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I'm suspicious of Story-Games love for 4e

Started by walkerp, June 09, 2008, 10:36:16 PM

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Zachary The First

Quote from: Consonant DudeI don't think there's anything wrong with the Story-Games community, except when people like Ralph Mazza take cowardly, pathetic shots at TheRPGsite and there's almost a silent approval by the rest of their members.

How many of us are members on both boards?  I am.  I must have missed this.
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Consonant Dude

Quote from: Zachary The FirstHow many of us are members on both boards?  I am.  I must have missed this.

There are probably a few members of both, like Tony, you and I.

Most of them probably post mainly in one and lurk at the other, though. I know I do.
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walkerp

I appreciate that there are a lot of members of the story-games community who play or played 3.x and are looking for a new version of D&D.  I also recognize that there are a lot of them who respect the design.  It's the people who are saying that suddenly they can play D&D again like it's a big revelation.  It just seems odd.  I mean suddenly people who like to play desperate children on the streets of Krakow are all about building the optimal rogue?  How many other story-games have any tactical elements at all and now 4e a game which is almost entirely tactical is hailed as this great new game that has brought fun back to the D&D franchise?

I actually have this question for almost everybody.  4e looks kind of neat, but if it truly represents the vast majority of gamers' preferences, I am in the wrong hobby.  I would have expected more of a measured response from the story-gamers crowd at least.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

TonyLB

Quote from: walkerpI mean suddenly people who like to play desperate children on the streets of Krakow are all about building the optimal rogue?  How many other story-games have any tactical elements at all and now 4e a game which is almost entirely tactical is hailed as this great new game that has brought fun back to the D&D franchise?
Okay, two things.  

First, a statement:  YES, people who enjoy playing desperate children on the streets of Krakow can also enjoy building the optimal rogue.

Second, a question:  What is it that you're suspecting, with all this suspicion?  Do you think that people's enjoyment isn't genuine?
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Abyssal Maw

I think it's hilarious.

Part of it might be real.

Part of it is some of them want to take credit for it. Which is funny.

Part of it is-- you have to remember the forgies are intensely conformist at the heart. So if one guy likes something, and that guy has enough influence, they all have to pretend to like it.

Part of it is they are pretending to like it because they thinks it pisses you guys off, because many of you jackasses adopted a "hat of 4e" stance early.
But they probably looked at it like once.

Part of it is guys on the outside of the inner circle are confused about why they are supposed to like it and feel they are out of sync. Their conformity meters are malfunctioning!

Part of it actually is flavor of the week-ism with these guys.

Part of it is many (perhaps most) of these jackasses missed out entirely on 3E, yet spent the last decade "addressing D&D through design" without actually having ever played the current version of it or having any real knowledge of it-- Burning Wheel for example was designed and held up as a competitor to D&D3, despite the fact that Luke never played D&D3 or read it even once. So they would talk about "d20" while they actually were thinking about AD&D2e. So perhaps a few of them are either determined not to do that again, or they are just now finding out D&D has had this stuff in it for years now.

None of it matters, ultimately.
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Abyssal Maw

Quote from: walkerpI actually have this question for almost everybody.  4e looks kind of neat, but if it truly represents the vast majority of gamers' preferences, I am in the wrong hobby.  I would have expected more of a measured response from the story-gamers crowd at least.

You are indeed in the wrong hobby. Remember how you couldn't get a group during the last decade? Get ready for that again!
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walkerp

Quote from: TonyLBFirst, a statement:  YES, people who enjoy playing desperate children on the streets of Krakow can also enjoy building the optimal rogue.
Absolutely.  You, for example, have shown yourself to be just such a gamer.  All this time.  However, there are a lot of people in the story-games community who have been violently anti-trad design and specifically anti-D&D.  They make up a significant enough voice in the story-games community that it is reading to me very much like a sudden about face.
Quote from: TonyLBSecond, a question:  What is it that you're suspecting, with all this suspicion?  Do you think that people's enjoyment isn't genuine?
I think AM actually answered this question better than I can.  While I don't agree with all his assertions and I am not opposed to Story-games on philosophical grounds, a lot of what he says rings very true to me.

I'm sure people have enjoyed the game when they played it.  But they are sounding ecstatic.  Suddenly, all the objectivity and distance that promotes good analysis that is supposed to be the hallmark of story-game designers is thrown out the window?  I'm sure the game is fun, if you like tactical miniatures combat.  So now story-gamers are all about tactical miniatures combat?
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

flyingmice

Quote from: walkerpHow many other story-games have any tactical elements at all and now 4e a game which is almost entirely tactical is hailed as this great new game that has brought fun back to the D&D franchise?

Quite a few Forge-influenced games are quite tactical. They're just tactical in a different way. I don't say "story-games" because I think of these (not the site, but the games labeled as story-games) as all about the N part of GNS. D&D is all about the G. There is no S. It was put there for balance.

-clash
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walkerp

Quote from: Abyssal MawYou are indeed in the wrong hobby. Remember how you couldn't get a group during the last decade? Get ready for that again!
Well I've got a group(s) now, unfortunately time and space are the new problems. Quite annoying.  I'm not so worried though.  I think the bloom will come off the rose with 4e a lot faster than it did with 3rd.  WotC is just going to shove to much splat down people's throats and the game will be even less approachable than 3.x was for newbies and people whose main gaming goal isn't tactical miniatures.  I think after the first wave of excitement breaks, things will settle down a lot and you'll see a lot of groups moving away from 4e, either back to whatever they were doing before or on to new stuff (with 4e still being a part of their gaming repertoire).

4e just doesn't seem generalized enough to maintain such a massive hold over a hobby as diverse as ours.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

Abyssal Maw

Quote from: walkerpWell I've got a group(s) now, unfortunately time and space are the new problems. Quite annoying.  I'm not so worried though.  I think the bloom will come off the rose with 4e a lot faster than it did with 3rd.  WotC is just going to shove to much splat down people's throats and the game will be even less approachable than 3.x was for newbies and people whose main gaming goal isn't tactical miniatures.  I think after the first wave of excitement breaks, things will settle down a lot and you'll see a lot of groups moving away from 4e, either back to whatever they were doing before or on to new stuff (with 4e still being a part of their gaming repertoire).

4e just doesn't seem generalized enough to maintain such a massive hold over a hobby as diverse as ours.

Time will tell. I mean, really. We clash a lot, but time will tell, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Settembrini thinks I am wrong as well!
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gleichman

Quote from: Abyssal MawI think it's hilarious.

Part of it might be real.

Part of it is some of them want to take credit for it. Which is funny.

Part of it is-- you have to remember the forgies are intensely conformist at the heart. So if one guy likes something, and that guy has enough influence, they all have to pretend to like it.

rest of the post

Abyssal's on a roll here and is IMO quite correct.

Some of 4E plays directly to Forge Theory enough for them to embrace it for all the reasons he lists. All in all, I'd call 4E more of a victory for them than I would for the Pundit side of things. So it shouldn't be a surpise to see them praise it more.
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TonyLB

Quote from: walkerpSuddenly, all the objectivity and distance that promotes good analysis that is supposed to be the hallmark of story-game designers is thrown out the window?
Are they designing now?  Looks to me like they're sharing stories of fun that they've had.  How much "objectivity and distance" do you expect in that?

I suspect that a lot of the initial euphoria is a perceptual bias due to the fact that everyone is unfamiliar with the ruleset so far.  People who have a hard first session are not inclined to jump in and bash the game:  they're more inclined to think "Hrm ... I wonder if the rules are really bad, or if I'm just misreading them ... a lot easier to ask questions in a humble way than to go off the deep end and then look like an idiot later."

When folks are 100% sure that they're playing the game as written, and know how and why it's not working and could never work for a particular purpose (e.g. Jane Austen RPG) then you'll probably see a more balanced assortment of posts.
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

JDCorley

Quote from: walkerpHow many other story-games have any tactical elements at all...

Capes
With Great Power <---- especially this one
The Shadow Of Yesterday
Passages
Many many many many others.

Most people who post on story-games play and like a huge variety of games. A few don't, but they're rare. I've gotten great D&D suggestions and advice there in the past, even third edition. Plenty of people like D&D there and always have. They even played 3.0/3.5 extensively. It's here that's the intellectual ghetto of hate, not there.

Pseudoephedrine

This is just like back in what, 2003? When Riddle of Steel came out and the Forge went through contortions of logic that would impress a Chinese acrobat to show that it was a narrativist game instead of a fantasy heartbreaker. It too was a highly tactical game that they loved.
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The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin\'s Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
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David R

Quote from: Consonant DudeMost of them probably post mainly in one and lurk at the other, though. I know I do.

You're refering to me :D

Regards,
David R