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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: Settembrini on August 02, 2007, 03:02:22 PM

Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Settembrini on August 02, 2007, 03:02:22 PM
They only dwell because of viral marketing on the internet.
Now they come here in droves to fight the war, and get even more exposure.

Ignore!
Don´t confront!
I hereby commence the Siege.

Join me, or you´ll be playing their game.

The best weapon in this war is ignoring them to death.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Alnag on August 02, 2007, 03:04:25 PM
Yeah. It is a siege. But they siege us in that case. And your last hope is that wall of silence and ignorance. I prefere war. Or to siege them. Maybe we should pay a visit to Forge. :p
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on August 02, 2007, 03:04:47 PM
Dude, you're just another mad German in a bunker at this point.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 03:08:00 PM
Theres a war?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Settembrini on August 02, 2007, 03:11:40 PM
Alnag:

The point is, we must refute their points without engaging with them directly. Engaging them directly leads to exposure.

And that´s the last straw they have. Don´t discuss with them. It´s pointless anyway, as your luke-thread has shown. They are liars and propagandists.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: joewolz on August 02, 2007, 03:14:57 PM
Quote from: SettembriniAlnag:

The point is, we must refute their points without engaging with them directly. Engaging them directly leads to exposure.

And that´s the last straw they have. Don´t discuss with them. It´s pointless anyway, as your luke-thread has shown. They are liars and propagandists.

Get over it Sett, you're a dinosaur and they are the future.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Brantai on August 02, 2007, 03:22:16 PM
Quote from: SettembriniAlnag:

The point is, we must refute their points without engaging with them directly. Engaging them directly leads to exposure.

And that´s the last straw they have. Don´t discuss with them. It´s pointless anyway, as your luke-thread has shown. They are liars and propagandists.

As opposed to Pundit?  Yikes.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 03:23:18 PM
Quote from: SettembriniAlnag:

The point is, we must refute their points without engaging with them directly. Engaging them directly leads to exposure.

And that´s the last straw they have. Don´t discuss with them. It´s pointless anyway, as your luke-thread has shown. They are liars and propagandists.

So what youre saying is that if you people start ignoring the sop called "Swine," their games will fall out of popularity, loose support,wither and die?

What kind of power do you actually imagine yourself to posess? I mean, wether or not the community here, at this site (a marginal portion of the internet roleplaying community as a whole, I suspect) mentions the games will have little to no impact on either sales, popularity or success.

The whole concept strikes me as highly absurd anyway.

Am I misunderstanding you?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Settembrini on August 02, 2007, 03:23:32 PM
@ joewolz: Did you really just say that?

-10 reputation points.

@temple: I´m saying this site is beig flooded and subverted by swine. And that EVERY thread gives them sales, what they admit.
http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=149

Quote7. On 2006-01-12, Vincent wrote:
     Matt, Keith: that question's getting easier and easier to answer. The spikes line up pretty much to the day with threads on the Forge and RPGnet - and recently ENworld too.

Like, right now I'd guess I'm selling maybe two thirds of a book a day steady when there's no lively Forge or RPGnet thread, and then something like 3-12 books per thread on top of that.

9. On 2006-01-12, Vincent wrote:
     Oh and Andy's very right, in marginalia above - a flame war on RPGnet is CASH MONEY.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Alnag on August 02, 2007, 03:24:41 PM
Quote from: SettembriniThe point is, we must refute their points without engaging with them directly. Engaging them directly leads to exposure.

I firmly belive in mother wit of RPG players in general. I've acutally witnessed not one but several player's exposed to indie games returning to tradtional design. I belive in providing alternative to the "Forge way of thinking" rather than resign and leave them open field of activity, where they can hunt down newbies with...

"we are the future"

"the only innovation is indie-inovation"

"DM is doomed"

etc.

I agree, it is lie and propaganda. But are you really willing to let them broadcast it without anyone opposing them. I don't. I will be here to provide alternative point of view and to ask them for evidence for these claims.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Spike on August 02, 2007, 03:27:24 PM
Actually, Temple, boycotts have proven a remarkably powerful political tool in the last century. Of course, it requires getting a significant percentage of people behind you to make 'em work.  A lone nutter boycotting is no different, politically, than the chump without the money or need for the product in the first place.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 03:31:08 PM
You know, part of me believes that people like Pundit and Sett here are really working to promote the Forge and indie games.  I imagine threads like this will only push more interested parties that direction.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 03:31:17 PM
Quote from: Settembrini@temple: I´m saying this site is beig flooded and subverted by swine. And that EVERY thread gives them sales, what they admit.
http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=149

Well, any publicity is good publicity.

Still, the games being discussed in that snippet sell pretty well anyway. And as I said,I hardly think you can "kill" Forge-based rpgs by pretending they dont exist.

Quote from: Alnag"we are the future"

"the only innovation is indie-inovation"

"DM is doomed"

Geez louise, man! Its not like its the Borg were talking about here!
Why does it have to be a conspiracy to wipe traditional gaming from the face of the earth? Why cant it be a new kind of rpg among many successful, good rpgs?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: SpikeActually, Temple, boycotts have proven a remarkably powerful political tool in the last century. Of course, it requires getting a significant percentage of people behind you to make 'em work.  A lone nutter boycotting is no different, politically, than the chump without the money or need for the product in the first place.

Pretending Forge rpgs dont exist on a message board hardly constitutes a boycott, does it?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 03:34:05 PM
Quote from: TempleWell, any publicity is good publicity.

Seriously.  I never knew the Forge existed until I saw Pundit rant about it a year or so ago, and it eventually led to me buying several good indie RPGs.

Thanks, Pundit, keep up the good work!  Your "war" is very effective, oh yes.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 03:35:54 PM
Quote from: phasmaphobicSeriously.  I never knew the Forge existed until I saw Pundit rant about it a year or so ago, and it eventually led to me buying several good indie RPGs.

Thanks, Pundit, keep up the good work!  Your "war" is very effective, oh yes.

Conversely, Id never heard of the Pundit until a friend of mine did an interview with him for a norwegian rpg ezine.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Settembrini on August 02, 2007, 03:36:23 PM
Quote from: AlnagI agree, it is lie and propaganda. But are you really willing to let them broadcast it without anyone opposing them. I don't. I will be here to provide alternative point of view and to ask them for evidence for these claims.

It used to be like that:

Forgers make moronic stuff on RPG.Net. It was discussed here, and refuted here.
Now, they are making the moronic stuff over HERE, and we are preoccupied with discussing with them on our own grounds. By invitation they come!

And thusly, we lose our lighthouse powers, because we must fight the bullshit and lies right here.
That is not acceptable.

See, the Forgers are basically dead.
There is no new game since two years, that has caught any following.

RPG.Net has atrophied. So they are seeking marginal gain areas, to sell their shit. Because EVERY FLAMEWAR IS CASH for them.

So, the market is saturated, the freshness is away. But our resistance is keeping them IN the discourse. Sure, they have to follow OUR directions, they lost any control of the discourse.
But they still get new publicity, that they so desperately need, because they are in a downward spiral.

They aren´t even bringing new concepts to the internet. All old concepts ALREADY HAVE BEEN refuted.

By still fghting, we prolong the process. The threat is over, their blogs are discontionued, their new games have tanked, their theory is stale, their ashcan is in shambles, their foreign auxiliaries are deserting them.

The onyl reliable force for THEIR publicity is US, or THE WAR.

Without Flamewars, they cease to exist, as they have run their cause.

My point should be clear now. Have fun, see you in some sane discussion in the future.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Alnag on August 02, 2007, 03:37:56 PM
Quote from: TempleGeez louise, man! Its not like its the Borg were talking about here! Why does it have to be a conspiracy to wipe traditional gaming from the face of the earth? Why cant it be a new kind of rpg among many successful, good rpgs?

Because my dear, these are direct quotes (just translated) I meet with from Forge-fans. And that is even worse than Borg. This is like leeches sucking blood from traditional gaming. Subverting it on every imaginable level.

It could be new kind of rpgs, if it would not behave to its older brothers like a cuckoo. But that is happening, so if you think, I will just stand and look and do nothing, then I am sorry. But I will fight. For equality of all games, all approaches and all play-styles.

You should answer for yourself this question. Do you think, one can have discussion like this on the Forge? Do you think, the Forge would be willing to discuss the flaws of their own approach in the way that is possible here? Without moderation in favour of one kind of games only?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 03:38:42 PM
Quote from: SettembriniSee, the Forgers are basically dead.
There is no new game since two years, that has caught any following.

Hmmmm.  I don't think I see the relevance.  "Not producing new games" does not necessitate "basically dead" by any means, especially considering that all of their "big hits" are gaining popularity and reaching new audiences.  They really don't need to produce anything else to continue selling games.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 03:39:03 PM
Quote from: joewolzGet over it Sett, you're a dinosaur and they are the future.
Bollocks.  Guys like me are the future.

In 10 years this whole bunch of shit will be forgotten, but all my friends and I will still be playing the way we always have.

The Forge will collapse into obscurity, Pundit will be even further behind the times than ever, and the rest of the gaming world will continue to roll on without either of them.

Oh sure, it'll be trotted out once and awhile by old, sad fuckers, who just can't let thier irrelevant little crusade go, guys like Lev Lafayette, still fighting the "D&D vs. RQ" fight decades later.  

But the rest of gamer-kind will just be doing what they've always done:  Playing what they like to play, how they like to play it, and by and large doing a wonderful job of not fitting into the idiotic boxes some would like to stuff them into.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Spike on August 02, 2007, 03:39:38 PM
Quote from: TemplePretending Forge rpgs dont exist on a message board hardly constitutes a boycott, does it?


Sure it could. Language is fluid and adapts to the times.  If, for example, the majority of this site... and to be realistically unrealistic, the RPG.net, suddenly organized and refused to discuss or even contemplate purchacing of 'Indie Press games', then there would be, I rather suspect, a sharp decline in the already limited sales of said games.

It would be, then, a boycott in fact, rather just in concept.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 03:40:59 PM
Quote from: AlnagYou should answer for yourself this question. Do you think, one can have discussion like this on the Forge? Do you think, the Forge would be willing to discuss the flaws of their own approach in the way that is possible here? Without moderation in favour of one kind of games only?

Have you ever actually posted anything to the Forge?  Elitism aside, they encourage lots fo discussions on lots of different subjects, and only moderate against jackassery and flamewars.

If you were to go over there ignorant and guns-a-blazin', yeah, you'd get moderated to oblivion.

Here's a suggestion: why don't you actually try to bring this discussion over there?  You know, be civil?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Settembrini on August 02, 2007, 03:42:40 PM
Everyone who wants to get rid of the Forgers should stop talking with them in public. Should not talk about any of their games.

Really, all criticisms have been made. By endlessly repeating it, we help them more than we damage them.

Thusly, cease fire, let the bastards sink back to the irrelevance they deserve.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 03:43:31 PM
Quote from: SpikeSure it could. Language is fluid and adapts to the times.  If, for example, the majority of this site... and to be realistically unrealistic, the RPG.net, suddenly organized and refused to discuss or even contemplate purchacing of 'Indie Press games', then there would be, I rather suspect, a sharp decline in the already limited sales of said games.

It would be, then, a boycott in fact, rather just in concept.
The only differenec between Fred Phelps, and the raving homeless guy on the average downtown city block, is media attention.

If you want something to go away, if you think it's irrelevant, the last thing you really want to be doing is giving it more attention.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 02, 2007, 03:43:43 PM
Eh. Whatever dude.

I'll tell you: I'm not exactly threatened by the forge (or "indies" or "swine"). I've lost far more players to:
1) bad trad books and a sense of entitlement (though I confess that the trend away from trusting the GM is problematic here, but really, it's just about ego.)
2) bad (IMO) trad games

... than I have ever lost or am likely to lose due to "indie" or "forgites" or "swine."

Actually some of their ideas are pretty cool, if you just dig them out from the non-coolness of some games they are attached to.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Alnag on August 02, 2007, 03:46:00 PM
Quote from: phasmaphobicIf you were to go over there ignorant and guns-a-blazin', yeah, you'd get moderated to oblivion.

Here's a suggestion: why don't you actually try to bring this discussion over there?  You know, be civil?

Because I have seen how it goes on. Once you are not in general agreement with the ultimate truth, you will be analyzed, why you are actually posting, and patronized by uncle Ron. I have seen it in any at least a bit interesting thread there. So no, thanx. I prefere freedom of speach here, where the problem can actually be discussed and not just swept under the carpet.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Brantai on August 02, 2007, 03:47:14 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadEh. Whatever dude.

I'll tell you: I'm not exactly threatened by the forge (or "indies" or "swine"). I've lost far more players to:
1) bad trad books and a sense of entitlement (though I confess that the trend away from trusting the GM is problematic here, but really, it's just about ego.)
2) bad (IMO) trad games

... than I have ever lost or am likely to lose due to "indie" or "forgites" or "swine."

Actually some of their ideas are pretty cool, if you just dig them out from the non-coolness of some games they are attached to.
I particularly like the dm-advice bits of Burning Wheel revised, myself.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Settembrini on August 02, 2007, 03:50:01 PM
See? Even this thread is used as a propaganda instrument.
names are named, people are referenced, good things are said.

Now this is a necessary evil for the thread to end the war.
But even as we discuss, it happens.

This shall be the last post in which I brought any attention whatsoever to the forge.
I URGE everyone who is interested in their online-demise to do likewise.
Try it, one week, and see how different things will be around here.

Try it. One week. Then decide for yourself.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 03:50:47 PM
Quote from: AlnagI prefere freedom of speach here, where the problem can actually be discussed and not just swept under the carpet.

I get the feeling you're not entirely aware of what discussion is.  When speaking with people who are passionate about their games, damn right they're going to include analyzation of your questions into that discussion.  Things only get swept away if you let them.

And here, this isn't much discussion.  Looking at the threads that get the most attention, I see a lot of "Man fuck the Swine!" followed by a chorus of "yeah fuck em!" and a handful of "No, fuck YOU!"

That's not discussion.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: SettembriniSee? Even this thread is used as a propaganda instrument.
names are named, people are referenced, good things are said.

Dude, you started it.

Like I said, you're really working to promote the Forge, with ingenious little thread gems like this one.  Just admit it.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Brantai on August 02, 2007, 03:52:50 PM
Quote from: SettembriniSee? Even this thread is used as a propaganda instrument.
names are named, people are referenced, good things are said.

Now this is a necessary evil for the thread to end the war.
But even as we discuss, it happens.

This shall be the last post in which I brought any attention whatsoever to the forge.
I URGE everyone who is interested in their online-demise to do likewise.
Try it, one week, and see how different things will be around here.

Try it. One week. Then decide for yourself.
This is going to be awesome
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James J Skach on August 02, 2007, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: TempleStill, the games being discussed in that snippet sell pretty well anyway.
Don't take this the wrong way - cause I certainly haven't accomplished what these folks who have sold 2000 copies of a game have done - but pretty well?  I mean, this is part of the thing that I think needs to be challenged.  Pretty well compared to what? And that's not being snarky...I mean, really - what was the goal?

Even taking the numbers Koltar gave us from Comic and Game Retailes (or whatever it was), if calculated, would give us some like 27,000 D&D books in a month - yes (Average of 27 and 1,000 Gaming stores)? GURPS, one of the most crunchy, GM centric games is selling 2000 a month.

So, congrats to anyone who has sold 100 copies of something that was a work of passion.  Good on ya, mate. But when people say pretty well, I wish it would always be accompanied by "for a micro-press operation" or something.

Quote from: TempleGeez louise, man! Its not like its the Borg were talking about here!
Why does it have to be a conspiracy to wipe traditional gaming from the face of the earth? Why cant it be a new kind of rpg among many successful, good rpgs?
Well, I think people that say things like "GM Fiat is damaging/corrosive to the hobby" require some sort of understanding and response. It doesn't have to be a conspiracy.  It just needs to be said over and over and parroted in enough places that people think it's true - without any objective measure of fact involved.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Alnag on August 02, 2007, 03:53:40 PM
Quote from: SettembriniTry it. One week. Then decide for yourself.

You know. I will give you that one week... I will make it a cease-fire for that time. Discussing just games we like and such. But let me tell you, I doubt it will work. I am bit unsettled by that sudden income of so many youg indie designers with "good intentions" in late weeks, that I think we are actually under last attack right now. I hope, you are right. See you next week here for evaluation than.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 03:54:58 PM
Quote from: AlnagBecause my dear, these are direct quotes (just translated) I meet with from Forge-fans. And that is even worse than Borg. This is like leeches sucking blood from traditional gaming. Subverting it on every imaginable level.

It could be new kind of rpgs, if it would not behave to its older brothers like a cuckoo. But that is happening, so if you think, I will just stand and look and do nothing, then I am sorry. But I will fight. For equality of all games, all approaches and all play-styles.

You should answer for yourself this question. Do you think, one can have discussion like this on the Forge? Do you think, the Forge would be willing to discuss the flaws of their own approach in the way that is possible here? Without moderation in favour of one kind of games only?

Heh, were championing the same cause: Equality for all games.

As Ive said, the Forge can be aggravating. There are people there who are full of themselves, and the rpg-theory they spawn can be interpreted as both benign and malignant. There is no doubt in my mind that it in turn spawns elitism among some.
But what is happening here is equally bad, IMO. Instead of seeing these new games as an enrichment, and alowing the ego-strokers to stroke their egoes in peace, theRPGsite is spewing hate and vitriol that can only make things worse.

So practice what you preach,squire. Equality for all games. Dont give "the enemy" (which are those who equate "new" with "better.") more power. Because to me, that is whats happening right now.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 03:57:14 PM
Quote from: SpikeSure it could. Language is fluid and adapts to the times.  If, for example, the majority of this site... and to be realistically unrealistic, the RPG.net, suddenly organized and refused to discuss or even contemplate purchacing of 'Indie Press games', then there would be, I rather suspect, a sharp decline in the already limited sales of said games.

It would be, then, a boycott in fact, rather just in concept.

Yes, yes it would. That is the very definition of a boycott in practice.

Pretending that Forge rpgs dont exist as far as theRPGsite is concerned, however, is not.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 04:00:03 PM
Quote from: SettembriniThusly, cease fire, let the bastards sink back to the irrelevance they deserve.
How are they irrelevant?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 04:05:06 PM
Quote from: James J SkachPretty well compared to what?

Not compared to anything?

Just.. You know.. Pretty well? As in, not horribly? As in, not incredibly well?

If you have to compare it to soemthing to make sense of it,then try this: They sell pretty well compared to how they would have sold if they were "irrelevant."

There are people who want them, because they think they are fun to play. These people buy them. Theres really nothing more to it.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Brantai on August 02, 2007, 04:07:23 PM
Quote from: TempleHow are they irrelevant?
Didn't you hear?  He's not talking about them for at least a week.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 02, 2007, 04:09:48 PM
Quote from: SettembriniSee? Even this thread is used as a propaganda instrument.
names are named, people are referenced, good things are said.

Now this is a necessary evil for the thread to end the war.
But even as we discuss, it happens.

This shall be the last post in which I brought any attention whatsoever to the forge.
I URGE everyone who is interested in their online-demise to do likewise.
Try it, one week, and see how different things will be around here.

Try it. One week. Then decide for yourself.

Your probably right. The existence of this forum and its fixation on slighting or resisting the tide of indie games probably helps get the word out.

But, despite not liking or in some cases rather actively disliking the shape of indie games, I'm just not invested in stemming that tide. Players who do find something to their liking will find it there; those that don't (even if I'm numbered among them) won't. Us discussing indie games is not going to make the gaming populace convert to indie games like wildfire.

Now on the other hand, people who play XXXXXX XXXXXX AND XXXXXXX XXX XXXXXXXX could affect my player base and we shouldn't talk about those games. :emot-ssh:
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: TempleYes, yes it would. That is the very definition of a boycott in practice.

Pretending that Forge rpgs dont exist as far as theRPGsite is concerned, however, is not.
Worked for RPGnet for a very long time.  I wouldn't say they necessarily pretended they didn't exist, so much as it just didn't come up hardly ever.  There had been a few GNS flamewars sometime before, and I think that led a lot of people to just dismiss it as a bunch of useless nonsense, not least because no one could actually agree on what any of the terms really meant.

In those days, the Forge pretty much stayed on the Forge.  Then Ron declared the Gospel of the Big Model.  Shut down the theory debate forum, declaring that any future discussion was unnecessary.  Post haste, all the navel gazers had to find new places to babble incoherently, and all the GNS/Ron loyalists had to go into into the world and declare the newly canonized gospel.  

And the resulting shitstorm of a culture clash, as ex-Forgies and Forge-lovers alike began flooding RPGnet and elsewhere; the ensuing flames ultimately doing more to increase the presence and awareness of the Forge and it's "theory" than anything that had been done prior put together.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 04:12:38 PM
Quote from: TempleHow are they irrelevant?
They always were irrelevant.  They just forgot it for a time.  As have a number of people here.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 04:12:53 PM
Quote from: BrantaiDidn't you hear?  He's not talking about them for at least a week.

Well, then he can come back here in a weeks time and answer me, if he wants to. :)
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James J Skach on August 02, 2007, 04:13:21 PM
Quote from: TempleNot compared to anything?

Just.. You know.. Pretty well? As in, not horribly? As in, not incredibly well?

If you have to compare it to soemthing to make sense of it,
I don't have to.  You are implying something when you say pretty well.  It's a nice, easy thing to say because everyone will project their own ideas on to it. I'm asking you to provide some more detail so I can understand what you mean when you say it so as to avoid confusion in coversation.

You say pretty well, and I think "What? It's like, 4% of GURPS!" When what you really mean is "it's not completely irrelevant - some people somewhere like it."

Now that's cleared up for me.

Quote from: TempleThere are people who want them, because they think they are fun to play. These people buy them. Theres really nothing more to it.
I agree.  nothing more to it.  Which is why I'm continually perplexed when statements are made about the objective weakness or superiority of this or that.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 04:13:27 PM
Quote from: J ArcaneThey always were irrelevant.  They just forgot it for a time.  As have a number of people here.

Hardly a persuasive argument. ;)
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 04:14:39 PM
Quote from: James J SkachI agree.  nothing more to it.  Which is why I'm continually perplexed when statements are made about the objective weakness or superiority of this or that.

Me too. Its really hard to fathom.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 04:18:01 PM
Quote from: TempleHardly a persuasive argument. ;)
TheRPGsite, RPGnet, The Forge, ENworld, et al are basically all irrelevant to the greater body of the hobby at large in the real world.  By and large they don't even serve as a representative sample of it.

THe fact that the Forge itself is, even now, a pretty small minority among the online community, only cements that.  They are more visible now, thanks to events like the Theory forum closing, and the unwarranted attention given him by folks on sites like this, but their actually numbers aren't even realyl that much more than they were 5 or 10 years ago.  

They're a niche of a niche of a niche that isn't even terribly appealing to aanyone outside that niche.  And to top it off, their lead man is a complete nutter, who says things like how playing Vampire is like child abuse.

They deserve irrelavancy the same way HYBRID guy or FATAL guy do.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 04:18:43 PM
Quote from: J ArcaneAnd the resulting shitstorm of a culture clash, as ex-Forgies and Forge-lovers alike began flooding RPGnet and elsewhere; the ensuing flames ultimately doing more to increase the presence and awareness of the Forge and it's "theory" than anything that had been done prior put together.

I really dont understand how the Big Model and GNS can be harmful.. I mean, theyre just tools for understanding what rpgs are.

You dont buy into them? Well, thats perfectly ok! Lots of theories have dissidents, and a theory about somthing as ephemeral as roleplaying (asopposed to hard, physical phenomena) can never be "proven" in any case.

I dont hate String theory. Why do so many people hate GNS and the Big Model?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 04:19:54 PM
Quote from: J ArcaneTheRPGsite, RPGnet, The Forge, ENworld, et al are basically all irrelevant to the greater body of the hobby at large in the real world.  By and large they don't even serve as a representative sample of it.

True.
But how are the actual roleplaying games coming out of these communities irrelevant? Irrelevant in what context?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James McMurray on August 02, 2007, 04:20:52 PM
Quote from: Settembrini@ joewolz: Did you really just say that?

-10 reputation points.

@temple: I´m saying this site is beig flooded and subverted by swine. And that EVERY thread gives them sales, what they admit.
http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=149

Interesting. So this thread is basically:

1) fidn out that threads about the Forge make them money

2) decide that you don't want the Forge to make money

3) start a thread about the Forge

Ummm.... Yeah. That'll work. :rolleyes:
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 02, 2007, 04:27:06 PM
Quote from: James McMurrayInteresting. So this thread is basically:

1) fidn out that threads about the Forge make them money

2) decide that you don't want the Forge to make money

3) start a thread about the Forge

Precisely. I have my gaming hatreds and insecurities, just like any internet wanker with an over-inflated sense of self-importance.

But really, when I really don't like something, I just don't talk about it.

And yes, much like Sett, I chafe a bit when people keep on talking about it without me. But at that point, I've pretty much reached the end of my influence except to talk about something else that I do like.

Speaking of which, I think it's high time for a Spycraft thread or two, don't you? ;)
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 04:31:24 PM
Quote from: TempleI really dont understand how the Big Model and GNS can be harmful.. I mean, theyre just tools for understanding what rpgs are.

You dont buy into them? Well, thats perfectly ok! Lots of theories have dissidents, and a theory about somthing as ephemeral as roleplaying (asopposed to hard, physical phenomena) can never be "proven" in any case.

I dont hate String theory. Why do so many people hate GNS and the Big Model?
Dude, you're talking about a theory that's founded on nothing more than "My tastes are objectively right, all other tastes are evil."  Are you really so clueless as to miss that shit completely?  It's not even subtext, the guy comes out and says that shit plain as day, it's right there, the "literal brain damage", the comparing Vampire to actual child abuse, the works.  

GNS isn't a theory, it isn't analysis, it's a hamhanded justification of one guy's ignorance, nothing but subjective taste and bad game experience generalized to all gaming, and tarted up with pseudo intellectual language to try and make it seem objective.  The GNS terms themselves effectively have no real definition, becasue even Ron himself just calles whatever game he likes "narrativist", and uses the other two terms as labels to slap on whatever he doesn't.

It's just one lone nutter who managed to get an audience of fans by appealing to their sense of elitism, and targeting individuals who've had bad game experiences in the past by overinflating those experiences' relevance to the hobby at large.

The whole thing boils down to "I had a bad game once, therefeor all games like it are evil."  It's fundamental core is such broken non-logic that it's effectively useless.  

Seriously, this is bat country here.  This is Fred Phelps, Jack Thompson, Byron Hall, C++, and the crazy guy on the street who smells like dead cat and keeps going on about the brain worms.  

But for the random throw of fate and a few clever PR moves, all of them would would pretty much be the crazy homeless guy.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 02, 2007, 04:35:34 PM
Quote from: J Arcane"My tastes are objectively right, all other tastes are evil."

See, I dont see any of that when I read theory-discussions about Forge theories. I dont understand why you do. It might just be me thats wrong, it might be you. I dont know.
All I know is that as a designer and a part of the norwegian design community, I see a lot of usefullness and value in GNS and the Big Model, and I know tons of other people who do too. People who have nothing against traditional roleplaying games.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 02, 2007, 04:48:01 PM
Quote from: TempleSee, I dont see any of that when I read theory-discussions about Forge theories. I dont understand why you do.

I don't see that when I read GNS/the big model. I feel like its more a jargon set that has been finessed into uselessness and I think its' creators think wrongly that it represents something more pure and true than what it is, which is an observation and codification.

Brain Damage, on the other hand does have that whiff. As do some other rantings I've read from Ron and Clinton.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 04:52:26 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadBrain Damage, on the other hand does have that whiff. As do some other rantings I've read from Ron and Clinton.


That's just it.  Ron and Clinton.  Two guys.  Maybe a handful of others.

Where's all the rest of the drivel, though?  Can someone provide examples of all the hate that you folks believe the "swine" are stirring up?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Brantai on August 02, 2007, 04:53:31 PM
Quote from: phasmaphobicThat's just it.  Ron and Clinton.  Two guys.  Maybe a handful of others.

Where's all the rest of the drivel, though?  Can someone provide examples of all the hate that you folks believe the "swine" are stirring up?
Must this discussion happen again?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on August 02, 2007, 04:55:31 PM
I find GNS and the big model (and most other RPG theory to boot) intellectually defective, and I find the proselytising really annoying, but that's about it for me. On the other hand, I find the other side to be just as intellectually dubious and their proselytising just as annoying much of the time.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 04:56:43 PM
Quote from: BrantaiMust this discussion happen again?

Sure.  Why not.  Sett got it started (again?), someone might as well follow through.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 02, 2007, 04:57:24 PM
Quote from: phasmaphobicThat's just it.  Ron and Clinton.  Two guys.  Maybe a handful of others.

Oh, certainly. I know plenty of folks over at the forge who are very smart, creative guys who lack that arrogant air. Just like this board, it's a board of individuals. But Ron and Clinton are sort of leaders on the board, and pretty much call the shots over there, so I think that a lot of what they said gets associated with the forge (right or wrong.)

That said, do you think it's fair to say that there is a good percentage of the forge that believe in the brain damage rant?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Brantai on August 02, 2007, 04:58:40 PM
Similar to how Pundit's ranting gets associated with this board.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on August 02, 2007, 04:59:02 PM
Quote from: phasmaphobicThat's just it.  Ron and Clinton.  Two guys.  Maybe a handful of others.

Where's all the rest of the drivel, though?  Can someone provide examples of all the hate that you folks believe the "swine" are stirring up?

Most folks are reluctant to go hunting for it, especially because the worst of it happened on RPG.net, which doesn't have a working search function, or the Forge, which most folks here don't have accounts at.

If you'll accept my testimony, it did indeed happen, and just as much vitriol was hurled back at them. It's not really the sort of situation in which anyone has clean hands. Folks get worked up and say some really dumb and nasty shit to one another.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 05:00:42 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadOh, certainly. I know plenty of folks over at the forge who are very smart, creative guys who lack that arrogant air. Just like this board, it's a board of individuals. But Ron and Clinton are sort of leaders on the board, and pretty much call the shots over there, so I think that a lot of what they said gets associated with the forge (right or wrong.)

So turning that same eye back here, who are the leaders, and what are their reputations?  Pundit and VIB300s (Vitriolic Intolerance Bot 300-series) like Sett?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 05:01:42 PM
Quote from: PseudoephedrineI find GNS and the big model (and most other RPG theory to boot) intellectually defective, and I find the proselytising really annoying, but that's about it for me. On the other hand, I find the other side to be just as intellectually dubious and their proselytising just as annoying much of the time.
This is pretty much the whole of my position, summed up in a paragraph.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 05:02:43 PM
Quote from: PseudoephedrineFolks get worked up and say some really dumb and nasty shit to one another.

That's because the Internet is Serious Business
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Brantai on August 02, 2007, 05:03:35 PM
Quote from: phasmaphobicSo turning that same eye back here, who are the leaders, and what are their reputations?  Pundit and VIB300s (Vitriolic Intolerance Bot 300-series) like Sett?
Pundit's certainly the most visible.  I'm not sure I'd consider Sett a leader, so much as a toady.  Kyle may or may not count as a community leader, depending on who you ask.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 02, 2007, 05:05:09 PM
Quote from: phasmaphobicSo turning that same eye back here, who are the leaders, and what are their reputations?  Pundit and VIB300s (Vitriolic Intolerance Bot 300-series) like Sett?

I'm sure to some extent that's true, too. Again, right or wrong.

However, at the same time, is the environment of the forge such that the posters there took Ron to task there the same way that RPGPundit got taken to task here for things that he said that our out of line with the rest of the board? (I seem to remember his "culture of smoking" rant got smacked around by the natives here.)
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 05:07:51 PM
Quote from: Caesar SlaadI'm sure to some extent that's true, too. Again, right or wrong.

However, at the same time, is the environment of the forge such that the posters there took Ron to task there the same way that RPGPundit got taken to task here for things that he said that our out of line with the rest of the board? (I seem to remember his "culture of smoking" rant got smacked around by the natives here.)

Honestly, I'm not sure.  I don't see much direct posting by Ron when I visit, and mostly just some really good discussions on gaming and game design, promotions of playtesting, and a tight community that sometimes gets a little more introspective about things than really needs be.  I don't see any real vitriolic stuff, though, and everyone seems to get along, even the newcomers.

They're just gamers who play different games.  OMG EVERYONE PANIC.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on August 02, 2007, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: BrantaiPundit's certainly the most visible.  I'm not sure I'd consider Sett a leader, so much as a toady.  Kyle may or may not count as a community leader, depending on who you ask.

Kyle's a good fellow though. I find his criticisms of Forge theory to have far more bite than Pundit and Sett's because he tries to engage them in rational debate and to directly engage with what they're saying. He does the old trick of taking what the RPG theory types say more seriously than they do.

I don't think he qualifies as a community leader though.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Brantai on August 02, 2007, 05:09:42 PM
Yeah, I'm iffy on that myself.  He was attempting that whole posting manifesto a bit ago, which if it catches on certainly has the potential to vault him into the position.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on August 02, 2007, 05:12:54 PM
Phasma> The trick is that this whole "war" or whatever you want to call it is much calmer than it was a few years ago (2004-2006 seemed to be the most intense period). Even the arguments are years-old at this point. You're not going to find a ton of new material on either side right now - everyone's retreated behind their castle walls. Things are still simmering, of course.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 05:18:08 PM
Quote from: PseudoephedrineThings are still simmering, of course.

Here, definitely.  Posts like this prove that point easily.  But not so much on the Forge or Story Games.  A lot of game discussion, and SG even has some good D20 threads.  The Forge is a lot quieter these days, but the discussions do seem to be mostly about critiques, reviews, design help, and actual play.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James J Skach on August 02, 2007, 05:19:04 PM
Guys...can't you see it?

"Where's the posts that cause so much hostility?  I mean it's just Ron and Clinton"

"They are just people playing other games - you're overreacting!"

"Isn't Pundit the same exact thing as Ron?"

Man...like I haven't heard this line of approach before.

This is exactlywhy Sett is wrong about Analg's direct questions threads.  I know far more about exactly where Luke stands now on GM Fiat as opposed to, say, Tony.  Whereas deal with spasmodic here is going to be boxing with shadows.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 05:24:44 PM
Quote from: James J SkachWhereas deal with spasmodic here is going to be boxing with shadows.

I am pretty good at shadow puppets.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on August 02, 2007, 05:29:29 PM
Quote from: phasmaphobicHere, definitely.  Posts like this prove that point easily.  But not so much on the Forge or Story Games.  A lot of game discussion, and SG even has some good D20 threads.  The Forge is a lot quieter these days, but the discussions do seem to be mostly about critiques, reviews, design help, and actual play.

RPG.net still shows it from time to time, though the mods' willingness to warn and ban folks who get into theory arguments keeps it below the surface these days.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: phasmaphobic on August 02, 2007, 05:31:32 PM
Quote from: PseudoephedrineRPG.net still shows it from time to time, though the mods' willingness to warn and ban folks who get into theory arguments keeps it below the surface these days.

I will definitely agree with you there.  RPG.net tends to be full of way more flaming garbage than Pundit could ever hope to shit out in a drunken storm of mudslinging.  I try to only go there if I absolutely have to.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: David R on August 02, 2007, 06:38:34 PM
Poor Pundit, in this WAR he needed a Rommel, what he got instead is a Klink.

Regards,
David R
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: joewolz on August 02, 2007, 08:05:57 PM
YAY!  I got quoted!

I feel bad for the loss of reputation, and J Arcane, what you said is what I am thinking.

Except, the bulk of game designers are hard core like those of us who post on the internet, and the Forge and GNS are helping to define and inform the design work coming out now.

Even if the only influence is active denial of influence (re: Clash), you cannot deny that new games are being influenced by what's going on there.  Well, you can deny it, but you'd be wrong.

I think the "war" is ridiculous,  and will be forever.  I am a gamer, and I play games.  Doesn't matter what they're about, what kind of strange mechanics they have, or what kind of whacked out theory is behind them.  Last week I played FtA! on Sunday and Dogs in the Vineyard on Tuesday.

I am the future.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: droog on August 02, 2007, 08:38:19 PM
I ran InSpectres last night for some old-school guys who know nothing of the War. We had a great time.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Tyberious Funk on August 02, 2007, 08:46:10 PM
Quote from: droogI ran InSpectres last night for some old-school guys who know nothing of the War. We had a great time.

Liar.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: droog on August 02, 2007, 08:48:34 PM
Quote from: Tyberious FunkLiar.
Oh, fuck, how did I give myself away?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: David R on August 02, 2007, 08:50:49 PM
Quote from: droogOh, fuck, how did I give myself away?

You said "guys" only girls would be interested in a game like that.

Regards,
David R
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Tyberious Funk on August 02, 2007, 08:54:19 PM
Quote from: droogOh, fuck, how did I give myself away?

Because unless they were playing AD&D, there is NO WAY they could have possibly been having fun. Not for real.
 
I think they were faking it.
 
Yeah, I know. It hurts. It always hurts the first time you find out.  But it's not your fault.  It doesn't make you any less of a GM.  Some players never really enjoy themselves, except during solo play.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: droog on August 02, 2007, 08:55:37 PM
Quote from: David RYou said "guys" only girls would be interested in a game like that.
You mean 'only bitches'....
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: droog on August 02, 2007, 08:57:47 PM
Quote from: Tyberious FunkYeah, I know.  It hurts.  It always hurts the first time you find out.
It sounded so real!

Oh, well, as long as I got my rocks off.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: David R on August 02, 2007, 08:58:02 PM
Quote from: droogYou mean 'only bitches'....

or "girlie men"...and besides even if you were playing InSpectres you really would not be playing a game, you would be writing a novel.

Regards,
David R
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 02, 2007, 09:00:56 PM
I don't think we have any community leaders here, we just have a few people who post more often than others. The loudest guy in the crowd is not necessarily leading the crowd. Me, I've been posting less lately because of bullshit threads like this which belong in Game Theory & Design or Off Topic. I've posted about my own game, and I'm a bit skint at the moment so I've not been able to buy new ones to talk about them. So that leaves replying to topics other raise, which have as I said largely been bullshit.

Droog, I'd be interested to hear about the InSpectres game, if you'd like to start a thread talking about it. Some time ago (probably years, actually!) I was supposed to join one run by Claire someone or other here in Melbourne, but it didn't take off. I thought it looked interesting.

And if you didn't really run the game, I'm confident in your ability to make something interesting up for us :D
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 09:01:44 PM
QuoteEven if the only influence is active denial of influence (re: Clash), you cannot deny that new games are being influenced by what's going on there. Well, you can deny it, but you'd be wrong.

Total circular bullshit.  You realize that what you've just said amounts to "Even if they affected your designs not a whit, they've affected your designs!"
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: joewolz on August 02, 2007, 09:44:20 PM
Quote from: J ArcaneTotal circular bullshit.  You realize that what you've just said amounts to "Even if they affected your designs not a whit, they've affected your designs!"

I believe I said they effected current designs.  No, the denial of them effecting your design is an effect.  It's a conscious decision to deny their influence, which is de facto influence.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Pierce Inverarity on August 02, 2007, 09:47:32 PM
Quote from: David RYou said "guys" only girls would be interested in a game like that.

Wait, droog is a girl?

Hey, baby.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 09:48:13 PM
Quote from: joewolzI believe I said they effected current designs.  No, the denial of them effecting your design is an effect.  It's a conscious decision to deny their influence, which is de facto influence.
Quibble over a vowel aside, that's still asinine circular logic if ever I heard it.

The Forge has nothing whatsoever to do with my own designs, so of course that means it must have sometihng to do with them?

That's patently ridiculous on it's face.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Thanatos02 on August 02, 2007, 09:54:15 PM
Quote from: joewolzI am the future.

What about me? I'm working on a game right now.... but if I'm not the future, maybe I'll just keep it here on my laptop.

:: pats laptop fondly ::

So, I mean, you're sharing the future, right? :D
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Thanatos02 on August 02, 2007, 10:01:04 PM
Quote from: BrantaiYeah, I'm iffy on that myself.  He was attempting that whole posting manifesto a bit ago, which if it catches on certainly has the potential to vault him into the position.

This has all the workings of a role-playing game.

Plus, now I'm curious as to how others would cast posters roles in the community here. It's dubious wankery to be sure, as much as 'stat yourself up' ever was, really, but interesting on kind of an embarressing level.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 02, 2007, 10:20:59 PM
Quote from: Pierce InverarityWait, droog is a girl?
Hairiest chick I ever met.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: droog on August 02, 2007, 10:24:49 PM
I don't like German boys, anyway.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: joewolz on August 02, 2007, 10:25:28 PM
Quote from: J ArcaneQuibble over a vowel aside, that's still asinine circular logic if ever I heard it.

The Forge has nothing whatsoever to do with my own designs, so of course that means it must have sometihng to do with them?

That's patently ridiculous on it's face.

And yet you feel the need to deny it?  And you're sure it has nothing to do with your game?  I take it you've never played a Forge game before?  

If you haven't, then you're right, but your opinion no longer matters to me when these kinds of games enter the conversation.  Your opinion would be from a stance of complete ignorance.

If you have played any Forge games, and consciously rejected their way of doing things, then I would be absolutely certain your games' designs were influenced by the Forge.  It's a negative influence in this case, one in which your design become consciously not a Forge game (or something similar).  We're not measuring influence here, just that it exists.

Like it or not (and I'm ambivalent on it, really), the impact of the "Indie" game movement has been pretty huge.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: joewolz on August 02, 2007, 10:26:06 PM
Quote from: Thanatos02What about me? I'm working on a game right now.... but if I'm not the future, maybe I'll just keep it here on my laptop.

:: pats laptop fondly ::

So, I mean, you're sharing the future, right? :D

You sure are the future, my boon companion!
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 02, 2007, 10:38:10 PM
Quote from: joewolzI believe I said they effected current designs.  No, the denial of them effecting your design is an effect.  It's a conscious decision to deny their influence, which is de facto influence.

:jerkbag:


Oh yeah, I'm guessing by context you mean affected. Normally I don't nitpick spelling and homophones, but you even italicized it. Sheesh.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: arminius on August 02, 2007, 10:40:59 PM
Did Luke log in under joewolz's account?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: J Arcane on August 02, 2007, 10:47:24 PM
Quote from: Elliot WilenDid Luke log in under joewolz's account?
*sets a timer*

So how long until this devolves into "Jonathan Tweet posted on Gaming Outpost once 10 years ago, so D20/3.x is 'forge influenced'."?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: joewolz on August 02, 2007, 10:48:16 PM
Quote from: Caesar Slaad:jerkbag:


Oh yeah, I'm guessing by context you mean affected. Normally I don't nitpick spelling and homophones, but you even italicized it. Sheesh.

I was trying to be funny with that one, I didn't mean to come off like such an ass.  I apologize for the "effected/affected" thing, J Arcane, I was seriously trying to get a chuckle out of you.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: joewolz on August 02, 2007, 10:49:21 PM
Quote from: Elliot WilenDid Luke log in under joewolz's account?

No, I, Joseph Francis Charles Wolz, am exercising my forum-given right to speak my mind.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: joewolz on August 02, 2007, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: J Arcane*sets a timer*

So how long until this devolves into "Jonathan Tweet posted on Gaming Outpost once 10 years ago, so D20/3.x is 'forge influenced'."?

It won't be from me.  The influence of the Forge is a really recent thing that I believe started with the closing of the Theory discussions on the Forge.  That's when they really started having an impact.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Brantai on August 02, 2007, 10:52:10 PM
POSTING SPREE!
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 02, 2007, 10:53:45 PM
Eh, nevermind.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Tyberious Funk on August 02, 2007, 11:11:13 PM
Quote from: joewolzNo, I, Joseph Francis Charles Wolz, am exercising my forum-given right to speak my mind.

...via your arse :rolleyes:
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Thanatos02 on August 03, 2007, 12:16:50 AM
Honestly, I think we'll be in a position to find out. I think indie games will influence future rule sets, one way or another, though.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: joewolz on August 03, 2007, 01:30:46 AM
Quote from: Tyberious Funk...via your arse :rolleyes:

Ain't that the point?  Where does my argument falter, though?  I'd love to see someone disagree with more than, "You're wrong, stupid and FAT!  FUCKHEAD!"

Seriously, shit or get off the pot folks.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 03, 2007, 01:48:21 AM
Quote from: droogI don't like German boys, anyway.
Well, who does?

To my knowledge, I have no Germans in my ancestry. Which is good, because otherwise it wouldn't be as much fun to laugh at Settembrini.

Quote from: joewolzAin't that the point? Where does my argument falter, though? I'd love to see someone disagree with more than, "You're wrong, stupid and FAT! FUCKHEAD!"
I don't know. What's your argument?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Tyberious Funk on August 03, 2007, 02:24:56 AM
Quote from: joewolzAin't that the point? Where does my argument falter, though? I'd love to see someone disagree with more than, "You're wrong, stupid and FAT! FUCKHEAD!"

I agree with Kyle.  I'm not really sure what your argument actually is.  Particularly...
 
QuoteSeriously, shit or get off the pot folks.

... that part.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Christmas Ape on August 03, 2007, 03:29:21 AM
Quote from: joewolzI believe I said they effected current designs.  No, the denial of them effecting your design is an effect.  It's a conscious decision to deny their influence, which is de facto influence.
You know, I've heard this before.

Did you once post this, specifically in regards to D&D 3e (it was -relatively- new at the time), and suggest that anyone who denied their favorite game, if designed after a given year I can't recall, was Forge-influenced was either "wrong, or your favorite game sucks"? Or was it someone from the Irrelevant Papacy, as I suspect? A tiny part of me thinks it was Vincent's blog, but I'm not willing to get libelous just yet.

I'm not trying to take a shot at you. That's Grade-A read it on the Forge first material, and I'm wondering how either a) you wind up parroting it or b) you were the guy who actually spewed it out first.

And I'd suggest this bold an assertion brings with it the burden of proof. Show me the explicit Forge influence - not something already extant they put a capitalized word on, but one of their genuinely new ideas - used in the design of Wild Talents.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 03, 2007, 03:43:09 AM
Quote from: Christmas ApeYou know, I've heard this before.

Did you once post this, specifically in regards to D&D 3e (it was -relatively- new at the time), and suggest that anyone who denied their favorite game, if designed after a given year I can't recall, was Forge-influenced was either "wrong, or your favorite game sucks"? Or was it someone from the Irrelevant Papacy, as I suspect? A tiny part of me thinks it was Vincent's blog, but I'm not willing to get libelous just yet.

I'm not trying to take a shot at you. That's Grade-A read it on the Forge first material, and I'm wondering how either a) you wind up parroting it or b) you were the guy who actually spewed it out first.

And I'd suggest this bold an assertion brings with it the burden of proof. Show me the explicit Forge influence - not something already extant they put a capitalized word on, but one of their genuinely new ideas - used in the design of Wild Talents.

What hes saying is that you would have to be completely ignorant of the Forge and its ideas to make a game that is 100% not influenced by the Forge.

A decition not to follow the design tenets of the Forge is a design decition. Thus, the Forge has influenced the design of a game where such a decition has been made.

I think arguing that the Forge is influencing design across the entire landscape based on this logical oddity is highly pedantic, but technically its true from a purely logical perspective.
By the same logic, D&D 3.x, the World of Darkness and GURPS are all heavily influencing every single roleplaying game being made.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Koltar on August 03, 2007, 03:52:35 AM
"Nothing is Over - till we say it is!"

 "Was it over when the Zhodani bombed Betazed ? "



 "Huh?   Was it??"

NO!


"NOw Lets get Going !!!"



 (pulls out a sword and yells ...running out of the room...)
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Stumpydave on August 03, 2007, 04:05:19 AM
So is it wrong to like GNS?  Cause from what I've gleaned of it it's a pretty accurate means of describing players if not games.

Two of mine I'd definitely label as Gamist - they want to maximise the use of the rules in order to "win".  Which can be a problem because I veer more towards Narrativist style play.  I'd rather things happen - good and bad - as long as it made for a cool game/story(whatever).  None of us are Simulationist and I couldn't handle that style of play because trying to model reality on an rpg's ruleset...shudder.

Arguing against or for a game based on its perceived Forgeyness or lack of is like complaning that your ice cream was neopolitan, not strawberry, chocolate and vanilla.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James J Skach on August 03, 2007, 07:20:50 AM
Quote from: StumpydaveSo is it wrong to like GNS?  Cause from what I've gleaned of it it's a pretty accurate means of describing players if not games.

Two of mine I'd definitely label as Gamist - they want to maximise the use of the rules in order to "win".  Which can be a problem because I veer more towards Narrativist style play.  I'd rather things happen - good and bad - as long as it made for a cool game/story(whatever).  None of us are Simulationist and I couldn't handle that style of play because trying to model reality on an rpg's ruleset...shudder.

I'd say the problem with your definition/use of GNS is the labels.  Did you need the terms Gamist, Narrativist,and Simulationist to understand how you group plays? I have to say, your description of Narrativist differs from my understanding of it, so are you sure you're Narrativist?

It's sill things like this, and the explicit/implicit claims of the superiority of certain goals and styles that make GNS dodgy, IHMO.  Is that to say that people have gleaned useful information and understanding from GNS?  I would never tell someone they can't use whatever tool they want to improve their own situation.  It's taking that idea and trying to extend it to some universal truth or objective assertion about gaming that tends, I think, to cause problems.

Quote from: StumpydaveArguing against or for a game based on its perceived Forgeyness or lack of is like complaning that your ice cream was neopolitan, not strawberry, chocolate and vanilla.
No, it's a little more like someone saying "There are three kinds of ice cream, Brown, White, and Pink. The three ice creams all have different tastes.  It is an objective truth that consumption of all three ice creams together leads to Incoherent Consumption.  Therefore, the best ice cream are those that can only be consumed individually, or Coherent Consumption; that is, Brown, White, or Pink. And, btw, Pink is really the purpose of ice cream, so it's really the only important kind of ice cream.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  There were some ice creams that came out and told everyone they were Pink.  In fact, they were White. Now everyone who consumed White after being told it was Pink, have Brain Damage and can no longer consume Pink properly."
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James J Skach on August 03, 2007, 07:21:31 AM
Henceforth, this will be known as the Neopolitan Theory.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Temple on August 03, 2007, 09:03:10 AM
Quote from: James J SkachNo, it's a little more like someone saying "There are three kinds of ice cream, Brown, White, and Pink. The three ice creams all have different tastes.  It is an objective truth that consumption of all three ice creams together leads to Incoherent Consumption.  Therefore, the best ice cream are those that can only be consumed individually, or Coherent Consumption; that is, Brown, White, or Pink. And, btw, Pink is really the purpose of ice cream, so it's really the only important kind of ice cream.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  There were some ice creams that came out and told everyone they were Pink.  In fact, they were White. Now everyone who consumed White after being told it was Pink, have Brain Damage and can no longer consume Pink properly."

Epic win. Thread over.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 03, 2007, 09:18:57 AM
Quote from: Christmas ApeDid you once post this, specifically in regards to D&D 3e (it was -relatively- new at the time), and suggest that anyone who denied their favorite game, if designed after a given year I can't recall, was Forge-influenced was either "wrong, or your favorite game sucks"?

That was Clinton R. Nixon. I remember it well. It's even the exact statement I was alluding to when I posted about things I've heard from Ron & Clinton.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 03, 2007, 09:21:47 AM
Quote from: James J SkachNo, it's a little more like someone saying "There are three kinds of ice cream, Brown, White, and Pink. The three ice creams all have different tastes.  It is an objective truth that consumption of all three ice creams together leads to Incoherent Consumption.  Therefore, the best ice cream are those that can only be consumed individually, or Coherent Consumption; that is, Brown, White, or Pink. And, btw, Pink is really the purpose of ice cream, so it's really the only important kind of ice cream.

Indeed.

To me, John Kim's threefold came along and spelled out the different flavors of ice cream, and pointed out that different people like different ice cream, and if you share a half gallon of ice cream with your friends, you should pick out one everyone likes.

But the above is where the more extreme brands of forge rhetoric go off the track.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: JamesV on August 03, 2007, 09:50:14 AM
I declare that the war over threads about the war(TM) is over. It is apparent that those who care so little that they can't even summon the effort to not care at all about the war(TM) are in the majority. We, who care very little because we can't effort to not care at all about the war(TM), must now move from the phony war stage to the head scratching in disbelief portion of the conflict.

It is of the utmost importance that we be baffled and surprised by this maladroit roshambo, lest more get infected by the devastatingly inane rhetoric and begin to contribute our own admittedly brilliant, but useless musings.

Never Forget this Thread,
Let Our Foes meet the Thunders of Our Collective Nontyping!
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: arminius on August 03, 2007, 11:07:42 AM
Quote from: StumpydaveNone of us are Simulationist and I couldn't handle that style of play because trying to model reality on an rpg's ruleset...shudder.
As usual, the laity don't really understand the doctrine of their religion.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Stumpydave on August 03, 2007, 12:32:28 PM
Quote from: Elliot WilenAs usual, the laity don't really understand the doctrine of their religion.

Then THEY didn't explain themselves very well, or worse, changed the meanings of words in order to depict something else entirely which is their own damned fault.

To my understanding - Gamist - those who approach rpgs as a game.  With a competitive focus and a desire to not lose.  Typical d&d stuff, boost your stats, kill the monster.
Narrativist - those whose approach is to tell a story either about their character, or to make sure they drive the story that forms out of the game through their actions.  Typical Vampire/Larp type.
Simulationist - those people who wish to experience their game in the most realistic manner possible.  Hence lots of rules, for everything.  I'd suggest any early, non fantasy, game as their cup of tea.


If thats wrong then its wrong.  But if so I announce my own GMS theory.
TADAA!
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: ghost rat on August 03, 2007, 12:44:26 PM
Quote from: StumpydaveSimulationist - those people who wish to experience their game in the most realistic manner possible.  Hence lots of rules, for everything.  I'd suggest any early, non fantasy, game as their cup of tea.
Not remotely. But hey, it's certainly a plausible explanation to make up off the top of your head after hearing the word once.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James J Skach on August 03, 2007, 01:47:37 PM
Quote from: StumpydaveThen THEY didn't explain themselves very well, or worse, changed the meanings of words in order to depict something else entirely which is their own damned fault.

To my understanding - Gamist - those who approach rpgs as a game.  With a competitive focus and a desire to not lose.  Typical d&d stuff, boost your stats, kill the monster.
Narrativist - those whose approach is to tell a story either about their character, or to make sure they drive the story that forms out of the game through their actions.  Typical Vampire/Larp type.
Simulationist - those people who wish to experience their game in the most realistic manner possible.  Hence lots of rules, for everything.  I'd suggest any early, non fantasy, game as their cup of tea.


If thats wrong then its wrong.  But if so I announce my own GMS theory.
TADAA!
I'd go one further than ghost rat - none of them (perhaps with the Gamist being close) are the definitions.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Stumpydave on August 03, 2007, 03:39:51 PM
Quote from: James J SkachI'd go one further than ghost rat - none of them (perhaps with the Gamist being close) are the definitions.

Then can someone please tell me what i was on cos I've got completely the wrong end of the stick.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: arminius on August 03, 2007, 03:41:52 PM
Yup, what you've produced is much closer to rgfa Threefold than GNS. Still not quite, though, as you're suggesting that "rules-light" can't be simulationist.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: arminius on August 03, 2007, 03:46:01 PM
Stumpydave, GNS is a moving target; you might try Ben Lehman's blog for GNS, and this thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=273695) started by Silvered_Glass on rpgnet for the Threefold. (John Kim's FAQ on the Threefold is actually kind of terse.)
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Stumpydave on August 03, 2007, 05:07:16 PM
Or...we could not bother and spend our time making our games fun and exciting.

Yes?  No? :)
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Settembrini on August 03, 2007, 05:08:37 PM
http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=65490&postcount=35
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Pierce Inverarity on August 03, 2007, 05:22:01 PM
Wow. It took them five years to come up with THAT? I mean the section before the GNS part.

So the GNS part is a rehash of the threefold, and the sociology part amounts to: "For a fun experience, everyone better be on the same page."

No wonder they closed the theory forums.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: arminius on August 03, 2007, 05:43:45 PM
?

The Threefold basically developed over the course of two-three years ('94-'97) (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/threefold/origin.html), but pretty organically, as the product of various attempts to draw distinctions between styles of play. Much of it was pretty political, as in, the basic idea of different motivations and styles was already obvious (and had appeared both seriously and jokingly for more than decade, from Blacow (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/models/blacow.html) to "Real Mean, Real Roleplayers, Loonies, and Munchkins" (http://dragon.facetieux.free.fr/jdr/Munchkin.htm), to "role vs. roll"). The trick was achieving widespread consensus on the basic point, which was and is still amazingly difficult.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Pierce Inverarity on August 03, 2007, 06:51:21 PM
Yes? All I'm saying is: in that summary of Forge theory linked by Mr.S, part 2 is derivative, and part 1 is a joke.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: arminius on August 03, 2007, 07:27:28 PM
Oh, I thought you were commenting Silvered Glass's post.

Yes, "SIS", "Social Contract", and capital-S "System" are...pretty bad tools.

Oh, and Stumpydave...yes...but...some sensitivity to the fact that there are different motives & styles of play is needed...and it helps to have a critical vocabulary which recognizes that fact...it's just that GNS isn't an especially good one.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James J Skach on August 03, 2007, 08:47:34 PM
Quote from: StumpydaveOr...we could not bother and spend our time making our games fun and exciting.

Yes?  No? :)
Yeah, well, this is the hope. Here's the problem.

Game designer X puts mechanic Y into his game.  It's new, and radical, and he wants to set it apart and provide a reason.  So he, perhaps even unintentionally, insults traditional gamers in the marekting or PR for the game. Even if this doesn't occur, when someone asks why the new mechanic, the designer will draw a reason by saying there was something wrong with the existing method and, ususally, use GfuckingNfuckingS to explain it.  People playing with that method who love it and have fun with it will take exception.

This is not inevtiable.  Look at the diverse small press games from the people here - Roma Imperious, In Harm's Way, Epic, Forward to Adventure.  all of these desginers have navigated this mine field rather well, though not without mistakes (ask Kent/Remindall about Epic!), and usually by not basing teh reasons on anything to do with something as pathetic as GfuckingNfuckingS.

And, somehow, there is this desire to now just say, "Hey, let's just forget about all those nasty things we said and move on." Of course without apology or recognition that what was said was nasty - even vile in one particular case.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Settembrini on August 04, 2007, 01:41:44 AM
Pierce,

It´s the official, naturalized and approved concise guide to the big model.
Ron loves it.

But really, you wouldn´t believe WHAT kinds of trueisms or trivialities Ron "discovered" for himself and is preachy about them. You wouldn´t believe it.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Stumpydave on August 04, 2007, 05:05:23 AM
So, with apologies if I come across as ignorant or somesuch, whats the point of all this.  I mean all of it, the forge theory approach, the death to all swine approach from here.  Constant sniping and bickering not just about the games you play but about how you play them.

Or does it just boil down to the fact that some people have nothing better to do in their lives than belittle others?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 04, 2007, 08:21:11 AM
Quote from: James J SkachYeah, well, this is the hope. Here's the problem.

Game designer X puts mechanic Y into his game.  It's new, and radical, and he wants to set it apart and provide a reason.  So he, perhaps even unintentionally, insults traditional gamers in the marekting or PR for the game.
That's funny, when I came up with d4-d4, a lot of the stuff in that seemed new to me. But I didn't feel any urge to have a go at "traditional" gaming. I felt more like it was traditional - traditional in the sense of how games are often played (fast and loose, over 6-12 sessions with half the people not knowing the rules or paying much attention to what's going on) rather than how they're usually designed. So it had some new stuff, but was overall not new, if that makes any sense.

It's what I've said about rpgs before - they're like lego sets, each set has mostly the same bunch of pieces you had before, if you're lucky there might be one or two new pieces, but generally each set is just the old pieces put together in a new way. But the new way's interesting and fun, so you're happy to buy the set. To my mind, an "innovative roleplaying game!" is like an "innovative lego set!" I just go, "really? how?!"

And then you get guys like Clash who openly express fear of doing anything "new and original". "If I have an original thought in game design, I quickly smother it in its crib before it can get out and do any damage."

Things don't have to be all super-original to be fun and interesting. But I guess some people don't feel that way. Beats me, really.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James J Skach on August 04, 2007, 08:44:41 AM
Quote from: Kyle AaronThat's funny, when I came up with d4-d4, a lot of the stuff in that seemed new to me. But I didn't feel any urge to have a go at "traditional" gaming. I felt more like it was traditional - traditional in the sense of how games are often played (fast and loose, over 6-12 sessions with half the people not knowing the rules or paying much attention to what's going on) rather than how they're usually designed. So it had some new stuff, but was overall not new, if that makes any sense.

It's what I've said about rpgs before - they're like lego sets, each set has mostly the same bunch of pieces you had before, if you're lucky there might be one or two new pieces, but generally each set is just the old pieces put together in a new way. But the new way's interesting and fun, so you're happy to buy the set. To my mind, an "innovative roleplaying game!" is like an "innovative lego set!" I just go, "really? how?!"

And then you get guys like Clash who openly express fear of doing anything "new and original". "If I have an original thought in game design, I quickly smother it in its crib before it can get out and do any damage."

Things don't have to be all super-original to be fun and interesting. But I guess some people don't feel that way. Beats me, really.
Ok Kyle..I'm sorry I didn't mention you and d4-d4:D :p
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: James J Skach on August 04, 2007, 08:48:14 AM
Quote from: StumpydaveSo, with apologies if I come across as ignorant or somesuch, whats the point of all this.  I mean all of it, the forge theory approach, the death to all swine approach from here.  Constant sniping and bickering not just about the games you play but about how you play them.

Or does it just boil down to the fact that some people have nothing better to do in their lives than belittle others?
No, but there are a bunch of people who are adherants of a theory they claim describes all of gaming.

While I'm playing, which, unfortunately isn't often enough these days, it matters little.  When I'm thinking about design, examples of how others have done things, how dice variations effect odds and the feel of a game...then it matters to me very much.

The former I do away from the computer, that latter I do on the computer. Your flaw is believing this is all I do, not seeing the rest of my life.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Kyle Aaron on August 04, 2007, 08:55:18 AM
Quote from: James J SkachOk Kyle..I'm sorry I didn't mention you and d4-d4:D :p
Well, I was just talking about a game designer I happen to know fairly well. I don't understand this urge to claim to be new and radical and so much better than other gamers, that's all I was saying, really.

Superiority, whether it comes from Uncle Ronny or this Prussian lunatic - I don't really understand the motivation.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: arminius on August 04, 2007, 10:21:01 AM
Quote from: StumpydaveSo, with apologies if I come across as ignorant or somesuch, whats the point of all this.  I mean all of it, the forge theory approach, the death to all swine approach from here.  Constant sniping and bickering not just about the games you play but about how you play them.
Part of it's defensive. You get somebody pushing their methods or their game, arrogantly assuming everyone else is after the same thing, and that creates a need to explain why that isn't so. (If you go back into rec.games.frp.advocacy archives and search on Theatrix or David Berkman, you'll find that reaction to Berkman was a major impetus behind the development of the Threefold. Personally I think too many people paid him too much attention, but I still think the ideas are valid on the whole.)

The other part as I said is the need for a critical vocabulary, or at least a critical framework, so that people can discuss games without confusing goals & methods. Some methods work for some goals and not others.
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Guest (Deleted) on August 07, 2007, 08:48:03 PM
Does anyone here still remember the name of the arch-nemesis group to the S.W.I.N.E. ?  And what does S.W.I.N.E. stand for anyway?
Title: I declare the swine wars to be over. We will now commence the Siege.
Post by: Gunslinger on August 07, 2007, 08:51:20 PM
Story Warriors Instigating Narrative Experience