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Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language

Started by TheShadow, July 08, 2008, 06:26:18 AM

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droog

#60
July 08, 2008, 10:35:12 AM
Quote from: noisms;222851Nobody, but I don't go around publishing role playing games and supplements with specific political goals like Monte Cook apparently does.
But you would if you could, right?
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

gleichman

#61
July 08, 2008, 10:35:53 AM
Quote from: noisms;222849I'm 26. I don't know anybody who would consider it inappropriate to use 'he' as a sex-neutral term in written English. Literally anybody. Is it an American thing?

It's not an American thing, although it found strongly in certain limited American circles. It's over represented online because feminists are loud and ugly whenever given the chance.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Balbinus

#62
July 08, 2008, 10:37:34 AM
Bugger, here I am again.

Howard's racism was against blacks, not arabs and not as I recall against Jews (though I may just not remember that one clearly).  He was specifically, not generally, racist.

Bloody good writer though.

Brian, I'd argue the recasting of JFK's image happened as much in his lifetime as afterwards, although I agree he wouldn't be a hero of the left today had he lived.

On the whole he/she thing, the only people I ever seem to find railing against it are those with broader issues about living in a more egalitarian world.  Similarly, if someone calls something PC you can usually be pretty sure that they've got some issues with how society has changed over the last century and a bit.

walkerp

#63
July 08, 2008, 10:38:00 AM
Quote from: wulfgar;222844So, for the sake of argument lets say Robert Howard and Tolkien were racists.  Should we now replace one racism with another?  Is that progress?  Because that's what were talking about here.  In Monte Cook's quotes, he wasn't saying "lets show characters of all races, and depict them based on what makes sense for the character, regardless of race."  He was saying "lets show the white guy getting the crap beaten out of him because we're tired of white men", and apparently lots of people at WotC agreed with him.  
Classic Victim-Bully thinking here.  Monte Cook was clearly trying to show a wider range of heroic types and reduce the emphasis on the white male.  The only beating on came after he found his policy had been switched behind his back.  Then it became more of a fighting against management thing.  His initial plan involved no negativity, just a change of emphasis.  And clearly, the powers at WotC didn't agree with him.

But go on being the beaten victim.  White males sure have it tough these days.  So many disadvantages and roadblocks put in our way on the path to success and power!  And now our self-image is constantly attacked by the nouvelle racists that run our gaming companies (who weirdly enough are almost all white males, how they must have struggled through the PC morass of immigrants and women that were unfairly supported by government programs and cultural entitlement to make it to the top; amazing!).
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

noisms

#64
July 08, 2008, 10:39:21 AM
Quote from: droog;222853But you would if you could, right?

Nah, games are about fun, not changing attitudes. Agendas are about the most boring things I can think of.
Read my blog, Monsters and Manuals, for campaign ideas, opinionated ranting, and collected game-related miscellania.

Buy Yoon-Suin, a campaign toolbox for fantasy games, giving you the equipment necessary to run a sandbox campaign in your own Yoon-Suin - a region of high adventure shrouded in ancient mysteries, opium smoke, great luxury and opulent cruelty.

droog

#65
July 08, 2008, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: noisms;222857Nah, games are about fun, not changing attitudes. Agendas are about the most boring things I can think of.
Everybody's got an agenda. Some people recognise it, some don't.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

walkerp

#66
July 08, 2008, 10:45:34 AM
Quote from: noisms;222849I'm 26. I don't know anybody who would consider it inappropriate to use 'he' as a sex-neutral term in written English. Literally anybody. Is it an American thing?

Classic.  Look at the way you are thinking.  Who said it was inappropriate to use 'he' as a gender-neutral term?  I'm arguing against people who say 'she' shouldn't be used because it is not gender-neutral.  I'm fine with just 'he' but I'm also fine with 'he' and 'she' and that is what I use when I write.

This whole thread was started by someone complaining about the inclusion of 'she' and somehow it has been turned around to demonstrate how the poor white males are being victimized.

Bully-Victim syndrome again.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

walkerp

#67
July 08, 2008, 10:47:10 AM Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 10:52:46 AM by walkerp
double post.  Sorry
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

noisms

#68
July 08, 2008, 10:49:30 AM
Quote from: droog;222858Everybody's got an agenda. Some people recognise it, some don't.

Who are you, Yoda?

At root my agenda is sex, same as everybody else. But political agendas? Spare me.
Read my blog, Monsters and Manuals, for campaign ideas, opinionated ranting, and collected game-related miscellania.

Buy Yoon-Suin, a campaign toolbox for fantasy games, giving you the equipment necessary to run a sandbox campaign in your own Yoon-Suin - a region of high adventure shrouded in ancient mysteries, opium smoke, great luxury and opulent cruelty.

gleichman

#69
July 08, 2008, 10:50:14 AM
Quote from: Balbinus;222855On the whole he/she thing, the only people I ever seem to find railing against it are those with broader issues about living in a more egalitarian world.  Similarly, if someone calls something PC you can usually be pretty sure that they've got some issues with how society has changed over the last century and a bit.

As noisms' age of 26 shows, he wasn't alive before most of those 'changes'. Many young people today object to the excesses the 60s brought. It's not a over and done deal and its unclear which side will prevail.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

wulfgar

#70
July 08, 2008, 10:51:29 AM
Walker:
QuoteWho said it was inappropriate to use 'he' as a gender-neutral term

Age of Fable did
QuoteMy guess would be that neither 'he' nor 'it' would be considered appropriate to indicate any person regardless of gender by most people under 40. 'They' would.

Walker:
QuoteThis whole thread was started by someone complaining about the inclusion of 'she' and somehow it has been turned around to demonstrate how the poor white males are being victimized.

I believe the "somehow" happened when the Monte Cook quote was brought up.  Responding to claims by the other side in an argument is not being a bully-victim.  It's having a discussion.
 

Jackalope

#71
July 08, 2008, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: walkerp;222843Not advocating, but reinforcing.  So in Howard, the bad guys are always black or arabic, with the colour of their skin and their hooked noses used as common indicators of their evilness.

Except of course when the bad guys are the very white, red and blonde haired Vanir, or the white and brown haired Aquilonians that Conan conquered.  And let's just ignore that Conan himself is a a swarthy, dark-haired dude.
"What is often referred to as conspiracy theory is simply the normal continuation of normal politics by normal means." - Carl Oglesby

gleichman

#72
July 08, 2008, 10:52:22 AM
Quote from: walkerp;222861Who said it was inappropriate to use 'he' as a gender-neutral term?

You did. Memory problems much?

http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=222748&postcount=8
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you\'ve simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

walkerp

#73
July 08, 2008, 10:53:12 AM
Quote from: noisms;222857Nah, games are about fun, not changing attitudes. Agendas are about the most boring things I can think of.

Than stop peddling yours.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there\'s anything wrong with jerking off, but don\'t fool yourself into thinking you\'re getting laid." —Aos

noisms

#74
July 08, 2008, 10:53:23 AM
Quote from: walkerp;222861Classic.  Look at the way you are thinking.  Who said it was inappropriate to use 'he' as a gender-neutral term?

"Most people under 40" according to Age of Fable.

QuoteI'm fine with just 'he' but I'm also fine with 'he' and 'she' and that is what I use when I write.

Quite a change of heart since the beginning of the thread.

QuoteThis whole thread was started by someone complaining about the inclusion of 'she' and somehow it has been turned around to demonstrate how the poor white males are being victimized.

Bully-Victim syndrome again.

Nobody's saying white males are being victimized, least of all me. My only complaint about that whole Monte Cook thing was that I resent the sanctimonious thought-policing of the piece.
Read my blog, Monsters and Manuals, for campaign ideas, opinionated ranting, and collected game-related miscellania.

Buy Yoon-Suin, a campaign toolbox for fantasy games, giving you the equipment necessary to run a sandbox campaign in your own Yoon-Suin - a region of high adventure shrouded in ancient mysteries, opium smoke, great luxury and opulent cruelty.
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