Hey, let's go talk about space dungeons.  That's much more interesting to me, and sure I wear a pink tie 9sometimes with a teal shirt), but I can't be the ONLY one.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Hey, let's go talk about space dungeons.  That's much more interesting to me, and sure I wear a pink tie 9sometimes with a teal shirt), but I can't be the ONLY one.

I'll start a thread.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Hey, let's go talk about space dungeons.  That's much more interesting to me, and sure I wear a pink tie 9sometimes with a teal shirt), but I can't be the ONLY one.

I've been wanting a "space D&D" for a long time.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Hey, let's go talk about space dungeons.  That's much more interesting to me, and sure I wear a pink tie 9sometimes with a teal shirt), but I can't be the ONLY one.

 Teal button shirt - yeah I'd wear that.


 PINK tie??  Um maybe, if my friend Robin said it looked good on me. She's got great blue eyes.


- Ed C.

Quote from: TonyLBIs that a creative agenda?  I dunno.  It's a rough draft of some of the things I suspect will come up as we play, however.

Ok. I can't think of a whole lot of good D&D questions right now, but I might ask about system specifics and maybe New Mage in a bit. I'm on a New Mage kick, and while you're obligating yourself to answer good faith questions, I might take advantage of the captive audiance.

Quote from: TonyLBWow ... that's a lot of assumptions all bundled into one question.  The straightforward answer is "No, I don't think that's what happened."

To get into a bit more detail (which I think the question well merits):  I think that the description of unhappy gamers in the GNS essay is profoundly negative, and I would be stunned if people didn't take offense at it.  It is also aggressive in redefining people who play differently from Ron's preferred style as "wrong," and so I do see it as an attack (though such a diffused and generalized one that it's hard to know whether he had any special target in mind).

So I agree that "Ron's initial essay includes offensive, attacking material."  I sure wish he hadn't done that.

So you DO agree that the very foundational document of GNS-Forge theory was framed in a context that involved elitist attack-material against gamers?

In this context, how can you then continue to claim that regular gamers have no basis or only imaginary causes to feel under attack from the Forge, Ron Edwards, and all his followers?

Are you now willing to stop pussyfooting around and actually ADMIT that the Theorists had started out attacking regular gamers from the very beginning?
It doesn't matter what the previous conditions were, or the weather or the motherfucking barometric pressure; the point is that right out of the gate you fuckers were basing your entire movement on attacking us.
I mean shit, do you agree that the GNS essay and the Forge FAQ are the foundational documents of the Forge and GNS theory? If you do, you've already admitted that you think they are based on attacking gamers.

QuoteI disagree with your characterization of the details of what he said (the whole "because they're deluding themselves, etc., etc." stuff).  Frankly, I think his points are a bit more nuanced than your restating of them.  So I don't think that the attacks are exactly the ones you describe.  They're different offensive attacks.

My god you're a slimy pathetic son of a bitch, aren't you? I've seen eels who were less wriggly.  Is Ron Edwards really worth this much intellectual trouble to you, that you need to basically massacre your own credibility and reputation forever just to try to justify the man's crapulence? I mean, what the fuck, did he die and go to hell for your sins or something?  What the fuck has Dear Leader got on you that you feel the need to sycophantically engage in these kinds of apologetics for him?

QuoteAnd on the question of whether he attacked FIRST ... I don't think so.  There's really no question that there was offensiveness of all sorts flying around in RPG discussions before Ron ever arrived on the scene (as there probably will be long after he's forgotten) ... and I don't think that the people who argue that Ron attacked first are claiming that there wasn't.  The GNS essays were not our community's collective fall from a state of perfect grace.

For fuck's sake, the question obviously wasn't "was Ron Edwards the first guy to ever say something asinine and insulting to other roleplayers, ever?"; and its a sign of the weakness of your argument that you feel the need to answer the question on the basis of a technicality like this one to avoid answering the questions REAL intent.  So you've basically proven your inability to answer a question honestly right here.

QuoteRather, I read people as saying that the current conflict can be looked at without looking any earlier that Ron's statements.  You can frame that as The Beginning, and not pay attention to anything that happened before it ... and that's a sensible story.

It's sort of like saying that the story of the American Revolution starts at the penning of the Declaration of Independence.  You can tell the story without referring to anything earlier ... and maybe it will hang together, and maybe it won't.

The American Revolution, Beat Poets; can you see how people think you fuckers are unbelievably full of yourselves?

Your answer is a NON-Answer. You're avoiding the question by saying "we have to look at the definition of "first". BULLSHIT. The point is he started out attacking gamers, HE DID. Not my side.  The Forge came out of a bunch of other shit and as a consequence of a bunch of other shit, but the answer to the question is logically OBVIOUS.  Its like asking "did TonyLB breathe before he was born?".  

The point is that the FIRST thing the Forge did was to attack regular roleplayers. Your efforts to keep pussyfooting and dodging and evading that issue is part of what makes us hate you all the more. Every time you refuse to take your lumps for the utter shithead you guys have as your Leader, you not only confirm more and more that he IS your "Dear Leader" that you are so blindly devoted to that you're willing to destroy all your reputations for, but you also manage to make the regular Roleplayers you claim to be so desperate to reach out to and make amends with all the angrier at you.

So again, answer the motherfucking question: was the FIRST thing that Ron Edwards did in creating his Theory involve attacking Roleplayers? AND DON'T FUCKING TRY TO SQUIRM OUT OF IT BY TRYING TO SAY THAT "THERE WERE OTHER THINGS HE DID TOO", OR "WE CAN'T KNOW WHO HE MEANT TO ATTACK", OR "WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF THEORY"... JUST ADMIT THAT YOU GUYS ARE FUCKING GUILTY.

QuoteSaying Ron attacked first gives him too much credit.  He hit back, in one (admittedly, memorable!) round of a slap-fight that has been going on in changing venues for decades.

Against who? PROVE IT. Show us who he was arguing with, that represented regular roleplayers as much as he represents elitist Swine-pricks like you, and show me where that person ever attacked Ron Edwards PRIOR to the GNS Essay. If you can't do this, YOU HAVE FAILED TO DEFEND THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTIONS GIVEN TO YOU.

QuoteDoes this excuse him of anything he said or did?  It does not.  He said what he said, and it's pretty offensive stuff.  

Really? Ok, against who? You can't get away with saying "Ron Edwards didn't attack regular Roleplayers, but its ok for you to feel offensive because yeah I'll go as far as admit that he was offensive to "someone" vague and uncertain who it might be, so that I don't have to take the collective blame for my fucked-up Leader's attacks on Roleplaying and my entire Movement doesn't get discredited".
If you're admitting now that he said things that were offensive, and yet you claim that he DIDN'T attack Regular Roleplayers, who the fuck was he being offensive to? Who should feel offended?!

QuoteBut there's a world of difference between excusing him (at one radical extreme) and blaming him for having cooked up the whole conflict all on his lonesome (at the other radical extreme).

Oh, he didn't do it all on his lonesome. He did it with a gang of pathetic simpering lackeys like you, that took his ever turd and proclaimed it magical, that took his every psychotic attack on people having fun and declared him a genius.

QuoteI fall somewhere in the middle:  He contributed to misunderstanding and acrimony, but he wasn't the unmoved First Mover that started it all from nothingness.

I don't think the Forge, as an entity, was even noticeable enough to attack back then, so I'd be surprised to hear of anyone attacking "The Forge" before the GNS essay.  I think they attacked other communities and ideals that Ron also valued, though.  

Who? Where? Give examples please.

QuoteAh, well, see the fun thing here is that that issue isn't up to either you or me to decide.  It's up to jrients.  I'll be interested to see whether he thinks the exchange was dodging the question.

In the meantime ... next question!

Your exchange obviously WAS dodging the question. And your pathetic little games on this site to try to take control of the modes of conversation only prove that the Forgers are literally incapable of having normal discussions, your arguments are so sad and weak that you can't defend yourself unless the other guy has his hand tied behind his back.
And this post, my friend, was to prove that even with one hand behind my back I can still kick the living shit out of you.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo you DO agree that the very foundational document of GNS-Forge theory was framed in a context that involved elitist attack-material against gamers?

I agree that the GNS document we've been talking about includes attacks, and I think it's fair to characterize them as elitist.  The "foundational" thing you cover separately below.

Quote from: RPGPunditIn this context, how can you then continue to claim that regular gamers have no basis or only imaginary causes to feel under attack from the Forge, Ron Edwards, and all his followers?

I can't (and don't) claim that nobody has cause to feel under attack by Ron.  Lots of people have good and sufficient reason to feel attacked.  I don't think [list=A]

• That it's solid reasoning to generalize from that to feeling under attack by everybody at the Forge and...
• That feeling yourself under attack means that you can strike back without being guilty of attacking people.

Quote from: RPGPunditAre you now willing to stop pussyfooting around and actually ADMIT that the Theorists had started out attacking regular gamers from the very beginning?

From the beginning of GNS theory?  Sure.  From the beginning of the conflict?  No.  Can you clarify which one you were asking?

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean shit, do you agree that the GNS essay and the Forge FAQ are the foundational documents of the Forge and GNS theory?

Nope.  Thank you for asking that separately.

Quote from: RPGPunditMy god you're a slimy pathetic son of a bitch, aren't you?

Not in my opinion.

Quote from: RPGPunditIs Ron Edwards really worth this much intellectual trouble to you, that you need to basically massacre your own credibility and reputation forever just to try to justify the man's crapulence?

I don't stick to my opinions for Ron's benefit.  I stick to them for myself.

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, what the fuck, did he die and go to hell for your sins or something?

Not that I'm aware of, no.

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat the fuck has Dear Leader got on you that you feel the need to sycophantically engage in these kinds of apologetics for him?

Not a thing.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe American Revolution, Beat Poets; can you see how people think you fuckers are unbelievably full of yourselves?

I can follow the arguments, yes.  If you're asking "Do I agree that the perception is justified?" then no ... I don't agree with the reasoning, but I do understand it.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo again, answer the motherfucking question: was the FIRST thing that Ron Edwards did in creating his Theory involve attacking Roleplayers?

Yes it did involve attacks ... in much the same way that the first thread you started upon taking over the RPGSite quickly became a platform for you to bash non-mainstream games (well before any of their adherents had had time to find you and attack you).  Big opening manifestos have a tendency toward that kind of "Hit-you-back-first" mentality, I find.

Quote from: RPGPunditAgainst who?

At a guess, I'd say against overzealous White Wolf fan-boys.  But the real answer is that I don't know with certainty.  We're talking about my best guesses about what motivated another person, long ago ... there's a lot of speculation.

Quote from: RPGPunditYOU HAVE FAILED TO DEFEND THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTIONS GIVEN TO YOU.

Well ... no.  "Failed" implies that I even tried to defend the answers.  I said right at the first post of the thread:  I'm giving answers.  I'm not arguing for them.  If you feel that my answers are wrong ... that's fine.  I'm not trying to prove that they're correct.  They're just my opinion.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you're admitting now that he said things that were offensive, and yet you claim that he DIDN'T attack Regular Roleplayers, who the fuck was he being offensive to? Who should feel offended?!

I feel that you must have misunderstood me somewhere along the line.  Ron said offensive things to roleplayers of all stripes.  I'm pretty sure I've said this, in response to your questioning, several times now.  Should I provide links?

Quote from: RPGPunditWho? Where?

Dunno specifically.  I can't read his mind.  It's just the vibe I've gotten.  You're asking more than I know on the subject ... although I expect that Ron could wax eloquent if he were so inclined.

EDIT:  Typo.

I have a few questions for you, TonyLB.  

1.Are you dating, have dated, or are related to Ron Edwards?     If not, why the fuck does rpgpundit keep asking you about him?
2. Does rpgpundit want to date Ron, or has previously dated Ron?
3. How would you feel about making a love connection between those two?
4. What are the essential features of super hero gaming, for Capes and other games.

Quote from: chuckles1.Are you dating, have dated, or are related to Ron Edwards?

No.

Quote from: chucklesIf not, why the fuck does rpgpundit keep asking you about him?

I think he feels that any argument against someone who enjoys certain type of games is also an argument against Ron-by-proxy.  As to why he feels that ... I couldn't tell you.  I'm tempted to speculate, but it would just be so much hot air on my part.

Quote from: chuckles2. Does rpgpundit want to date Ron, or has previously dated Ron?

I'm pretty sure not.

Quote from: chuckles3. How would you feel about making a love connection between those two?

"Nauseous" just about sums it up.

Quote from: chuckles4. What are the essential features of super hero gaming, for Capes and other games.

I don't think there are any essential features ... super-hero stories actually compose a tremendously broad genre, which has willy-nilly absorbed tropes and elements from fantasy, science-fiction, soap operas, noir, war stories ... the list goes on and on.

If I were to say, for instance, "a super-hero system must have abilities beyond what is naturally possible for human beings" then I deny the possibility of both a Blackhawks game (which would RAWK!) and a Gotham-only Batman game.  Normal people can be superheroes ... you can remove the superpowers, and the edifice that is "superheroes" still seems to stand, somehow.

In fact, it's such a huge, overgrown, bizarre edifice that I'm pretty sure you could take anything that looks central, pull it out brutally, and you'd find that the remainder still stands pretty well.  It's only when you really start pulling out several major pieces that things get dicey.  Supers with no powers?  Cool.  How about if they also have no secret identities?  Still cool.  No dedication to moral principles?  Things start to shake (for me) but I can still see running it.  No flashy costumes?  Still shaky, but standing.

I imagine it sort of like some bizarre Jenga.  You can take out a lot of stuff, and everything still hangs together.  Because of that, different people will choose different things in the genre, nail them down in the system, and say "Once this skeleton is locked down, everything else is optional.  It will still be superheroes."  And they can all be right, even if they pick entirely different things.

Now Capes picks the following elements:

• Supers stand for something (even if what they stand for is sick and twisted).
• Supers are both powerful and vulnerable in precisely the moments when they stand for things outside themselves.
  
• Anything can (and will) happen.

Will that be the stuff that makes everybody happy about superheroes?  Absolutely not.  But it makes some people happy ... and, to my mind, if you have that skeleton locked down then anything built on it (Buffy, Naruto, etc.) is still recognizably superheroes.

YOU HAVE FAILED TO DEFEND THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTIONS GIVEN TO YOU, no just kidding.  

How is your definition of super-hero gaming any different then your definition of adventure gaming?

And the reason I ask is that I am trying to bring more of a  super-hero feel to my D&D game, but I'm kind of stuck in that I have a fairly nebulous concept, and am having trouble implementing it.  So elaborate ...

Quote from: chucklesHow is your definition of super-hero gaming any different then your definition of adventure gaming?

My definition, right?  Not The definition?  Cool.  I'll happily give you my personal dividing line:  Which is that, for me, when your adventurer becomes more capable if you threaten (for instance) his loved ones ... then you've crossed my personal line between adventure fiction and super-hero fiction.  Indiana Jones makes hard choices in order to save Marian, but he doesn't suddenly become markedly more able to fight off Nazis when her life is on the line.  That marks it as adventure fiction to me ... the sense of a world and limits within which you try to live up to your ideals, rather than ideals to which the world responds.

I want to point out, though, that I know a lot of people whose opinions on both superheroes and adventure fiction I hugely respect who draw the dividing line elsewhere ... and sometimes not at all.

I don't feel competent to try to make any objective definition of what superheroes have to be, to all people, always.  I can't think of anyone (Stan Lee included) whom I would consider capable of that.

• Do you know chuckles?
• Do you understand why Pundit asks you these question?
• If no, would you like me to explain (I wouldn't want chuckles to be disappointed in not knowing why...)?
• Are you now, or have you ever been, a serial killer?
• Is super-heroes your favorite genre?
• Have you written any other games besides Capes?

Trying to follow this damn thread...and ...Who the HELL is CHUCKLES??
He doesn't even identify his (her?) location.

 Chuckles - whats your context?
  ...for you and your stake in this magilla ?

Oh a question for Tony: Which day was it at GenCon that I ran into you ? Did you give to the charity ? or not?


- Ed C.

Quote from: James J Skach

• Do you know chuckles?

Not that I know of ... but I have no more knowledge than you do of who's hiding behind the pseudonym.  If it's someone I know then they haven't let me in on it.

Quote from: James J Skach

• Do you understand why Pundit asks you these question?

I understand why he asks.  I'll confess myself a bit confused as to why he seems so incapable of hearing me answer.  This isn't the first time I've said "Yep, Ron sure does say offensive stuff," but we always seem to get back around to Pundit assuming that my argument is that Ron never said anything offensive to anyone.  I'm not quite sure how that happens.  I may just not be important enough in his world for him to remember what I say from one conversation to the next.

Quote from: James J Skach

• If no, would you like me to explain (I wouldn't want chuckles to be disappointed in not knowing why...)?

I'm just here for the questions.  If you want to weave in some explanation too, that's fine.  I won't respond to it, but it's a big thread ... there's plenty of room.

Quote from: James J Skach

• Are you now, or have you ever been, a serial killer?

No, I have not.  But I'm a quick learner!

Quote from: James J Skach

• Is super-heroes your favorite genre?

I can't choose between super-heroes and shojo manga ... I love them both, in very different ways.  Without question, they're my two co-favorites though.

Quote from: James J Skach

• Have you written any other games besides Capes?

Well, I've written tons.  Making homebrew systems is a hobby in its own right.  But I haven't published anything other than Capes.

Quote from: KoltarOh a question for Tony: Which day was it at GenCon that I ran into you ?

I think it was Friday, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was Saturday and I'm just misremembering.  I had trouble enough remembering what day it was at the time, much less in retrospect

Quote from: KoltarDid you give to the charity ? or not?

Not.