This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Author Topic: Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language  (Read 19629 times)

noisms

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2008, 09:21:53 AM »
What I don't understand is why game designers feel that it's their duty to change the way people think about the sexes. Who appointed Monte Cook as moral guardian of the d20 world? I mean, I like the guy and I like his games, but... Jesus.
Read my blog, Monsters and Manuals, for campaign ideas, opinionated ranting, and collected game-related miscellania.

Buy Yoon-Suin, a campaign toolbox for fantasy games, giving you the equipment necessary to run a sandbox campaign in your own Yoon-Suin - a region of high adventure shrouded in ancient mysteries, opium smoke, great luxury and opulent cruelty.

TheShadow

  • Upstanding Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2008, 09:23:19 AM »
Quote from: not really monte cook;222791
It's only in later artwork that Regdar seems to be pretty clearly the black female we tried to avoid. And to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces she shows up in.


yup...wouldn't quite fly, would it?
You can shake your fists at the sky. You can do a rain dance. You can ignore the clouds completely. But none of them move the clouds.

- Dave "The Inexorable" Noonan solicits community feedback before 4e's release

Saphim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 597
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2008, 09:34:29 AM »
Quote from: The_Shadow;222794
yup...wouldn't quite fly, would it?

Of course not, you left away the part of the live journal part that said they wanted to get away from the black females, but marketing insisted to get them in.
And you also left away that black females always have dominated RPG art.

Or in short. Don't be silly.
 

TheShadow

  • Upstanding Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2008, 09:35:54 AM »
Quote from: Saphim;222800


Or in short. Don't be silly.


Finally! I have a nemesis!
You can shake your fists at the sky. You can do a rain dance. You can ignore the clouds completely. But none of them move the clouds.

- Dave "The Inexorable" Noonan solicits community feedback before 4e's release

Edsan

  • Just roll the damn dice!
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 423
    • http://jakalla.blogspot.com/
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2008, 09:49:01 AM »
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222780
Don't cry, Edsan, it's not manly.


Really? I thought crying was a human trait. Not a gender one. I remember multiple occasions where "manly" men throughout history have cried often and profusely.

Perhaps you care to explain how this diminishes their "manliness"?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;222780
Either way, you get to shut the fuck up about "PC agendas".

Your whole post is proof that a "PC agenda" exists and you subscribe to it, whether consciously or not.

Also sir, allow me to say that you are not only rude in your personal attacks you also come out as a discriminatory sexist and a fascist.

By all means feel free to place your views on these forums. Even if I may not agree with some of them, I would never intrude on another's liberty to make their opinion heard.

Unlike you, I believe in freedom of expression. And yes, that includes even the freedom to express what I may personally and therefore subjectively think is bullshit.

Quote from: droog;222784
Cause we wants more bitches at the table!

Why?

What I want is good gamers and gamemasters at the table.

I don't give a crap about their gender, age, religion, sexual orientation or ethnicity as long as they fit the description above.


Quote from: The_Shadow;222771
Wow. Speechless. Umm, thrash that white male some more!

Now I understand why some say Mr Cook is a genius! He is a white male and manages to be simultaneously sexist and racist against white males. For such a stunt I take my hat off to him.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 09:59:32 AM by Edsan »
PA campaign blog and occasional gaming rant: Mutant Foursome - http://jakalla.blogspot.com/

walkerp
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2826
    • http://www.draconismontreal.ca
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2008, 09:57:05 AM »
It's hilarious.  You've had a few centuries with "he" being the dominantly used pronoun.  Now it starts to lose a little ground to reflect a changing society and all of a sudden the white male is a victim and a whipping boy.

I think I am going to coin this term the Victim-Bully.  It's this weird phenomenon where the social group in the utterly dominant power position completely freaks out when they lose the smallest bit of ground and starts whining and crying in a resentful way, like they've actually been hurt.

Oh the pain you must feel with those jarring sections where suddenly the unexpected and unwanted "she" leaps out at you, jarring you from your nerdly reverie, destroying the fun you were having and trashing centuries of hallowed tradition, all for some nefarious agenda that wants only to control your life.
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there's anything wrong with jerking off, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're getting laid." —Aos

droog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4862
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2008, 10:02:35 AM »
Quote from: Edsan;222810
Why?

Cause you doesn't have tits, bro.
The past lives on in your front room
The poor still weak the rich still rule
History lives in the books at home
The books at home

Gang of Four
[/size]

Malleus Arianorum

  • The Internet
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2008, 10:03:10 AM »
Quote from: noisms;222792
What I don't understand is why game designers feel that it's their duty to change the way people think about the sexes. Who appointed Monte Cook as moral guardian of the d20 world? I mean, I like the guy and I like his games, but... Jesus.
It's a Seattle thing. We're a city that's obsessed with sending "messages." So, recently we voted to build a monorail. No plans or anything, just a multi-million dollar debt to attest that that we hart monorails. And see the earlier thread on renaming King County. Or the $0.10 per cup of Starbucks Coffee tax, (not on other brands, just Starbucks) to protest low funding for education, even though Starbucks is a loyal supporter of education and especialy in the neighborhood that started the drive etc etc....
That's pretty much how post modernism works. Keep dismissing details until there is nothing left, and then declare that it meant nothing all along. --John Morrow
 
Butt-Kicker 100%, Storyteller 100%, Power Gamer 100%, Method Actor 100%, Specialist 67%, Tactician 67%, Casual Gamer 0%

noisms

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2008, 10:06:07 AM »
Quote from: walkerp;222815
It's hilarious.  You've had a few centuries with "he" being the dominantly used pronoun.  Now it starts to lose a little ground to reflect a changing society and all of a sudden the white male is a victim and a whipping boy.

I think I am going to coin this term the Victim-Bully.  It's this weird phenomenon where the social group in the utterly dominant power position completely freaks out when they lose the smallest bit of ground and starts whining and crying in a resentful way, like they've actually been hurt.

Oh the pain you must feel with those jarring sections where suddenly the unexpected and unwanted "she" leaps out at you, jarring you from your nerdly reverie, destroying the fun you were having and trashing centuries of hallowed tradition, all for some nefarious agenda that wants only to control your life.


This is what's known as Bulverism - a term coined by C. S. Lewis to refer to arguments which don't deal with the topic at hand, but instead just seek to draw causal links between personality and opinions. For example, "You don't like the Mona Lisa because you have a problem with women with big hands."

In other words, you've been proved wrong, and now you're resorting to cheap and predictable pop-psychology nonsense. Get a grip.
Read my blog, Monsters and Manuals, for campaign ideas, opinionated ranting, and collected game-related miscellania.

Buy Yoon-Suin, a campaign toolbox for fantasy games, giving you the equipment necessary to run a sandbox campaign in your own Yoon-Suin - a region of high adventure shrouded in ancient mysteries, opium smoke, great luxury and opulent cruelty.

gleichman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4541
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2008, 10:06:50 AM »
Quote from: Edsan;222810

Your whole post is proof that a "PC agenda" exists and you subscribe to it, whether consciously or not.

Also sir, allow me to say that you are not only rude in your personal attacks you also come out as a discriminatory sexist and a fascist.



The above was directed to Kyle, and I must chime in my agreement. The height of sexism and fascism is the attempt to alter and change language. A method highlighted by 1984, but is much older than that. As is the self-righteous fury they unleash and when they receive push-back.

I must say one thing however, I understand Walker a bit better now. If I saw the world through the same distorted lens as he- I'd want the whole  of mankind dead as well...

On the bright side, I too have noticed that about the only place one encounters this crap now days is in gaming and hardcore feminist writings. Like the ERA, it appears to be a dying movement. Three cheers for reality.

As to why it's hanging on in gaming, I'd suggest that much of the current game design crowd are a bunch of brain-dead left-wing PC zombies without a mind of their own. Not only does it explain this specific problem, it explains the terrible state of game design and industry decline as well.
Whitehall Paraindustries- A blog about RPG Theory and Design

"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you've simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

Age of Fable

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1845
    • http://www.ageoffable.net
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2008, 10:07:31 AM »
Isn't it usual to refer to characters with one gender and players (including the GM) with the other?
free resources:
Teleleli The people, places, gods and monsters of the great city of Teleleli and the islands around.
Age of Fable 'Online gamebook', in the style of Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf and Fabled Lands.
Tables for Fables Random charts for any fantasy RPG rules.
Fantasy Adventure Ideas Generator
Cyberpunk/fantasy/pulp/space opera/superhero/western Plot Generator.
Cute Board Heroes Paper 'miniatures'.
Map Generator
Dungeon generator for Basic D&D or Tunnels & Trolls.

walkerp
BANNED

  • BANNED
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2826
    • http://www.draconismontreal.ca
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2008, 10:10:52 AM »
Quote from: wulfgar;222791
Indeed.  Simply stunning.  Imagine if a wizards employee revealed that art was deliberatly chosen to show a character of some other race or gender being beaten over and over simply to make a statement about their race or gender.


In effect, they were and have been and that's the whole point.  Fantasy art and literature from the get-go is rife with the constant reinforcement of the supremacy of the white male over women and all other races.  Do you think that is just an accident?

Read any Robert E. Howard recently?  Tolkien?  Don't get me wrong, they are great writers and I love their work (especially Howard), but there writing reinforces social inequalities that were not good (like slavery, colonialism, women not being able to vote).  Things have changed in our society, in many ways for the better.  Should not our literature, art and gaming reflect that?
"The difference between being fascinated with RPGs and being fascinated with the RPG industry is akin to the difference between being fascinated with sex and being fascinated with masturbation. Not that there's anything wrong with jerking off, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're getting laid." —Aos

noisms

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2008, 10:17:03 AM »
Quote from: walkerp;222829
In effect, they were and have been and that's the whole point.  Fantasy art and literature from the get-go is rife with the constant reinforcement of the supremacy of the white male over women and all other races.  Do you think that is just an accident?

Read any Robert E. Howard recently?  Tolkien?  Don't get me wrong, they are great writers and I love their work (especially Howard), but there writing reinforces social inequalities that were not good (like slavery, colonialism, women not being able to vote).  Things have changed in our society, in many ways for the better.  Should not our literature, art and gaming reflect that?


I don't understand the logical leap that says depicting slavery, colonialism and sexual inequality means advocating it. Howard depicted blokes committing mass murder with big broadswords. Does that mean he advocated that as a valid method of problem-solving in the modern world?
Read my blog, Monsters and Manuals, for campaign ideas, opinionated ranting, and collected game-related miscellania.

Buy Yoon-Suin, a campaign toolbox for fantasy games, giving you the equipment necessary to run a sandbox campaign in your own Yoon-Suin - a region of high adventure shrouded in ancient mysteries, opium smoke, great luxury and opulent cruelty.

Age of Fable

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1845
    • http://www.ageoffable.net
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2008, 10:18:24 AM »
Quote from: noisms;222746
'He' is sex-neutral in written English. Unfortunately some people don't see it that way.


Words have no meaning seperate to what people think they mean.

Questions about 'what words mean' are actually questions about demographics. They really mean 'do most people think that this word means...'.

However common sense is often the academia of 50 years ago, and so it is in this case. Most people seem to talk about the meaning of words as if words were an actual thing in the world, that can be discovered or analysed (effectively by pointing to Oxford or Webster's). Since they're not (even in the opinion of Oxford and Webster's), the argument goes nowhere.

My guess would be that neither 'he' nor 'it' would be considered appropriate to indicate any person regardless of gender by most people under 40. 'They' would.
free resources:
Teleleli The people, places, gods and monsters of the great city of Teleleli and the islands around.
Age of Fable 'Online gamebook', in the style of Fighting Fantasy, Lone Wolf and Fabled Lands.
Tables for Fables Random charts for any fantasy RPG rules.
Fantasy Adventure Ideas Generator
Cyberpunk/fantasy/pulp/space opera/superhero/western Plot Generator.
Cute Board Heroes Paper 'miniatures'.
Map Generator
Dungeon generator for Basic D&D or Tunnels & Trolls.

Philotomy Jurament

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1971
  • Prisoner 24601
Gamers and "gender-inclusive" language
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2008, 10:20:37 AM »
Personally, I prefer the use of "he" as a gender-neutral pronoun in English; anything else seems jarring.  I think that when people read the long-standing gender-neutral use of "he" as excluding females, they're trying find a problem, or have been trained to see it as a problem.  But I'm old-fashioned, I suppose; "progress" marches on...
The problem is not that power corrupts, but that the corruptible are irresistibly drawn to the pursuit of power. Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.