The question came up in the atheism myths thread about the ethics of childbearing. Here's the general direction it took:

Quote from: John MorrowWe live in an age where reproduction is fairly well understood and can be stopped through fairly basic sterilization procedures. Do you think that any adult that understands this yet fails to act on it is irresponsible, cruel, and even sadistic? And if every adult did act on it, do you think that would be a good thing? Forget blaming people for it. Do you think the world would be better off if no human beings reproduced?

Quote from: MeI think it would be a vastly better place if fewer people reproduced.

Quote from: John MorrowAnd who are the people who shouldn't be reproducing?

Quote from: Dominus NoxHmmm, how about people who've abused or neglected children? Or how about people who've used drugs or alcohol during pregnancy and messed up their babies? How about people with habitual violent criminal records?

Those'd be good choices, AFAIC.

Quote from: John MorrowAre you going to prohibit them from having children? Is it irresponsible, cruel, and even sadistic to let them have children since we can stop them?

Quote from: Me, in response to the earlier questionThe people who 1) aren't ready for children and/or 2) can't support children.

In response to John's most recent question, I'd definitely prohibit people from having children if I could. I think there should at the very least be an age limit and a test you have to pass. I'd also be in favor of some sort of monetary prerequisite for having kids, to make sure that children aren't born to people that can't afford them.

Oh.  Oh, dear.  I've participated in threads like this before.  I sincerely hope the results of this one turn out better.

!i!

It's totally okay to have a child that grows up to be, like, Martin Luther King or Gandhi or Joss Whedon or like that.  After all, every sperm is sacred!

But it's horribly immoral to have a child that grows up to be, like, Ted Bundy or Charles Manson.  Shoulda used protection, you jerk!

Simply, really!  If you want to be a good parent, have good kids.

Ian, did you want to participate, or just play Cassandra?

James:  What an interesting topic!  This should allow for hours of autofellatio by our resident philosophers!

Thanks for remaining a sure sign that a thread is waste of my motherfucking time.

LOVE

FG

So why bother posting if it's such a waste? Or is it that you're just begging for a waste of your time to come along so you can act muy macho while wasting your time?

It wasn't my topic, someone else (John Morrow I believe) brought it up and I transplanted it here at Akrasia's request.

Did you have anything to say about the topic, or are you too busy feeling superior about not posting in time wasting threads that you just posted in?

I honestly believe the potential damage caused by letting any government decide who should be allowed to bear children is much much worse than our present stance. Come to think of it I wouldn't trust myself to make decisions like this.

No love for my post, James?

Quote from: James McMurrayIn response to John's most recent question, I'd definitely prohibit people from having children if I could. I think there should at the very least be an age limit and a test you have to pass. I'd also be in favor of some sort of monetary prerequisite for having kids, to make sure that children aren't born to people that can't afford them.

Is this a quest to eradicate poor people?

I kinda figured you were being facetious.

I agree that yes, having great kids makes it much easier to be considered a great parent.

Quote from: Garry GI honestly believe the potential damage caused by letting any government decide who should be allowed to bear children is much much worse than our present stance. Come to think of it I wouldn't trust myself to make decisions like this.

I'm sure there are better qualified people than myself to make the decision, but it's one that really needs to be made. The human race is growing at an amazing race. As we get bigger and bigger the balancing imperatives in nature that stop species from getting to large are going to have to get nastier and nastier.

Our advances in medical technology combined with our undisputed standing at the top of the food chain means we've got very few means of population control that don't involve plague and/or interspecies violence. Unless we curb the growth we'll eventually hit a point of no return where the only way we can survive is to escape the planet to free up more real estate or some cataclysmic event drops the population to a more managable level.

Likewise there are people who quite frankly are not fit to raise children. These are people for whom their children wind up abused, abandoned, or worse. These are people who cannot psychologically or physically care forr children and they become drains on society which usually grow up to give birth to another generation of drains.

Quote from: One Horse TownIs this a quest to eradicate poor people?

Well they clearly don't deserve kids.

Quote from: One Horse TownIs this a quest to eradicate poor people?

No. It's a quest to avoid having people give birth to children they can't afford.

Quote from: James McMurrayI kinda figured you were being facetious.

Not really, no.

Quote from: James McMurrayI agree that yes, having great kids makes it much easier to be considered a great parent.

And having happy kids, too, of course.

It seems to me that all of your criteria on who should and should not have children is aimed at making it more likely that people who have children will have happy, virtuous children who contribute to society.

If you knew that a kid was going to grow up poor and deprived, but even so he'd be happy and contribute to society (a situation well known to each of the waves of immigrants who have successively poured into our country) would that knowledge make a difference in terms of whether it was virtuous to bear that child?

Quote from: James McMurrayI'm sure there are better qualified people than myself to make the decision, but it's one that really needs to be made. The human race is growing at an amazing race. As we get bigger and bigger the balancing imperatives in nature that stop species from getting to large are going to have to get nastier and nastier.

I'me going to need you to identify who these better qualified people are, why they are better qualified otherwise I can't place any trust in them.

Quote from: James McMurrayOur advances in medical technology combined with our undisputed standing at the top of the food chain means we've got very few means of population control that don't involve plague and/or interspecies violence. Unless we curb the growth we'll eventually hit a point of no return where the only way we can survive is to escape the planet to free up more real estate or some cataclysmic event drops the population to a more managable level.

This is an old argument about something that keeps not happening and I don't worry about much as the population of my country is actually falling.

Quote from: James McMurrayLikewise there are people who quite frankly are not fit to raise children. These are people for whom their children wind up abused, abandoned, or worse. These are people who cannot psychologically or physically care forr children and they become drains on society which usually grow up to give birth to another generation of drains.

Once again I need to know who decides who are fit and not and how you intend to enforce such measures. If you want to give control of your basic biological processes over to a government you'd better be very careful.

Quote from: James McMurrayNo. It's a quest to avoid having people give birth to children they can't afford.

That still manages to eradicate poor people whilst ignoring the vast amount of fine people who came from incredibly poor backgrounds. Nice one.