Hello, everyone.
These questions are mainly directed towards the Uruguayans on the forum, but I'd welcome information from anyone who has it.
My wife and I are getting pretty concerned about the US economy. Bush is denying that there's a problem, and the Fed seems to be making all the wrong moves. From what I'm reading, it seems like we're heading towards a new Depression.
My wife, son, and I have our passport forms. We're looking into our options, and Uruguay is a strong contender.
But I'm not sure. I have $1,400 guaranteed income per month, plus whatever I make from writing. I'm thinking about trying to sell to global markets if the US writer's market gets too tight.
If the US goes into a depression or even a deep recession-which seems inevitable-will my minimum income support a family of three? What I don't want to have happen is to move down there, and then have basic goods become unfordable with US dollars, making my family deal with the brunt of the depression anyway, except in a foreign country with no support network. My wife is willing to find work down there to add what she can to our income.
I guess what I'm asking is how far can I expect the US Dollar to go in Uruguay if it falls to 1929-30s levels?
For what its worth, if the US falls to 1929-30 levels, there will be no safe place. As much ground as we've lost in the Global Market (tm) biz, there are still far too many ties to the rest of the world for anyone to escape unscathed.
I doubt the economy will tank that bad, Manuel. If it did, you'd be better off buying a gun.
Quote from: WerekoalaFor what its worth, if the US falls to 1929-30 levels, there will be no safe place. As much ground as we've lost in the Global Market (tm) biz, there are still far too many ties to the rest of the world for anyone to escape unscathed.
This hypothesis neglects consideration of countries that are at present basically making money of the very causes of our current slump.
Mmm... nah, not really. I just assume that they're tied into us so deeply in one way or another they'll suffer as well. Could be wrong. Doubt it. :)
Of course, I don't believe we're headed for another great depression. We're not even in a recession yet.
Quote from: WerekoalaFor what its worth, if the US falls to 1929-30 levels, there will be no safe place.
Well, not totally safe, no. But both of my parents grew up in a largely self-sufficient rural, agricultural backwater, and the effects of the Great Depression weren't nearly as profound as in urban areas. As she put it once, the community as a whole had to go without a lot of things they'd gotten used to, but everyone got by okay.
So, I guess the message is to look for a country with a less globalised and more self-sufficient, localised economy.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWell, not totally safe, no. But both of my parents grew up in a largely self-sufficient rural, agricultural backwater, and the effects of the Great Depression weren't nearly as profound as in urban areas. As she put it once, the community as a whole had to go without a lot of things they'd gotten used to, but everyone got by okay.
So, I guess the message is to look for a country with a less globalised and more self-sufficient, localised economy.
Agreed - my Grandparents were farmers and I don't think they ever really noticed, because they just "got by" their whole life.
Maybe Uruguay IS a good option.
There's a lot to be said about the closeness and familiarity of a small community, too. My mother has all kinds of stories about the lines of barter and informal credit that would crop up, simply because, being more directly accountable to the whole community, people generally didn't want to let anyone else suffer. On the more mercenary side of things, it also paid to be known for your generosity.
On a purely anecdotal tangent, my mother's father was a ditributor for Union Oil. During the Depression, he used to hitch his draught horses to a horse-drawn tanker to deliver heatng oil to people's homes. When customers would complain that they had no way of paying him, he'd testily wave them off and tell them that they could settle their accounts when things got better -- there was just no way he was going to let anyone freeze to death in the middle of winter.
So, whether you move to Uruguay or not, how well do you know your neighbors? What would you be willing to do for them if the shit came down?
!i!
Hey there. I just came back from a trip to Buenos Aires, but here are some quickies:
1) The guaranteed income you mentioned can make things much easier.
2) Pundit can give you the outsider perspective into this. We should all bug him to answer this in detail! :D
3) Do you and/or your family speak any language other than English?
4) What's your line of work?
More after I can have some rest.
Manuel,
The real question is whether you speak the language, whether you'd adapt well to the culture (hint: If you're a vegetarian, you probably won't! On the other hand, if you've spent time in Europe and loved it, you probably will), etc etc.
If you have a guaranteed monthly income in dollars, then you're in good shape in Uruguay, and your dollar will UNDOUBTEDLY go much farther than it would in the U.S. (or, god help you, in Europe), without any really meaningful loss of quality. On the contrary, with 1400 US a month (at the current exchange rate) you'd be able to afford a comfortable apartment/house and an upper-upper-middleclass lifestyle, including things that you couldn't possibly have in North America with that same amount of money (like a maid or regular restaurant visits).
Just to give you some perspectives in US dollar terms:
1lt Coca Cola (glass bottle) = $1
1lt Bottle of Beer = $1.50
Rent on a 2 bedroom downtown apartment with a living room, den, and 2 bathrooms = $470 (this might vary, by neighbourhood and your luck in finding a place; and your place might not include a jacuzzi like mine :D )
telephone service and unlimited broadband internet = $125 (this is one example of something that is generally more expensive here than in north america, but if you don't need broadband there are much cheaper plans that are limited either in limits or download size)
Dinner in a regular restaurant, per person = $10, including drinks
Dinner in a five-star restaurant, per person = $30
Medical care at the Española (one of the better private hospitals) = $ 70 per month (there are cheaper places with lower quality care, and that is also the cost for a single person, I know there are package deals for families)
weekend vacation to Buenos Aires = $250 (if you're not going nuts with the splurging; and again, the cost is for a single adult)
If you want any other price ranges, just let me know.
Oh, and having a large eager and relatively social gaming community = priceless
Again, though, if the US economy tanks I have no idea what'll happen here, as some have pointed out at the moment the low US dollar has had some beneficial side effects, though it does mean that anyone earning in US dollars is getting less bang for their buck here than they used to.
Basically, I've had a lot of Uruguayans say to me, and my own personal experience agrees 100%, "Uruguay is paradise, if you've got some money". I wouldn't really advise anyone to come down here hoping to earn a living WORKING in Uruguay; but if you are earning a steady income already in some form that allows you to live in Uruguay while you do that work, then you will find it very comfortable. The average middle-class family in Uruguay earns less than the amount you specified. If you're sure you'll keep earning that in the forseeable future, then I'd say you should base your decision more on the question of whether you or your family would be able to adjust to the culture than whether or not you'll be able to make it economically, because with that amount of money your quality of life will definitely be higher here than it would be living on that amount of money in the States.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditRent on a 2 bedroom downtown apartment with a living room, den, and 2 bathrooms = $470 (this might vary, by neighbourhood and your luck in finding a place; and your place might not include a jacuzzi like mine :D )
For about $70k-$80k, you can
buy a 3 bedroom & 2 bathroom house w/ backyard BBQ in Cordón (a nice, middle class neighbourhood that is right next to Downtown and about 15 minutes away from the beaches).
Quotetelephone service and unlimited broadband internet = $125 (this is one example of something that is generally more expensive here than in north america, but if you don't need broadband there are much cheaper plans that are limited either in limits or download size)
Pundit's broadband prices are a bit off, though he is including the monthly phone bill. Here are some sample broadband prices:
$28/month (384 Kb)
$44/month (768 Kb)
$60/month (1.5 Mb)
$94/month (2.25 Mb)
You can add 100 minutes of international calls to those prices for about $5.
QuoteAgain, though, if the US economy tanks I have no idea what'll happen here, as some have pointed out at the moment the low US dollar has had some beneficial side effects, though it does mean that anyone earning in US dollars is getting less bang for their buck here than they used to.
It does seem that the government is keen on keeping the exchange rate at a little over 1 Dollar x 20 Pesos.
You can still buy books through Amazon.com without any problems. I know I do. :D
Oh, I forgot to add one thing: Income generated outside the country is not taxed.
Yes indeedy, that's a very important point Jong makes there, regarding income.
And the Cordon was my old neighbourhood and it was great; if you have kids it'd be a better place for them than downtown, which can be a little rough.
And yes, for the internet I was assuming the best possible home broadband option, and including the cost of basic telephone service.
RPGPundit
Interesting, my wife and I are starting to plan our retirement-it's a long ways off, but we figured we'd start now. Uruguay is on our short list of countries we've considered retiring to. (She's from Spain, and we've both traveled outside of the US extensively.)
Much of our reasoning is that our retirement dollars may go farther in Uruguay, assuming things don't tank that badly-and we don't lose our asses. Plus Uruguay meets the few terrain, and climate needs that we have.
One problem we're running into at the moment is trying to find a realtor in Uruguay that we can trust.
Quote from: Serious PaulOne problem we're running into at the moment is trying to find a realtor in Uruguay that we can trust.
I have a friend who worked in the real estate business. I can check with her next week.
Quote from: JongWKI have a friend who worked in the real estate business. I can check with her next week.
If it helps we won't have the money for a sizable down payment till this fall. We're in no hurry to rush into something, so if she's got the patience for some knuckleheads like us that'd be great!
Monster Manuel, I forgot to tell you in rpg.net this, whatever you do, whether it's Ireland or Uruguay, I wish you the best. :)
Don't forget to tell us what you did!
Quote from: ClaudiusMonster Manuel, I forgot to tell you in rpg.net this, whatever you do, whether it's Ireland or Uruguay, I wish you the best. :)
Don't forget to tell us what you did!
Ireland? $1400 won't go far in Ireland these days.
Balbinus, you know, I was talking in general. ;)
Dear god. That's almost as good as living in the Czech Republic, which I did for a year. And I'm think the weather in Uruguay is much nicer than that of Prague.
How well would an English-speaking person fare in Uruguay? My Spanish is extremely rusty and was never very good (I lived in La Paz, Baja Mexico, for a year when I was 12, but haven't used any Spanish in twenty years), but I never needed to use Czech once (well, except "proseem" which means "please/thank you/you're welcome/excuse me," a very handy word) when living in Prague thanks to the sheer number of English speakers (it helped that I was teaching English as a second language, and most of the people I met were interested in practicing their English at every opportunity).
Are there many English speakers? Enough that I can find people to talk to? I mean, all of the Uruguayans here seem to be very fluent in English.
Quote from: JackalopeAre there many English speakers? Enough that I can find people to talk to? I mean, all of the Uruguayans here seem to be very fluent in English.
Honestly? There are many, enough that if someone wanted to visit, even for a few months, I would have no qualms about recommending them. On the other hand, if your goal was to live here, I personally don't think I would recommend it if you didn't speak Spanish or weren't willing/able to learn very quickly.
RPGPundit
Thanks everyone, and sorry for taking so long to come back to the thread.
We're still not sure what we're going to do, but we're keeping our options open. My wife really wanted Ireland, but she hasn't heard back from any jobs. Unlike Uruguay, we can't possibly live there on my base income alone. We're concerned about this because the income beyond my base income is intermittent at best. It doesn't help that I've been going through a crisis of faith in my ability for a while, and haven't finished anything.
Just a few things- My wife is fluent in Spanish, and about 12 years ago, I was close enough to act in Spanish language plays using Castillian. Our son doesn't know any Spanish beyond a few phrases, but he's still at the age where kids are supposed to be able to pick up languages quickly.
I didn't want to get into it, but my $1400 isn't all I make- it's what I get even if I don't work. It's basically a trust fund designed not to make things too easy on me. It's the minimum, and it's economy proof. Eventually, and hopefully not too soon, I'll inherit a few million dollars in property and cash. I'd like to make my own money as a writer before then. We'll see.
I'm still hoping for Uruguay, but I'm not sure what we're going to do. We've even talked about buying some cheap land somewhere in the US and building a simple cabin or earth-sheltered home.
Quote from: Monster ManuelThanks everyone, and sorry for taking so long to come back to the thread.
We're still not sure what we're going to do, but we're keeping our options open. My wife really wanted Ireland, but she hasn't heard back from any jobs. Unlike Uruguay, we can't possibly live there on my base income alone. We're concerned about this because the income beyond my base income is intermittent at best. It doesn't help that I've been going through a crisis of faith in my ability for a while, and haven't finished anything.
Just a few things- My wife is fluent in Spanish, and about 12 years ago, I was close enough to act in Spanish language plays using Castillian. Our son doesn't know any Spanish beyond a few phrases, but he's still at the age where kids are supposed to be able to pick up languages quickly.
I didn't want to get into it, but my $1400 isn't all I make- it's what I get even if I don't work. It's basically a trust fund designed not to make things too easy on me. It's the minimum, and it's economy proof. Eventually, and hopefully not too soon, I'll inherit a few million dollars in property and cash. I'd like to make my own money as a writer before then. We'll see.
I'm still hoping for Uruguay, but I'm not sure what we're going to do. We've even talked about buying some cheap land somewhere in the US and building a simple cabin or earth-sheltered home.
You sound like you'd be perfect for Uruguay. If your wife speaks spanish (and I presume she speaks english as well?) it would be very easy for her to get work, at the very least working as an english teacher if she wanted, but if not she could end up working in zonamerica or one of those better-paying corporate-enclave jobs where Jong is.
I am essentially a writer for a living here, and I have to say on the personal note, that its awesome. This city is made for writers, for anyone who lives what my old professor used to call "a non-industrial lifestyle" (where one isn't working 9-5 or shiftwork). The cafe culture is awesome, the little street fairs are awesome, the beach (if you like beaches) is awesome, there's even a fairly awesome park.
I wouldn't worry about the kid picking up spanish, if you and the wife can speak it, you're golden.
What you should really do is take a short vacation here, and see if you like it. Then you could decide. I'd recommend you either do that really soon (before the end of april), or wait till october, though, since the really nice summer season is coming to an end fairly quickly.
Although I guess you could visit in the middle of July, and experience Uruguay at its most cold and most miserable; figuring that if you can like it then, you'd be able to like it all year round. :p
RPGPundit
Humidity is what can make winters miserable here. I think that 50% of Americans would probably laugh about what we call "cold winter."
Quote from: JongWKHumidity is what can make winters miserable here. I think that 50% of Americans would probably laugh about what we call "cold winter."
Personally, I find its not so much humidity as technology.
In canada, we have indoor heating in every single house, plus massive insulation. So outside it might be -30ºC, but inside the house it can be +30 if you want.
On the other hand, in Uruguay there's no insulation and no indoor heating; so when its 5ºC outside, its also 5ºC inside.
And you can get a space heater or a gas heater or whatever, but because of the poor insulation the heat disperses almost as quickly as its generated; you never really get to the point where you feel totally comfortable, so for two or three months of the year you spend every hour of every day being at least a little chilly.
Of course, this is paid back in a big way the rest of the year, when the country has gorgeous weather.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditOn the other hand, in Uruguay there's no insulation and no indoor heating; so when its 5ºC outside, its also 5ºC inside.
And you can get a space heater or a gas heater or whatever, but because of the poor insulation the heat disperses almost as quickly as its generated; you never really get to the point where you feel totally comfortable, so for two or three months of the year you spend every hour of every day being at least a little chilly.
You might want to look at some of the solutions that the Japanese have come up with -- they don't insulate their homes at all. They have these tables that have a heater built into the underside of the table, with a connected skirt/blanket, so that you can sit at the table and be very warm despite sitting in a freezing room.
I just wish I could remember the damn name for those tables.
Update: We haven't made a move yet, but my media-fueled hysteria over the economy has died down.
We're once again looking for a change, and I brought up the possibility of Uruguay again. We're going to discuss it.
Hello Manuel! If you any questions, feel free to ask. :)
Quote from: Monster Manuel;237848Update: We haven't made a move yet, but my media-fueled hysteria over the economy has died down.
You must be reading different media than I am.
Would you consider Asia?? If you're really interested in working, saving money & living comfortably you might want to consider it. When my wife and I came to VN, neither of us spoke any VNamese. 8 years later...we've saved around 50% of our combined salary EVERY YEAR, built a new house, invested in the stock market, and had 2 children. I'm a teacher, and my wife is working in management for a large sporting goods manufacturer. At least in business, it is truly an employee's market here, since there are so few qualified VNamese for the higher-paying jobs. My wife pays around $250 in taxes a month, I pay $0 because of my employer's tax-exempt status. My daughter is attending an international school which is comparable in price to an American private school, with the added bonus of a genuine tri-lingual education. We don't have a car - we get by fine with taxis and my motorcycle - around $50 in gas/fares a week. Emergency medical care at foreign-run private hospitals can be a little expensive, but in general things like dentistry or pediatrics are around 1/4 of the price in the US. Broadband cable TV/internet is around $28/month. When we were renting, our 4-story 3-bedroom FURNISHED house cost $500/month.
The best thing...both of us receive our salary in cash US$. Last month, the Vietnamese dong did a daily dance which sent the locals into a panic. It sent us to the jewelry shop to change more dollars.
Ok, Kellri, on the whole it sounds about par (maybe a little cheaper) than Uruguay, but what's the gaming scene like there?
RPGPundit
We're looking at relocating. I'm going to move to Uruguay and kick your butt.
The courtship rites are different there, droog.
He totally has a crush on me.
Quote from: Kellri;237903Would you consider Asia?? If you're really interested in working, saving money & living comfortably you might want to consider it. When my wife and I came to VN, neither of us spoke any VNamese. 8 years later...we've saved around 50% of our combined salary EVERY YEAR, built a new house, invested in the stock market, and had 2 children.
For the record, the other day, a friend of mine who teaches English in Japan was complaining about having topped out his salary expectations as a contract employee, and about getting jerked around every three years by the contract company. I recalled your description of work in Viet Nam and suggested that he and his (Japanese) wife might consider relocation there.
!i!
Quotea friend of mine who teaches English in Japan was complaining about having topped out his salary expectations as a contract employee, and about getting jerked around every three years by the contract company
This is big problem in Korea, Japan and Taiwan. The market is flooded with recently graduated knuckleheads out to 'see the world for a year'. Actual teaching experience or qualifications gets trampled on when folks are willing to work for peanuts. It helps to have some kind of backup income - my wife and I did and still do translation work. Another friend of mine in Taiwan moonlights as a stage & therapeutic hypnotist.
A few tips for prospective teachers: DO NOT sign an exclusive contract with any privately owned school or business UNLESS they are paying way more than you would make working at 3 or 4 different places. Make sure you get your own visa not tied to the school. Do not agree to pay any kind of salary security deposit. If you have more that 20 hours of contact time a week, you are a full time teacher. Demand to be treated like any other full-time worker in that country as regards to insurance or health benefits. Respect yourself at all times...don't get roped into doing free language-exchange or translation. After all, the people who ask wouldn't ask a lawyer or a doctor to work for free. And remember....you're a teacher and at least 4 months paid vacation a year is standard.
QuoteOk, Kellri, on the whole it sounds about par (maybe a little cheaper) than Uruguay, but what's the gaming scene like there?
A lot like Lake Geneva in 1965....we're on the verge, man! ON THE VERGE!