http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/26/dungeons-dragons-threatens-prison-security-court-rules/?test=latestnews
Well, at least it might become evil and dangerous again...so there's that.
I have a hard time feeling sorry for the inmates. At least a part of the assumption in getting jail time is that you are paying your debt to society for the crimes you committed. It shouldn't be a vacation. At the same time, there should be a rehabilitation program in place, so that the individual may reintegrate main stream society once said debt is paid. Role playing games could actually prove useful towards such a goal, as tool, rather than just entertainment.
So, forbidding inmates to play role playing games altogether is totally within the rights of the prison's administration, in my mind. It's kind of silly, however. Authorizing role playing games in some supervised activity specifically designed to help rehabilitate the inmates would make everyone happy. This is a missed opportunity, IMO.
Holy shit, is the tone of that article ever condescending.
Quote from: two_fishes;435565Holy shit, is the tone of that article ever condescending.
At the same time, I'm surprised they didn't go all apeshit on the subject. Come on... it's Fuck News, after all.
They can take all the D&D materials away from the inmates, but they can't really stop them from role-playing. Randomizers can be made from anything.
I'm with Benoist in that it's really a missed opportunity to make a positive change in the inmates lives.
That is a load of crap. I can think of no better punishment for inmates than forcing them to play D&D 4e.
:hatsoff:
Quote from: paladinca;435571that is a load of crap. I can think of no better punishment for inmates than forcing them to play d&d 4e.
:hatsoff:
zing!!! :D
force them to play exalted would be worse imo, heck just reading the rules and trying to make sense of them is bad enough :)
Zip over to the linked Geeks Are Sexy article. One of the major complaints by the prison's administration is that the inmates would learn to seek resolution for disputes from other prisoners instead of the correctional staff. You know, just like real people do every day.
Did no one actually read what they said? Gaming encourages the organization of gangs which is what they are trying to dissuade. It's also prison - they are being punished. D&D is a game, not some form of therapy.
Prisons in America are pretty much useless, poorly-run shit-holes that satiate immoral desires. This is more shit-holery from them.
Quote from: brettmb;435595Did no one actually read what they said? Gaming encourages the organization of gangs which is what they are trying to dissuade. It's also prison - they are being punished. D&D is a game, not some form of therapy.
I was totally unable to stay out of the gang lifestyle back in my heyday of playing during high school.
Something being missed here is when it's the Aryan Nation guys running a campaign, or the Mexican Mafia. I bet they aren't killing orcs when they play.
Quote from: brettmb;435595D&D is a game, not some form of therapy.
LEGOs are toys you play with. They can be used with therapeutic aims nonetheless.
Same thing with say, a card game.
Same thing with D&D.
Quote from: Benoist;435625LEGOs are toys you play with. They can be used with therapeutic aims nonetheless.
Same thing with say, a card game.
Same thing with D&D.
Maybe in therapy, but not in prison.
After reading both of the links it pretty much looks like a case of non-gamers don't get gamers.
The trouble started when a guard got a tip that a group of inmates were starting a 'D&D Gang' and were trying to get people to join it. By that definition we are all guilty of forming organized gangs and should probably do time for it.
The objections raised were fairly laughable, such as "it encourages prisoners to fantasize about not being in prison." Is there a prisoner who doesn't think about leaving prison?
The positiong of DM was likened to criminal kingpin who gave orders which are carried out unquestioningly...as if. I've never run a game where my word was law. RPGers are the most argumentative group of people on this planet.
Finally, yes prison is punishment for a crime, but it's also supposed to be rehabilitation. Roleplaying games are a form of social interaction and one of the primary problems cited by experts is that ex-cons have trouble interacting with people once they get out of prison. I also don't have problems with recreation for prisoners. Humans need both physical and mental exercise to be healthy, denying it to a prisoner is unjust.
Of course the current prison system in the US is pretty much crap so making reasoned arguments is kind of like talking philosophy with a wolverine.
Quote from: Benoist;435625LEGOs are toys you play with. They can be used with therapeutic aims nonetheless.
Got any citations to go with that? Any psychologists or psychiatrists saying they use Lego therapy to treat their patients?
Legos might be used in conjunction with therapy, but they themselves are not a form of therapy. They are not the sine qua non of the therapy.
Same thing with D&D.
Seanchai
Quote from: Seanchai;435638Legos might be used in conjunction with therapy, but they themselves are not a form of therapy.
Which is not what I said. I said they could be used with therapeutic aims, which is just another way of saying what you're saying. Whether we're talking about concentration, spacial skills, coordination etc LEGOs can be used as part of the therapy. Same thing with role playing games - and no, I don't mean JL Moreno's applications of role playing necessarily, no. I'm speaking of bog standard RPGs, like D&D or whatnot.
Quote from: brettmb;435629Maybe in therapy, but not in prison.
Because you can't have therapy in prison?
Quote from: Benoist;435642Because you can't have therapy in prison?
In a controlled environment, sure. Not in a prison cell, surrounded by other prisoners.
Quote from: brettmb;435644In a controlled environment, sure. Not in a prison cell, surrounded by other prisoners.
I agree.
Is it just me, or the article refers to D&D as a "board game"?
Several times?
O wait... it's Fox News.
Quote from: Benoist;435650I agree.
I wouldn't. There are all kinds of group therapy sessions going on in prisons around the country.
To expand a bit on IceBlinkLuck, the primary behavioural issue that lands most people in jail is
impulse control. Specifically, the lack thereof. If the singular result of these people playing D&D behind bars is that they
talk to a fellow inmate about an interpersonal issue instead of putting a shiv between their ribs, then epic fucking win. If for no other reason, that is why the correctional staff should be
hosting D&D sessions instead of trying to prevent the inmates from playing. What safer way is there to learn that running into a room and trying to stab everyone in the face is a
really bad idea?
Quote from: The Butcher;435656Is it just me, or the article refers to D&D as a "board game"?
Several times?
O wait... it's Fox News.
It is pretty easy to mistake 4e for a board game, especially if you don't know what the people are doing. Did you expect anyone in the American media that doesn't game to actually get it right?
Quote from: Benoist;435641Which is not what I said. I said they could be used with therapeutic aims, which is just another way of saying what you're saying.
Mea culpa. I misunderstood.
Seanchai
Quote from: StormBringer;435671I wouldn't. There are all kinds of group therapy sessions going on in prisons around the country.
You misunderstood.
I agree with Brett, that for role playing games to be beneficial in terms of rehabilitation, they'd have to be used in a controlled environment within the prison, as part of a program designed to help the inmates with some aspects of say, socialization, cooperation, whatnot. They could not have rehabilitation effects if just left as an entertainment for inmates in their cells, and indeed, this might actually have a reverse effect on them, in which they create a group dynamic that exists outside of the boundaries of prison environment, which could provide a kind of escapism that would ultimately damage their chances at rehabilitation, instead of helping them with it.
Just an interesting tidbit: This story was on the radio this morning (BJ Shay, who apparently is a gamer, or was...).
The GM was a lifelong GM in 'real life' until he killed his sister's boyfriend, and is now a lifer in prison.
The radio guys did find the idea of preventing D&D in prison laughable, but then again, they found the idea of a gamer being a hardened murderer somewhat laughable as well.
Quote from: Benoist;435834You misunderstood.
I agree with Brett, that for role playing games to be beneficial in terms of rehabilitation, they'd have to be used in a controlled environment within the prison, as part of a program designed to help the inmates with some aspects of say, socialization, cooperation, whatnot. They could not have rehabilitation effects if just left as an entertainment for inmates in their cells, and indeed, this might actually have a reverse effect on them, in which they create a group dynamic that exists outside of the boundaries of prison environment, which could provide a kind of escapism that would ultimately damage their chances at rehabilitation, instead of helping them with it.
We will have to disagree, then. Simply learning to co-operate and resolve differences non-violently is a huge advance for most inmates. They don't need a psychologist around to direct them towards that. I don't think there is any way to really separate the learning inherent to RPGs from the enjoyment, which is why they are so valuable, especially in this instance.
Quote from: StormBringer;435863We will have to disagree, then. Simply learning to co-operate and resolve differences non-violently is a huge advance for most inmates. They don't need a psychologist around to direct them towards that. I don't think there is any way to really separate the learning inherent to RPGs from the enjoyment, which is why they are so valuable, especially in this instance.
That's wishful thinking, but not at all grounded in reality.
Quote from: The Butcher;435656Is it just me, or the article refers to D&D as a "board game"?
Several times?
O wait... it's Fox News.
That slam was not needed.
If it was presented in the court room as a 'board game' - then thats how
ANY news source will report it.
Also if you look at the end of the article
D&D gamers are referred to as
role-players. - Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;435921That slam was not needed.
Well, it
is Fix News, though.
Note: I haven't read the article, but allow me to dust off my decades old psych studies from College...
D&D creates a power dynamic. We can groan and roll our eyes at the idea, but it's true. Me DM, you player. Me fighter big and strong, you magic user, weak and squishy (or me magic-user mighty and arcane, you fighter, dumb and armored). Cleric, will you heal me. Well, I don't know, you're not my alignment/faith. Thief pick the lock. Well I dunno, you guys were kind of dicks to me.
This is, for all of us, "shut up and do it already and hey grab yourself a slice of pizza."
For them...well. I will relate what a con told us in a psych class (he was on good behavior furlough for the day to talk to our class, Deviant Behavior): when he first started doing his talks and travels (accompanied by an armed corrections officer, I might add, as he was this day), he said the thing he had to learn to do when he was walking on campus was to put his hands deep in his pockets and lock his elbows. Why? Because in prison (this is in the US, in Florida, by the way) when someone brushed up against him, casually, his reaction was hit or stab. Or grab them and beat them against something. Because that brush up against was a power game. Or a precursor to an attack. Just brushing up against someone!
There's a guy in my game, ex Ranger, served in Iraq and Afghanistan, swell guy. Took me to lunch for my birthday back on the 23rd. I have - the dice have - killed characters of his more times than I can easily recall. Time and time and time again. It's the joke of the AD&D game. When his characters have lived past six or eight sessions we celebrate. I've never set out to intentionally off his characters. Ever. Never. There's people in my games who've run characters for months without suffering a death.
Now transpose my comment on my game to that guys reaction to just being brushed up against. Do you think giving cons with that kind of mindset ("He brushed up against me - I gotta give him a stabbing.") a random chance that their fun could be spoiled ("Sorry, cholo, your character is dead. You blew another save.") and it happen over and over and over like it does to that guy in my group is a good idea?
It is not.
Checkers and Chess, even cards, you can learn to play and play well. Dice are the great leveler - you can eat sleep and breath the Players Handbook. Memorize every "From the Sorcerer's Scroll" from the first issue of The Strategic Review to Dragon's last issue, and throw in Unearthed Arcana and the Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, Fiend Folio and Deities & Demigods all for good measure and a "1" on save v. death is still a "1" (or fort save, or whatever saving throws have become, it doesn't matter).
It creates a power dynamic whereby the DM seemingly has the power of life over death, and if you're talking about people ready to fight and die for being touched in passing, then "Hey man, it ain't me, it's the dice" means little to nothing.
Good point.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;436000It creates a power dynamic whereby the DM seemingly has the power of life over death, and if you're talking about people ready to fight and die for being touched in passing, then "Hey man, it ain't me, it's the dice" means little to nothing.
You are talking about the 'Scared Straight' kind of lifelong hardened criminal, though. Admittedly, the DM they interviewed was in for murder, but it was likely some kind of third degree what the hell ever.
Again, you are talking about
impulse control. If all the inmates can get out of this is a little better impulse control, they are getting magnitudes of order more help than the prison system currently gives them, as evidenced by your anecdote.
And since the prevailing attitude seems to be moving in a direction that I am advocating it works with perfect reliability in every single case; obviously not. Put if it can help get some of these people on the road to not trying to fight or kill for accidental contact, I would say 'bring on the dice'.
I mean, seriously? No one thinks there is any possible way for these inmates to help themselves or each other without a strict correctional or psychiatric regimen?
Quote from: StormBringer;436030You are talking about the 'Scared Straight' kind of lifelong hardened criminal, though. Admittedly, the DM they interviewed was in for murder, but it was likely some kind of third degree what the hell ever.
I'm not sure what your first sentence means; could you clarify? This guy wasn't there to "scare us straight" (although I "met" visitors like that all through junior high and highschool, I guess they were afraid if we didn't have Leroy von Stabsalot yell at us once a grade year we'd all go out and felony the first person we saw...) Every day this guy came out and did things like that took a day off his time. Shit, if he was sincere he may even be out by now...anyway...
QuoteAgain, you are talking about impulse control. If all the inmates can get out of this is a little better impulse control, they are getting magnitudes of order more help than the prison system currently gives them, as evidenced by your anecdote.
The inmates don't
have impulse control: to brush against is to go to war. I can only imagine it's worse, or different but just as bad, now. And please understand, despite my conservatism I'm not suggesting that these guys one and all are animals lock them up and throw away the key! On the contrary, I'd wager probably half of inmates or more go in as perfectly normal people and
must become sociopaths
because of the institutional environment. The fellow I discussed earlier was institutionalized at twelve, and even in the Juvenile facilities ("gladiator academy" he called it), they had just as severe problems. He learned it on the way up. The reform of the system from within
must start. BUT...
QuoteAnd since the prevailing attitude seems to be moving in a direction that I am advocating it works with perfect reliability in every single case; obviously not. Put if it can help get some of these people on the road to not trying to fight or kill for accidental contact, I would say 'bring on the dice'.
...D&D is not the way. It cannot be the way. Power dynamic, power dynamic, power dynamic. It's already there. Let white collar, 9 month tennis prison you got caught stealing identities play D&D. There is something
way more fundamental that has to be reformed within the penal system in this country before we can consider frivolities like "hey can Bubba McCarjacker be the ranger". Letting inmates play D&D, that's item number 931 on the list of things to do to "fix" prisons. Right now the chief hurdle is convincing the powers that be that something needs to be done at all and that there even IS a list. Get these guys to respect each other outside of prison power dynamics BEFORE you say "you can pretend kill him for slights".
QuoteI mean, seriously? No one thinks there is any possible way for these inmates to help themselves or each other without a strict correctional or psychiatric regimen?
Most of them? No. I don't. And it largely isn't their fault, it's the fault of the institutional arrangement they're in. I have a cousin who was faced with a "choice" while in the
county lockup for a couple of months to become a punk, a bitch or do something about the situation that would elevate him to Felon and ... well he'd probably be in prison now.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;436053I'm not sure what your first sentence means; could you clarify? This guy wasn't there to "scare us straight" (although I "met" visitors like that all through junior high and highschool, I guess they were afraid if we didn't have Leroy von Stabsalot yell at us once a grade year we'd all go out and felony the first person we saw...) Every day this guy came out and did things like that took a day off his time. Shit, if he was sincere he may even be out by now...anyway...
Scared Straight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scared_Straight!)
The point is that the guy you saw in your class is exactly the kind of inmate that would stab someone over a minor disturbance. As I am sure you are aware, other inmates don't have that same problem. Of course, mixing them all together in the general population almost certainly induces the behaviour in otherwise less violent inmates. That problem would have to be addressed within the context of who is allowed to engage in other pursuits like D&D and who shouldn't be.
QuoteThe inmates don't have impulse control: to brush against is to go to war. I can only imagine it's worse, or different but just as bad, now. And please understand, despite my conservatism I'm not suggesting that these guys one and all are animals lock them up and throw away the key! On the contrary, I'd wager probably half of inmates or more go in as perfectly normal people and must become sociopaths because of the institutional environment. The fellow I discussed earlier was institutionalized at twelve, and even in the Juvenile facilities ("gladiator academy" he called it), they had just as severe problems. He learned it on the way up. The reform of the system from within must start. BUT...
And despite my liberalism, I have no illusions that all of the inmates are equally salvageable. Some of them are truly just broken, usually due to mental illness. The major crisis, from what I can see, is putting non-violent offenders in with the general population.
Of course they end up violent on the way out; what choice do they have?
Quote...D&D is not the way. It cannot be the way. Power dynamic, power dynamic, power dynamic. It's already there.
I won't say it doesn't happen, but I don't hear a whole lot of stories about 'iron fisted DMs' except as an aberration.
QuoteLet white collar, 9 month tennis prison you got caught stealing identities play D&D. There is something way more fundamental that has to be reformed within the penal system in this country before we can consider frivolities like "hey can Bubba McCarjacker be the ranger". Letting inmates play D&D, that's item number 931 on the list of things to do to "fix" prisons. Right now the chief hurdle is convincing the powers that be that something needs to be done at all and that there even IS a list. Get these guys to respect each other outside of prison power dynamics BEFORE you say "you can pretend kill him for slights".
None of this is terribly unreasonable.
QuoteMost of them? No. I don't. And it largely isn't their fault, it's the fault of the institutional arrangement they're in. I have a cousin who was faced with a "choice" while in the county lockup for a couple of months to become a punk, a bitch or do something about the situation that would elevate him to Felon and ... well he'd probably be in prison now.
Exactly. As you state, it is
vitally important that people start looking at prison reform, decide once and for all why we are locking these people up, and deal with them accordingly.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;436000D&D creates a power dynamic.
Very true.
I have no problem with any violent entertainment being denied prisoners. No football, no weightlifting, no competitive sports, no D&D. They can do yoga, dance and aerobics.
Of course, I don't mean white collar or minimal security for non-violent offenders. They can play all the D&D they want.
Quote from: Koltar;435921That slam was not needed.
Fuck yeah the slam was needed.
And every slam until Faux Not News is destroyed.