I woke up between the two plane crashes, and was taking a piss at a urinal in my dorm when a floormate walked into the bathroom and said "Someone blew up the Pentagon or something" (which hadn't actually happened yet). I cheered, then wandered over to the common room in time to see the second plane crash live into the WTC. Since I was expecting bombs and the Pentagon, I was a bit confused, especially since when it happened the news chatter stopped and the air was silent for about a minute or so. I felt a slight lurch, like history had been holding still for the entirety of my conscious life previous to that moment and had suddenly started up again unexpectedly.

I remembered being convinced that they were going to invade Afghanistan (the only other news item the TV would pull away to was fighting in Afghanistan), and I went out and bought a gas mask on a lark later that day. Since I was, then, a right-wing (well, libertarian) guy, I spent the rest of the day trying to figure out what America was going to do in response to this, mostly favouring special forces teams sniper-assassinating OBL. A buddy or two had relatives down in New York, but they were all fine.

I was cycle touring in Norway, way off the main roads. Met a German couple cycling the opposite way who were listening to the news on BBC World Service. We stopped and made camp for the night and listened to it for a while.......

....next day we decided to stay in a hostel instead of camping and ran into a group of about 35 American college kids on a school trip........listening to them crying and screaming and moaning for 12 hours straight despite the fact that none of them knew anyone in or had ever even been to New York kinda ground down most of the sympathy I had built up.......oh well.

Hey Bulya, welcome to the site, mate.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;246999I woke up between the two plane crashes, and was taking a piss at a urinal in my dorm when a floormate walked into the bathroom and said "Someone blew up the Pentagon or something" (which hadn't actually happened yet). I cheered...

:idunno:

Quote from: CavScout;247535:idunno:

So are you here to take potshots, or say what you were up to?

Quote from: NotYourMonkey;247580So are you here to take potshots, or say what you were up to?

This is an amazing reply considering I am on the only one on your ignore list.

Don't make me break out the broom.

Quote from: Werekoala;247592Don't make me break out the broom.

You'll have to excuse me... seeing someone claim they were cheering attacks on Americans seems a little odd.

This isn't about what you think about what others thought, its about what YOU thought about it.

Quote from: CavScout;247535:idunno:

What do I care about American soldiers? I'm not American, I don't like the American government, and American soldiers are the fist of that government. How many Iraqi insurgents have you cheered at the death of?

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;247738What do I care about American soldiers? I'm not American, I don't like the American government, and American soldiers are the fist of that government. How many Iraqi insurgents have you cheered at the death of?

I'm American, and get monumentally irritated at the American government, but you know what? I never cheer at a person's death, either Iraqi insurgent or American soldier. Maybe I'm a little odd though.

9-11 was a horrible day, and I think I've shut most of it out my mind. It was the week before my thirtieth birthday, and all I really remember was watching videos of those smoking buildings and realizing, with a shock (and with tears streaming down my face), that the world would never be the same again.

I also knew with absolute certainty that people would want blood for this. I shaved off my beard after the attack for fear of looking too "ethnic". Depending upon how I styled my clothing and hair, I could pass for regular white guy, Italian guy, Jewish guy, Hispanic guy, Middle Eastern guy, and probably more. I was being needlessly paranoid about this, but those were my feelings at the time. Basically, I focused on looking more "whitebread" at this time, just to play it safe...

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;247756I'm American, and get monumentally irritated at the American government, but you know what? I never cheer at a person's death, either Iraqi insurgent or American soldier. Maybe I'm a little odd though.

Firstly, I'll say that if you put idiots on ignore, these discussions go along much more smoothly.

Secondly, what you're feeling is not at all odd. All deaths are something to be avoided if at all possible. As Hornblower said, "we are not here to kill the enemy, we are here to defeat the enemy." Sometimes defeating the enemy may involve killing some of them, sometimes not. Nowadays we reject the idea that defeating the enemy will be achieved by wantonly killing civilians; it may or may not be effective, but either way we won't do it. That's what differentiates us from the way we were when we firebombed Dresden and Tokyo, and from those 19 idiots on 2001-09-11.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambI also knew with absolute certainty that people would want blood for this. I shaved off my beard after the attack for fear of looking too "ethnic". [...] Basically, I focused on looking more "whitebread" at this time, just to play it safe...

That is understandable, and you were right. Unfortunately we were defeated by the terrorists in this. In any terrorist attack, you have to ask, "What do they hope to achieve? What do they want us to do in response?" Just as right-wing terrorists in the US and Australia have hoped to start race wars, so too the Sept 11 hijackers hoped to start a vast conflict between the West and the Islamic world, one in which Islamic people in the West would be oppressed, and become radicalised and recruited. Our bigotry, our invasions of a couple of Islamic countries, was exactly what they wanted - it certainly hasn't gone as far as they hoped, but it has happened and produced a few more radicals in the West, and heaps more in the East.

What I remember feeling that day, apart from concern over the person close to me, was the dread of pointless bloody conflict ahead.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;247770Firstly, I'll say that if you put idiots on ignore, these discussions go along much more smoothly.

Secondly, what you're feeling is not at all odd. All deaths are something to be avoided if at all possible. As Hornblower said, "we are not here to kill the enemy, we are here to defeat the enemy." Sometimes defeating the enemy may involve killing some of them, sometimes not. Nowadays we reject the idea that defeating the enemy will be achieved by wantonly killing civilians; it may or may not be effective, but either way we won't do it. That's what differentiates us from the way we were when we firebombed Dresden and Tokyo, and from those 19 idiots on 2001-09-11.

I've told you this story before over IRC and at the time you were busy mocking "Seppos" without a word of condemnation. So don't pretend now that I'm telling the story publically that you're shocked by it.

Also "we"? You're an Australian, not an American, last I checked. Your military experience, for that matter, is solely in the Australian military, and we've discussed the doctrinal and operational differences between the American military and other western armies on many occasions.

Lastly, you're doing something here that you regularly accuse others of: Excluding the middle. The American military doesn't "wantonly" kill civilians, but it does deliberately kill them and it will recklessly kill them. It did so before 9/11 and it did so afterwards. Similarly, the terrorists on 9/11 didn't "wantonly" kill civilians - they deliberately killed them. Neither organisation strikes me as being deserving - or even in need - of my sympathy. I do feel bad for the civilians, as I said.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;247756I'm American, and get monumentally irritated at the American government, but you know what? I never cheer at a person's death, either Iraqi insurgent or American soldier. Maybe I'm a little odd though.

No one is a font of limitless sympathy, and pretending to be is just a rhetorical position. My position is pretty clear and simple: Sympathy for ordinary individuals, against power and its agents.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;247782I've told you this story before over IRC and at the time you were busy mocking "Seppos" without a word of condemnation. So don't pretend now that I'm telling the story publically that you're shocked by it.

Who said I was shocked by it? My own feeling is something more like Bulya's.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineLastly, you're doing something here that you regularly accuse others of: Excluding the middle. The American military doesn't "wantonly" kill civilians, but it does deliberately kill them and it will recklessly kill them.

Again, not something I'd dispute.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineNeither organisation strikes me as being deserving - or even in need - of my sympathy. I do feel bad for the civilians, as I said.

Nor did I say either were deserving of "sympathy". I do make a moral distinction between an organisation which at least tries to focus on military targets, and one which tries to focus on civilians, just as I make the distinction between police, even corrupt police, and outright criminals; but perhaps you do not.

But this thread is not about these larger issues, simply where we were and how we felt on that day. Americans are indeed worthy of mockery and critique, but it's not necessary to do it in every thread, in every time and place.