So John Kim's abortion/choice thread got me thinking.

I don't actually think there's nothing morally wrong with abortion. However, I am still pro-choice, but on the theory that the sort of governmental apparatus we'd need to stop it would be so grossly invasive and unfair that we're a lot better off having no state intervention at all.*

So instead of the abstract, philosophical, endlessly-step-retracing talk about what label ("right" or "wrong") to stick to the particular act, how about we just agree for this discussion that it's bad and discuss in this thread how to prevent it without causing deleterious, highly discriminatory side effects?


*Koltar's friend, for instance, might well have been dead by the time a government agency finally decided that the pregnancy really was a threat to her life.

Ensure that women with children are fully supported. That won't stop all abortions, but it would certainly remove the motivation for many.

Better and more comprehensive sex education.

Subsidized birth control.

Better economic opportunities.

Turn america into a totalitarian state, eliminate rights, freedom, privacy, etc.

Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceauşescu outlawed abortion, and in fact imposed special taxes on romanians who did not have children because he believed children were the "property of the state" (I.E. him) and that by not having children you were depriving the state of resources and had to pay a special tax to repay the state. Here's a link to an article on  Ceauşescu and his policies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C5%9Fescu

Not only did his policies lead to the overthrow and execution of Ceausescu and his wife, they lead to tens of thousands of unwanted children rotting in state orphanages without food or care.

BTW, in nazi germany aryan women who had abortions faced execution. Likewise many dictatorships outlawed abortion. Here's a list of regimes that banned choice on abortion, as well as everything else: http://www.choice101.com/82-famous-anti-abortionists.html#AdolphHitler

So, to stop abortion is simple: Turn america into a dictatorship, even more of one than it's been since, oh, september 12 2001. Outlaw choice on abortion. Execute doctors who offer to preform them, Establish secret police posing as woman seeking abortions and execute anyone who aids them. Also have secret police posing as  abortion doctors and imprison anyone coming to them. Execute anyone who tells anyone how to preform an abortion, outlaw wire coat hangars and make possession of one a capital offense as they can be used in performing abortions. (No wire hangers! BANG! BANG! BANG!)

Since the internet could be used to disseminate information on abortion, better ban it too, or regulate it to the point it's useless. Make advocating abortion rights worth 20 years at hard labor minimum, then to make sure no one overthrows the government and replaces it with one that might allow abortions be sure to make any criticism or dissent a serious crime.

Yep, that'll stop most abortions.

Earnestly advise friends or family members considering abortions not to have them, and donate our personal resources to private groups that support mothers in difficult circumstances.

Of course, it's more fun to pontificate on how if we were king we would legislate all for the greater good, and to proclaim the tragic irony that we know how to achieve this greater good but lack only the power to impose it.

Quote from: Demonoid;248136Turn america into a totalitarian state, eliminate rights, freedom, privacy, etc.

Quote from: Vaecrius;248104without causing deleterious, highly discriminatory side effects

Quote from: The_Shadow;248171Of course, it's more fun to pontificate on how if we were king we would legislate all for the greater good, and to proclaim the tragic irony that we know how to achieve this greater good but lack only the power to impose it.

This being the Internet, that was the sort of answer I was thinking about.

What you said works as well though.

Quote from: Vaecrius;248104So instead of the abstract, philosophical, endlessly-step-retracing talk about what label ("right" or "wrong") to stick to the particular act, how about we just agree for this discussion that it's bad and discuss in this thread how to prevent it without causing deleterious, highly discriminatory side effects?

Step 1: Prevention



Step 2: Cure

Bring up our boys to be men, and encourage our male friends to be men, too. Men take responsibility for their actions. A significant contributor to women's decisions to have abortions, when the pregnancy does not risk their physical health, is the thought of how much support they will or won't have from the father of their child. A happily-married woman is much less likely to have an abortion than a 16 year after a one-night stand with some random idiot.

Thus, by encouraging the males of our society to behave as men, when women are made pregnant by them, the women will be far less likely to feel alone, and feel that they'll have to do it all by themselves.

The use of condoms to prevent pregnancy, and the improvement of boys into men to take responsibility for pregnancy if it does happen, would significantly reduce the number of abortions which occur. It wouldn't make it zero, but it'd greatly reduce it. Greatly reducing it is usually considered a good thing for other health hazards.

Quote from: Vaecrius;248186This being the Internet, that was the sort of answer I was thinking about.

What you said works as well though.

I honestly think you can't stop it without turning a country into an absolute dictatorship, really.

Look, more people in america believe in abortion that believe it's right to use crystal meth, but you can't stop people from making, selling and using crystal meth. If we can't stop all the meth makers and users, and the people who believe in abortion outn umber them from hear to sunday, how could we stop abortion?

That's the point I was making with my links to the situation in romania and other dictatorships.

I kinda think Americans are crazy to frame it as abortion yes/no.  Almost every other Westen country has limited abortion; because aborting a 4 week foetus that in no way resembles a human is obviously very different from aborting an 8 month foetus that is basically an unborn human; and would be treated as human if born.  Here in the UK the general limit is 24 weeks; which I think is too late considering that the law also allows later term abortions for fetal abnormalities.

Much as others have said:

1. Education, comprehensive and detailed, starting before the time conception can occur. This would include the teaching of abstinance, contraception, stds (effects, responsibilities if they contract them, and means to avoid contracting) and how to acquire contraception. Whether this happens at schools or with the
family is not important to me. I would prefer both.

2. Availability of contraception. Condoms can be gotten for free in some places. They should be free period. I do not know if anyone here knows just how much birth control pills cost but they are not cheap. Last I saw, about $132 for one month. They should be cheaper if not free.

3. I appreciate that people don't want to hit a person when they are down and accidents do happen but abortion should never be acceptable or downplayed. It should be shameful, even when necessary. This does not mean taking the choice from the woman but they should think twice about having one and then think again. The man should bear this shame as well. A support network is good and should be encouraged for new mothers and fathers. That said, note, I am pro-choice just against abortion.

In the end, you will not eliminate abortions, ever. Even if it becomes socially acceptable to have children at 16, or abortions become a shame so horrible no one dare speak its name, you will still have women and men unwilling to have a child or face the pregnancy or whatever their reason. And it will be valid. So, I think you can reduce but not eliminate abortions.

Bill

Eliminate rape and incest, and you eliminate 2 reasons to scrape a foetus.
Eliminate Down's Syndrome as well as other defects, and you eliminate those reasons to abort as well.
 
Eliminate religion and Republicans and Democrats, and there's 3 more reasons eliminated.

One thing that may be helpful is The Demographics of Abortion -- a summary of abortion statistics in the U.S.  From the introduction of the 16-page report:

QuoteThe average woman who seeks an abortion is 24 years old, unwed, earns a yearly income of about $25,000, and already is a mother. She is just as likely as not to have had a previous abortion. She has religious beliefs and is a Christian -- more likely to be Protestant than Catholic. The typical abortion is performed around the 8th week -- well within the first trimester. She could be of any race. And, if she is a minor, her parents not only condoned her decision to have an abortion, they may have demanded it. There may be a variety of specific reasons behind her decision to have an abortion, but they are subsumed within one salient fact: the pregnancy was unwanted and unplanned.

That report notes that only 19% of abortions are on teenagers -- though interestingly in the rare case of late-term (i.e. over 16 weeks) abortions, the age is typically under 15.  For fixes:

1) I think that sex education is still important even for people who are older than teenagers, and is vital to eliminating unwanted and unplanned pregnancies.  

2) Encouraging marriage will help.  However, it's not just men -- most women in their early 20s don't want to be married these days either.  The average age of first marriage has been steadily rising, pushing towards 30.  

3) Providing better support for combining pregnancy and a career.  I think more expansive parental leave laws would be enormously useful for this purpose.

Quote from: shalvayez;248324Eliminate rape and incest, and you eliminate 2 reasons to scrape a foetus.
Eliminate Down's Syndrome as well as other defects, and you eliminate those reasons to abort as well.

In the U.S., these concerns are relatively rare as reasons for abortion.  

Fetal abnormalities are given as the dominant reason in 3% of abortions.
Rape is 1%.
Incest is less than 1%.

Quote from: jhkim;2483573) Providing better support for combining pregnancy and a career.  I think more expansive parental leave laws would be enormously useful for this purpose.

I like the idea but I believe you would have a side effect of making women less desirable tot he workforce. That is to say, a considerable prejudice still exists that mothers will care for the children in preference to fathers. Thus, a woman can and often is perceived as being a larger risk for lost time on the job. I have seen this happen many times where a women is targeted for layoff because she exceeded both her vacation time and FLA allowance. You can make the laws very strict if you like but when it comes to layoffs/hiring someone has to loose out.

What we need and I doubt will happen in the near future is a cultural shift from the perception that only the mother can care for the child combined with an emphasis on family. With smaller and smaller families it seems this shift will be unlikely.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;248363I like the idea but I believe you would have a side effect of making women less desirable tot he workforce. That is to say, a considerable prejudice still exists that mothers will care for the children in preference to fathers. Thus, a woman can and often is perceived as being a larger risk for lost time on the job. I have seen this happen many times where a women is targeted for layoff because she exceeded both her vacation time and FLA allowance.

This is indeed a problem, but note that discrimination is already there even without paid leave laws.  As noted in the Wikipedia article, lots of countries have paid leave laws.  It's a problem, but a surmountable one.  Having paternity leave helps address this, and stay-at-home dads is a rising trend.