Quote from: jhkimWell, I'll certainly agree that more players is a win for the people who are selling the game.  I mean, hell, they get more than cookies -- they get dough!!

But I don't see what the people who play it win, objectively speaking.

Because I can play with anyone, at any time. I can start a new campaign and have any mix I want of new and old players every time. And I never waste time promoting the game, and I *usually* never even have to spend time teaching the game. I never have to explain why it's fun to play a bunch of tedious fucking mormons or whatever. I just yell out "D&D going on here!" throw my books in the air, and by the time it lands I have six players around a table trying to figure out who's going to play the wizard.

Seriously, you don't get why this is such a massive advantage?

Quote from: jhkimBut I don't see what the people who play it win, objectively speaking.

Support. Bookshelves full of expansions and modules to buy. Online extentions, hints, and boards full of people talking about the same game. The list is nearly endless.

Contrast all the help and exchanges one can have about D20 here and elsewhere compared to say P&G. Most gamers don't like being lonely, so buying into the the big dog on the block ensures that isn't the case.


Myself, I run solo*- I gain nothing other than what I put in myself.


*Well, myself and my gaming group

Quote from: jhkimWell, I'll certainly agree that more players is a win for the people who are selling the game.  I mean, hell, they get more than cookies -- they get dough!!

But I don't see what the people who play it win, objectively speaking.

They win weekly (or even more frequent) gaming for life without having to stress!

You guys all objectively know this of course, and some of you are even hilarious enough to resent it.

"oh no, he's one of those guys who only plays D&D..WHY?"

And the reason that nobody ever believes (because it is apparently too fucking obvious) is because the guy doesn't get into all the esoteric crap about which rule is more realistic or who is dysfunctional or why fantasy is childish or whatever. He just wants to play. He doesn't want to LEARN a game system or EXAMINE a game system or DEMO a game system or OBSESS about whatever new way there is to roll dice. He isn't stuck playing with the same 6 guys he knew in high school or the 4 guys he knew in college, half of whom have moved away. He can play with anyone. He goes to a con? He can play in any game. He sets up a game at home? He can have anyone play. And anyone he meets on ANY SINGLE ONE of his games, he can ask back and get that guy and that guys wife and three friends for next time.

It doesn't matter. he just wants to play. He can pick any game. Assume he knows about all of them. Assume he has been giving marketing materials for every game. Which one is he going to play?


COMMUNITY. COMMUNITY. COMMUNITY.

You fucks are never going to learn this until you learn it.


No offense intended. Haha.

Quote from: Abyssal MawCOMMUNITY. COMMUNITY. COMMUNITY.

Community, and the support it offers, is not necessarily system specific.

It can be company-specific across several lines, or 'scene' specific (witness big parts of the indie thing), or...    Well, anyhow.

All that said, the D&D community is the biggest, with the most benefits for members.  It's like Windows.

>>It's like Windows.

Often said as a slur. But the truth is: It's like having a telephone and a telephone book vs having a walkie talkie. The walkie talkie thing will help you talk to anyone in your range who also has a walkie talkie.. as long as it is turned on and tuned to the same frequency.

But they have to turn their radio on before they come into your range, before you can even talk.

And maybe you will connect, and maybe not. Maybe just as that one guy with a walkie talkie that corresponds to yours passes by.. he has his switched off..

But if you have a telephone and a telephone book you can talk to people you don't even know. You can leave them a message even if they aren't home.

This is not fucking rocket science, and the forgies know this just as well as I do, because most of their efforts have been made to promote community. They usually do it the wrong way, (of course) by trying to sneak in promotion and enforce loyalty through thuggery. But every once in a while you see the right way: clubs, get togethers. Meetup.com.
 
It's almost infuriating (or perhaps funny) that you guys obviously know how all this shit works, and what the benefits are and then hilariously pretend thats not how it works. John Kim pretending that D&D occupies a "slightly larger niche" than the fucking one-off production crank blows my mind, but it's important to note that Kim has never understood or "gotten" D&D no matter how many years he has spent documenting and cataloging  RPGs.

How do you guys literally miss the elephant in the room? Are you that obsessed with some starry-eyed notion of your own someday RPG writer fame and fortune? It's a pastime, people. It isn't about you. Or us.

It's something you do.

And yeah, WoW beats all of this. Do you see me resenting WoW? No. I love WoW, because I know there's a whole generation of kids out there that get why gold pieces and hit points are cool. I can invite them into my COMMUNITY without denigrating theirs, or telling them they have to choose one over the other.

PS: This last bit is something you forgie fucks ought to look into.

Quote from: Abyssal MawBecause I can play with anyone, at any time. I can start a new campaign and have any mix I want of new and old players every time. And I never waste time promoting the game, and I *usually* never even have to spend time teaching the game. I never have to explain why it's fun to play a bunch of tedious fucking mormons or whatever. I just yell out "D&D going on here!" throw my books in the air, and by the time it lands I have six players around a table trying to figure out who's going to play the wizard.

Seriously, you don't get why this is such a massive advantage?

Well, I don't generally want to start a campaign with a big group of strangers, so it wouldn't be a massive advantage for me.  It's easy for me to get games going with my friends.  As others have pointed out, there are many games which have bigger networks than D&D -- yet you're choosing to play a relatively niche game.  

So no, I don't think this is an objective win.  The thing that you are winning is not something I am interested in -- i.e. it is a matter of taste.  

Quote from: gleichmanSupport. Bookshelves full of expansions and modules to buy. Online extentions, hints, and boards full of people talking about the same game. The list is nearly endless.

Contrast all the help and exchanges one can have about D20 here and elsewhere compared to say P&G.

My opinion is that effective support is not a question of sheer volume -- similar to board traffic.  More board traffic doesn't make a forum better.  That's why I prefer to hang out on small forums like here or Story Games rather than on RPGnet or ENWorld.  Greater volume actually causes problems in that I have to filter out a lot more of the signal to noise.  I suppose my ideal would be a level of support similar to the amount of official and third-party material that I actually use.  

So, again, it's a question of preference.  It's like saying that D&D players "win" more pages of rules than players of shorter games.  More pages of rules and options isn't an objectively better thing -- again, it is a matter of taste.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThey win weekly (or even more frequent) gaming for life without having to stress!

So, like, this type of "Win" (where "win" = "I receive a benefit") has lots of room for other people doing totally different things to "win" as well, in different ways ... yes?

So much nicer than "D&D has more fans, therefore its fans win, and the rest of you lose."

Quote from: Abyssal Maw>>It's like Windows.

Often said as a slur. But the truth is: It's like having a telephone and a telephone book vs having a walkie talkie. The walkie talkie thing will help you talk to anyone in your range who also has a walkie talkie.. as long as it is turned on and tuned to the same frequency.

But they have to turn their radio on before they come into your range, before you can even talk.

And maybe you will connect, and maybe not. Maybe just as that one guy with a walkie talkie that corresponds to yours passes by.. he has his switched off..

But if you have a telephone and a telephone book you can talk to people you don't even know. You can leave them a message even if they aren't home.

This is not fucking rocket science, and the forgies know this just as well as I do, because most of their efforts have been made to promote community. They usually do it the wrong way, (of course) by trying to sneak in promotion and enforce loyalty through thuggery. But every once in a while you see the right way: clubs, get togethers. Meetup.com.
 
It's almost infuriating (or perhaps funny) that you guys obviously know how all this shit works, and what the benefits are and then hilariously pretend thats not how it works. John Kim pretending that D&D occupies a "slightly smaller niche" than the fucking one-off production crank blows my mind, but it's important to note that Kim has never understood or "gotten" D&D no matter how many years he has spent documenting and cataloging  RPGs.

How do you guys literally miss the elephant in the room? Are you that obsessed with some starry-eyed notion of your own someday RPG writer fame and fortune? It's a pastime, people. It isn't about you. Or us.

It's something you do.

AM, not looking for a fight. What are you trying to convince us to do? Declare you the winner? Admit DND is the dominant RPG? Should we stop making our pointlessly small and irrelevant games?

Just to be clear, I am not using "we" in the indie sense since I am not allowed to be indie but I think you are effectively grouping "All not DND" together right?

And for the record, I don't think I have ever had anything bad to say about DND in any version. I think it is a fun game (although I have not played 4e yet). Still, I never lack for players of Iridium except when I lack players...then I make them.

Bill

I think AM signed away his objectivity when he signed that NDA.

Quote from: Abyssal MawAnd yeah, WoW beats all of this. Do you see me resenting WoW? No. I love WoW, because I know there's a whole generation of kids out there that get why gold pieces and hit points are cool. I can invite them into my COMMUNITY without denigrating theirs, or telling them they have to choose one over the other.

Man, the folks I've seen playing D&D aren't people I'd invite anywhere. That's an objective fact.

Quote from: Abyssal MawBradford gets me, he is objectively true, and he wins!

Seriously, stop. Just stop. Unless you mean that Bradford is perfectly circular and won't wobble when spun.

Quote from: HinterWeltAM, not looking for a fight. What are you trying to convince us to do? Declare you the winner? Admit DND is the dominant RPG? Should we stop making our pointlessly small and irrelevant games?

Just to be clear, I am not using "we" in the indie sense since I am not allowed to be indie but I think you are effectively grouping "All not DND" together right?

And for the record, I don't think I have ever had anything bad to say about DND in any version. I think it is a fun game (although I have not played 4e yet). Still, I never lack for players of Iridium except when I lack players...then I make them.

Bill

Actually I'm not trying to convince you guys to do anything. I'm trying (possibly in vain) to explain why and how D&D manages to maintain it's position year after year, why people choose it, what the benefit is when you have people.. all of that stuff. Those things generally shrugged off here, but the take-away for someone like you is this: YOU COULD BE DOING THIS YOURSELF. You could be growing your business. You could be getting fans by  promotion through community efforts rather than "hey here's my cool game". Instead we get caught up in a never ending fucking discussion of "WHY OF WHY  does my favorite RPG languish in obscurity when it is soooooo superior. ??"

Fan clubs, meetups, content creation directories .. all of that stuff is not exclusive to D&D-- the entire point of community is not exclusive to D&D. Neither is gameplay talking tactics and builds.. and pure content. But that shit is often shamed here, and I find it unfortunate. And yet we have these discussions constantly about "hey what do you do to promote, how far do you have to go to get people to game with you" and I have to just laugh.

Usually I just let them float on by.

Quote from: TonyLBSo, like, this type of "Win" (where "win" = "I receive a benefit") has lots of room for other people doing totally different things to "win" as well, in different ways ... yes?

So much nicer than "D&D has more fans, therefore its fans win, and the rest of you lose."

Yeah, I had thought it was being used in a zero-sum context, as well, but apparently, he means that there are many good benefits of playing D&D. I find the benefits of playing Shadowrun greater for myself - speaking for no one else - than the benefits of playing D&D, because I do not highly value community, and do highly value aspects of the game at which Shadowrun excels. So it's nice to know that we can all win.

But it seems like, if "win" means "has benefits," people would just use the term, "has benefits." "Win" is inaccurate and inflammatory.

Quote from: jhkimMy opinion is that effective support is not a question of sheer volume -- similar to board traffic.  More board traffic doesn't make a forum better.

There is no doubt that effective support requires a certain critical mass to be effect. For example, r.g.f.a is now ineffective.

For support of AoH, no board in the world is effective.

For D20, there are so many effective boards that one gets to pick and chose for individual taste.

Seriously if this isn't clear and plain to you- I have no hope for you.

Quote from: EngineBut it seems like, if "win" means "has benefits," people would just use the term, "has benefits." "Win" is inaccurate and inflammatory.

WELCOME TO ABYSSAL MAW.