Quote from: Kyle Aaron;247785Nor did I say either were deserving of "sympathy". I do make a moral distinction between an organisation which at least tries to focus on military targets, and one which tries to focus on civilians, just as I make the distinction between police, even corrupt police, and outright criminals; but perhaps you do not.

I would if the organisation made a good faith effort to do so. As we've discussed before, it's my opinion (derived from the opinions of experts like Brigadier-General Nigel Aylwin-Foster, Lt-Col. Paul Yingling and others; news reports, several personal conversations with veteran American soldiers on leave, and even the fictional depictions of American soldiers' conduct in the Iraq War that are described as "realistic" by veterans like Generation Kill or Over There) that the American military in particular does not normally make such a good faith effort.

QuoteBut this thread is not about these larger issues, simply where we were and how we felt on that day. Americans are indeed worthy of mockery and critique, but it's not necessary to do it in every thread, in every time and place.

This whole topic in the thread is more of a response to CavScout than anything else. I don't blame Americans for feeling bad on 9/11 - the people injured and killed are reasonably within the sphere of their sympathy.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;247738What do I care about American soldiers? I'm not American, I don't like the American government, and American soldiers are the fist of that government.

You must care. If one didn't care one would have no reaction.

 

QuoteHow many Iraqi insurgents have you cheered at the death of?

None, actually.

Quote from: CavScout;247838You must care. If one didn't care one would have no reaction.

You misunderstood the sense of the word "care" I'm using.

QuoteNone, actually.

I doubt that, though I'm sure you won't admit to doing so now.

I'm an American, and I was actually sad less damage was done to the Pentagon.  I mean, if all those people on that plane had to die, they could have at least blown up the Temple of the War Pigs.  But they barely scratched it.

Quote from: Jackalope;248103I'm an American, and I was actually sad less damage was done to the Pentagon.  I mean, if all those people on that plane had to die, they could have at least blown up the Temple of the War Pigs.  But they barely scratched it.

:huhsign:

Quote from: CavScout;248106:huhsign:

You know, generals gathered in their masses just like witches at black masses, evil minds that plot destruction, the sorcerers of deaths construction.  They're in the fields where the bodies are burning, as the war machine keeps turning.  Death and hatred to mankind, poisoning their brainwashed minds.

Politicians hide themselves away.  They only started the war!  Why should they go out to fight?  They leave that role to the poor.  But time will tell on their power minds, making war just for fun and treating people just like pawns in chess.  Their judgement day will come.

But for now in darkness, the world stops turning as the war machine keeps burning.  Soon, no more war pigs of the power.  Barack Obama has set the hour, a day of judgement, the people are calling.  They'll be on their knees, those war pigs crawling and begging mercy for their sins, while Satan, laughing, spreads his wings.

All right now?

Wow.

 Nice way to ruin what started out as a civil and thoughtful thread.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;248148Wow.

 Nice way to ruin what started out as a civil and thoughtful thread.

Yeah, it was pretty lame of CavScout to jump into the thread and start questioning other people's comments instead of sharing his own experience.  That seriously derailed the thread.

That is what you referring to, right fucktardo?  CavScout's behavior?

Because you couldn't possibly be accusing me of ruining the thread by screwing with CavScout after he derailed it, could you?  Oh wait, yes you could.  You really are that fucking stupid.

Did you mom douche with bleach when she was pregnant with you?  Are you the result of a failed abortion attempt?  Did you live in a house with a lot of flaking lead paint as child?

I'm just trying to figure out the cause of the brain damage you display with every post you make.

To get the thread back on the original intention:

I was trying to take a nap before going to a psychotherapy office I was working at the time. My mother came in and told me 'Someone has attacked the Pentagon, and it's burning'

I was like 'Mom, that cannot be. What the hell are you talking about?' So I got up and went to the dining room, and the I saw smoke coming from the Pentagon, and then a replay of the first plane crashing on the tower.

We stayed there, watched the second hit, and had time to see both towers falling before I had to leave for work. When I got to the office, patients in the waiting room were anxious, the therapists were talking in hushed voices in the hallways, and the sessions went on about the incident a bit more than usual starting chitchat.

After work, I went to have some coffee with a friend, and she greeted me saying 'This can be the start of 3rd World War.' I was skeptic, and now I'm happy I was right.

Quote from: Jackalope;248156Yeah, it was pretty lame of CavScout to jump into the thread and start questioning other people's comments instead of sharing his own experience.  That seriously derailed the thread.

That is what you referring to, right fucktardo?  CavScout's behavior?

Because you couldn't possibly be accusing me of ruining the thread by screwing with CavScout after he derailed it, could you?  Oh wait, yes you could.  You really are that fucking stupid.

Did you mom douche with bleach when she was pregnant with you?  Are you the result of a failed abortion attempt?  Did you live in a house with a lot of flaking lead paint as child?

I'm just trying to figure out the cause of the brain damage you display with every post you make.

You know, Jack....there are many times when you bring up some truly valid points in a discussion, like when you were arguing with John Morrow and Cav on the other thread. You'd be a bit obnoxious, and wouldn't be right about everything, but it was forgivable because you're perceptive, and have many valid points. But this time, you're being an outright fucktard. Stop it.

The point of this thread is for us to express what we were doing back on 9-11. Instead, you start vomiting bile all over the thread. I don't give a two-penny fuck about your precious political views if it means you're going to piss all over a thread that addresses such a very sensitive topic. There's a time and place for a rant, and this ain't it.

Anyway, my memories of 9-11 are very dim. I remember hearing that one of the hijacked planes originated from Logan Airport in Boston, and of course I'm not too far from that general area, so my friends and family were justifiably freaked out. I was glued to the television all day, and watched utter chaos erupt in a place only a 4-hour drive away from me. I thanked my lucky stars that I didn't live in the center of a major city, but that week was not a happy thirtieth birthday for me...

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;248193You know, Jack....there are many times when you bring up some truly valid points in a discussion, like when you were arguing with John Morrow and Cav on the other thread. You'd be a bit obnoxious, and wouldn't be right about everything, but it was forgivable because you're perceptive, and have many valid points. But this time, you're being an outright fucktard. Stop it.

The point of this thread is for us to express what we were doing back on 9-11. Instead, you start vomiting bile all over the thread. I don't give a two-penny fuck about your precious political views if it means you're going to piss all over a thread that addresses such a very sensitive topic. There's a time and place for a rant, and this ain't it.

Anyway, my memories of 9-11 are very dim. I remember hearing that one of the hijacked planes originated from Logan Airport in Boston, and of course I'm not too far from that general area, so my friends and family were justifiably freaked out. I was glued to the television all day, and watched utter chaos erupt in a place only a 4-hour drive away from me. I thanked my lucky stars that I didn't live in the center of a major city, but that week was not a happy thirtieth birthday for me...

CavScout derailed the thread, you ignorant fucking cunt.

Do. Not. Take. Me. To. Task. For. Something. Someone. Else. Did. You. Fuckstick.

Quote from: Koltar;248148Wow.

 Nice way to ruin what started out as a civil and thoughtful thread.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe they can just find a firefighter's funeral to bust into so they can argue about whether or not it's the fighterfighter's fault he's dead during his eulogy...

Seanchai

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;247788I would if the organisation made a good faith effort to do so. [...] the American military in particular does not normally make such a good faith effort.

Well, this is where we get into things like the distinction between "reckless" and "intentional", thus the difference between murder and manslaughter. And then it becomes pretty difficult to speak of organisations as a whole, we have to speak of individuals, or at least individual units.

But again, I don't see what this has to do with how we felt on that day, unless what you felt was, "well with the way they behave, they had it comin'!" Which was a response I heard not on the day itself, but in the days following the attacks. It's that sort of response in people which gave me the fear of imminent conflict on the day. The same way of thinking that said "the yanks deserved it" would lead to the yanks themselves saying, "these other bastards deserve it." Thus a couple of endless wars the West has got ourselves involved in, with a few people straining at the bit for a third.

So that kind of mindless desire to lash out, the wrong idea that anyone "deserves it", that's what I felt brewing beneath the shock on that day, and that's what made me the most sad, apart of course from my personal connection to a victim of it.

I reject any way of thinking which leads to yet more intractable conflicts. So I reject the American neo-con ideas of US domination of the world, I reject the chickenhawk view that "all ragheads are terrorists, kill 'em all!", I reject Bin Laden's desperate desire for a conflict between Islam and the West so that he can become Caliph of All Islam, and I reject the lefty view of the US as an evil empire, and that the 3,000 or so who died on that day had it comin'.

It's all bullshit.

QuoteThis whole topic in the thread is more of a response to CavScout than anything else.

Well that's where you went wrong. As he almost never talks about rpgs, and the things he says about non-rpg topics are so blatantly wrong they're unworthy of discussion, I have him on ignore.

Back on topic:

I was at home that day, when my mother called me and said a plane had crashed one of the towers. Sure enough, CNN International was reporting that "a small plane" had hit the WTC. Damn luck, I thought, until I saw the second plane hit the other tower.

Live. On TV.

It took me a moment to process that. The CNN guy said they were watching a recording of the moment the first plane had crashed---except the other tower was already in flames. Then it dawned on him, and me, what had just happened.

My stepfather was listening some music in his room. I yelled him to come and watch the TV. He's a journalist, you know, and the first thing he said was: "This is war."

Just then, a friend called me to know about our next RPG session. I asked him if he was watching TV. He wasn't, and when I told him what had just happened, he couldn't believe it. I had to repeat it to him. He said he'd call me back later, and I heard him curse before he hang up.

After that, we watched when the towers came down. There were reports of truck bombs in DC, a crash in Pennsylvania, live broadcast from the Pentagon, pictures of the US Navy leaving its ports, reports that all flights had been cancelled, Bush giving a speech from a base, etc. I remember that even MTV and E! were reporting live from NY what was going on.

Security went nuts here in Montevideo that day: embassies and US or Israeli (*) institutions were surrounded by cops day and night for a while.

(*) These already had some protection, given the terrorist attacks in Buenos Aires in the 1990s.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;248520But again, I don't see what this has to do with how we felt on that day, unless what you felt was, "well with the way they behave, they had it comin'!" Which was a response I heard not on the day itself, but in the days following the attacks. It's that sort of response in people which gave me the fear of imminent conflict on the day. The same way of thinking that said "the yanks deserved it" would lead to the yanks themselves saying, "these other bastards deserve it." Thus a couple of endless wars the West has got ourselves involved in, with a few people straining at the bit for a third.

So that kind of mindless desire to lash out, the wrong idea that anyone "deserves it", that's what I felt brewing beneath the shock on that day, and that's what made me the most sad, apart of course from my personal connection to a victim of it.

I reject any way of thinking which leads to yet more intractable conflicts. So I reject the American neo-con ideas of US domination of the world, I reject the chickenhawk view that "all ragheads are terrorists, kill 'em all!", I reject Bin Laden's desperate desire for a conflict between Islam and the West so that he can become Caliph of All Islam, and I reject the lefty view of the US as an evil empire, and that the 3,000 or so who died on that day had it comin'.

It's all bullshit.

I already said I felt badly for the civilians.

The way I think about the American military is simply that they don't need or want my sympathy, and I'd rather not give it to them. I don't want them all to die or anything - I'm just not empathetic. Think of historical figures, or people on TV, or anyone else that's distanced from you in an irreconcilable way - people you don't feel sympathy for. Their woes and even their suffering are more interesting than emotionally provoking, except perhaps for a few rare instances. The members of the American government and American military are simply that for me (Most dictators and totalitarian scumbags are too, for that matter).

I actually have the reverse problem that most people do regarding the internet and real life when it comes to the American military. I've met plenty of nice fellows who are former marines etc. on the internet, and I care about them as people, but I've met or seen a fair number of American soldiers in real life, and they've almost entirely been rotten assholes.

I think you've heard most of the stories before, but I'll list them again: There was the soldier who bragged to me about killing kids in Iraq and women in Afghanistan (plus his unit-mates or whatever, who were all nodding along), there was the soldier who beat up some guy because his girlfriend said something bad about Bush (while his fellow soldiers held people off), there was the soldier who stabbed some guy to death in a club over a girl, and the parade of assholes who were hassling every girl who walked past about whether she was a prostitute. And all of that was in just four months while working a summer job in Kingston.

QuoteWell that's where you went wrong. As he almost never talks about rpgs, and the things he says about non-rpg topics are so blatantly wrong they're unworthy of discussion, I have him on ignore.

It's true, he is a pretty effective troll.