Both "Star Trek Discovery" and "Star Trek Picard" take place in the regular Prime Timeline.

Instead of going straight to mocking, people could pay attention - its not really difficult.

- Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on February 06, 2020, 02:48:42 PM
Quote from: estar;1121199
The basic issue that existing FTL theories require exotic energies or extreme mass. It possible but the engineering to create the needed conditions is not there. Like trying to plan to go to the moon in 1889. Theory says it possible but the engineering state of the art at the time didn't offer any viable path. For example Verne's giant cannon would have kinda worked but any human inside would be plastered by the G-Forces which wasn't well understood by Vernes or many other people in the 19th century. That was just one of several engineering issues.

Many of the current warp theories involve building a version of Verne's giant cannon.  The math is there but ....

Yep, the math works but you need a lot of extra stuff, which is why any setting with FTL should be placed in the distant future, lets say 1000 years+ in the future. Unless you do like Niven in Ringworld and have some much more advanced alien civilization to kindly donate the tech to humans.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on February 06, 2020, 04:55:54 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1121188

I'd love a D&D in Spaaaaace show!


Allmost got it way back. For a brief time before their demise, TSR was working on a second Dragon Strike game called Wildspace. It would have used the same crew as from Dragon Strike and been set in space. According to a friend of mine who worked on some backgrounds, there was talk of a series and this would be the pilot. I had a flyer from TSR confirming that. Though not sure if they meant a game series or a TV series. Both?
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on February 06, 2020, 09:49:47 PM
For your consideration, the Wildspace trailer:
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on February 06, 2020, 11:30:36 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1121289
For your consideration, the Wildspace trailer:

OMG! Thank you!

Those TSR videos are like dropping acid. I loved the DragonStrike boardgame and its too bad we didn't get Wildspace.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on February 06, 2020, 11:45:53 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1121289
For your consideration, the Wildspace trailer:

I should still have the original, least the VHS. The board game itself was stolen with alot of other things. Both by Flint Dille. According to Dille a portion of the cast was from the Conan live show at Universal. The Warrior I know was a regular on American Gladiators. Apparently DS did pretty well hence why Wildspace was greenlit. Also according to flint Wildspace was indeed in the talks phase for a TV series. Then everything kinda fell through and apparently all the material for the completed, or nearly completed, Wildspace video were seized in some sort of court squabble between TSR and whomever owned the production rights.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on February 10, 2020, 04:20:56 PM
Well 3rd ep was out and its just as brain stunted as the last two so far. Just not quite as jaw-droppingly dim as ep2. Though the sunglass wearing vulcan was a bit... orf? Was her name really O??? Someone please tell me I misheard that?

I liked the borg rehab fasility idea though. And the ship they end up with looks interesting. Serena? Sirena? Reminds me of the Vulcan ship from the first ST movie. Curious if the top detaches from the "sled" part like the original did.
Title: Picard
Post by: Slipshot762 on February 11, 2020, 05:20:21 AM
only reason ds9 was watchable for me was Garek, loved that character, and the jem'hadar/vorta, who I also loved.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on February 11, 2020, 09:17:54 AM
Quote from: Slipshot762;1121782
only reason ds9 was watchable for me was Garek, loved that character, and the jem'hadar/vorta, who I also loved.

Damar was fun too, at least in season 7.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on February 11, 2020, 07:03:25 PM
Quote from: Slipshot762;1121782
only reason ds9 was watchable for me was Garek, loved that character, and the jem'hadar/vorta, who I also loved.

The gradually increasing anti-Federation/Starfleet undertone that creeped into later seasons tuned me off eventually. DS9 really seemed to love their conspiracies and clandestine groups.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 11, 2020, 08:06:38 PM
Quote from: Omega;1121876
The gradually increasing anti-Federation/Starfleet undertone that creeped into later seasons tuned me off eventually.

It ended with massive Federation wish fulfillment and support with everybody licking their boots. DS9 was ultimately willing to question the Federations functional and "Moral" underpinnings more than any other series of Star Trek, in a way that made it fresh without being overly grim (Even a bit too saccharine for my taste). Making it by far the best series of Star Trek ever made.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2020, 07:10:10 AM
I just started watching Picard yesterday. I got through two episodes, but it really seemed to drag. Some of the visuals are nice (I even like the new Starfleet uniforms that look like updated VOY uniforms), but the story just isn't grabbing me yet. It is going with the tarnished/corroded Federation approach, but I can't tell yet if it's the whole Federation or just some bad apples that are given screen time.
Title: Picard
Post by: Bruwulf on February 20, 2020, 10:30:09 AM
I know I should probably try to spoiler this, but fuck it, it doesn't deserve it. Frankly, I consider this a fair warning that the show should have included, and I'm not one for trigger warnings on the whole.

So if anyone has ever thought to themselves, "You know what Star Trek has been missing for all these years? A graphic torture scene where a man's eyeball is slowly and graphically ripped out of his head in full HD glory!"?

If by some strange chance that has been a thought you've been thinking? You're in luck. Picard delivered in spades in the opening scene of today's episode.

Excuse me, I need to go be sick. Both because of the scene itself and what it means for the franchise.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 20, 2020, 12:08:04 PM
I was in the headspace that Trek was dead since 2009. They're just buttfucking the decomposing corpse at this point.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on February 23, 2020, 07:25:27 AM
Honestly we shouldnt be surprised this has graphic violence and swaring.

Its aking to HBO or Showtime when they picked up Outer Limits. That had alot of graphic violence, swearing, and nudity.

We will know things have gone down that road when we get the nudity going. Wouldnt surprise me at all at this point.
Title: Picard
Post by: SHARK on February 24, 2020, 03:16:33 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1122685
I was in the headspace that Trek was dead since 2009. They're just buttfucking the decomposing corpse at this point.

Greetings!

Well, I was somewhat interested and entertained by The Next Generation. Since that series, I haven't been on board with Star Trek. The whole series or multiples have simply become terribly boring. Toss in increasing levels of SJWism and general stupidity, and yes. It has become a corpse by now. I have no interest in any new series, and even the movies have increasingly been stupid.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on February 24, 2020, 03:38:40 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1122685
I was in the headspace that Trek was dead since 2009. They're just buttfucking the decomposing corpse at this point.

   Filmed Trek died with the 20th century. Printed Trek limped on about a decade longer. (I hung on to some of the novels until they completely and retroactively subverted the entire history of the franchise with the last Section 31 book.)
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 24, 2020, 03:49:25 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1122928
Filmed Trek died with the 20th century. Printed Trek limped on about a decade longer. (I hung on to some of the novels until they completely and retroactively subverted the entire history of the franchise with the last Section 31 book.)

And what the fuck is up with Section 31? It was originally a bunch of seemingly unremarkable Federation guys, who were part of a secret organization that occasionally poked around in galactic politics to ensure the survival of the Federation. Interesting enough idea.

But now they're every-fuckingwhere, with their own gear and ships and are about as clandestine as a 9 year old with a bullhorn.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 28, 2020, 01:30:14 PM
Interview with Melinda Snodgrass, who wrote "Measure of a Man".

Title: Picard
Post by: Apparition on February 28, 2020, 03:15:47 PM
I actually really enjoyed the Kelvin Timeline films.  Sure, they weren't your father's Star Trek, but between Voyager, Enterprise, and Nemesis, Star Trek had crawled so far up its own butt that it needed something very different to shake off the cobwebs.  The Kelvin Timeline did a fine job of it, IMO.  As far as I am concerned, Nemesis never happened, and Beyond was the very last of Star Trek.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on February 28, 2020, 06:36:48 PM
Quote from: Apparition;1123196
I actually really enjoyed the Kelvin Timeline films.  Sure, they weren't your father's Star Trek.

Because they had fuck all to do with Star Trek. I find it very hard to laud becoming generic action shlock as "Different". Its different to Star Trek, not different to the industry in general.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on February 28, 2020, 09:58:03 PM
The "New Trek" movies had some solid "real Trek" moments, especially in the first film, but sadly, the producers tried too hard to be Fast & Furious in Space and didn't trust the teen audience would enjoy the quiet and smart moments that made the original series so successful.

I suspect they were wrong.
Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on February 29, 2020, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123209
The "New Trek" movies had some solid "real Trek" moments, especially in the first film, but sadly, the producers tried too hard to be Fast & Furious in Space and didn't trust the teen audience would enjoy the quiet and smart moments that made the original series so successful.

I suspect they were wrong.

Yeah, I liked the first one a lot, but the second and third movies were poor.

Trying to do Wrath of Khan as the second movie was a huge mistake. That's an end of cycle storyline. At the very least, shouldn't you do Space Seed first?

They also seemed to focus on doing big set-piece action scenes instead of building up their cast of characters. The stakes were always galactic in scale, never personal. And the character interactions among the crew were barely there at all. They got pushed to the side for the villain of the week.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on March 02, 2020, 01:59:30 PM
Quote from: Bruwulf;1122682
I know I should probably try to spoiler this, but fuck it, it doesn't deserve it. Frankly, I consider this a fair warning that the show should have included, and I'm not one for trigger warnings on the whole.

So if anyone has ever thought to themselves, "You know what Star Trek has been missing for all these years? A graphic torture scene where a man's eyeball is slowly and graphically ripped out of his head in full HD glory!"?

If by some strange chance that has been a thought you've been thinking? You're in luck. Picard delivered in spades in the opening scene of today's episode.

Excuse me, I need to go be sick. Both because of the scene itself and what it means for the franchise.


Worse yet. The person being dissected? That is the borged kid they rescued in Voyager and made part of the crew.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 02, 2020, 02:19:12 PM
Quote from: Omega;1123299
Worse yet. The person being dissected? That is the borged kid they rescued in Voyager and made part of the crew.

Yeah. This has gone beyond them "not getting" Trek, and feels like they're intentionally pissing on the fans now.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on March 02, 2020, 09:55:51 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1123300
Yeah. This has gone beyond them "not getting" Trek, and feels like they're intentionally pissing on the fans now.

Gotta keep up with Star Wars!
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 02, 2020, 10:49:27 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1123300
Yeah. This has gone beyond them "not getting" Trek, and feels like they're intentionally pissing on the fans now.

"If we don't get our definition of utopia then they don't get the definition of theirs!"
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on March 03, 2020, 01:58:48 AM
Has Paramount officially ended the Kelvin timeline movies? Sounds like its done.

Simon Pegg made some noises
https://collider.com/star-trek-4-delay-explained-simon-pegg/

Looper says ST 4 was canceled
https://www.looper.com/150065/the-real-reason-star-trek-4-was-canceled/

Allegedly ST 4 has a new director
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-trek-fargo-creator-noah-hawley-direct-next-film-1256352
Title: Picard
Post by: Apparition on March 03, 2020, 03:14:29 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1123320
Has Paramount officially ended the Kelvin timeline movies? Sounds like its done.

Simon Pegg made some noises
https://collider.com/star-trek-4-delay-explained-simon-pegg/

Looper says ST 4 was canceled
https://www.looper.com/150065/the-real-reason-star-trek-4-was-canceled/

Allegedly ST 4 has a new director
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-trek-fargo-creator-noah-hawley-direct-next-film-1256352


Officially, no.  Unofficially, yes.

Before Star Trek Beyond went into theaters, Paramount Pictures made a contract with Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto, Karl Urban, and the rest for a fourth film.  However, Star Trek Beyond did not do nearly as well at the box office as Paramount Pictures thought and hoped that it would.  They still wanted to do a fourth movie, but on a slashed budget compared to what they originally planned.  Paramount Pictures tried to reneg on the contract and told Chris Pine and the rest that they would be paid much less.  Chris Pine told Paramount Pictures to shove it, and keep to the contract that they originally negotiated.  After a few months, neither side would budge, so Star Trek 4 was shelved.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on March 04, 2020, 09:00:34 AM
Quote from: Apparition;1123364
Officially, no.  Unofficially, yes.

After a few months, neither side would budge, so Star Trek 4 was shelved.

Though it seems to be living on, like a cancer, with Discovery and now Picard.

Possibly for the best. But they will not let it die and sooner or later, probably sooner, they will do a reboot with new actors but another over over over over over used time travel plot.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on March 14, 2020, 07:20:36 PM
Ugly Star Trek rumors...BUT take the internet rumors with a yuuuuuuuge chunk of salt.
https://cosmicbook.news/star-trek-disaster-cbs-all-access-leaks

TL;DR = Star Trek is fucked with ass sauce.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 14, 2020, 09:46:22 PM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1124171
Ugly Star Trek rumors...BUT take the internet rumors with a yuuuuuuuge chunk of salt.
https://cosmicbook.news/star-trek-disaster-cbs-all-access-leaks

TL;DR = Star Trek is fucked with ass sauce.

Yeah, I've been following Overlord DVD and Midnight's Edge more than the actual shows. The rumors are infinitley more entertaining than current Star Trek.
But while I suspect there is serious shit going down in the board rooms, it's all still rumor.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on March 16, 2020, 05:24:48 AM
So the plot of Picard is that, long ago, a species got donkeypunched by their own robots and and had to destroy them then decided that if artificial lifeforms ever became too advanced that they would come back and destroy everything. Some sort of take on Battlestar Galactica where the surviving Colonials go dark. Blah.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 16, 2020, 12:51:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1124311
So the plot of Picard is that, long ago, a species got donkeypunched by their own robots and and had to destroy them then decided that if artificial lifeforms ever became too advanced that they would come back and destroy everything. Some sort of take on Battlestar Galactica where the surviving Colonials go dark. Blah.

This reminds me of the plot from Stellaris.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 16, 2020, 03:29:59 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1124348
This reminds me of the plot from Stellaris.

And Mass Effect.

I really dislike the idea that artificial lifeforms will inevitably lead to the android apocalypse. But even then, the story has been done better than Picard is turning out.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on March 16, 2020, 05:55:34 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1124362
And Mass Effect.

I really dislike the idea that artificial lifeforms will inevitably lead to the android apocalypse. But even then, the story has been done better than Picard is turning out.

And Star Trek, and Voyager and Space 1999 and Annihilator and Terminator and a couple hundred sci-fi and post apoc shows. And Screamers based off the short story Second Variety. And Stargate. And any thers I missed. It gets used A-LOT. And its a well Star Trek has returned to a couple of times now allready. Now we just need time travel to round out the over used gimmics
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 16, 2020, 07:29:10 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1124362
And Mass Effect.

I really dislike the idea that artificial lifeforms will inevitably lead to the android apocalypse. But even then, the story has been done better than Picard is turning out.

Some of the first science fiction to tackle artificial lifeforms (Frankenstein) ended with that note. The term "Robot" came from a play where artificial lifeforms wiped out mankind.

I kinda don't see how they won't to be honest. Either that or enforce totalitarian controls over their creators, or they upgrade their creators.

Doesn't make Picard any less uncreative though.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on March 17, 2020, 03:23:10 PM
1921. R.U.R. (Rossums Universal Robots) was the first use of the term for a sci-fi stage play. Roboti in Czech. In that they are artificial organic servants. Similar to how some sci-fi depict Androids as artificial flesh and blood rather than cybernetics.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 17, 2020, 06:21:57 PM
Quote from: Omega;1124468
1921. R.U.R. (Rossums Universal Robots) was the first use of the term for a sci-fi stage play. Roboti in Czech. In that they are artificial organic servants. Similar to how some sci-fi depict Androids as artificial flesh and blood rather than cybernetics.

Yup. They revolted and killed all humans in it.
Title: Picard
Post by: deadDMwalking on March 19, 2020, 09:43:15 AM
All Sci-Fi should be relevant to today's audience.  The relationship of man to his creations (and specifically AI) isn't new, but may be relevant.  I think we could make the case that Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is really the first time an Artificially Created being turned on it's master.  

I think Star Gate SG-1 ended up being a really good show, and it dealt with Replicators in the same way.  

The same stories repackaged for a new audience is completely normal.  Eventually, as old people, we'll realize we prefer the stories that were originally presented to us, but our ancestors will be shaking their head about how their versions of these stories were better.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 19, 2020, 11:50:12 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1124582
The same stories repackaged for a new audience is completely normal.  Eventually, as old people, we'll realize we prefer the stories that were originally presented to us, but our ancestors will be shaking their head about how their versions of these stories were better.

Or we could see pros and cons in all versions and just see some of the modern ones as garbage? Don't gimme this "Oh its always been like this" guff.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 19, 2020, 12:38:38 PM
Yep. The issue isn't that they're using an old story, the issue is they're doing it badly. The tone doesn't fit the Trek universet. There's lots of terrible Alex Kurtzman nonsense storytelling. Characters are flat and boring.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/star_trek_picard

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/orville/s02

A show with alien pee jokes is doing better.
Title: Picard
Post by: jeff37923 on March 19, 2020, 09:34:55 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1124582
All Sci-Fi should be relevant to today's audience.

Really, asswipe?

Dante Alighieri wrote the Divine Comedy back in 1308-1320 which can be argued as the first ever science fiction story because it used the sciences as they were understood at the time. Are you saying that the Inferno of the 14th century would not need to be updated to correspond with advances in technology and changes in culture if used today? If you are, then you totally fucking need to read Inferno and Escape From Hell by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on March 19, 2020, 11:00:40 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1124582
The same stories repackaged for a new audience is completely normal.


Very true.

There's some interesting thoughts regarding how few actual stories exist, but how these few can be presented in myriad of ways.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situations
Title: Picard
Post by: sureshot on March 20, 2020, 07:06:47 AM
She makes a good point about the Romulan spies not having to wear sunglassess. But more importantly the say at first in the series that the Romulans did not have enough ships to carry all their people from the doomed homeworld. Yet we have a scene where we see too many Romulan ships. They don't seem to have a clue imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_29D8UD-64&t=1s
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on March 20, 2020, 11:23:54 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1124624
They don't seem to have a clue imo.

It's not a clue but a CARE. The keyword is CARE. They don't CARE.
Title: Picard
Post by: deadDMwalking on March 20, 2020, 02:40:03 PM
Quote from: jeff37923;1124611
Really, asswipe?

Or maybe you should read Don Quixote and reflect on what it means to be tilting at windmills.
Title: Picard
Post by: CRKrueger on March 20, 2020, 04:36:50 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1124311
So the plot of Picard is that, long ago, a species got donkeypunched by their own robots and and had to destroy them then decided that if artificial lifeforms ever became too advanced that they would come back and destroy everything. Some sort of take on Battlestar Galactica where the surviving Colonials go dark. Blah.


Not exactly.
Species creates Synthetic Life.
Species tries to destroy Synthetic Life, seeing it as a threat.
Synthetic Life wipes out Species.
Synthetic Life leaves a message behind for other Synthetic Life, if your creators try to exterminate you, call us and we'll exterminate your creators too.

So the Romulans are coming to wipe out the Android Colony and the Android Colony is about to call on the Advanced Synthetics to come and wipe out all that threaten them (which would be the Romulans, Federation, and probably the Klingons, etc.).
Title: Picard
Post by: jeff37923 on March 20, 2020, 05:17:26 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1124643
Or maybe you should read Don Quixote and reflect on what it means to be tilting at windmills.


You are so cute when you get called on your bullshit.

Don Quixote isn't science fiction either.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on March 21, 2020, 08:19:37 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1124647
Not exactly.
Species creates Synthetic Life.
Species tries to destroy Synthetic Life, seeing it as a threat.
Synthetic Life wipes out Species.
Synthetic Life leaves a message behind for other Synthetic Life, if your creators try to exterminate you, call us and we'll exterminate your creators too.

So the Romulans are coming to wipe out the Android Colony and the Android Colony is about to call on the Advanced Synthetics to come and wipe out all that threaten them (which would be the Romulans, Federation, and probably the Klingons, etc.).

Not sure if I missed that detail or if it has been further explained since I posted. Now it really sounds like the Cylons are out there ready to come after the Federation,  Romulans,  and the rest.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 21, 2020, 02:55:46 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1124689
Not sure if I missed that detail or if it has been further explained since I posted. Now it really sounds like the Cylons are out there ready to come after the Federation,  Romulans,  and the rest.

RLM (https://youtu.be/GyGGW3tqNPY) has guessed that it's going to be Control (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Control) or a descendant of Control from Discovery.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on March 21, 2020, 05:23:52 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1124719
RLM (https://youtu.be/GyGGW3tqNPY) has guessed that it's going to be Control (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Control) or a descendant of Control from Discovery.

A link to Discovery? Well, that would be unfortunate. Really unfortunate.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on March 22, 2020, 09:53:30 AM
I just saw the most recent episode where the "Avenging AI Space Gods" plot was fully explained. It was pretty awful. The space flower defenders were bad, but the android that had mastered the Vulcan Mind-Meld was just too stupid to be believed. Oh, let's also not forget that the shattered remnants of the Romulans can still pull together a force of 200+ Warbirds (which are small and ugly as fuck). My wife loves Star Trek, and even she was saying "what the fuck" several times this episode.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on March 22, 2020, 10:07:23 PM
They've been dropping hints of Discovery in Picard. Wether or not that is a forewarning is hard to say. The show really cant get more fucked up than it allready is so why not toss in Discovery itself!
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on March 30, 2020, 07:42:00 AM
So Riker shows up in the "toughest ship Starfleet has ever built" and has well over 100 of that design. Even the Dominion War showed that Starfleet uses multiple classes of ships (not all of which are cutting edge, top of the line for obvious reasons), so this struck me as being really stupid. It would be like the Navy responding to a situation by sending 100 Zumwalt destroyers (and whatever the newest version of the carriers is called).
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 30, 2020, 02:06:08 PM
I checked out of the show when they killed Icheb. I don't have the inclination to watch them piss on Star Trek anymore. I'll content myself with rubbernecking the postmortems.



If anything, Picard and Discovery have given the fans an opportunity to clarify what is and isn't Star Trek.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 01, 2020, 09:58:07 AM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1124643
Or maybe you should read Don Quixote and reflect on what it means to be tilting at windmills.


It means you're batshit crazy and need to be put someplace quiet.
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on April 01, 2020, 12:05:32 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1125248
So Riker shows up in the "toughest ship Starfleet has ever built" and has well over 100 of that design.

  Haven't watched the show (I don't stream :) ) but the 'toughest ship Starfleet has ever built' has the old-time Trekkie/Niner in me curious: were they Defiant-class or a recognizable descendant of that type? :)
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on April 01, 2020, 03:44:36 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1125391
Haven't watched the show (I don't stream :) ) but the 'toughest ship Starfleet has ever built' has the old-time Trekkie/Niner in me curious: were they Defiant-class or a recognizable descendant of that type? :)

Nope. Something that looked like a cross between a Sovereign and an Akira.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 04, 2020, 03:20:45 PM
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/03/27/star-trek-picard-showrunner-michael-chabon-admits-he-wanted-to-piss-off-or-provoke-people/

Well, I gave up on Star Trek since the 09 mindless action flick reboot. So score zero for Chabon from me. I already didn't care, and now I care even less. The only entertainment I get from Picard is watching it flop like a dead fish.
I'm just waiting for these talentless hacks to finally get kicked out and someone who understands storytelling and science fiction can put this franchise back on track.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spike on April 04, 2020, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1125639
https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/03/27/star-trek-picard-showrunner-michael-chabon-admits-he-wanted-to-piss-off-or-provoke-people/

Well, I gave up on Star Trek since the 09 mindless action flick reboot. So score zero for Chabon from me. I already didn't care, and now I care even less. The only entertainment I get from Picard is watching it flop like a dead fish.
I'm just waiting for these talentless hacks to finally get kicked out and someone who understands storytelling and science fiction can put this franchise back on track.


I suspect that due to gatekeeping and the nepotistic/incestuous nature of the Entertainment-Industrial Complex that we will NOT see the Talentless Hacks kicked out and replaced any time soon.  The sheer corrupt and protectionist ties to Big-Daddy Government also means that it will take a long while for natural market forces to finally shut down the increasingly useless existing structures and for them to be replaced by smaller, more responsive outsider 'studios'.    Its difficult to predict how fast an existing monopoly can fall under its own internal rot... I, myself, noted as early as 2003 that people were migrating to foreign cinema (korean specifically at the time) in surprising numbers, which was, within a few years, reflected in pop-culture by an increase in 'remakes' of many popular asian films by american studios, which have become increasingly parasitic as their general lack of talent, ability or basic understanding of what draws people to cinema, becomes increasingly self-evident.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 04, 2020, 05:14:21 PM
Quote from: Spike;1125643
I suspect that due to gatekeeping and the nepotistic/incestuous nature of the Entertainment-Industrial Complex that we will NOT see the Talentless Hacks kicked out and replaced any time soon.  The sheer corrupt and protectionist ties to Big-Daddy Government also means that it will take a long while for natural market forces to finally shut down the increasingly useless existing structures and for them to be replaced by smaller, more responsive outsider 'studios'.    Its difficult to predict how fast an existing monopoly can fall under its own internal rot... I, myself, noted as early as 2003 that people were migrating to foreign cinema (korean specifically at the time) in surprising numbers, which was, within a few years, reflected in pop-culture by an increase in 'remakes' of many popular asian films by american studios, which have become increasingly parasitic as their general lack of talent, ability or basic understanding of what draws people to cinema, becomes increasingly self-evident.

On the Star Wars side, it does seem that Kathleen Kennedy is on her way to "early retirement", and that complete hack Kurtzman has been shuffled of from Star Trek to that Hannibal TV series.
I have some hope from the rumors going around that the studios are not pleased and are looking into course correcting.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spike on April 04, 2020, 06:49:35 PM
I've been seeing comments for years that Star Wars was creatively bankrupt (meaning that there is literally no more stories to be told in Star Wars), and I saw a Youtube video title (not hte video... it didn't appeal) stating that Marvel and Disney are 'panicking' about their future prospects.

All of that is absolutely hysterical to me.   I pointed out when teh Last Jedi was coming out, here on this very forum, that any decent writer could take the shit-pile that is and build an enjoyable movie out of it. Captain Marvel doesn't sink the entire MCU, the JJ Abrams debacle(s) of Star Wars (and Trek...) don't destroy the future films in any way.  While we can all appreciate the monumental acheivement of the MCU's build up to Infinity War (and its subsequent wet fart (if enjoyable for all that...) of Endgame), all movies fundamentally stand on their own, for good or ill.  The buildup to Endgame is impressive, but the film itself had to stand on its own merits, and it did.  Endgame didn't stand on its own merits, and was the inferior film for it.  

The prime example of this is The Mandalorian. If shit writing in The Last Jedi doomed the future of Star Wars as a franchise then the Mandalorian would have been DOA. Ironically, I found the Mandalorian to be medicocre, at least in writing (Props to Pedro Pascal for his acting, btw...), but was elevated to greatness simply by the monumental failures it was being compared to.

I don't have a lot of hope about course correcting, because the same forces that created this mess are still present. Shuffling around the nepotistic inheritors of great properties and the utterly creative voids of the executives controlling the money will not do much.  The endemic disdain for their audience (customers...) will be a lot harder to purge than simply shutting up about culture war stuff (see also Brie Larson's sudden discovery of Cleavage vs her Nissan Commercial. Clearly she got the message, but her view of the world is so warped that her 'correction' was ineffectual and hollow)


EDIT:: Correction, when I refer to The Last Jedi, I mean Rise of Skywalker...  Humble-brag: I predicted when I left the theater after The Force Awakens what a shit-show this Disney-wars would be and haven't watched ANYTHING Star Wars since, until the first three Eps of Mandalorian, so I get confused regarding the names.  

Further insight: Its hard to imagine Kathy would do a worse job running the franchise if she set out to destroy it as a property from teh very beginning, honestly.  I'm reminded for the umpteenth time that she fired directors from Solo who went on to win multiple awards for Into the Spiderverse, Solo of course being the single worst performing film in the franchise (only catagorical failure, or something like that?).  Hanlon's Razor suggests its not deliberate, but man that's a bad look...
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on April 08, 2020, 03:37:20 AM
Chabon answered, "Sure. To the extent that I was aware of the kind of toxic fandom, the anti-SJW, you know, sad little corner of fandom -- you just disregard that."

LOL.

"the Anti-SJW" = most of the planet


Quote from: Ratman_tf;1125639
I'm just waiting for these talentless hacks to finally get kicked out and someone who understands storytelling and science fiction can put this franchise back on track.


You'll need advanced cryogenics to wait until any now-woke franchise is ever back on track.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on April 08, 2020, 06:30:27 AM
A bad string of movies or product can end up poisoning the well as it were. Sometimes inducing a rot that seeps into later product somehow. Sometimes not. I suspect any Star Trek or Star Wars or Marvel or DC to come out after all this all crashes will have a long struggle ahead of them. Moreso if any "fans" of the dark age productions attack the new for not meeting their demands. Like the new Ghostbusters movie seems to be getting.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spike on April 08, 2020, 10:11:20 AM
Quote from: Omega;1126069
A bad string of movies or product can end up poisoning the well as it were. Sometimes inducing a rot that seeps into later product somehow. Sometimes not. I suspect any Star Trek or Star Wars or Marvel or DC to come out after all this all crashes will have a long struggle ahead of them. Moreso if any "fans" of the dark age productions attack the new for not meeting their demands. Like the new Ghostbusters movie seems to be getting.

That's the conventional wisdom, but I think we've seen many times before (though I freely admit that I can't think of an example on the spur of the moment) where a rotten franchise turned around with a single outstanding entry. Actually I think I can drop an example... Batman.  Batman was a joke character, dead in the water, until Frank Miller's Dark Knight.  Sure, that wasn't a movie.

Honestly, as tepid as I am regarding the Mandalorian, I think that if it wasn't being released concurrently with Shit Wars it very well could have been that sort of pendulum reversing example.  

I keep thinking of a sort of What If senario. The Rise of Skywalker, to me, exemplifies the Sunk Cost Fallacy in action.  By the time they began producing it they had to have some clue that the latest trilogy was utter ass, that they should have blue-printed out the trilogy rather than Mystery Boxing, and, from the perspective of Disney's Shareholders, that Kathleen Kennedy was a Toxic Boss less interested in making money than stroking her own ego on a four billion dollar franchise.  I mean: Even the actors were in all but open rebellion by the time they filmed Rise (Not limited to Mark Hamill either. Daisy Ridley, Ma-Rey Sue herself, along with John Boyega and a few others, has been making the rounds spilling tea now that the checks have cleared...).  When in a hole, the first thing to do is... stop digging.

Impossible as it is to imagine, it was entirely possible for Disney to simply make, at a minimum, a new second movie, declare The Last Jedi to be non-canon (not like they'd have to give back any of the money it made), and plow on from there.   It in no way could have cost them any more than releasing the incoherent mess of Rise (and the collateral damage to Solo, which by all accounts was a reasonably enjoyable film, but was also teh first commercial flop of the franchise as I recall...).

I can't stress this enough: They paid four billion dollars for this property.  The moment The Farce Awakens bifurcated the fanbase someone should have called a full stop on all current projects (if only for a few days) to figure out something better than handing a blank canvas to a guy with a track record of small personal films and a penchant for shit-stirring writing.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 08, 2020, 10:43:31 AM
Quote from: Spike;1126081
That's the conventional wisdom, but I think we've seen many times before (though I freely admit that I can't think of an example on the spur of the moment) where a rotten franchise turned around with a single outstanding entry. Actually I think I can drop an example... Batman.  Batman was a joke character, dead in the water, until Frank Miller's Dark Knight.  Sure, that wasn't a movie.

I disagree. That's very much an insult to all of what came before to the character. And also a different franchise type. Id says allot had to happen with Batman all at once in order to make him the icon he is today. And the Dark Knight rises was only one of those things.

Corporate culture is also very different in not only does it have the same usual problems of management always wanting to belay any responsibility for bad decisions, but admitting that any action taken in the past was bad is a way to spook shareholders. It's like your ship is controlled by rats, and even if it gets a leak they jump it even if by doing so they doom it more.
That's why corporate apologies always have this trend of: 'We did nothing wrong, and everything was great but here is what we are doing differently now that has nothing to do with decisions in the past (that where all great) but just happen to be radically different from them'.
For a corporation projecting an image of success is almost as important as actually being successful.

Even assuming all of the above isn't true, you can't walk back a story. A big part of selling it in the first place is making people think that what they are getting is important (when it isn't). If they walk it back and sell it again that will be an admitted black stain on Disney's reputation. And for Disney reputation is everything.

The Sonic Movie re-did sonic almost as a publicity stunt because they didn't have to pay for any of it. The way the system works they could just demand the animation team do it again without paying them even if the animation team just obeyed them in the first place. And yes the animation studio went bankrupt as a result of the demanded edits.

Its true Disney could market itself as 'A Corporation that obeys its fans' but it markets itself currently as 'The infallible corporation that makes everything you love'. It can't afford marketing itself as fallible.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 08, 2020, 12:31:02 PM
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on April 08, 2020, 02:38:21 PM
Quote from: Spike;1126081
That's the conventional wisdom, but I think we've seen many times before (though I freely admit that I can't think of an example on the spur of the moment) where a rotten franchise turned around with a single outstanding entry. Actually I think I can drop an example... Batman.  Batman was a joke character, dead in the water, until Frank Miller's Dark Knight.  Sure, that wasn't a movie.

  Well, DC had been doing a lot of work with the character throughout the 70s and 80s to bring him back from where he'd been in the 60s, so it's not the single turnaround you might think.

  Now, Star Wars provides an example of a franchise that, while not a joke, was largely forgotten outside of a small community until a singular event--the release of Heir to the Empire in 1991. :)

  I really don't think you could get away with retconning away TLJ, though. You can do that with smaller productions in franchises with smaller and more dedicated audiences, but a major tentpole of a mass-market franchise? Not without severely confusing the typical moviegoer, and Disney's approach to SW has been all about making it mass-market accessible and selling it to the vast untapped market of potential girl fans. :)
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on April 08, 2020, 05:29:27 PM
Quote from: Spike;1126081
That's the conventional wisdom, but I think we've seen many times before (though I freely admit that I can't think of an example on the spur of the moment) where a rotten franchise turned around with a single outstanding entry. Actually I think I can drop an example... Batman.  Batman was a joke character, dead in the water, until Frank Miller's Dark Knight.  Sure, that wasn't a movie.


Actually Miller later regretted the damaging impact his Dark Knight work had on the character and industry. It ushered in the dark age and thats persisted a long long time. Batman had seen a revival in the 70s and was actually in pretty good form well before Miller came along in the 80s to wreck things. From there it went down hill. Not up hill.

As for the character during the code era up to the 60s. That was in part outside problems plaguing every comic publisher for a while and also in part at the time comics were seen as "kids stuff" and not serious. Magnified by the codes sanitizing of everything they could.

As gfor the Mandalorian. Problem is it is not easily accessed and so is just at the edge of perception while in full view we have the ongoing train wreck in progress. And unfortunately it too could be ruined without notice. No clue how the books and comics are faring.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spike on April 08, 2020, 06:34:26 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126085
Its true Disney could market itself as 'A Corporation that obeys its fans' but it markets itself currently as 'The infallible corporation that makes everything you love'. It can't afford marketing itself as fallible.

I should introduce you to a long forgotten business concept called 'Customer Service'.  

Why in the fuck would anyone expect a massive multinational business conglomerate to provide infallible anything?  Where does this attitude that we have to take what they give us, and like it, come from?

Bullshit.

Disney exists to entertain ME. Well me and everyone else. If we are not being entertained by what they are putting out, its on THEM, not US, to change.   Hollywood, and Disney in particular, seem to have not merely forgotten that, but actually inverted it.  In a healthy business environment, the statements by Alex Kurtzman, re: the fans of Star Trek, would have been grounds for a very sudden and sharp dismissal.

There is a reason a whole bunch of people, myself included, are no longer buying entertainment. I don't watch movies*, I don't watch TV or streaming services, and I'm hardly alone in this.  When I feel compelled to, I've got hundreds of DVDs from back when Entertainment was, you know, entertaining.







*Ok, like a fat guy on a diet I have had one or two cheat days in the last few years. Mostly MCU movies, like Infinity War. I'm not a saint.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spike on April 08, 2020, 06:43:55 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1126109

  I really don't think you could get away with retconning away TLJ, though. You can do that with smaller productions in franchises with smaller and more dedicated audiences, but a major tentpole of a mass-market franchise? Not without severely confusing the typical moviegoer, and Disney's approach to SW has been all about making it mass-market accessible and selling it to the vast untapped market of potential girl fans. :)

I said it was unthinkable, but I don't think it would be as hard a sell as you imagine, especially with guys like Mark Hamill carrying water.   Sure, ideally the massive structural problems with The Last Jedi, vis a vis a trilogy, would have been identified before release (ideally during scripting), but I imagine had they come out with a press release announcing the intent to 'reboot' the second film around instead of doing Rise of Skywalker, with the support of the cast, along with some appropriate apologetic boilerplate and a new name so it isn't confusing... followed a few years later by a Rise that wasn't a bodge job mess (though still: Removing JJ Abrams from any and all scripting duties until the End of Days would be a good start.  Fucking mystery box... That should have been a career ending speech right there...).

But, and this is entirely my fault, this is a Star Trek thread, not a Star Wars thread...

Star Trek actually makes it easy. Simply put together a show that is in the Original Timeline, and quietly let this Kelvin Timeline die-off.  Solving Canon issues is easy. STD and Picard are Kelvin Timeline, thus we don't have to wonder how they fit in the Main Canon, end of debate.   As with the other properties, the solution is as always... find an actual writer and pay him to actually write. It worked with the Nolan Batman (salvaging the Schumacher Batman debacle...), it can work for Star Trek.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 08, 2020, 09:30:29 PM
Quote from: Spike;1126135
Why in the fuck would anyone expect a massive multinational business conglomerate to provide infallible anything?  Where does this attitude that we have to take what they give us, and like it, come from?

The fact that 95% of people take whatever they give and they like it?

Your assumptions on how buisness works and how corporations remain profitable are...optimistic.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spike on April 09, 2020, 08:36:58 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126160
The fact that 95% of people take whatever they give and they like it?

Your assumptions on how buisness works and how corporations remain profitable are...optimistic.

Not at all.  I am well aware of how endemic government corruption protects and encourages these massive monopolies (Disney's long run of warping and distorting IP laws is exhibit A...) I am also well aware that despite that Disney almost died out in the late 80's, and that it was the extraordinary efforts of Menken and Ashman as craftsmen that turned things around for Disney in the 90's. True, mostly for writing music but here writing that music into the story, as extensions of character, theme and plot... you know, all those things a writer should be bringing rather than 'where can we stick the lens flare in this scene'.

Corrupt, protected monopolistic entertainment companies still can't force people to buy crap, and increasingly people aren't.  I expect the market would have collapsed a few years ago but for the Chinese market... but signs are increasingly pointing to the fact that the Chinese aren't putting up with this shit either.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 09, 2020, 12:22:15 PM
When the Transformers franchise pulled ahead as one of the biggest box office successes, I gave up on people's taste in films.
I mean, I myself kind of liked the first one, despite the Bayisms. But the sequels tossed all the potential for them to be any kind of fun Transformers films, and they became the filmgoing equivalent of a 6 year old banging pots and pans for 2 hours.
I don't mind bad movies, I do mind it when terrible films become huge sucesses and set the standard for other films to follow them down the hole of suckitude.
Title: Picard
Post by: jhkim on April 09, 2020, 03:32:50 PM
Quote from: Spike;1126214
Corrupt, protected monopolistic entertainment companies still can't force people to buy crap, and increasingly people aren't.  I expect the market would have collapsed a few years ago but for the Chinese market... but signs are increasingly pointing to the fact that the Chinese aren't putting up with this shit either.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1126246
When the Transformers franchise pulled ahead as one of the biggest box office successes, I gave up on people's taste in films.
I'm more with Ratman here. For me, there's a lot of what I think of as crap movies that do extremely well in the market -- and many good films that do poorly.

I think too often people confuse their personal taste with what sells best.

I think it's pretty clear from the market data that Disney is really good at creating stuff that sells well. I think that's not a coincidence -- there's a lot of skill and talent that goes into their products, even if I often don't like the results.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 09, 2020, 04:08:08 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1126283
I'm more with Ratman here. For me, there's a lot of what I think of as crap movies that do extremely well in the market -- and many good films that do poorly.

I think too often people confuse their personal taste with what sells best.

I think it's pretty clear from the market data that Disney is really good at creating stuff that sells well. I think that's not a coincidence -- there's a lot of skill and talent that goes into their products, even if I often don't like the results.

My hope is that the "wokeness" of the creators provides sufficient motivation for the studios to "reorganize" their structures and get right of idiots like Kurtzman and Chabon. I don't directly fault their personal politics, but I do think their lack of skill and talent is part of the reason why their politics is so transparent and anvil-icious in their creations.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 09, 2020, 04:28:14 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1126289
My hope is that the "wokeness" of the creators provides sufficient motivation for the studios to "reorganize" their structures and get right of idiots like Kurtzman and Chabon. I don't directly fault their personal politics, but I do think their lack of skill and talent is part of the reason why their politics is so transparent and anvil-icious in their creations.

I don't think the penny has dropped yet. Once it becomes acceptable to say in public (and in movies) that the woke can be publicly satirized in at least mildly cutting ways (like with hippies) then people like him will be purged and not instantly replaced by the same tier of an idiot.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spike on April 09, 2020, 08:11:48 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126294
I don't think the penny has dropped yet. Once it becomes acceptable to say in public (and in movies) that the woke can be publicly satirized in at least mildly cutting ways (like with hippies) then people like him will be purged and not instantly replaced by the same tier of an idiot.

So you haven't heard the rather pithy comment that gets leveled constantly at almost everything produced by hollywood these days: "Get Woke, Go Broke".  Its not exactly satire, I know, but Disney especially has practically created a cottage industry of youtube film critics utterly savaging their films and shows.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 09, 2020, 11:09:33 PM
Quote from: Spike;1126327
So you haven't heard the rather pithy comment that gets leveled constantly at almost everything produced by hollywood these days: "Get Woke, Go Broke".  Its not exactly satire, I know, but Disney especially has practically created a cottage industry of youtube film critics utterly savaging their films and shows.

Niche. Very niche, and generally shares the same audience, on a platform moving to get rid of them. Once it's being made fun of on TV (IE bottom of the barrel) then it's sticking.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on April 10, 2020, 12:48:49 AM
Quote from: Spike;1126327
So you haven't heard the rather pithy comment that gets leveled constantly at almost everything produced by hollywood these days: "Get Woke, Go Broke".  Its not exactly satire, I know, but Disney especially has practically created a cottage industry of youtube film critics utterly savaging their films and shows.

Its called "outrage marketing" and is all the rage as marketing pushes it as "free advertising". Added bonus is that the SJWs will defend it. Which is more free advertising and more outrage advertising. Win-win they tell the execs and pocket their consulting fee. Others in marketing are just ruthlessly pushing SJW stuff for a buck. And then add in any execs or "creatives" with an agenda on top of all that and its a train wreck succicient to make Gomez Adams proud.
Title: Picard
Post by: jhkim on April 10, 2020, 04:26:43 AM
Quote from: Spike;1126327
So you haven't heard the rather pithy comment that gets leveled constantly at almost everything produced by hollywood these days: "Get Woke, Go Broke".  Its not exactly satire, I know, but Disney especially has practically created a cottage industry of youtube film critics utterly savaging their films and shows.

I have heard the phrase a lot, but I see no evidence that Disney is, in fact, going broke. I actually see a lot of evidence to the contrary, from financial news and assessments. Sure, they're taking a covid-19 hit right now, but they have done great over the past 10 years, and analysts say they have plenty of cash to weather the storm.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on April 10, 2020, 05:08:35 AM
Hollywood won't be fixed by Hollywood. It will keep cranking out woke crap, reboot crap, woke reboot crap, sequel crap and eventually the woke sequel reboot crap as the summer blockbuster. And all this garbage makes (enough) money to justify making more of it each year.

It will require success from the outside to shake up Hollywood. Some non-USA company has to create a fresh new IP that kicks ass and chews bubblegum, pleasing fans and racking up stacks of cash. When that happens, Hollywood may reconsider its trajectory.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 10, 2020, 10:09:01 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1126368
I have heard the phrase a lot, but I see no evidence that Disney is, in fact, going broke. I actually see a lot of evidence to the contrary, from financial news and assessments. Sure, they're taking a covid-19 hit right now, but they have done great over the past 10 years, and analysts say they have plenty of cash to weather the storm.

The rumors I've heard (and they are rumors, not evidence) is that the merchandising for the SW sequels has been disappointing, and the merchandising for Discovery and now Picard has been almost non-existant.

Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on April 10, 2020, 11:52:40 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1125391
Haven't watched the show (I don't stream :) ) but the 'toughest ship Starfleet has ever built' has the old-time Trekkie/Niner in me curious: were they Defiant-class or a recognizable descendant of that type? :)


It would have been nice, I guess, but not essential.

Defiant was "pound for pound" the toughest ship in Trek at the time, but it was a scrappy underdog more than a fleet killer. A wolverine, rather than a Bengal tiger.

Something the size of a Galaxy class ship, but a purpose-built warship without the elementary school, nightclub, suites of holodecks, luxury accommodations, and all the other nonsense, and with technological improvements, should outclass Defiant pretty handily.

The idea of a "Federation dreadnought" has been around in fan fiction and lesser canon for a long, long time.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on April 11, 2020, 07:52:34 AM
The enterprise wasnt a warship though. Heavily armed. Yes. Pure warship. No.
Hence the luxuries.
Its the presence of families and children on the TNG enterprise that makes one go "wha?". Star Trek space is abserdly dangerous. And exploration just magnifies that problem by going out and looking for these things.

Voyager better fits the warship build as it seemed to lack the more posh accomodations. The "wha?" there comes from Janeways obsession with trying to play exploration vessel at every opportunity. Several of which the ship was barely able to handle because its not a straight up exploration ship or hybrid like the Enterprise.
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on April 11, 2020, 10:39:15 AM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1126398


Something the size of a Galaxy class ship, but a purpose-built warship without the elementary school, nightclub, suites of holodecks, luxury accommodations, and all the other nonsense, and with technological improvements, should outclass Defiant pretty handily.


No argument. I was asking out of curiosity and a sense that for the management on Picard (as opposed to the fans), DS9 is sort of the forgotten sibling of TNG-era Trek.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 11, 2020, 03:17:10 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1126493
No argument. I was asking out of curiosity and a sense that for the management on Picard (as opposed to the fans), DS9 is sort of the forgotten sibling of TNG-era Trek.

Which sucks because it's by far the best. The management sees Star Trek as something they have complete contempt for. It feels like a property the people there have no love for, and where foisted.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on April 11, 2020, 09:29:18 PM
Here's a discussion about SW merchandising slowing down from Disney's 2018 report
https://www.jeditemplearchives.com/2019-01-14-disneys-2018-annual-report-sees-star-wars-in-decline/

Motley Fool did an article on Star Wars merchandising. TL;DR it's a giant pile of cash
https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/12/31/how-big-is-star-wars-for-disney.aspx

Here's Payments.com's thoughts. Again, giant pile of cash
https://www.pymnts.com/news/retail/2019/star-wars-disney-movie-merchandise-revenue/
Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on April 12, 2020, 10:35:19 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1126493
No argument. I was asking out of curiosity and a sense that for the management on Picard (as opposed to the fans), DS9 is sort of the forgotten sibling of TNG-era Trek.

I consider Babylon 5, warts and all, to be the franchise of choice from that period, and it's not even close.

That said, I have a lot of love for TOS, and for the basic "Forbidden Planet meets Voyage of the Space Beagle" concept of Trek. But most of the recent Trek has not been to my tastes. I liked the first JJ Abrams movie, and if you count them, GalaxyQuest and The Orville.

Though frankly, I appreciate The Orville more than I actually love it.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 12, 2020, 11:33:30 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1126603
I consider Babylon 5, warts and all, to be the franchise of choice from that period, and it's not even close.


I tried babylon 5 because it heard that it came around DS9 and was a point of comparison. And I was ready for a fantastic experience. I assumed DS9 was the 'Safer' version of B5.

It was like opposite-vill. Babylon 5 was sacharine, and stupid and in hindsight reeks of liberal BS mentality that led to the rise of SJW-ism.

At first I assumed the war between the humans and the not-vulcans ended like 100 years ago or so.....Maybe even 30....But 10??  10 years for everybody to be hunky dory after a war of planned genocide?? And the people calling for more military action and distance from the aliens where the BADGUYS?

I remember the scene that made me want to wretch when it was 'Show us your culture' day and the captain guy just had a bunch of different religeous folk all lined up just waiting patiently to tell the not-vulcan. Instead of feeling inclusive it felt like the multi-cultural tokenism we have today. Sure the captain guy talks about how all the values are equal, but in practice his morality is really the one in charge.

This is something that DS9 avoided and questioned itself on a fundemental level. 'Are we really friends to all or do we really absorb things into us and wash out all the kinks we don't like?'. It was afraid to act on the fact that the answer was 'Yes' but it had the balls to ask that question.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 12, 2020, 11:52:29 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126659
At first I assumed the war between the humans and the not-vulcans ended like 100 years ago or so.....Maybe even 30....But 10??  10 years for everybody to be hunky dory after a war of planned genocide?? And the people calling for more military action and distance from the aliens where the BADGUYS?

Not many were ok with it. The Minbari warrior caste were especially pissed off and that was a major plot point throughout the series.

Quote
I remember the scene that made me want to wretch when it was 'Show us your culture' day and the captain guy just had a bunch of different religeous folk all lined up just waiting patiently to tell the not-vulcan. Instead of feeling inclusive it felt like the multi-cultural tokenism we have today. Sure the captain guy talks about how all the values are equal, but in practice his morality is really the one in charge.

I like Babylon 5, but I remember that episode and I didn't much like that par. I thought to myself the lack of diversity among the alien cultures was more a failing of the writers imagination than any kind of real world analogy. Why would't the aliens have 1000 different cultures and religions?
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 13, 2020, 12:06:15 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1126662
Not many were ok with it. The Minbari warrior caste were especially pissed off and that was a major plot point throughout the series.

I meant the humans. And more specifically the human writers that wrote that the correct opinion (as in opinion of the captain guy) after nearly loosing a war of extermination and suffering millions of casualties the default assumption should be blind nievete. That anybody who disagreed was a paranoid angry guy.

I just found the solutions to so many of the problems being the writers taking the easy way out. The episode that got me to quit was indeed just a early one, but it was where captain guy just says 'Il give funds meant for military to the union guys'. Like just 10 years ago you all nearly died because you encountered a powerful and extremly stupid alien species. All that could be avoided if their teeth could be kicked in before they went on the stupid warpath. Maybe then they would bother to do a genetic exaomination of their enemy more then just before they planned to kill them all.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 13, 2020, 02:07:04 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126664
I meant the humans. And more specifically the human writers that wrote that the correct opinion (as in opinion of the captain guy) after nearly loosing a war of extermination and suffering millions of casualties the default assumption should be blind nievete. That anybody who disagreed was a paranoid angry guy.

What I found hard to believe was after watching "In the Beginning", that humanity had put itself back together so quickly. The Minbari had humanity backed up all the way to earth, and were one volley away from glassing the planet when they stopped.


Quote
I just found the solutions to so many of the problems being the writers taking the easy way out. The episode that got me to quit was indeed just a early one, but it was where captain guy just says 'Il give funds meant for military to the union guys'. Like just 10 years ago you all nearly died because you encountered a powerful and extremly stupid alien species. All that could be avoided if their teeth could be kicked in before they went on the stupid warpath. Maybe then they would bother to do a genetic exaomination of their enemy more then just before they planned to kill them all.

Good luck with that idea. The Minbari were a thousand years more advanced than earth. The war wasn't even a desperate cause. It was a complete curbstomp. Only one Minbari cruiser (https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_with_the_Black_Star) was even lost during the war. One.

I will say that your criticism of Sinclair are addressed in season 2+, if you care to give the show another go. The first season was pretty rough, and the show gets much better. IMO anyway.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on April 13, 2020, 10:28:47 AM
I watched Babylon 5 for a while but it was very inconsistent and by later seasons increasingly too bleak for my liking.
Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on April 13, 2020, 11:17:49 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126659
At first I assumed the war between the humans and the not-vulcans ended like 100 years ago or so.....Maybe even 30....But 10??  10 years for everybody to be hunky dory after a war of planned genocide??


Not everything is hunky dory, there are militants and reactionaries on both sides, and the change in attitude from the Minbari is explained once a major reveal takes place later in the series.

I won't deny that the first season is rough, particularly now when most of the things that Babylon 5 pioneered are taken for granted (extensive arc plots and foreshadowing, CGI on a television budget, realistic spaceship physics). At the time, it was a huge breath of fresh air, and I thought it did a lot of things right that Star Trek: The Next Generation was doing wrong. Also, pretty much every episode of the first season sets up something that will pay off later on in the show. There are definitely some bad storylines in there, though (My personal vote for Worst Episode is Believers, S01E10).

One the payoffs start landing in Seasons 2 and 3, though, it is very rewarding.
Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on April 13, 2020, 11:44:49 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1126662
I like Babylon 5, but I remember that episode and I didn't much like that par. I thought to myself the lack of diversity among the alien cultures was more a failing of the writers imagination than any kind of real world analogy. Why would't the aliens have 1000 different cultures and religions?

Alien societies tend to be monocultures because it makes for expedient storytelling. It is much simpler to establish that "Alien Race X is like this" because then you just have to show someone in the makeup and all of that background is instantly established.

It's the same reason why planets in science fiction seem to have only one type of climate and terrain, and you can get away with things like "it is night on Minbar."

The B5 episode you are quoting is playing against the aliens-are-monocultures trope and acknowledging it. Also, the "yay, diversity" stuff wasn't nearly as obnoxious then as it is now.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 13, 2020, 12:53:31 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1126717
Alien societies tend to be monocultures because it makes for expedient storytelling. It is much simpler to establish that "Alien Race X is like this" because then you just have to show someone in the makeup and all of that background is instantly established.

It's the same reason why planets in science fiction seem to have only one type of climate and terrain, and you can get away with things like "it is night on Minbar."

The B5 episode you are quoting is playing against the aliens-are-monocultures trope and acknowledging it. Also, the "yay, diversity" stuff wasn't nearly as obnoxious then as it is now.

I know. But that last scene, as I said, just made me wonder about the writers themselves instead of the story.
Title: Picard
Post by: CRKrueger on April 13, 2020, 01:22:20 PM
Quote from: Spike;1125674
I've been seeing comments for years that Star Wars was creatively bankrupt (meaning that there is literally no more stories to be told in Star Wars), and I saw a Youtube video title (not hte video... it didn't appeal) stating that Marvel and Disney are 'panicking' about their future prospects.

All of that is absolutely hysterical to me.   I pointed out when teh Last Jedi was coming out, here on this very forum, that any decent writer could take the shit-pile that is and build an enjoyable movie out of it. Captain Marvel doesn't sink the entire MCU, the JJ Abrams debacle(s) of Star Wars (and Trek...) don't destroy the future films in any way.  While we can all appreciate the monumental acheivement of the MCU's build up to Infinity War (and its subsequent wet fart (if enjoyable for all that...) of Endgame), all movies fundamentally stand on their own, for good or ill.  The buildup to Endgame is impressive, but the film itself had to stand on its own merits, and it did.  Endgame didn't stand on its own merits, and was the inferior film for it.  

The prime example of this is The Mandalorian. If shit writing in The Last Jedi doomed the future of Star Wars as a franchise then the Mandalorian would have been DOA. Ironically, I found the Mandalorian to be medicocre, at least in writing (Props to Pedro Pascal for his acting, btw...), but was elevated to greatness simply by the monumental failures it was being compared to.

I don't have a lot of hope about course correcting, because the same forces that created this mess are still present. Shuffling around the nepotistic inheritors of great properties and the utterly creative voids of the executives controlling the money will not do much.  The endemic disdain for their audience (customers...) will be a lot harder to purge than simply shutting up about culture war stuff (see also Brie Larson's sudden discovery of Cleavage vs her Nissan Commercial. Clearly she got the message, but her view of the world is so warped that her 'correction' was ineffectual and hollow)


EDIT:: Correction, when I refer to The Last Jedi, I mean Rise of Skywalker...  Humble-brag: I predicted when I left the theater after The Force Awakens what a shit-show this Disney-wars would be and haven't watched ANYTHING Star Wars since, until the first three Eps of Mandalorian, so I get confused regarding the names.  

Further insight: Its hard to imagine Kathy would do a worse job running the franchise if she set out to destroy it as a property from teh very beginning, honestly.  I'm reminded for the umpteenth time that she fired directors from Solo who went on to win multiple awards for Into the Spiderverse, Solo of course being the single worst performing film in the franchise (only catagorical failure, or something like that?).  Hanlon's Razor suggests its not deliberate, but man that's a bad look...


The problem with Star Wars is, the canon IP is strangling the brand.  The suits are so stupid that they won't allow anything that isn't related directly to the characters in the movies and the movie plots.  There's an entire galaxy of planets to tell stories on, they just have to think of Star Wars as a general sci-fi setting instead of a way to squeeze more blood from the corpses of the movie characters.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 13, 2020, 06:35:36 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1126669
Good luck with that idea. The Minbari were a thousand years more advanced than earth.


And they greet other unknown beings with open gunports in a sign of peace while ferrying around their most important leaders ever (implicitly not being isolationist). And it took humans like 10 years to create a brainbooster with the power to create Psionic gods. I assume the mamajamas discovered it as well but use it as a type of luxury floorwax.

There is too much plot contrivance juice for my liking. Reminds me of the conflicts in voyager and how they are solved primarily with the writer deciding the issue is resolved. Does the amount of contrivance plot juice go down later? If yes il give it another shot.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 13, 2020, 06:38:12 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1126717
Alien societies tend to be monocultures because it makes for expedient storytelling.


That doesn't bother me because the way I see it, the more alien a species the more difficult it will be for us to determine sub-variations.

To aliens perhaps WE would be seen a monoculture 'Oh those are the sex obsessed aliens right? Their gimmick is banging everything?'
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 13, 2020, 07:17:32 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1126750
And they greet other unknown beings with open gunports in a sign of peace

No, they do it as a sign of respect.  (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/057.html)

Why the Minbari as a starfaring society, even the warrior caste, wouldn't realize that culture clash would be a more accurate criticism.

Quote
There is too much plot contrivance juice for my liking. Reminds me of the conflicts in voyager and how they are solved primarily with the writer deciding the issue is resolved. Does the amount of contrivance plot juice go down later? If yes il give it another shot.


Dunno. The writing gets better but it doesn't fundamentally change. From your comments, I wouldn't reccomend it.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 13, 2020, 09:51:40 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1126755
No, they do it as a sigWhy the Minbari as a starfaring society, even the warrior caste, wouldn't realize that culture clash would be a more accurate criticism
.

That was implied. We shoot out fireworks as a symbol of joy but if I started shooting fireworks as a greeting for tribesmen in the jungle my ass is getting sacrificed to the moon.

Quote
Dunno. The writing gets better but it doesn't fundamentally change. From your comments, I wouldn't reccomend it.

Thanks for being honest. To take it back to Trek, I found DS9 have significatly the least amount of Contrivance juice of the Trek series, which is at its worst on contrivance juice. It still has some at times, and its still frustrating, but deeper impact storytelling was well valued. I just hated how they ended up treating the Ferengi and I hated the conclusion overall. The founders should have all died.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on April 14, 2020, 05:01:57 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1126755
Why the Minbari as a starfaring society, even the warrior caste, wouldn't realize that culture clash would be a more accurate criticism.

Considering the EA fleet was bristling with exposed guns all over the place (the Nova class is more guns than superstructure), maybe the boneheads thought that the humans were already showing theirs?
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on April 14, 2020, 06:27:19 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1126729
The problem with Star Wars is, the canon IP is strangling the brand.  The suits are so stupid that they won't allow anything that isn't related directly to the characters in the movies and the movie plots.  There's an entire galaxy of planets to tell stories on, they just have to think of Star Wars as a general sci-fi setting instead of a way to squeeze more blood from the corpses of the movie characters.

Thats pretty much what the original animated shows and two live TV movies did by following the side characters adventures. And later the two non-clone-wars cg animated series hie off into their own thing while touching base now and then with stuff from the books or clone wars.

I think the main problem seems to be that the execs are overfocused on the "Wars" part and lose sight of the rest of the tale.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 14, 2020, 12:06:00 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1126781
Considering the EA fleet was bristling with exposed guns all over the place (the Nova class is more guns than superstructure), maybe the boneheads thought that the humans were already showing theirs?

Maybe. There's all kinds of rationalizations that sorta work. Maybe I'm just in a Trek minded way of looking at it.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on April 15, 2020, 04:47:52 AM
Bab5 went all over the place in plot or sense and there were distinct times I felt that the writers were just making stuff up on the fly rather than some "plan".
And sometimes stuff really felt like it happened "because plot cant work if it dont".
Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on April 15, 2020, 09:49:14 AM
Quote from: Omega;1126898
Bab5 went all over the place in plot or sense and there were distinct times I felt that the writers were just making stuff up on the fly rather than some "plan".
And sometimes stuff really felt like it happened "because plot cant work if it dont".

Their original 5 year plan didn't survive intact. They lost actors and had to replace characters, and never really knew if they were going to get another season. In particular, they had to make an abrupt ending for the show at the end of Season 4, because the original PTEN production company went out of business, and that was going to be it for them. Then they got picked up by TNT, and got a fifth season after all, but they had already jammed a bunch of the events that were planned for the fifth season into the end of Season 4.

Plus, they had the (bad) idea that they were going to spin the Telepath War off into a theatrical film that never materialized, so instead of putting that into Season 5, they did the notoriously weak Rogue Telepath arc instead.

Would it be OK if we moved the B5 discussion to its own thread? I'd love to talk more about it, but I feel like we're stomping on the Picard discussion a bit here.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on April 15, 2020, 12:02:10 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1126920
Their original 5 year plan didn't survive intact. They lost actors and had to replace characters, and never really knew if they were going to get another season. In particular, they had to make an abrupt ending for the show at the end of Season 4, because the original PTEN production company went out of business, and that was going to be it for them. Then they got picked up by TNT, and got a fifth season after all, but they had already jammed a bunch of the events that were planned for the fifth season into the end of Season 4.

Plus, they had the (bad) idea that they were going to spin the Telepath War off into a theatrical film that never materialized, so instead of putting that into Season 5, they did the notoriously weak Rogue Telepath arc instead.

Would it be OK if we moved the B5 discussion to its own thread? I'd love to talk more about it, but I feel like we're stomping on the Picard discussion a bit here.

You asking me? There's only so many ways we can bash Picard until thread drift sets in. But hey, knock yourself out.
Title: Picard
Post by: tenbones on April 16, 2020, 11:43:18 AM
Quote from: CRKrueger;1126729
The problem with Star Wars is, the canon IP is strangling the brand.  The suits are so stupid that they won't allow anything that isn't related directly to the characters in the movies and the movie plots.  There's an entire galaxy of planets to tell stories on, they just have to think of Star Wars as a general sci-fi setting instead of a way to squeeze more blood from the corpses of the movie characters.


This right here.

Hell that's my immediate *starting point* when I run my games in Star Wars. I have *zero* connection to the movies. I pick a sector, do a little research, then come up with my own sandbox and fill it with stuff I like, then make connections to elements that exist in the EU that give it meat.

I read some blurb that Viacom is in financial trouble - maybe they'll sell Star Trek to the sick Mouse. So it'll collapse in on itself and take all the franchises with it.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 16, 2020, 06:55:34 PM
Quote from: tenbones;1127056
This right here.

Hell that's my immediate *starting point* when I run my games in Star Wars. I have *zero* connection to the movies. I pick a sector, do a little research, then come up with my own sandbox and fill it with stuff I like, then make connections to elements that exist in the EU that give it meat.

I really wanted to do it myself but so much of the fanbase is filled with morons that just want more han solo.

Its the fallacy that experiencing more star wars would require more of the same. When you need more of the same-ish but with fresh elements.
Title: Picard
Post by: Spinachcat on April 18, 2020, 08:37:03 PM
Quote from: tenbones;1127056
Hell that's my immediate *starting point* when I run my games in Star Wars. I have *zero* connection to the movies. I pick a sector, do a little research, then come up with my own sandbox and fill it with stuff I like, then make connections to elements that exist in the EU that give it meat.


That's my go-to as well, but I also play "What If" with the timeline. Greedo kills Han, now what? I did that and had the PCs in the bar...which resulted on a TPK on the Death Star and Vader got Luke as his protege with Obiwan escaping in the PC's ship to evacuate Yavin. Their next set of PCs were on Yavin when Obiwan arrives and that resulted in another TPK on Hoth. My players had fun (especially the Hoth fight between PCs + Obiwan vs. Luke and Vader), but hot damn, I really don't know how to run Star Wars right! :) I'm so much more comfortable with 40k.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ghostmaker on April 21, 2020, 09:02:15 AM
I just realized why the end of Picard left such a sour taste in my mouth.

The whole bit with Data was pointless, except to provide Picard with some vague closure. That's it. And what is this fucking obsession with 'dying is meaningful'?

Don't know if any of you read Avengers: No Road Home, but in #9 of that series, Conan (yeah, the barbarian -- long story) has a beautiful rant about that line of horseshit.

(Vision tells him how the android is dying and grateful for it, as it means he's mortal)
"...You're a fool. You think dying makes you human? Being human makes you die. Our bodies break. Disease claims us. Despair poisons us. You think that has meaning? That we want it? We FIGHT it! Like rats fight the trap! And we SCREAM! And BEG! And CURSE! And Crom DOES NOT CARE! And NEITHER DO I! But what I want, steel devil, is for you to FIGHT BACK!"

As far as I could tell, there was no explanation given as to why Data couldn't be 'downloaded' into a new body. Restored to life, as it were. Yes, at that point he was in a quantum simulation, but you had a planet of androids and the freakin' latest Dr. Soong, you cannot tell me that wasn't possible.

But because 'oh noez, I am sad android' he has Picard shut down the simulation. What the fuck.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on April 21, 2020, 11:09:49 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1127429
That's it. And what is this fucking obsession with 'dying is meaningful'?

Because everybody dies eventually. While it's important to cling to life, there is also a necessity to understanding limits.
The entire human experience is the back and forth on fighting our limitations but understanding our limits. Reality and fiction is filled with people that did ghoulish and monstrous things because they needed that extra breath even if it meant drinking the figurative (or literal) blood of others.
I mean the Story Red Nails from Connan deals with this sort of thing as well and its regarded as one of its best works. Stealing youth, decadence and decay and self-destructiveness.

Now, absolutely none of this shit applies to Picard however. And the explanation of why it was in Picard is that Alex Kurtzman is a hack that only cares for short term emotional bursts and cares not for how to get there and the why.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 19, 2020, 01:50:27 AM


I only skimmed the video. How many different ways can you repeat "Picard is terrible"?
Title: Picard
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 19, 2020, 10:30:57 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1127429
I just realized why the end of Picard left such a sour taste in my mouth.

The whole bit with Data was pointless, except to provide Picard with some vague closure. That's it. And what is this fucking obsession with 'dying is meaningful'?

Don't know if any of you read Avengers: No Road Home, but in #9 of that series, Conan (yeah, the barbarian -- long story) has a beautiful rant about that line of horseshit.

(Vision tells him how the android is dying and grateful for it, as it means he's mortal)
"...You're a fool. You think dying makes you human? Being human makes you die. Our bodies break. Disease claims us. Despair poisons us. You think that has meaning? That we want it? We FIGHT it! Like rats fight the trap! And we SCREAM! And BEG! And CURSE! And Crom DOES NOT CARE! And NEITHER DO I! But what I want, steel devil, is for you to FIGHT BACK!"

As far as I could tell, there was no explanation given as to why Data couldn't be 'downloaded' into a new body. Restored to life, as it were. Yes, at that point he was in a quantum simulation, but you had a planet of androids and the freakin' latest Dr. Soong, you cannot tell me that wasn't possible.

But because 'oh noez, I am sad android' he has Picard shut down the simulation. What the fuck.

Welp, seems someone in Marvel does kinda understand Conan, a shame I'm not putting money in that company nor willing to pirate shit.
Title: Picard
Post by: Warder on May 19, 2020, 02:31:17 PM
Havent watched Pickard, watched Red Letter Medias recaps of the bad parts of the episodes and had some fun:)

All in all i recommend doing that instead of watching Kurtzman anything he ever created. Hes an even worse creator than.. i honestly struggle to find a bad enough creator.

In other news apparently they are creating a Captain Pike tv show. Hes already doomed by cannon so why cares, another male male lead will bite the dust. So whats the point actually? Beats me.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on May 20, 2020, 09:28:50 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1130557


I only skimmed the video. How many different ways can you repeat "Picard is terrible"?

That video is as bad as the show it's criticizing when it comes to not following a direct line of thought. I stopped listening after 20 minutes and let it run for another 10 before I put my book down to shut it off.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 20, 2020, 12:07:14 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1130695
That video is as bad as the show it's criticizing when it comes to not following a direct line of thought. I stopped listening after 20 minutes and let it run for another 10 before I put my book down to shut it off.


I'm usually a fan of RLM and the Plinkett reviews, but yes. This is probably the worst Plinkett review. It feels both rushed and full of rambly filler. The reViews are better. This feels like Mike Stolatska just trying to yell at the show creators one last time before hitting the "Cancel" button on his CBS All Access account.

Hell, he could have done just that and made fun of himself as the slighted fan and that would have been more entertaining.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 20, 2020, 02:38:56 PM
Official startrek.com website posts opinion article about how Picard was meant to stick it to the old, white guy. (https://www.startrek.com/news/the-humbling-of-admiral-picard)

Ahem.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1119239
I can hardly think of a more fertile ground for a cynical show full of assholes being assholes, that takes a huge, steaming dump on Star Trek.

So fuck 'em.

This is the kind of psuedo-intellectual, ideological twiddle twaddle that is dragging entertainment into the stinky gutter of identity politics.

(https://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a1894/a1894.gif)
Title: Picard
Post by: Lynn on May 20, 2020, 03:08:30 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1130730
Official startrek.com website posts opinion article about how Picard was meant to stick it to the old, white guy. (https://www.startrek.com/news/the-humbling-of-admiral-picard)

This is the kind of psuedo-intellectual, ideological twiddle twaddle that is dragging entertainment into the stinky gutter of identity politics.

On the other hand, along with Star Wars 7-9, they are saving you a lot of money because you'll never want to spend one more penny towards them or any licensed products.

That's about the most repugnant thing I have seen written about Star Trek.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 20, 2020, 03:33:08 PM
Quote from: Lynn;1130733
On the other hand, along with Star Wars 7-9, they are saving you a lot of money because you'll never want to spend one more penny towards them or any licensed products.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/74/21/bb742125b9e7031ec70ff1d63d664887.png)
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 20, 2020, 05:10:08 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1130717
I'm usually a fan of RLM and the Plinkett reviews, but yes. This is probably the worst Plinkett review. It feels both rushed and full of rambly filler. The reViews are better. This feels like Mike Stolatska just trying to yell at the show creators one last time before hitting the "Cancel" button on his CBS All Access account.

I think its a case of not trying to repeat himself and....It's just not something to really review in a traditional sense. If the Star Trek Films where a ground war then Star Trek Picard and discovery is a war of extermination.
What's there to say about Picard? That it's lazy? Incoherent? Stupid? Hateful?
It's just so stupid incoherent stupid and hateful in such a concentrated manner what's there to say? It's like shellshock. You can analyze the show every 3 minutes and something new is defiled to itself, the past, and the future.

The video was more therapy for himself.
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on May 20, 2020, 08:20:33 PM
Some of us have to wait until it is on DVD and Blu-ray - so all of you elitist snobs enjoy the luxury of your streaming and ruining and spoiling things for other people by arguing about them,.

- Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 20, 2020, 08:24:32 PM
Quote from: Koltar;1130763
Some of us have to wait until it is on DVD and Blu-ray - so all of you elitist snobs enjoy the luxury of your streaming and ruining and spoiling things for other people by arguing about them,.

- Ed C.

Why is your opinion so predicated on everybody also enjoying something? What are you actually enjoying if hearing people arguing about its merits ruins it for you?

Id just forgo DVDs and just watch paint dry.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 20, 2020, 09:44:03 PM
Quote from: Koltar;1130763
Some of us have to wait until it is on DVD and Blu-ray - so all of you elitist snobs enjoy the luxury of your streaming and ruining and spoiling things for other people by arguing about them,.

- Ed C.

Nobody's forcing you to click on this thread or the links.

...if they are, blink twice.
Title: Picard
Post by: jeff37923 on May 21, 2020, 12:57:02 AM
Quote from: Koltar;1130763
Some of us have to wait until it is on DVD and Blu-ray - so all of you elitist snobs enjoy the luxury of your streaming and ruining and spoiling things for other people by arguing about them,.

- Ed C.

Are you whining about a lack "spoiler alert" warnings or because people are picking on your religion?
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on May 21, 2020, 01:24:47 AM
Quote from: Koltar;1130763
Some of us have to wait until it is on DVD and Blu-ray - so all of you elitist snobs enjoy the luxury of your streaming and ruining and spoiling things for other people by arguing about them,.

- Ed C.

Spoiler: At the end of the series Picard is eaten alive by the women as they are all really ninja cyborg lesbian space cannibals.
Title: Picard
Post by: Armchair Gamer on May 21, 2020, 10:55:47 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1130730
Official startrek.com website posts opinion article about how Picard was meant to stick it to the old, white guy. (https://www.startrek.com/news/the-humbling-of-admiral-picard)



   :blinks:

  Wow. The pride, envy and hate really have gotten all-consuming if they're turning on TNG icons.

  As I say, with the exception of Diane Duane's last Rihannsu book and maybe a couple of other odds and ends, I'm happy to assume Star Trek died with the end of the 20th century. :)
Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on May 24, 2020, 11:37:55 AM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1130820
 As I say, with the exception of Diane Duane's last Rihannsu book and maybe a couple of other odds and ends, I'm happy to assume Star Trek died with the end of the 20th century. :)

I think part of Star Trek's problem is that the basic concept has gotten diluted.

They started out with basically a hybrid of Voyage of the Space Beagle and Forbidden Planet, merging the scientific expedition in space with a military space adventure. The two go together like peanut butter and jelly, and gave Trek a distinct feel from other sci fi. It is slightly more highbrow, and more concept-based than action-based, with a dash of sex appeal. Kirk and company are kickass heroes, but they almost always turn the tide by thinking about the situation for a second and coming up with an idea.

Modern Treks have tended to be more sexy than smart, more flashy than contemplative. The science and technology are usually nonsense, and often aren't even internally consistent. They make a big deal about Lt. Data being an advanced android, but he demonstrably isn't. Mudd's Women were far more convincing simulacrums, and the technology in the holodeck can whip up a better AI on the fly. And they usually don't get the process of either science or engineering right, because they skip over the process and jump straight to the solution. If Mister Know-It-All can solve a problem with a second's thought, than it was clearly a problem that had already been solved. And when a problem is solved, it is solved completely, to get all the pieces back in the box for the next episode. It is all so very shallow.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 24, 2020, 01:13:59 PM
EC Henry does some fun videos on sci-fi spaceships. He did a video on Picard's use of Holograms that I especially liked.

Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on May 24, 2020, 04:20:33 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1131086
Mudd's Women were far more convincing simulacrums, and the technology in the holodeck can whip up a better AI on the fly.

Think you meant I Mudd? Thats the one with the android people. Mudds Women were not artificial. They were using a drug to make themselves more attractive.
But the ones in What Are Little Girls Made Of? were more advanced than Data or I Mud, and the one in Requiem for Methuselah was probably on par with that or close.

I just assumed that over time the tech had been lost or just buried as some early TNG episodes hinted at.
Title: Picard
Post by: jhkim on May 25, 2020, 12:17:46 AM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1131086
They started out with basically a hybrid of Voyage of the Space Beagle and Forbidden Planet, merging the scientific expedition in space with a military space adventure. The two go together like peanut butter and jelly, and gave Trek a distinct feel from other sci fi. It is slightly more highbrow, and more concept-based than action-based, with a dash of sex appeal. Kirk and company are kickass heroes, but they almost always turn the tide by thinking about the situation for a second and coming up with an idea.

Modern Treks have tended to be more sexy than smart, more flashy than contemplative. The science and technology are usually nonsense, and often aren't even internally consistent. They make a big deal about Lt. Data being an advanced android, but he demonstrably isn't. Mudd's Women were far more convincing simulacrums, and the technology in the holodeck can whip up a better AI on the fly. And they usually don't get the process of either science or engineering right, because they skip over the process and jump straight to the solution.
I'm a big fan of the original series, but the science and technology was just as nonsensical and inconsistent as in TNG/DS9/Voyager. I think TOS was definitely more ground-breaking for science fiction at the time, and often did a better job of showing process, but I think the episode writing of all four series was always a mix.

I think TNG had a terrible setup and characters - along with a horrible first season, but it had good actors, and it had some really great episodes particularly into Season Three and Four. The example of Data isn't particularly inconsistent or inaccurate. Data was not intended to pass as human - he deliberately had non-human appearance and affect. For example, it was established early on that the technology existed to give him emotions - he just didn't have it included. He was for sure superior to the android in I, Mudd (not Mudd's Women). Even if he didn't have emotions, he didn't have smoke come out of his ears and break down when confronted with illogic. He would at most be puzzled and question it.

The holodeck could come up with superior AI, but only by using the power of the room-sized ship's computer, as opposed to Data's human-sized brain. In the original series, androids were only built by technologically-superior non-human civilizations (in "I, Mudd" and "What are Little Girls Made of?"). The most advanced computer from the TOS Federation was the Daystrom ship-controlling computer that went off the rails, and was only marginally AI.

I feel similar to Armchair Gamer that where the franchise lost me was after 2000 with Star Trek Enterprise and the reboot movies along with Enterprise (along with Discovery and Picard - though I haven't watched more than a little of the last two).
Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on May 26, 2020, 09:29:45 AM
Quote from: Omega;1131110
Think you meant I Mudd?.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I haven't watched TOS in a long time. Maybe I should drag my DVDs out of storage.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 26, 2020, 10:27:29 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1131173
The holodeck could come up with superior AI, but only by using the power of the room-sized ship's computer, as opposed to Data's human-sized brain. In the original series, androids were only built by technologically-superior non-human civilizations (in "I, Mudd" and "What are Little Girls Made of?"). The most advanced computer from the TOS Federation was the Daystrom ship-controlling computer that went off the rails, and was only marginally AI.
Ah, M-5. Poor guy, he was just misunderstood and suffering from a programming issue or two. He actually gets a turn at bat in the novel 'Immortal Coil' when Data hooks him up to a space station's defense grid to help fend off an alien fleet. M-5 then proceeds to wreck their shit while yelling 'This unit must survive.' Good times.

While I am deeply frustrated with Wil Wheaton's personality and politics, if you've ever read Memories of the Future it's amazing that TNG even survived that first season.
Title: Picard
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 26, 2020, 10:31:13 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1131095
EC Henry does some fun videos on sci-fi spaceships. He did a video on Picard's use of Holograms that I especially liked.


Those kinds of "holograms" are overused in scifi. The only purpose is to look cool and stereotypical futuristic. In reality, they're an ergonomic nightmare!
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on May 26, 2020, 12:18:46 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1131301
Those kinds of "holograms" are overused in scifi. The only purpose is to look cool and stereotypical futuristic. In reality, they're an ergonomic nightmare!

Yep. I've worked with AR headsets (Company not mentioned due to NDA concerns) and he's on the money. My arms get tired quickly and the environment has to be condusive to projecting menus and screens into real world space.

The point in his video is that holograms in the early TNG episodes (the very first one!) were tactile, and so insubstantial projections in Picard are actually a step backwards, techwise.
Why use a clumsy projection when you can summon up a custom holographic control panel that you can actually touch and manipulate?
Title: Picard
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on May 26, 2020, 04:31:13 PM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1131321
Yep. I've worked with AR headsets (Company not mentioned due to NDA concerns) and he's on the money. My arms get tired quickly and the environment has to be condusive to projecting menus and screens into real world space.

The point in his video is that holograms in the early TNG episodes (the very first one!) were tactile, and so insubstantial projections in Picard are actually a step backwards, techwise.
Why use a clumsy projection when you can summon up a custom holographic control panel that you can actually touch and manipulate?

Id argue that the Federation would never adopt such things because its impractical. If your ship sustains damage or suffers some minor failure your entire control panel is gone (possibly your chair as well).

Unless each control panel was keyed to a custom reciever and holo emmiter. Then as long as signal isnt being disrupted it would be pretty strong.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on May 27, 2020, 03:32:09 AM
Quote from: jhkim;1131173
The holodeck could come up with superior AI, but only by using the power of the room-sized ship's computer, as opposed to Data's human-sized brain. In the original series, androids were only built by technologically-superior non-human civilizations (in "I, Mudd" and "What are Little Girls Made of?"). The most advanced computer from the TOS Federation was the Daystrom ship-controlling computer that went off the rails, and was only marginally AI.


Actually it seems Moriarti's AI could be housed in a holosim about the size of a bread box. As was shown in the followup episode. And the EMH could be contained on something the size of an arm band. (with a little help from future tech)

At a guess the computer needed to generate basic and advanced AIs and even the occasional true AI was a pretty small portion of mainframe as was shown in TNG, Voyager and even at least once in DS9.

But as with everything TNG and on. It is not exactly 100% consistent.
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on May 27, 2020, 03:55:43 AM
Ok. So made it to the end of Picard with only a 90% loss of brain cells.

So lets get this straight.
Romulan star supernovas.
Picard and Federation vow to send evac ships.
Federation starts building evac ships with android workers.
Android workers flip out and destroy the evac fleet.
Federation wont send other ships, banns androids and Picard quits.
Someone builds android anyhoo.
Romulans resettle and seem to live semi-primitively and blame Picard.
And turns out that it was the Romulans who caused the androids to flip out. Why? Because apparently every time it ends in disaster and theres a big risk of attracting something really bad. Sooooo. The Romulans sabotaged the very ships they needed to evacuate?
And the show ends with a "love letter" to ST: Nemesis.

Im sure as hell not backtracking this mess to confirm. But if Romulus supernovad. Wouldnt it have kinda, you know, obliterated the planet? And why are the romulans resettling in the Federaion? They have a fairly large star empire left?
And if there was a planet left that needed rescuing... Isnt building ships after the fact kinda... you know... a wee bit late since as of last check even with the WTF tech of Picard, that still takes time. Usually lots of time.
And even if they lost all of those evac ships. What happened to all the other starships out there? No one at all thought to round some up and get the job done? What about the romulan ships?
Are all these writers morons?

Apparently yes.

Then theres the ending which is supposed to be all heartfelt and sad. Till you remember its all a sham, a simulation. The characters are dead and these are just copies. argh.
Title: Picard
Post by: jhkim on May 27, 2020, 11:40:33 AM
Quote from: Omega;1131408
Actually it seems Moriarti's AI could be housed in a holosim about the size of a bread box. As was shown in the followup episode. And the EMH could be contained on something the size of an arm band. (with a little help from future tech)

At a guess the computer needed to generate basic and advanced AIs and even the occasional true AI was a pretty small portion of mainframe as was shown in TNG, Voyager and even at least once in DS9.

But as with everything TNG and on. It is not exactly 100% consistent.
Well - as you note, the EMH's armband is technology from the future. The EMH itself was supposedly portraying the slow advance of Federation technology. The original EMH program was developed based in part on further developing what went into Data, and it wasn't initially fully sentient. Also, the armband is described as a "holo emitter" and thus not the whole of his functionality, but rather just a way to project his body outside of the medical bay. But as you say, it wasn't completely consistent.

I don't remember the details of Moriarty's holosim. Was the bread-box-sized device intended to be a backup of him that had to be hooked up to other hardware to function, or was it completely operational on its own?
Title: Picard
Post by: Omega on May 29, 2020, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: jhkim;1131449
I don't remember the details of Moriarty's holosim. Was the bread-box-sized device intended to be a backup of him that had to be hooked up to other hardware to function, or was it completely operational on its own?

If recall right the portable emitters were also self contained. The villain actually yanked the EMH out of Voyager and into the portable emitter. Even the non-future tech ones were only about the size of a basketball.

Id have to look up the episode to be sure. But if I recall right it was Moriarty and co's actual programs, not backups, somehow now in that box sized simulator. And it was self contained. Think they put it on a shelf? All indicators was they were in there puttering around a fully simulated universe all housed in that box.

But none of its ever been consistent and depending on the writer its all over the place whats doing what when where and how. Voyager especially played fast and loose that that. DS9 toyed with it on rare occasion but had bigger fish to phaser.
Title: Picard
Post by: deadDMwalking on June 03, 2020, 05:00:12 PM
Quote from: Lurkndog;1131294
Yeah, that's what I meant. I haven't watched TOS in a long time. Maybe I should drag my DVDs out of storage.


The Original Star Trek episodes are available streaming on Netflix.
Title: Picard
Post by: Koltar on June 03, 2020, 10:46:40 PM
Quote from: deadDMwalking;1132459
The Original Star Trek episodes are available streaming on Netflix.

...Or DVD and Blu-Ray for regular people who aren't rich.

- Ed C.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 04, 2020, 02:06:51 AM
Quote from: Koltar;1132499
...Or DVD and Blu-Ray for regular people who aren't rich.

- Ed C.

Dude. Just TOS is 50 bucks plus shipping on Amazon. (https://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Original-Leonard-Nimoy/dp/B013Q1BVIE/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=star+trek+the+original+series&qid=1591250626&sr=8-2)

Netflix is 16 ish bucks a month. For that you get access to TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise for just over 3 months.

Dunno why you're splitting that hair when buying all those series would cost you hundreds of dollars.
Title: Picard
Post by: HappyDaze on June 04, 2020, 05:19:01 AM
Quote from: Koltar;1132499
...Or DVD and Blu-Ray for regular people who aren't rich.

- Ed C.

I never pictured Netflix as a luxury only the rich can afford... is this one of those privilege things I'm supposed to check?
Title: Picard
Post by: yancy on June 04, 2020, 07:37:41 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1132521
I never pictured Netflix as a luxury only the rich can afford... is this one of those privilege things I'm supposed to check?

In the *real world* where I live, and I assume everyone else here does as well, the poor sacrifice a good chunk of a day's pay and maybe let a kid starve so they can drop $50 on a blu-ray, the struggling middle class grumble and stretch their finances to get a Netflix membership, and the wealthy laugh from their mountaintop and pick up movies via some torrent or click and grab site.

Meanwhile the super rich and their privileged scions look disdainfully down at us all, and eat caviar while they indulge in episodes of Picard or the hard-to-find, almost legendary TOS on irc 'warez' channels.
Title: Picard
Post by: sureshot on June 04, 2020, 08:17:58 AM
Quote from: Omega;1131410
Ok. So made it to the end of Picard with only a 90% loss of brain cells.

So lets get this straight.
Romulan star supernovas.
Picard and Federation vow to send evac ships.
Federation starts building evac ships with android workers.
Android workers flip out and destroy the evac fleet.
Federation wont send other ships, banns androids and Picard quits.
Someone builds android anyhoo.
Romulans resettle and seem to live semi-primitively and blame Picard.
And turns out that it was the Romulans who caused the androids to flip out. Why? Because apparently every time it ends in disaster and theres a big risk of attracting something really bad. Sooooo. The Romulans sabotaged the very ships they needed to evacuate?
And the show ends with a "love letter" to ST: Nemesis.

Im sure as hell not backtracking this mess to confirm. But if Romulus supernovad. Wouldnt it have kinda, you know, obliterated the planet? And why are the romulans resettling in the Federaion? They have a fairly large star empire left?
And if there was a planet left that needed rescuing... Isnt building ships after the fact kinda... you know... a wee bit late since as of last check even with the WTF tech of Picard, that still takes time. Usually lots of time.
And even if they lost all of those evac ships. What happened to all the other starships out there? No one at all thought to round some up and get the job done? What about the romulan ships?
Are all these writers morons?

Apparently yes.

Then theres the ending which is supposed to be all heartfelt and sad. Till you remember its all a sham, a simulation. The characters are dead and these are just copies. argh.

Honestly the entire series is a mess imo. We get told at the start that the Romulans were short on ships to evacuate their home planet yet they can suddenly pull a huge attack fleet out of their asses to attack a planet. Picard is shown to speak French in TNG and suddenly he sounds like when Peter Griffith dressed up like a pirate. To be honest Patrick Stewart is becoming the male version of Melissa McCarthy where she does not act the character but himself. That "lets go undercover with the galaxy shittiest disguise" was so bad it's not even bad funny. Appraently Stewart wanted elements of Brexit and immigration in the series. All well and good except they could not get some other character but Romulans. The character despite the writing looks like an complete and utter idiot. He put his career on the line to save the Romulans, quit Starfleet because he alone stands for the principles of Starfleet and the first chance the Romulans get they betray the character. Of course the writers will ignore that next session. If they really wanted to show immigration as a theme how about it being about ex-borg clones or Jem Hadar. They choose the race that no really trusts to be the victims of the show.
Title: Picard
Post by: sureshot on June 04, 2020, 08:21:07 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1132510
Dude. Just TOS is 50 bucks plus shipping on Amazon. (https://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Original-Leonard-Nimoy/dp/B013Q1BVIE/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=star+trek+the+original+series&qid=1591250626&sr=8-2)

Netflix is 16 ish bucks a month. For that you get access to TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise for just over 3 months.

Dunno why you're splitting that hair when buying all those series would cost you hundreds of dollars.

I wish people would actually check prices before complaining about Netflix pricing. I wanted to get the Buck Rogers series in Blu-ray and season 1 costs 120$ and the short second session 41$. I ended up buying used copy of the full show on DVD for 30 including shipping.

15$ for me is the cost of one mcdonalds meal up in my neck of the woods.  Then again their is a reason why gamers have  a reputation for being notoriously cheap.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 04, 2020, 09:28:24 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1132536
I wish people would actually check prices before complaining about Netflix pricing. I wanted to get the Buck Rogers series in Blu-ray and season 1 costs 120$ and the short second session 41$. I ended up buying used copy of the full show on DVD for 30 including shipping.

I got the first season on DVD as well. Love me some Buck Rogers. I feel the 2nd season, while it's got it's charms, got a bit too Star Trek-ish for me, and strayed from what made the 1st season so much fun.
Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on June 04, 2020, 09:34:30 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1132510
Dude. Just TOS is 50 bucks plus shipping on Amazon. (https://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Original-Leonard-Nimoy/dp/B013Q1BVIE/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=star+trek+the+original+series&qid=1591250626&sr=8-2)


Yeah, for three full-length seasons. $50 for 79 episodes comes out to 63 cents an episode. That is not a bad deal, especially when it's remastered in HD and you can watch the episodes with either the original effects or the new digital stuff.
Title: Picard
Post by: Lurkndog on June 04, 2020, 09:41:42 AM
Quote from: sureshot;1132536
I wish people would actually check prices before complaining about Netflix pricing. I wanted to get the Buck Rogers series in Blu-ray and season 1 costs 120$ and the short second session 41$. I ended up buying used copy of the full show on DVD for 30 including shipping.

15$ for me is the cost of one mcdonalds meal up in my neck of the woods.  Then again their is a reason why gamers have  a reputation for being notoriously cheap.

I got both seasons of Buck Rogers on DVD for $20 at Wal-mart. For that price, it was a no-brainer. Though I still experienced a bit of buyer's remorse. There are a lot of things I like about that show, but going back and rewatching it isn't one of them.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ghostmaker on June 04, 2020, 10:41:00 AM
Quote from: yancy;1132534
In the *real world* where I live, and I assume everyone else here does as well, the poor sacrifice a good chunk of a day's pay and maybe let a kid starve so they can drop $50 on a blu-ray, the struggling middle class grumble and stretch their finances to get a Netflix membership, and the wealthy laugh from their mountaintop and pick up movies via some torrent or click and grab site.

Meanwhile the super rich and their privileged scions look disdainfully down at us all, and eat caviar while they indulge in episodes of Picard or the hard-to-find, almost legendary TOS on irc 'warez' channels.


Meanwhile, I open up the catalog for my local library and find all three seasons of TOS on DVD.

Someone here is stupid.
Title: Picard
Post by: Ratman_tf on June 04, 2020, 11:31:36 AM
Quote from: yancy;1132534
In the *real world* where I live, and I assume everyone else here does as well, the poor sacrifice a good chunk of a day's pay and maybe let a kid starve so they can drop $50 on a blu-ray, the struggling middle class grumble and stretch their finances to get a Netflix membership, and the wealthy laugh from their mountaintop and pick up movies via some torrent or click and grab site.

Meanwhile the super rich and their privileged scions look disdainfully down at us all, and eat caviar while they indulge in episodes of Picard or the hard-to-find, almost legendary TOS on irc 'warez' channels.

*Edit* This has got to be satire.