Boy those numbers!

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Quote from: HappyDaze;1111586Since you've said that no good examples exist on TV, let's talk about the comics you want emulated. Is there a certain title during a certain time period that best represents the feel you want to see on the small screen?

Sorry, I had missed your response.

Did you ever watch Batman Beyond? You can't tell me it had no character growth, so maybe something like that?

As for comics, it very much depends on the show, for Arrow: Longbow Hunters, Hard Traveling Heroes.

Titans: All the Marv Wolfman & George Perez run

Batwoman: The whole run up until  when I dropped all my DC books

Supergirl: I'm drawing a blank here, but maybe the Superwoman from TN52?

Flash: Geoff Johns and Mark Waid runs

Legends of Tomorrow: This is made whole cloth but the characters there are nothing like in the comics and the costumes are just fucking horrible.

Atom there was a mini where they brought him back after Sword of The Atom.

Hawk & Dove The Barbara & Karl Kesel's run.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111611Sorry, I had missed your response.

Did you ever watch Batman Beyond? You can't tell me it had no character growth, so maybe something like that?

As for comics, it very much depends on the show, for Arrow: Longbow Hunters, Hard Traveling Heroes.

Titans: All the Marv Wolfman & George Perez run

Batwoman: The whole run up until  when I dropped all my DC books

Supergirl: I'm drawing a blank here, but maybe the Superwoman from TN52?

Flash: Geoff Johns and Mark Waid runs

Legends of Tomorrow: This is made whole cloth but the characters there are nothing like in the comics and the costumes are just fucking horrible.

Atom there was a mini where they brought him back after Sword of The Atom.

Hawk & Dove The Barbara & Karl Kesel's run.

I'll admit I don't know particular artists/writers by name, but it gives me something I can search.

Re: Losers of Tomorrow (I swear that's what I think they should be called) most of them barely wear costumes, and those that do rapidly get worked off of the show. I think that this one is worse than the two episodes of Batwoman I've seen (take this as faint praise).

As for Hawk and Dove, I like the costumes on the current Titans series (even if they don't always wear them). That series actually has really fast transitions between storylines--almost like picking up a new issue with each episode. Not a perfect series, but I like it better than the CW stuff.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1111616I'll admit I don't know particular artists/writers by name, but it gives me something I can search.

Re: Losers of Tomorrow (I swear that's what I think they should be called) most of them barely wear costumes, and those that do rapidly get worked off of the show. I think that this one is worse than the two episodes of Batwoman I've seen (take this as faint praise).

As for Hawk and Dove, I like the costumes on the current Titans series (even if they don't always wear them). That series actually has really fast transitions between storylines--almost like picking up a new issue with each episode. Not a perfect series, but I like it better than the CW stuff.

Agreed on Losers of Tomorrow.

Yeah, Hawk and Dove's costumes are very close to the original, except that Hawk's looks like armor. I don't like that.

Quote from: jhkim;1111588I don't agree with this. Not that Kate is particularly deep -- but I thought the opposite. Her being a lesbian seemed like a tacked-on part to her. Her core story is her tragic past of losing her sister and mother, and her struggle living up to her father's expectations. Her relationships to her family (father, step-sister, and sister) were the most important - and none of them make any deal out of her being lesbian. I feel like she could easily have been a man and very little would have had to be rewritten.

I'll have to see the show before I offer my own view, but this matches up to what others I've talked about it have said. Some of them quite critical on it for this and others reasons, ironically.

QuoteFor me, I also don't know of a comic-book-based television that I particularly liked, except The Tick cartoon which was great for comedy. My favorite TV series in general is The Wire. Among the superhero series out there, the ones I enjoyed the most were probably Arrow, Jessica Jones, Supergirl, and Daredevil -- mostly based on the first season for each, since I haven't watched very far in for any of them. But all of them also had major flaws from my point of view.

I liked Arrow, loved The Flash, Daredevil, The Punisher and the first season of Jessica Jones. Luke Cage didn't grab me though its had moments. Personally, I like what I guess some call 'soap opera' (Yes, Geeky, you're the first person to use the term, take a moment to compose yourself or come up some 'clever' response). Its makes the characters seem more like real people that I can relate too and provides insight into their personalities outside of their secret IDs. The Peter Parker moments were some of the best parts of Spiderman: Far from home

Does Gotham counts as a superhero show? Superhero adjacent?

Edit: FWIW, I can't recommend the later seasons of Jessica Jones. It gets pretty heavy handed. YMMV.

Not trying to change the subject as this is all of CW's fault.  I hate what they done in Riverdale which is a complete violation of every thing Archie.  It just pisses me off to see something wholesome get dragged through the gutters to become more dark and gritty.  I mean what the fuck?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1111656Not trying to change the subject as this is all of CW's fault.  I hate what they done in Riverdale which is a complete violation of every thing Archie.  It just pisses me off to see something wholesome get dragged through the gutters to become more dark and gritty.  I mean what the fuck?

See also Nancy Drew.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1111664See also Nancy Drew.

I am afraid to ask, but what did they do to Nancy Drew?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1111703I am afraid to ask, but what did they do to Nancy Drew?

One of the first scenes is her fucking a guy in a mechanic's shop. You soon discover that she barely knows the guy. More worrisome is that she has a "nobody else can be trusted" loner vibe despite being surrounded by a circle of "friends" that seem willing to go way out of their way for her when she needs help with illegal activities. Also, everyone is dodgy with skeletons in their closet so maybe she is right to be distrusting. There seems to be a not-quite-out lesbian character in her circle that, of course, can't just be open and happy with herself because then her sexuality couldn't be played up for angst. Oh, and the show seems to be going less for solving mysteries than for having supernatural elements in it. All of this from the first two episodes.

Look, I get it - when you have a show that has characters that you like and the show developers take that character in a completely different direction for the sake of drama that's really annoying.  Gilmore Girl's Rory did exactly that.  But shows always do it for the same reason - creating tension and drama gives people a reason to tune in every week.  Bob Ross has a revival now, but that's streaming fare - people aren't going to be talking about what happened with at the water cooler at work.  

Every show is trying to enter the zeitgeist, so every show has to aim for 'if you miss this episode, you missed life'.  It's dumb, and any show that lasts long enough will turn dumb as a result.  The same thing happened with Burn Notice.  It can feel like a betrayal, but 'aggrieved fan' isn't a good look.  

Nobody on this thread better be telling me that they would have watched Nancy Drew every week if they played it straight - especially not on Prime Time TV.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1111711Look, I get it - when you have a show that has characters that you like and the show developers take that character in a completely different direction for the sake of drama that's really annoying.  Gilmore Girl's Rory did exactly that.  But shows always do it for the same reason - creating tension and drama gives people a reason to tune in every week.  Bob Ross has a revival now, but that's streaming fare - people aren't going to be talking about what happened with at the water cooler at work.  

Every show is trying to enter the zeitgeist, so every show has to aim for 'if you miss this episode, you missed life'.  It's dumb, and any show that lasts long enough will turn dumb as a result.  The same thing happened with Burn Notice. It can feel like a betrayal, but 'aggrieved fan' isn't a good look.  

Nobody on this thread better be telling me that they would have watched Nancy Drew every week if they played it straight - especially not on Prime Time TV.

In other words :

Get hyped
Consume product
do not complain
Get hyped for the next shitty product
consume product

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111723In other words :

Get hyped
Consume product
do not complain
Get hyped for the next shitty product
consume product

No - you should tell people what you want and you should provide the step-by-step.  I've spilled some ink on what Star Wars Episode I, II, and III ought to have been and I'm happy to tell you about it.  But I definitely made the decision that I don't HAVE to see every Star Wars movie that comes out.  I'm disappointed with the sequels (VII, VIII), but probably not for the reasons you are (it has nothing to do with some people thinking Rey is a Mary-Sue) and I'll vote with my wallet.

But I also realize that I'm not owed anything.  It's not a personal betrayal when a company takes their IP and 'canonizes it' in a direction I don't agree with.  They can't MAKE me accept it.  For me, Indiana Jones ends with Last Crusade.  

Don't consume the products you don't like, but don't get mad about it.  Go support someone who does what you like, but just keep in mind that they can reboot or change direction.  

Entertainment properties are like people.  Enjoy the good times you had together, but when they turn toxic, don't keep them around because you used to love them.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1111746No - you should tell people what you want and you should provide the step-by-step.  I've spilled some ink on what Star Wars Episode I, II, and III ought to have been and I'm happy to tell you about it.  But I definitely made the decision that I don't HAVE to see every Star Wars movie that comes out.  I'm disappointed with the sequels (VII, VIII), but probably not for the reasons you are (it has nothing to do with some people thinking Rey is a Mary-Sue) and I'll vote with my wallet.

But I also realize that I'm not owed anything.  It's not a personal betrayal when a company takes their IP and 'canonizes it' in a direction I don't agree with.  They can't MAKE me accept it.  For me, Indiana Jones ends with Last Crusade.  

Don't consume the products you don't like, but don't get mad about it.  Go support someone who does what you like, but just keep in mind that they can reboot or change direction.  

Entertainment properties are like people.  Enjoy the good times you had together, but when they turn toxic, don't keep them around because you used to love them.

Agreed, its the anger I don't get. You don't like something, you don't like but its not some personal attack on you by the company, they're not secretly paying off the people that did like it to act that way just to fuck with you. Tastes vary, don't consume media you don't like, if you have a venue make it clear what you would like. But ranting, even hurling insults and slurs really doesn't help matters any.
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I can understand. I've felt that sense of betrayal in the past. But I realized its getting worked up for nothing and as I've gotten older that its really a waste of time and energy. I didn't like Rogue One and have no interest in Captain Marvel. Many others did, its doesn't threaten my sense of my own tastes and preferences. Entertainment is among the most subjective things out there.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1111746No - you should tell people what you want and you should provide the step-by-step.  I've spilled some ink on what Star Wars Episode I, II, and III ought to have been and I'm happy to tell you about it.  But I definitely made the decision that I don't HAVE to see every Star Wars movie that comes out.  I'm disappointed with the sequels (VII, VIII), but probably not for the reasons you are (it has nothing to do with some people thinking Rey is a Mary-Sue) and I'll vote with my wallet.

But I also realize that I'm not owed anything.  It's not a personal betrayal when a company takes their IP and 'canonizes it' in a direction I don't agree with.  They can't MAKE me accept it.  For me, Indiana Jones ends with Last Crusade.  

Don't consume the products you don't like, but don't get mad about it.  Go support someone who does what you like, but just keep in mind that they can reboot or change direction.  

Entertainment properties are like people.  Enjoy the good times you had together, but when they turn toxic, don't keep them around because you used to love them.

Well, I don't have to tell the producers how to do their job, especially since "I'm not owed anything".

Of course I'm not owed anything, it's just as true as that they aren't entitled to my money or to my silence if their products fail to meet my expectations.

Your error is to think I'm talking as a fan, I'm not, I'm talking as a consumer:

I buy product X, that was advertised as product X, but when I open the package it really is product Y.

Now, I can't go and demand my money back, neither with comics, movies or TV shows can I?

So, I paid for it and got a shit sandwich instead of the chicken sandwich I ordered and that was advertised.

If the advertisement said chicken sandwich, I was right to expect a chicken sandwich and not a shit sandwich.

Therefore my complaint, they advertised a chicken sandwich, I bought it and got a shit sandwich instead. This is called mouth-to-mouth publicity, the cheapest and most effective, but those who want to serve you a shit sandwich while charging you for a chicken one don't like this kind of advertisement.

Why? Because a satisfied client recommends you to 3 people, a dissatisfied one recommends against you to 10 people. This was before social media, now when I complain I have a reach of 1000 times the number of not shared followers my followers have.

I vote with my wallet, but if you sold me a chicken sandwich and served me a shit one I'm going to tell the world. And I'll get mad you did it.

I already dropped all my big 2 comics, and have been telling people to vote with their wallets. But you don't like me telling others what awful it was to order a chicken sandwich and get served a shit one.

Do you get it now? My money my choice, and my right to criticize shit can't be overturned (yet). So, if you don't like my opinions put me on ignore, but you'll never convince me to stop criticizing the shit and those who peddle it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1111753I buy product X, that was advertised as product X, but when I open the package it really is product Y.

So the lesson here might be to beware of ladyboys.