TheRPGSite

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=321767

and here :

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=321768

Regards,
David R

Wow. Colour me suprised.

Huh.  Wow!

Well, I welcome him here.

No surprise at all to me. I told him publicly just yesterday it was time for him to quit. He turned the discussion of his hobby into work for himself - "work" in the "four letter word" sense. He's obviously been burned out on being a mod for quite some time, and carried on out of a sense of duty.

It can only do him good to have a rest from that sort of bullshit, and to just plain talk shit about rpgs. Hell, maybe the poor bugger will even get to play some. A husband and father doing paid work only has so much time for his hobbies; if he's tossed aside the "moderating rpg.net" hobby, maybe he'll have time for his roleplaying hobby. Me, I've no idea why anyone would ever choose the former over the latter. Discussing roleplaying is to support roleplaying, not replace it.

Scary thing is, who'll replace him as senior admin, eh?

Being bannzored, I can't read - I assume he quit? Or at least took a leave of absence?

Only problem is, he was about the only reasonable mod there,  IMO. Well, not a roblem for ME anymore, but you get my drift.

Maybe Kuma will come back :D  He's the one who really instigated most of the modwars anyhow.

Quote from: WerekoalaBeing bannzored, I can't read - I assume he quit? Or at least took a leave of absence?

Just log out, clear cookies, and read while an unregistered user.

Quote from: CessnaAfter much consideration I have come to realize that this place just isn't for me anymore. This isn't due to any single specific incident or occasion; rather, a growing understanding that it is time for me to move on.

As such, I am stepping down as Forum Administrator, effective immediately. I may stop in again at some point to talk about games, but for the most part, I'm gone.

Have fun, folks.

maybe he'll post more here, we could use some new blood around here.

All I know of him from RPG.net and here is that I don't have any problems with him, and that's more than enough for me.  And even if I had problems with him, I'd welcome him anyway. I got no axes to grind about forums. If I ever really had any, I've laid them aside in favor of a much more balanced view towards unreality.

Now this is important rpg.net news.

And I'll usually give Cessna the benefit of the doubt on most things because his enthusiasm introduced me to the lovely world of Tekumel.  That alone puts him in the Thumbs Up section in my book.

He should come here. Everyone else has.

Regards,
David R

Anyone who would describe himself as a commissar and advocates a POV that goes "just don't read it just doesn't cut it" can go to hell AFAIC.

Quote from: David JohansenMaybe Kuma will come back :D  

Some words should not be spoken even in jest. :D

Quote from: David RHe should come here. Everyone else has.

Regards,
David R

He's been here for a while, David. He may not be back, but he knows the neighborhood.

-clash

Quote from: Dominus NoxAnyone who would describe himself as a commissar and advocates a POV that goes "just don't read it just doesn't cut it" can go to hell AFAIC.

Would you please just let this go.  RPG.net doesn't love you anymore, you can shut up about it now.


TGA

Quote from: flyingmiceHe's been here for a while, David. He may not be back, but he knows the neighborhood.

-clash

True. I forgot this place is like a hotel I've heard about in California. You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave....wait, am I thinking about tBP  :haw:

Quote from: David RTrue. I forgot this place is like a hotel I've heard about in California. You can check out anytime you like but you can never leave....wait, am I thinking about tBP  :haw:

Where's my pink champagne on ice, dammit.  :confused:


TGA

Back in my days in the children's mental institution we sang it as "paint that is peeling, hairbrushes with lice" instead. Kept the "prisoners of our own device" bit though, because we were wise beyond our years.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianWhere's my pink champagne on ice, dammit.  :confused:


TGA

Uh, I'm totally stabbing it with my steely knives, 'cause life's been good to me so far at the sad cafe.

Hi there, how are ya? It's been a long time...seems like we've come a long way.  My, but we learn so slow, and heroes, they come and they go...and leave us behind as if we're supposed to know why.

Yeah, I spent a lot of time enjoying The Eagles.

Quote from: JimBobOzScary thing is, who'll replace him as senior admin, eh?

Some fresh hell, no doubt.

Seanchai

I've got a shiney new nickle that says it's Darren.

Quote from: David JohansenI've got a shiney new nickle that says it's Darren.

Fuckstick.

Seriously, Cessna was one of the good ones.  One of the few good ones.  If Darren's all that's left...  well, bloody fucking hell won't that be just wonderful?

I'm glad Cessna's taking time out to do what he gotta do but damn.

Well...Blackberry could come back as a mod and give furries the type of protection Kuma gave to pagans.

We could exchange porn mondays for skitch mondays and everything!

Actually Blackberry was a pretty decent mod IMO.

Blackberry was too emotionally invested to be a Mod.

He should start more War 40K threads here now that he's got the free time. We need more 40K threads.

Quote from: David JohansenI've got a shiney new nickle that says it's Darren.

God I hope not.

They'll probably ask Eric back. Two minutes after 'quitting Modship for evar, no really this time, look you can even put me on your ignore list' he was in TT vigorously defending a questionable mod call.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Well, I welcome him here.

Me, too.

Quote from: RedFoxBlackberry was too emotionally invested to be a Mod.

Agreed (in fact, that was part of what lead to his removal as a mod). I think that the same was true of Topher, as well. Personally, I think that the most even-handed mods have been those that were installed in said position for the shortest amounts of time (e.g., Levi) or those who work in a part-time capacity (e.g., Stephen LS). Most of the 'long timers' seemed/seem very poorly suited to the job, insofar as being even-tempered human beings.

Quote from: David JohansenMaybe Kuma will come back

This is very unlikely, as I understand it.

Quote from: jdrakehMe, too.

Thirded.  I can understand if he doesn't want to too, though.

Quote from: RezendevousThirded.  I can understand if he doesn't want to too, though.

Totally. I imagine being welcomed here by people that you identify as potential antagonists from another site is a bit is a suspect ;)

Quote from: RezendevousThirded.  I can understand if he doesn't want to too, though.

Color me fourthed!  I think he'd be cool, here, and I don't think he'd catch a lot of flak.  All of our talking about RPG.net, which he said he needed to escape, probably won't help him though.

Okay.  I'm just baffled.  People keep saying that they'd welcome Cessna if he came around these parts, but...he's already been here for months now.

!i!

[Edit: Although a quick search on his name returns a report that "Cessna" is an invalid name.  Hunh.  Was I just imagining all this?]

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOkay.  I'm just baffled.  People keep saying that they'd welcome Cessna if he came around these parts, but...he's already been here for months now.

!i!

[Edit: Although a quick search on his name returns a report that "Cessna" is an invalid name.  Hunh.  Was I just imagining all this?]

I just repeated the search, and it worked fine for me.  If the problem persists, let me know exactly what options you were using.

Working fine now.  I had used the Advanced Search -> Search by User Name -> Find Posts by User -> Exact Name options.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOkay.  I'm just baffled.  People keep saying that they'd welcome Cessna if he came around these parts, but...he's already been here for months now.

!i!

[Edit: Although a quick search on his name returns a report that "Cessna" is an invalid name.  Hunh.  Was I just imagining all this?]

No, he hasn't been here.  He was here once...there's a difference.  I will welcome him back, if that's any consolation to your point.

Cessna is already here, and welcome to be here. He was here just a little while ago, admitting that the direction RPG.net went in its moderation policy was wrong, which is what I've been saying for years now.

RPGPundit

Quote from: joewolzNo, he hasn't been here.  He was here once...there's a difference.  I will welcome him back, if that's any consolation to your point.

I chatted with him about Exalted a bit ago.

Quote from: RPGPunditCessna is already here, and welcome to be here. He was here just a little while ago, admitting that the direction RPG.net went in its moderation policy was wrong, which is what I've been saying for years now.

RPGPundit

"Admitting?"

Come on, Pundit.  I gave you some advice.  I certainly don't agree with you on all counts.  Do we disagree about how the place is run?  Sure.  And you have your own site, and can run it as you like.

Mistakes?  I did the job for rpg.net for five years.  If you can run this place for five years without making a mistake in the eyes of the dozens of hyper-focused rules-lawyers who enjoy picking over every decision made regarding running a game site, well, you let me know.

But folks can continue to dismiss rpg.net as "irrelevant" and "fascist" all they like, but the fact is that people like the place.  When the board crashed a few weeks ago it still had over twelve times the traffic of this place - while it was down.  Folks like the system in place there.

If I made a mistake, it was volunteering as many hours as I did.  Wasting that much time on a message board about make-believe games is just silly.

Quote from: Cessna"Admitting?"

Come on, Pundit.  I gave you some advice.  I certainly don't agree with you on all counts.  Do we disagree about how the place is run?  Sure.  And you have your own site, and can run it as you like.

Mistakes?  I did the job for rpg.net for five years.  If you can run this place for five years without making a mistake in the eyes of the dozens of hyper-focused rules-lawyers who enjoy picking over every decision made regarding running a game site, well, you let me know.

But folks can continue to dismiss rpg.net as "irrelevant" and "fascist" all they like, but the fact is that people like the place.  When the board crashed a few weeks ago it still had over twelve times the traffic of this place - while it was down.  Folks like the system in place there.

If I made a mistake, it was volunteering as many hours as I did.  Wasting that much time on a message board about make-believe games is just silly.

Cessna, I doubt many people here took that admitting at face value, I wouldn't worry too much.

I don't ask Nox for advice on race relations and I don't ask Pundit for advice on rpg.net, you know?

QuoteFolks like the system in place there.

Which scares me every day. As I said back then, it´s the shamuses I hate the most. Without "reported posts" there needed to be no bans.

I despise people who run to someone else for protection on a fucking RPG messageboard.
Despise!

Quote from: BalbinusCessna, I doubt many people here took that admitting at face value, I wouldn't worry too much.

I don't ask Nox for advice on race relations and I don't ask Pundit for advice on rpg.net, you know?

Yeah, Balbinus posted what I was thinking.

Don't let Pundit's comments get to ya.  Folk who know what's what aren't paying attention to them, and those folk that do pay attention aren't going to be influenced otherwise here.

Cessna seems to be a good sort, and I hope he'll find the time to perhaps post here a bit more, if he feels like it. It's easy to lose yourself online--being to moderating or posting a message board, MMORPGs, a social networking site, whatever. Here's hoping this move sends you in whatever direction it is you want to go, Cess. :cheers:

Quote from: SettembriniWhich scares me every day. As I said back then, it´s the shamuses I hate the most. Without "reported posts" there needed to be no bans.

I despise people who run to someone else for protection on a fucking RPG messageboard.
Despise!

You really need some prespective.

Go outside.  See the sun.  Kiss a girl.

QuoteGo outside.  See the sun.  Kiss a girl.

:rolleyes:

Well, that shall be all I say to the personal attack.
:rolleyes:


Perspective...
Well, haven´t been many a people been outcast from their chosen community because of report button pushers?

That´s why I despise them.

And start to think what they´d do, if something real happened (too loud, wrong car, wrong colour of skin), and there would be an authority you could send that "banned" the alleged "mischief".

Despise!
Shamus & Blockwart, I say.

EDIT: I´m not inclined to discuss this further, so we´ll see in some cool gaming thread.

Well, you're required to say that, aren't you Cessna? Its something to do with all that modclique programming you've got in you, much of which no doubt you yourself helped develop.

I mean shit, look at Levi; he was a mod way less time than you, and I had to catch him seriously drunk in order to get him to admit that RPG.net is fucked up because of the moderation policy, and that people like Darren shouldn't be mods of anything.

But you already slipped somewhat, didn't you? You pointed out your concern about the direction this site could go in, and how it would lead to being the way RPG.net is now.  That's out there, so yes, you've admitted it.

But hey, don't worry. Loosen up. Now you can be honest, why are you concerned? Do you think that RPG.net is some idol you must continue to worship at, or some delicate flower you must protect? You're scared that the other pretentious gits from the modclique are going to be mad at you, or feel betrayed, because you finally start being honest again? Fuck that.  Be honest. There's nothing to fear.

RPGPundit

You know what?

This is utterly, utterly futile.  All of this hand-wringing and posturing and silliness over internet message boards about games.  

I quit.

Have fun, folks.

Sorry to see you go, mate. Have a good one.

And the Puntwit wins again.

Well done, Pundy, have a fucking cookie.

The internet is a pretty horrid place to try and look into the heart of a man.  Perhaps next time taking somebody at their word would be the way to go.

Quote from: James McMurrayAnd the Puntwit wins again.

No. It was never a contest. It was pretty much inevitable.

Seanchai

You know there are times I wonder why this site has the rep it does.

This isn't one of them.

Quote from: StumpydaveYou know there are times I wonder why this site has the rep it does.

This isn't one of them.

I wish that I could disagree.  I can't. :mad:


TGA

You know what Cessna has gained that Pundit and Settembrini haven't? A fucking grip.

Twats.

- Q

New record for Pundy, running someone off in just over one hour form the begining of the chat.:D

Lovely. Now I'll NEVER get that Combat Missions PBEM game started.

Sorry to see you go, Cessna.

Wow.

You really butchered that one, chief. Nicely done. Push that ancient fucking grudge a little harder next time.

Quote from: SeanchaiNo. It was never a contest. It was pretty much inevitable.

Seanchai

What was inevitable? That Pundit would lash out at Cessna andhe'd decide he didn't want to put up with it?

I don't see how anyone got run off. If Cessna wants to leave, he leaves. If he wants to come back, he comes back.

Nobody controls anyone. We are all in charge of our own destinies. Quit pointing fingers.

All I have to say is this stupid-ass vendetta is getting real old.

Why must Pundy continue to rail against the big purple?:confused:

It's getting to the point where he is getting delusional and paranoid, no joke.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI don't see how anyone got run off. If Cessna wants to leave, he leaves. If he wants to come back, he comes back.

Nobody controls anyone. We are all in charge of our own destinies. Quit pointing fingers.

I've been trying to write something better, but you seem like a somewhat intelligent sort, Maw. I'm sure you realize why you're just pumping out bullshit here, so I can only assume it serves a purpose for you. And so, in conclusion...

Get off his dick, man. That was a shitty decision.

can somebody pass the popcorn?  this show's kind of fun, even though you know how it goes. . .

this exchange could be a big point in killing OT

Quote from: James McMurrayWhat was inevitable? That Pundit would lash out at Cessna andhe'd decide he didn't want to put up with it?

Pundit "lashing out" at Cessna was far, far from surprising. Cessna and Pundit have history. Cessna and a few posters here have history. The moderators as a collective and a few posters here have history.

Also, Cessna's going from protected status to just another poster. While you can disagree (politely) with moderators on TBP, they're not just another board member. That's not the case here. Cessna no more or less protected than anyone.

Moreover, there's the role reversal. It used to be that Cessna was the authority and Pundit the regular joe. Now Pundit's the authority.

Personality-wise, Cessna never struck me as...easy-going. Not that there's anything wrong with that. (Clearly, I'm not either.)

Finally, I have a suspicion that Cessna is not so much interested in games and gaming. We invited him to play with us three times—once before he was a moderator, once when he was a moderator and once after I was banned. All three times, talks progressed to a certain point, then he begged off. That, too, is just fine—but without a solid interest to sustain a person, I'm not sure they'd stick around with this board's off topic fare.

Seanchai

I'm not exactly sure why Pundit's neccesarily in the wrong here. I mean, look what Cessna wrote in one of the many threads about how to handle the Obnoxious Asshole Fucktard (OAF):

Quote from: CessnaThis all sounds familiar.

In fact, this is EXACTLY how rpg.net moderation started in 2001/2002. EXACTLY. I can dig up the threads and link to them if you like.

Be careful here. If you aren't, six years from now you'll find yourself being called "fascist" by a group of disaffected users for trying to keep a message board from being turned into a craphole, so that other people have a nice place to talk about games – only to end up with a place so bland and inane you yourself hate it.

Now I’m not a partisan in this particular fight.  As far as I can recall, I’ve never posted over a tBP; I know I’ve never been “modded.” So I don’t know Cessna from Adam. But that sounds an awful lot like he’s saying if Pundit takes a specific action against the OAF – in this case a topic ban or some such – he’s heading in the same direction as tBP; even offers to provide the links to similar discussions.

Now, on the one hand, he pushes off some of the “blame” for how that ended up on the people like Pundy who scream “FASCISM!!!” when modded on a forum about RPGs. But look at my bolded emphasis. Hate yourself for it? I could see how that could be seen as Cessna believing that something went wrong.

Was he admitting to Pundit being right in any way?  I highly doubt it. I, too, lifted an eyebrow at that assertion by Pundy.  But I write that off the same way I write of JimBob’s high horse or my own knee-jerk reactions. It’s certainly not out of the realm, however, to suggest that Cessna is regretting choices made that allowed the Pleasantville many claim tBP to be, but resulted in boring, inane discussions.

And Pundy, perhaps the reason Cessna doesn’t want to admit to admitting anything, or Levi had to get drunk, was because they know what a fucktard you would be in response to that. I know you’ve been waiting so long to somehow prove that your banning was the single most unjust act ever perpetrated on a human being via the Internet, but you could have been a much better about it.  Don’t get all stupid; you could have just linked to the response I showed above and let people make their own decision.

They are both wrong if you ask me.  Cessna could have just as easily “admitted” explicitly to what he seemed to be implying – or at least clarified what he meant. Pundit certainly could have been more gracious in his reaction and just let the fact the Cessna was here and not there speak for itself.

So as much as Pundy was an asshole, there’s plenty of blame to go around.

Yes you can say Cessna sent some mixed messages and you can come to the very same conclusion that Pundit did.  But just yesterday on Pundit's own blog here:

http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/584837013/item.html

He writes:

QuoteIts nice to see Cessna at theRPGsite, and I hope he continues to be there. I hope other people stop razzing him there.

QuoteSo put aside the old grudges, dudes. I for one welcome it. Any ill-will I had vanished the moment he quit, I could only wish he'd done so more forcefully, but I guess they train those RPG.net modclique types very well, look at Levi.  It took a serious amount of liquor to get him to admit the reasons he quit.  So I'm content enough to let him become just another poster on theRPGsite, enjoying his liberty and newfound freedom.

Then goes on to continue to razz Cessna, after Cessna clarifies his own position, is poorly done.

read his blog?  for god's sake I get enough of him here :D

I find Pundit, to be a pretty sharp guy and agree with him more times than not when it comes to gaming.  And I don't want to rag on the guy because in the grand scheme of things, this matters very little.  BUT, and maybe I'm taking the news of Moldvay's passing a bit too personal (I've been in a soulsearching mood as of late), this could have been avoided and by Pundit's own words COULD have been avoided had he taken his own advice.  

Just to put my agenda cards on the table:  I'm here because I enjoy the site.  I nag because I care about the site.  I think we have the potential to have a special little corner in the RPG websphere.  Cessna would be a terrific poster here and its too bad that he's decided to leave.

So that's what it looks like when Pundit sets aside his grudges, welcomes you, and his ill will vanishes. :rolleyes:

Pundit, you're a dick.  A dribbling little dick.

!i!

I have to admit, I don't really understand some of the undying grudges against TBP.  This isn't a free speech crusade.  A private business can tell you to shut the hell up pretty much anytime it chooses.  Try staging a Vegan protest in McDonalds and see how long you remain on the premises.  TBP and this site are private boards following separate business models.  TBP caters to people who want to feel "safe" to post without getting harrassed.  People who like that kind of board hang out there and those that don't hang out here.  Some like me can go either place and not care (although I prefer it here).

I agree that many of the bans they have issued are stupid but that is their choice.  If you don't like that approach, go to the competition (here for instance).
 
It isn't a war and the fact Cessna got tired of having to herd cats over there and wanted a break to just kick back and talk RPG's is understandable. It is a shame that old feuds may keep him from contributing without getting hammered.  Holding a grudge against an internet message board is the very definition of pointless.

:oops:

Quote from: GrimjackI have to admit, I don't really understand some of the undying grudges against TBP.  This isn't a free speech crusade.  A private business can tell you to shut the hell up pretty much anytime it chooses

Well, you gotta remember RPGnet started off with a tone very much like the rpgsite has now, and precisely who decided to change this isn't obvious.

It certainly looks like some self appointed local politicians decided to hijack peoples site to turn it in to something it wasn't. Possibly surprisingly, this wasn't universally appreciated.

Quote from: RPGPunditBut you already slipped somewhat, didn't you? You pointed out your concern about the direction this site could go in, and how it would lead to being the way RPG.net is now.  That's out there, so yes, you've admitted it.

It wasn't an "admission of failure", you silly sod. It was simply saying, "you don't like how rpg.net turned out, well - it started just like this. So if you don't like how rpg.net turned out, be careful how you make this decision." Cessna wasn't "admitting failure", he was just pointing out that there's a series of roads in the country of a forum, and that rpg.net had gone along a particular road after choosing a certain turnoff - and we were at that same intersection. To say, "that's the road we chose that got us where we are" is not to say, "where we are is bad."

Cessna wasn't saying the way they chose was wrong, just that there are a number of ways you can go. He wasn't "admitting failure", he was trying to show us the road map. It's like saying, "well if you have four out of six chapters in an rpg about combat, probably in a game session you'll get a lot of combat" - that's different to, "lots of combat in rpgs is wrong." Cessna was just pointing out that decisions have consequences, and lead certain ways. He wasn't saying the way things turned out were bad.

The guy was obviously burned out on moderating rpg.net a year or two back. I for one told him to quit then - but it's obvious he kept on from a sense of obligation. When you do something you're not enjoying out of a sense of obligation, you come to be bitter about it. One day you just quit. That day, for Cessna, was just the other day. We're seeing him at a low point. You're deliberately misunderstanding what he said, twisting it so that you can say, "I R TEH WINNAH!!!111!"

Don't be a cocksmock, RPGPundit.

Quote from: SeanchaiPundit "lashing out" at Cessna was far, far from surprising. Cessna and Pundit have history. Cessna and a few posters here have history.

Bollocks. Nothing's inevitable. "History"? Cessna banned me from rpg.net, and he was wrong to do so. But he's a person - not just some internet name - and he and his efforts at rpg.net are well worthy of respect. As an rpg.net mod and admin, he has made wrong decisions - but he is a reasonable and sensible person, and the poor guy quite obviously had only time for one hobby, moderating rpg.net or roleplaying - foolishly, out of a sense of obligation, he chose the moderating - another wrong decision, but a human one.

We're all in control of what we post, and Cessna deserves some respect, and a proper reading of what he writes, like any other poster. He also needs some consideration as a gamer - it's time to welcome the poor fucker back into the gaming fold, away from that nonsense of moderating forums. This place should be a place where you can come to get the information and inspiration you need to game.

Quote from: CessnaFolks like the system in place there.

People do business in China because that's where the opportunities are, but they don't have to like living there. Rhetoric, I know, but it's another way to look at things.

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, you're required to say that, aren't you Cessna? Its something to do with all that modclique programming you've got in you, much of which no doubt you yourself helped develop.

I mean shit, look at Levi; he was a mod way less time than you, and I had to catch him seriously drunk in order to get him to admit that RPG.net is fucked up because of the moderation policy, and that people like Darren shouldn't be mods of anything.

But you already slipped somewhat, didn't you? You pointed out your concern about the direction this site could go in, and how it would lead to being the way RPG.net is now.  That's out there, so yes, you've admitted it.

But hey, don't worry. Loosen up. Now you can be honest, why are you concerned? Do you think that RPG.net is some idol you must continue to worship at, or some delicate flower you must protect? You're scared that the other pretentious gits from the modclique are going to be mad at you, or feel betrayed, because you finally start being honest again? Fuck that.  Be honest. There's nothing to fear.

RPGPundit

You do understand that you chased off a gamer who came here to talk about games, right? Congratulations. /sarcasm

Okay all of this is getting really creepy. tBP hate was kinda of funny, but after this and Pundit's really, really weird -it reeks of something, I'm not quite sure of what - blog post about his encounter with Levi, this shit ain't bringing in the laughs anymore.

One the great things...check that, the best thing about this site, is that folks who come here come because of the "game" talk. They don't come here as a political act. I know some folks really want to believe that this is a haven for free speech and all, and yes most folks here like the fact that this board is not moderated, but this has more to do with the lack of moderation on the "games" forum.

Cessna made some bad decisions. He made some good ones. The trouble is most folks can't seem to agree which ones fall where. But so what. This was supposed to be the site where all are welcomed. Not where those of power or influence from tBP would be hassled if they ever decided to post here.

Honestly, I'd love to read what an uncensored SteveD would post. I really think that Cessna would have made a good contributer to the Help section of this forum.

Cessna, you made the right decision. I hope you change your mind, but honestly if you're going to have to put up with some folks distorting what you say and fuckers who keep trying to settle old scores, you're better off some place else.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: JimBobOzBollocks. Nothing's inevitable.

Shrug. I disagree. And not because of this site or Pundit, per se.

Quote from: JimBobOzBut he's a person - not just some internet name - and he and his efforts at rpg.net are well worthy of respect.

Personally, I'd be happy to show him all the respect he showed me. I'm a person, too, not just an Internet name, and I, too, deserve consideration as a gamer.

So unless you believe that the respect you're talking about is a one-way street and those that Cessna belittled and mocked while protected by his status as a moderator should now suddenly defer to him, he's got all respect he's earned...

Quote from: JimBobOzAs an rpg.net mod and admin, he has made wrong decisions - but he is a reasonable and sensible person...

That's not been my experience with him. Or, not since he became a moderator. I saw a hot-head who bought into his role as an authority figure to the degree where he felt could pass out special punishments a la Solomon.

Seanchai

Quote from: David ROne the great things...check that, the best thing about this site, is that folks who come here come because of the "game" talk. They don't come here as a political act.

That was the thing that struck me about the "why did you join therpgsite?" thread. I was the only one who just said, "I came to talk about roleplaying." Everyone else's reply was "to be able to call people on their bullshit!" or "dedication to brutal intellectual honesty" and stuff like that. For many, it seems to be - as you say - some kind of political act.

I'm here on therpgsite for the same reason I was on rpg.net, or sjgames forum, or Masters of Luck and Death (HeroQuest) or a host of others - I like to talk about roleplaying.

I like to talk about other things, too, of course - but there are other forums for those.

Quote from: SeanchaiPersonally, I'd be happy to show him all the respect he showed me. I'm a person, too, not just an Internet name, and I, too, deserve consideration as a gamer.

Then post as a gamer. Anyway, you get consideration, as much as anyone else.

Quote from: SeanchaiSo unless you believe that the respect you're talking about is a one-way street and those that Cessna belittled and mocked while protected by his status as a moderator should now suddenly defer to him, he's got all respect he's earned...

He belittled and mocked you because you deserved it. All those unregistered posts in Trouble Tickets? Mate, let it go. I got banned for no real reason from rpg.net - do you see me going back as posting with sock puppets, constantly attacking them? No. I get over it, move on, post elsewhere. This was years ago for you. Build a bridge and get over it, for fuck's sakes.

rpg.net, therpgsite, sjgames, whatever - it's just a message board where a bunch of geeks talk about how their way of pretending to be elven princesses is so much better than everyone else's. Don't take yourself too seriously. Taking yourself seriously leads to all sorts of trouble. The Germans and Americans take themselves extremely seriously, and are constantly getting into pointless wars. It's bad for your heart. Get the fuck over it. Resign yourself to the fact that you are not important to anyone online, except by virtue of your posts being informative, interesting or amusing. Aside from that, no-one cares if you live, die, are straight, gay, eat puppies, or anything.

Resign yourself to your utter triviality and irrelevance, and the things that happen on message boards make a lot more sense.

Quote from: David RCessna, you made the right decision. I hope you change your mind, but honestly if you're going to have to put up with some folks distorting what you say and fuckers who keep trying to settle old scores, you're better off some place else.

Regards,
David R

Sadly, I think that you may be right on this one.  That really pisses me off.  I liked talking with Cessna.  He had some interesting things to say.  But it seems that several people here can't seem to be civil and keep their hate-on for RPG.net in their pants.  

Pundit, you came out looking like a total jackass on this one.  Well done.  :rolleyes:

Quote from: JimBobOzThat was the thing that struck me about the "why did you join therpgsite?" thread. I was the only one who just said, "I came to talk about roleplaying." Everyone else's reply was "to be able to call people on their bullshit!" or "dedication to brutal intellectual honesty" and stuff like that. For many, it seems to be - as you say - some kind of political act.

I'm here on therpgsite for the same reason I was on rpg.net, or sjgames forum, or Masters of Luck and Death (HeroQuest) or a host of others - I like to talk about roleplaying.

I like to talk about other things, too, of course - but there are other forums for those.

Dude, I've been trying to steer clear of this debate for a day or two now, but that is some sanctimonious bullshit right there, JB.  Listen, I know we all like to write ourselves in as the hero of our own little tales, but this takes the cake.  I don't mind having the debate, but for the love of God your shit doesn't smell like flowers.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianListen, I know we all like to write ourselves in as the hero of our own little tales, but this takes the cake.  I don't mind having the debate, but for the love of God your shit doesn't smell like flowers.

I do not think my shit smells like flowers. However, properly composted, it can act as an excellent fertiliser for flowers. That is, even bad ideas, given time to break down naturally, can help good ideas grow. So even the stupid things I or others say have some worth.

You also ignored my point, preferring to abuse me. Abuse me as much as you like, but please actually respond  - isn't it true that for some people here, we're just talking roleplaying, and for others, it's a political act, "freeeeedom!" and all that? And isn't it true that expressing freely your political ideals on an internet message board about roleplaying is about the most lame, pointless and ineffectual means of political expression imaginable?

:cheerleader:    

A few dogpiles going on here recently. Pretty reminiscent of another place when you think about it.

There's no point in expressing surprise when an excitable dog bites. Nor much use in expressing surprise when a dog handler who has whacked said dog on the nose doesn't like it when the dog bites him.

I don't play many different RPG systems, perhaps half a dozen and recent freelancing for a couple of those has pretty much stopped me posting much about them for some wierd fear about shilling or some such. Otherwise i'd post more both here and on RPGnet about RPGs in general. But it seems to me that when people start running out of things to say about games, they pass the time by chewing the cud on any old subject and by having the odd dogpile. YMMV and all that. :)

Go ahead and shill, mate. I mean, if Gary Gygax wandered in and started talking about having some new edition of D&D, he'd be shilling, but that wouldn't stop everyone drooling all over him. You can shill, and still have an interesting, informative and amusing discussion.

Shill away!

Quote from: JimBobOzYou also ignored my point, preferring to abuse me. Abuse me as much as you like, but please actually respond  - isn't it true that for some people here, we're just talking roleplaying, and for others, it's a political act, "freeeeedom!" and all that? And isn't it true that expressing freely your political ideals on an internet message board about roleplaying is about the most lame, pointless and ineffectual means of political expression imaginable?

I normally try to be constructive.  Your post really annoyed me.  You seem to be protesting that you are only here to talk RPGs, yet you are the one leading the charge to ban a guy for what he is saying in the non-RPG related forum.  I think that there is a disconnect.

On a practical note, I am interested in the idea of free expression as a tool for creating good discussion.  I feel that setting different standards for different parts of the site is an invitation to trouble, as the Internet lawyers amongst us will undoubtedly begin to take advantage of that and these arguments will never stop.  Ultimately it is the call of the administration of this site, but if they want to avoid the long slide into moderation that Tangency brought upon RPG.net, I would recommend against different rules for different parts of the site.  And since I truly believe that as little moderation of opinions about RPGs will produce better discussions about them...

You see, I *am* interested in talking about RPGs.  Just like you.  ;)


TGA

Quote from: JimBobOzHe belittled and mocked you because you deserved it.

And he deserves what he gets.

But that doesn't address my point of why people who got no respect from him should turn around give it him. Just because he's no longer a moderator? Or because he's posting here? Really?

Quote from: JimBobOzAll those unregistered posts in Trouble Tickets?

Are you referring to something that happened after I was banned? You're not suggesting I was banned because of something I hadn't done, are you? (Not that it would be out of character for the moderation at TBP.)

Quote from: JimBobOzI got banned for no real reason from rpg.net

Yeah, just like all of us. No, really.

Quote from: JimBobOzdo you see me going back as posting with sock puppets, constantly attacking them?

I haven't done any of those things either.

Quote from: JimBobOzI get over it, move on, post elsewhere.

No, you didn't. You bring up how you got banned constantly.

Seanchai

Without some amount of shilling, those of us that ignore ads won't know what's going on in the game world.

Quote from: TGASadly, I think that you may be right on this one. That really pisses me off. I liked talking with Cessna. He had some interesting things to say. But it seems that several people here can't seem to be civil and keep their hate-on for RPG.net in their pants.

Don't think that just because I agree with you on this that I've forgotten your bagel atrocities. Forgiveness may come one day, but never forgetfulness.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianI normally try to be constructive.  Your post really annoyed me.  You seem to be protesting that you are only here to talk RPGs, yet you are the one leading the charge to ban a guy for what he is saying in the non-RPG related forum.  I think that there is a disconnect.

Okay folks, please don't die of shock, but I think the Pundit should make JimBob a mod. I mean someone needs to stir shit occasionally, bring things up that we may have missed. I think he's the perfect candidate*.

*He's pissed off most folks on this site, even those who agree with him - yeah JimBob I haven't forgotten the "Dear Poster X, I don't mean to offend you but I think...Love JimBob" post you made in reference to my posting style in one of this sites earlier threads .

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, you gotta remember RPGnet started off with a tone very much like the rpgsite has now, and precisely who decided to change this isn't obvious.

It certainly looks like some self appointed local politicians decided to hijack peoples site to turn it in to something it wasn't. Possibly surprisingly, this wasn't universally appreciated.

Interesting.  I haven't lurked there long enough to have seen that and it is hard to imagine given the way RPGnet is now (not that I don't believe you).  

The reason I'm less concerned that the same would happen here is because the people who like that kind of tame politically correct board are already on RPGnet.  RPGsite caters to a different crowd that strongly dislikes over-moderation so I think history would have a hard time repeating itself.

I blame the posters over there more than the mods.  They are the ones that made the choice to complain about every little offense to their sensibilities.  Right or wrong the mods just went with what the people there wanted.  May have been a bad choice but I don't see holding a grudge about it.

Maybe I missed something—I am new here—but I thought the state of moderation here was that you could expect to hear things and opinions you didn't like, and that you were expected to be a Big Boy about such statements. No one, no one's ideas, no one's statements, et al., are protected or given more weight than they earn.

For example, in this very thread, the owner/operator of the board has been told to "have a fucking cookie," to "get off his dick, man," and called an "asshole," "a dribbling little dick," and a "cocksmock."

In line with the above, Pundit said some things. Cessna said some things. Cessna decided to leave. Why is Cessna and Cessna's participation suddenly more important than everyone else's? Why is it more important than the letter and spirit of the law here?

If you don't like the fact that Cessna is any more protected than all the other posters, do what he did and leave.

Seanchai

Quote from: GrimjackI blame the posters over there more than the mods.  They are the ones that made the choice to complain about every little offense to their sensibilities.

Except if every little offense weren't against the rules, there'd be nothing to complain about.

Seanchai

Quote from: David ROkay folks, please don't die of shock, but I think the Pundit should make JimBob a mod. I mean someone needs to stir shit occasionally, bring things up that we may have missed. I think he's the perfect candidate*.

*He's pissed off most folks on this site, even those who agree with him - yeah JimBob I haven't forgotten the "Dear Poster X, I don't mean to offend you but I think...Love JimBob" post you made in reference to my posting style in one of this sites earlier threads .

Regards,
David R

Make the guy that thinks Free Speech is only useful itf you're talking about the things you want to hear an rpgsite mod? It's so paradoxical it just might work. NOT!

Quote from: SeanchaiMaybe I missed something—I am new here—but I thought the state of moderation here was that you could expect to hear things and opinions you didn't like, and that you were expected to be a Big Boy about such statements. No one, no one's ideas, no one's statements, et al., are protected or given more weight than they earn.

For example, in this very thread, the owner/operator of the board has been told to "have a fucking cookie," to "get off his dick, man," and called an "asshole," "a dribbling little dick," and a "cocksmock."

In line with the above, Pundit said some things. Cessna said some things. Cessna decided to leave. Why is Cessna and Cessna's participation suddenly more important than everyone else's? Why is it more important than the letter and spirit of the law here?

If you don't like the fact that Cessna is any more protected than all the other posters, do what he did and leave.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but we're living up to the fullest expectations of this site's philosophies when we tell Pundit (who acted like a cocksmock) that he was acting like a cocksmock. The spirit and the letter of the law here demand that we do so. That you don't like the guy doesn't change the fact that Pundit was a putz and got called on it. If you don't like it, you too know where the door is.

Quote from: SeanchaiIf you don't like the fact that Cessna is any more protected than all the other posters, do what he did and leave.Seanchai

I can't disagree with your analysis but I think the difference is the impression that Cessna was being targeted not for anything he said but just so Pundit and Sett could score a rhetorical point by saying that Cessna has finally seen the light about RPGnet.  No one is saying that Cessna should be protected or have special status but running off experienced gamers who could contribute to the board over something like that doesn't help the rep of the site or recruit others to contribute.

Part of what brought me here was that some posters defended RPGsite in a thread on TBP despite going against a majority who were trashing Pundit, other posters, and the board.  Cessna himself contributed to that thread and admitted he posted here for good no-rules game discussions.  That thread made me curious enough to lurk and then join RPGsite.  If the goal is to get more posters, unleashing the attack dogs like this counterproductive.

I, for one, really hope Cessna was just bowing out of the thread. Mostly because every new poster is cool with me until they sound like Nox on a good day. If they sound like nox on a bad day... well that can be pretty funny in ways that ain't exactly politically correct... like laughing at some poor bastard born with no legs, or something.

What the fuck was I saying? Oh, yeah. First it's chickenshit to jump off the site the moment some asshole starts saying you meant something you didn't. hell, I'm sure you can do that at tBP, moderation and all.  

So, in order: Cessna stays on site- good

Pundit acts like an asshole- agreed and bad

tBP love/hate- Stopped caring about six months ago, but it occasionally makes for a 'larf' or whatever.

my reason for posting on this thread - I'm an attention whore, I am THE internet attention whore, I even have a certificate and everything.  That's all, nothing else. Carry one with your bland and meaningless little lives until the next time I have to take a mental dump.

will lightning come out of that dump?

Quote from: GrimjackI can't disagree with your analysis but I think the difference is the impression that Cessna was being targeted not for anything he said but just so Pundit and Sett could score a rhetorical point by saying that Cessna has finally seen the light about RPGnet.

So people are protected from being targeted unfairly? Who gets to determine what's unfair? Wouldn't that be the owner/operator?

Quote from: GrimjackNo one is saying that Cessna should be protected or have special status but running off experienced gamers who could contribute to the board over something like that doesn't help the rep of the site or recruit others to contribute.

But that was the case yesterday. And the day before. And last month. And the month before. Why is this is a problem today? I mean, a free for all is bound to turn off some people. (And attract others.)

Quote from: GrimjackIf the goal is to get more posters, unleashing the attack dogs like this counterproductive.

I don't know that it is the goal.

Seanchai

Seanchai is asking the very question that struck me. I get the sense that this is some strange attraction to Cessna.

He got treated like everyone else who disagrees with Pundit - ridiculed, often without cause, and shat upon. So he huffs off - his right, no doubt. But why all the fuss?

Oh yeah, because some of you think he's very interesting. He might be.  He might be the most brilliant fucking poster in the history of Internet forums on RPG's.  But if he's unable to handle the shit most of the rest of us have to put up with, we're suppose to..what...walk on eggshells around him? He's useless if he can't take the sometimes harsh and often unsubstantiated attacks that take place here.

If that's the case, who gets to decide who's on the "Treat with Kid Gloves" list? What about us regular joes just trying to get along?

And as for the "why TheRPGSite" thread.  Did it ever occur to you that the "I want to talk about RPG's" and "I want to get away from Forgery" are not mutually exclusive things? For me, it seemed the only way to talk about RPG's was to find a place not dominated by a single theory or full of cliques.  That might not be requirement for someone with such refined, sensible, rational thoughts as JimBob, but some of us without that kind of social perfection and intellectual prowess...

Quote from: James J Skachbut some of us without that kind of social perfection and intellectual prowess...

Why did you have to make this about me?

Hey, guys -- look at what I found (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2)!

Quote from: GunslingerWhy did you have to make this about me?

I'm so stooopid I don't even knoe who I is ensultin'

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Hey, guys -- look at what I found (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2)!

Hey!  I threatened to kidnap you in a thread in that very forum...so back off 80's boy...:p

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Hey, guys -- look at what I found (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2)!

I love you, Doc!

Sincerely,

clash

Quote from: James McMurrayMake the guy that thinks Free Speech is only useful itf you're talking about the things you want to hear an rpgsite mod? It's so paradoxical it just might work. NOT!

James, as we are repeatedly told, mods here don't have any power to ban or close threads. So I don't think we have anything to worry about if JimBob becomes a mod*. I was thinking about the time Curt was made a mod on tBP. The reason given was that "he cared about the site". The Pundit stated that if this was the reason, he too should have been made a mod. I took this to mean that even though his ideas for tBP did not mesh with popular sentiment, he also cared about the direction tBP was heading.

Now, I think (know?) the principle of freedom of speech is pretty much set in stone here. JimBob's role would be to provoke discussions. He would act as the devil's advocate, much like the role the Pundit describes in one of his numerous rants against tBP.

Like I said, sanctioned shit stirring. I mean all the other mods are more or less in tune with what this site is supposed to be. JimBob's role as a mod could be to challenge conventional thought. He's outnumbered and surely outgunned, but I think he could play a useful role in provoking discussion about board policies.

*Off course JimBob may not want this role. He's probably going to tell me to go fuck myself "you silly drongo cocksmock"...but his temperament depends on whether he's had his quota of vegimite sandwiches....I kid, I kid.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SeanchaiBut that doesn't address my point of why people who got no respect from him should turn around give it him. Just because he's no longer a moderator? Or because he's posting here? Really?

All persons deserve respect, though some may lose that right; those who lose your respect should only be the unreasonable, and the cruel. Someone like Dominus Nox is not reasonable, and he is essentialy cruel, as all blatant racists are. Cessna is neither of these things, except in the normal human day-to-day-imperfection sort of way. What these people are like in person I cannot say; I speak only of how they present themselves.

Cessna is neither unreasonable, nor malicious, and so deserves respect.

Quote from: SeanchaiAre you referring to something that happened after I was banned? You're not suggesting I was banned because of something I hadn't done, are you? (Not that it would be out of character for the moderation at TBP.)

I've no idea whatsoever why you were banned, nor do I care. I say only that after being banned, you hung around in a pretty lame-arsed way. It's now years later - it's way past time to let it go. Let it go.

Quote from: SeanchaiNo, you didn't. You bring up how you got banned constantly.

I mention it to illustrate some other point, not to justify hostility against some harmless person online.

Quote from: SeanchaiIn line with the above, Pundit said some things. Cessna said some things. Cessna decided to leave. Why is Cessna and Cessna's participation suddenly more important than everyone else's? Why is it more important than the letter and spirit of the law here?

If Cessna had said something stupid and wrong to RPGPundit, and RPGPundit had said he'd leave and not come back, then you'd find that we'd be criticising Cessna, and telling him to sort his shit out.

There have been a couple of posters who came along to therpgsite, posted a few times, got offended by something someone said, and then left. In general, the response has been to express regret that they were leaving, and for people to tell off whoever offended them - if the perception is that the offence was simply personal, rather than arguing over whether d20 suxxorz or whatever.

It's pretty consistent, I think. I assure you that Cessna has not been given any special consideration here. RPGPundit is probably a bit picked on, but speaking from experience, if you post a lot and have strong opinions, then you'll be a target. You either suck it up and take it, or you post less and soften your opinions.

Quote from: SpikeI, for one, really hope Cessna was just bowing out of the thread.

I think he might take a rest from all online rpg discussion for a while. If I'm right that he saw moderating rpg.net as an obligation, well when a hobby becomes an obligation, the hobby becomes "work" in the "work is a four-letter word" sense... and he had time to be a mod, or game, but not both... And if I'm right he's been feeling burned-out and pissed-off for a while... Well, the guy just needs a rest from it for a bit.

Quote from: David RLike I said, sanctioned shit stirring. I mean all the other mods are more or less in tune with what this site is supposed to be. JimBob's role as a mod could be to challenge conventional thought. He's outnumbered and surely outgunned, but I think he could play a useful role in provoking discussion about board policies.

Since mods have no particular power of banning, etc, adding that lame-arsed "this machine kills fascists" nonsense under my name would not add or subtract anything from that role. I can challenge or support "conventional thought", whatever that is, without the mod role, and being a mod wouldn't actually add anything to that.

Quote from: SeanchaiFor example, in this very thread, the owner/operator of the board has been told to "have a fucking cookie," to "get off his dick, man," and called an "asshole," "a dribbling little dick," and a "cocksmock."

To be fair, I actually told Abyssal Maw to "get off his [Pundit's] dick".

Oh boy. You all need some therapy.

This is not a place for your emotional safety, where it is the responsibility of the owner to provide space to cuddle everyone you have a man-crush on.

Really, if somebody let´s him be mortally offended, then it´s by his own choice.

Get out of your care bear mode, there´s other forae for your emotional safety and imaginary online friends.

Tough luck for you who had longed to sycophantify around someone you "admire" for some strange reasons.

Yuck.

Jeez, Sett, just waiting for Maw to hop off so you could have a turn?

I don't know Cessna from Adam - couldn't even tell you what his posting style is like except "kinda succinct". But I'd been led to believe that Pundit in fact welcomed contributions to the board, that he wanted some people who like roleplaying games to come to his unmoderated board and talk about roleplaying games.

In truth, this can only apply if you were not in any way involved in his banning from rpg.net, which is clearly not only Serious Fucking Business (like all drama) but apparently the focal point in his life. There is "Before Pundit Was Banned from tBP", which was the height of an age of brutal intellectual honesty (:killingme:) and quality discussion, and there is "post-Ban", a dark age where the internet, and indeed all of gaming, is under attack by the twin forces of hyper-focused minigames and moderation ("But now I can't call Vampire players goth fags! You're crippling internet discourse about RPGs!) and only by lashing out from his bunker at the symbols of his banning, that most heinous of crimes, can Pundit possibly secure the world for HIS kind of gamer. Which is a shame, because it's possible that hounding people across the vastness of the internet in a self-pitying crusade is fucking pathetic.

But hey, I'm sure you've got a rhetorical war cry to denigrate this opinion with too. Swine on, motherfuckers. Swine on.

Quote from: Christmas ApeI don't know Cessna from Adam - couldn't even tell you what his posting style is like except "kinda succinct". But I'd been led to believe that Pundit in fact welcomed contributions to the board, that he wanted some people who like roleplaying games to come to his unmoderated board and talk about roleplaying games.

It's kinda of strange actually. The Pundit I assume wet himself when he thought Cessna might actually post here. He made a big show about how if Cessna posted here it would be some kind of "win" for freedom and more importantly that "The Dark Lord of Mordor" himself was upset with the way how things turned out at tBP.

But he (Pundit) could not keep his dick in his pants. He had to blast the old trumpet. Had to make a big show of how Cessna participating here was proof that tBP was a quagmire of Swine and Lawncrapers moderated by facists and that he (Cessna) had finally realized his role in the mess.

So in this way, Cessna I think was not just another poster. He brought to the site much baggage with him, baggage which I'm sure some folks would just love to rummage through.

Now I may be wrong, but I think tBP is by far the most obvious recruiting ground for posters for this site. But if folks there are going to feel that grudges are going to be carried on here for stuff they said  over there, I'm sure this site would not have many takers. I don't think folks mind being called on the stuff they say here, but who wants to fight about old shit best left buried.

Regards,
David R

See, you are basically right.

But:
If somebody leaves, he leaves. This is fucking RPGPundit´s site. Amazing that RPGPundit is uttering his views here, amazing I say.

If somebody cannot stand the picture Pundit´s twisted mirror refects back at him, he shouldn´t be in this "House of Fun" anyway.

And I can´t find any valuable discussions Cessna participated here for more than some short posts. His posting was centered on himself and his "I quit the internets drama". Pathetic.

Now,  I appreciate he´s a cool wargamer. Then stop the whining about something he pretends he doesn´t want to speak about and post about stuff he likes and dislikes in gaming.

Again, there´s way to much bigotry and care-bear attitude here too. Go cuddle with your man-crushes somewhere else, if your idols are too weak to face their past or too weak to ignore their past.

Real cool people are above shit flinging.

I´m not cool, but at least I´m not a crybaby-report-button-hittter-internet-quitter.

He comes here giving his "wounded lonesome Modboy" impersonation and runs away with his tail tucked behind his legs after the first Punditry. That´s your idol?

How lame.

QuoteSo in this way, Cessna I think was not just another poster. He brought to the site much baggage with him, baggage which I'm sure some folks would just love to rummage through.

And he made quite a show out of it.

EDIT:

Finally, the Cessna Fanboys have won over the yuckishness that are TeflonBillys Fanboys.

Quote from: SettembriniAnd he made quite a show out of it.

I don't think so, Sett. I think there are some folks here, some poor pathetic folks who can't get over they were banned from tBP. It was they who had man crushes on Cessna and needed some satisfaction.

Edit: There are so many folks you feel inferior to, very sad.

Regards,
David R

Cessna's gone? *shrug* (where's the shrug smiley gone?).

It is fairly amusing to see the hate hard-on being waved in pundits direction and the moaning and groaning from some internet guys about another internet guy who took his ball home.

However, i didn't see this level of annoyance when Grubman called it quits. I didn't see this level of annoyance (or any IIRC) when John Wick was run out of town. Perhaps this is because it was us, the user base, who did this and not the big bad wolf?

QuoteThere are so many folks you feel inferior to, very sad.

Why do you sitheads try kitchen psychology all of the time?
Did JimBob infect you guys with some virus?
Oh boy. It´s pretty lame.

But what the hell, think about me what you want.

Because this is not a popularity contest. But neither you, JimBob  or Cessna  seem to understand this.

Repeat: This is not a popularity contest.

It´s pretty stupid high school stuff you guys are pulling off here.
EDIT: I want a place where ideas fight it out. You want...something different, for reasons I can´t understand.

Quote from: One Horse TownCessna's gone? *shrug* (where's the shrug smiley gone?).

It is fairly amusing to see the hate hard-on being waved in pundits direction and the moaning and groaning from some internet guys about another internet guy who took his ball home.

However, i didn't see this level of annoyance when Grubman called it quits. I didn't see this level of annoyance (or any IIRC) when John Wick was run out of town. Perhaps this is because it was us, the user base, who did this and not the big bad wolf?

Honestly Dan, my take on the situation with Grubman and Wick is that neither of them were made to feel unwelcome. I mean in Grubman's case he just didn't like our play rough vibe and with Wick, well folks called him out on his BS and he decided that he didn't want to play with us anymore.

With Cessna it become this big political/freedom thing. I reckon' he just didn't want to justify his presence here...who does. I could be wrong, though.

Sett, you make this place feel like a high school sometimes, with your juvenile war and your constant references to being uncool.

Edit: Ideas about games, right Sett ? Not about who got fuckin' banned from where and why.

Regards,
David R

Christmas Ape's simian wisdom shines like a star.  The only war here is between Pundit's ego and reality; the only casualty is this site's credibility.

Part of me was worried, back when I joined, that this place would turn into "NotRPGnet".  I think it's safe to say that ship sailed a good while back.  Now the question is if all the Nox/TBP/Pundit bullshit will keep away new blood until this site stagnates and drops off the face of the earth.

Of course, it will all be worth it because Pundy got to rub his "victory" in the faces of two men he will never even lay eyes on.

EDIT for Story Time:  Once upon a time there was a site called The Garage Gym.  It was a godsend to beginning powerlifters and strength trainers who didn't know their asses from a hole in the ground.  The moderation was tight, perhaps overly so, and there was a powerful groupthink behind whose ideas were lauded and whose were rejected.  There was another board, run by some of heavy hitters at GG, that was the Wild fucking West by comparison.

After a big flameout at the GG, some 80% of the posters were banned "pending review".  This caused a massive exodus to the other board, where half the threads were suddenly about the fuckheads who were running GG.  The mods came down hard for the first time ever: Start a thread about the GG, it's locked.  Bitch about the locking and you're banned.  Why?  This is our board, not NotGarageGym, and fuck you if you don't like that.

It was crude but effective.  The board didn't turn into one big BAWWWWWW!-fest and it got pretty fucking huge for a while without losing its identity.

The moral is I like stories about internet drama.

EDIT numero dos:  The guys running GG were a pretty cool bunch on the balance.  One of them mailed me some equipment once; I didn't even pay shipping.

Quote from: fonkaygarryChristmas Ape's simian wisdom shines like a star.  The only war here is between Pundit's ego and reality; the only casualty is this site's credibility.

Part of me was worried, back when I joined, that this place would turn into "NotRPGnet".  I think it's safe to say that ship sailed a good while back.  Now the question is if all the Nox/TBP/Pundit bullshit will keep away new blood until this site stagnates and drops off the face of the earth.

Of course, it will all be worth it because Pundy got to rub his "victory" in the faces of two men he will never even lay eyes on.

I agree this is the problem, not some perceived "fan boy" issue with Cessna.  If he can't take heat in an argument fine but what does anybody gain by jumping him for stuff related to RPGnet.  Pundit can say whatever the hell he wants, no one contests that, but how useful is it to bring up a feud over  another board and drive away otherwise good posters.  On the Wick thing, there was a difference because I got the feeling that he joined the board and then quit when he did just to make a big show of running over to RPGnet to talk about what assholes you all were.  It was a fairly obvious ploy and made him look bad IMO.  This whole exchange with Cessna on the other hand was just pointless.  You may recall in the Wick exchange that even Pundit said it would be a shame if Wick stopped posting becuase of shit like this.

Quote from: David RSett, you make this place feel like a high school sometimes, with your juvenile war and your constant references to being uncool.

No. Junior high. Like 6th grade.

So, what?
That doesn´t take away any of my arguments, which you did not even address.

I forgot, you are here for your popularity contest and huging group, silly me.
:rolleyes:

Quote from: SettembriniThat doesn´t take away any of my arguments, which you did not even address.

Uh ... weren't your arguments mainly "Cessna is wrong for being too sensitive"?  I don't see how that is relevant to people's claim that Pundit was wrong for being abusive and vindictive.  Both things can easily be true at the same time.

You really can't vindicate Pundit by vilifying his targets.

QuoteBoth things can easily be true at the same time.

Hooray!
Yay for wisdom!

TonyLB wins this thread.

yay!  

okay, show's over folks

back to talking about funny dice & stuff

Thread closed.

Quote from: JimBobOzSomeone like Dominus Nox is not reasonable, and he is essentialy cruel, as all blatant racists are.

But that's just your opinion. There are plenty of people who agree with Nox and who think his views are just fine. I'm not one, but...

Quote from: JimBobOzCessna is neither unreasonable, nor malicious, and so deserves respect.

Did you see some of the judgements he passed down? And he certainly was one of the moderators who got off

Quote from: JimBobOzIt's now years later - it's way past time to let it go. Let it go.

If talking about it constitutes not letting go, take your own advice, dude.

Quote from: JimBobOzI mention it to illustrate some other point, not to justify hostility against some harmless person online.

Now he's "harmless"? What is he going to be next, a saint in a wheelchair?

You misunderstand. My banning per se isn't justification for any lack of respect for Cessna. I had problems with him and the other moderators long, long before I was banned. This has to do with his actions, not his actions against me.

Quote from: JimBobOzI assure you that Cessna has not been given any special consideration here.

That's not what I've seen.

Seanchai

Quote from: Christmas ApeBut I'd been led to believe that Pundit in fact welcomed contributions to the board, that he wanted some people who like roleplaying games to come to his unmoderated board and talk about roleplaying games.

In truth, this can only apply if you were not in any way involved in his banning from rpg.net, which is clearly not only Serious Fucking Business (like all drama) but apparently the focal point in his life.

Except what has Pundit done to drive Cessna away that folks haven't done to Nox or could do to any other poster? It's not like Pundit is saying any one can come for unmoderated discussion and then banning the folks he doesn't like.

There's no double standard that I can see.

Seanchai

Quote from: David RHonestly Dan, my take on the situation with Grubman and Wick is that neither of them were made to feel unwelcome.

So...the site is unmoderated, you're allowed to say what you will, etc., as long as you're fair and make others feel welcome?

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiSo...the site is unmoderated, you're allowed to say what you will, etc., as long as you're fair and make others feel welcome?

Uh ... why are you addressing of this from a Moderator's perspective?  I don't think that anyone is suggesting rules that would forbid Pundit from acting like a doink.  People are saying "In my opinion, he acted like a doink, and I'm gonna say so."

You keep saying "Ah!  But who decides what is fair and unfair, what is tolerable and what is not?", like it's a huge and troublesome question.  But it's really not.  We're not trying to form a vast consensus which is Always Right In All Things.  We're posting our personal opinions on the behavior of our fellows.  So who decides?  Each and every one of us, as individuals.

Is there something wrong with that?

Quote from: SeanchaiSo...the site is unmoderated, you're allowed to say what you will, etc., as long as you're fair and make others feel welcome?

Oh, boo-fucking-hoo.  No, as per Pundit's executive decision, you're free to be a jackass if you see fit, and you will, likely as not, get called to the floor for it.  Pundit's (and others') inability to get over the acrimony that started with his antagonistic stint at RPG.net doesn't rise much higher than Nox's inability to get over his ignorance, paranoia, and bigotry.  And here we are, saying so.  I'm more interested in Cessna's opinions on gaming than Pundit's.

!i!

How about Brian Gleichman?

Now he comes here, long history of posting at both The Forge and RPGNet, right? The guy has written what are IMHO interesting things on analyzing games and design theory; things like "Elements of Tactics" and "Layers of Design." He was posting about game theory when forums were in usenet groups.

Oh...and he dislikes Pundit. Calls him "mirror-swine" and things like that.

So what happens? Of course he crosses words with Pundy. And sooner or later he decides to leave (as he had left The Forge and RPGNet before). He claimed he had stated up front it was all just a test to see if he liked the place, and that Pundit's influence caused him to decide otherwise.

How did you all react then?

Well, here's our great orator of standards:

Quote from: JimBobOzDear Gleichman,

It's just chatting on the internet. Relax. Grow the fuck up, you drongo.

Love,
JimBobOz

And:

Quote from: Mcrowgleichman is kinda like cartman form south park. Every couple weeks he's stomps off saying "Screw you guys. I'm going home." , and says he wont be back.

There's mocking and references to bets placed on how long gleichman will stay, and similar stuff.  All of the reaction is perfectly valid and possibly justified by his history in other places.

Now how does that stand against the discussion with respect to Cessna?

Quote from: JimBobOzDon't be a cocksmock, RPGPundit.

Quote from: JimBobOzBut he's a person - not just some internet name - and he and his efforts at rpg.net are well worthy of respect. As an rpg.net mod and admin, he has made wrong decisions - but he is a reasonable and sensible person, and the poor guy quite obviously had only time for one hobby, moderating rpg.net or roleplaying - foolishly, out of a sense of obligation, he chose the moderating - another wrong decision, but a human one.

Quote from: McrowAll I have to say is this stupid-ass vendetta is getting real old.

Why must Pundy continue to rail against the big purple?

It's getting to the point where he is getting delusional and paranoid, no joke.

Now granted, I don't know if Mcrow is angry about Cessna in particular, or just a general dislike of Pundy's stupidity. But it's sure a difference from the reaction to gleichman.

What's the difference? It's certainly not about talking about games – go back and look at some of the stuff gleichman posted – it's solid stuff on game design. So it must be something else.

Could it be whether or not the person leaving is liked by the individual who is now complaining about Pundit's behavior? That's OK; it's perfectly valid to want the people you like to stay.  I wish gleichamn would have stayed.

But this high and mighty shit because Pundit dissed someone you like is a bullshit hypocrisy.

I may have piled in a little, I don't recall, but I don't remember giving a shit about Gleichman. They seemed to have some ancient grudge I wasn't interested in. This, though, was about The Ban. I'm very tired of hearing about The Ban. Do you know why I'm sick to death of The Ban?

Because I want theRPGSite to be about more than where Pundit got banned.

That's it, man. I love this place. But every revolution carries with it the seeds of its own destruction.

I guess my point is, CA, would you have cared if gleichman was the one removed because of the Pundit's stupid inability to let it go? If so, by all means, rail against Pundit's stupid inability to let it go. That's a question only you can answer for yourself.

But to claim Cessna deserved some kind of special dispensation for the greater good of the site is, as I said, silly.

I appreciated Gleichman's posts. We had a couple of good discussions. He had issues with the Pundit even before Pundit took over this site. And if I remember correctly during the Nutkinland days he wasn't exactly popular with the admins at the time. I think they may have once messed with his account as they usually do, when someone pissed them off. So there is some backstory with Brian.

I don't think that I was calling for special dispensation for Cessna. But I do think it's good for this site if some folks here fued with tBP ended esp the fued amongst certain members. A lot of folks here disagree with the mod policy over there, it just that we don't feel the need to go on about it over here...which you are perfectly within your rights to do, but it's not doing the site any good in the long run.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: James J SkachI guess my point is, CA, would you have cared if gleichman was the one removed because of the Pundit's stupid inability to let it go? If so, by all means, rail against Pundit's stupid inability to let it go. That's a question only you can answer for yourself.

But to claim Cessna deserved some kind of special dispensation for the greater good of the site is, as I said, silly.

I do not know about others but I was never claiming such. I don't like it when anyone carries a grudge and acts as Pundit did. It is unproductive and not entertaining. I hope you realize how very frustrating it is when someone takes your well meant advice and twists it to suit their own ends as Pundit did. It is annoying and petty. If I saw it elsewhere I would protest it as much as here. For me, it is not about Cessna but trying to potty train Pundit.

Bill

I honestly don't know.

Who the fuck, in RPG terms, is Brian Gleichman?

Quote from: Christmas ApeI honestly don't know.

Who the fuck, in RPG terms, is Brian Gleichman?

STR - Average
INT - High
DEX -...

this is not what you meant...? :D

Regards,
David R

:brood:

Funny, funny guy!




:D

Quote from: James J SkachNow granted, I don't know if Mcrow is angry about Cessna in particular, or just a general dislike of Pundy's stupidity. But it's sure a difference from the reaction to gleichman.

 

I couldn't give a rat's hairy ass about Cessna posting here or not.

I'm just sick of Pundit's crap.:D

Quote from: James J SkachHow about Brian Gleichman?

Now he comes here, long history of posting at both The Forge and RPGNet, right? The guy has written what are IMHO interesting things on analyzing games and design theory; things like "Elements of Tactics" and "Layers of Design." He was posting about game theory when forums were in usenet groups.

Oh...and he dislikes Pundit. Calls him "mirror-swine" and things like that.

Did he now?

Gleichman is awesome. I love his work. I miss him a lot.

Late last year I checked the rpg advocacy group for the first time in my life, and he and a few others of the original gang seemed to have been regrouping. It was kinda touching, actually.

Yeah, I think they are gathering again.  I was planning on checking it out one of these days.

I'd give you a link, CA, but it seems to be broken at the moment.

I'm not sure who he is or was, I literally didn't encounter him until he posted some (IMHO awesome) stuff here. I'm not sure if he published anything I could point to, other than these papers I found at this site (http://home.comcast.net/~b.gleichman/). But like I said, that link is giving me some Comcast personal page error. Fortunately, I downloaded them into Word, so I'd be happy to provide the ones I have if anyone wants them. Unless gleichman comes here himself to tell me not to.

For those of you just ragging on Pundit for being an ass - well, you've got no shortage of ammunition, and I support the effort.  It just seemed odd that it appeared to be brought about because of Cessna. For those of you not caring if it's Cessna or not, my apologies.

I'm curious, is the issue that he's being a dick because of this grudge, or just being a dick in general? If it's the former, are there other grudges for which Pundit will be called to account if he's a dick?  Ya know, just so we can be consistent...

EDIT: Irony wins.  His articles are still up at RPGNet. (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/collists/elements.html)

Gleichman essentially withdrew his material from the internet after some heated discussions, shall we say, on the Forge.

Some of his stuff is available on rpg.net:

http://www.rpg.net/columns/list-column.phtml?colname=elements

Quote from: James J SkachIf it's the former, are there other grudges for which Pundit will be called to account if he's a dick?  Ya know, just so we can be consistent...

I'm pretty sure Bruce Baugh is on his shit list...:D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: James J SkachI'm curious, is the issue that he's being a dick because of this grudge,

This is the root of it for me. Grudges are stupid in my opinion and subtract from my enjoyment of the site. I find them disruptive. Combine that with the other item I mentioned and it is distasteful.

Quote from: James J Skachor just being a dick in general? If it's the former, are there other grudges for which Pundit will be called to account if he's a dick?  Ya know, just so we can be consistent...

For me, this is lesser although I am a fan of good manners and restraint. I am not going to call him on it since it is of little consequence. Personally, I would rag on him for his hate-on with the Forge and RPG.Net. Mind, I agree with a number of points he has about the Forge but there is disagreeing (post in response to a "What is the Forge" with "They Suck and Here is Why") with them, then there is scary delusional "They are carrying on a war to destroy all that is holy in MY hobby. Gather unto me minions!"). However, this would also be a full time job and take away from me posting to RPG threads. If you wish to take up the banner of following Pundit and others around, posting to every thread they post to, telling them just how big a dicks they are being, well, good luck with that. I will try and post more to the excellent RPG threads. ;)

Bill

I was mostly amused and speaking because of Pundit's hypocrisy. "I drop all baggage now, and welcome him with open arms." moments later... "blah fucking blah proaganda blah don't be a wuss blah." Pundit lashing out at someone is nothing new. Pundit being a complete and total ass to anyone who fails to properly tickle his ego's testicles is nothing new. Actually, the hypocrisy is nothing new either, but I've been avoiding his threads even after he dropped the "run and hide from James" BS, so I haven't seen any in a while.

Quote from: James J SkachI'm curious, is the issue that he's being a dick because of this grudge, or just being a dick in general? If it's the former, are there other grudges for which Pundit will be called to account if he's a dick?  Ya know, just so we can be consistent...

He was called to account back when he started three grudge threads that were explicitly "not about Borgstrom" but called her a moron in the thread title becaues of his grudges. He's been called on it when he accuses posters of having agendas and attacking him in every post when it's plain to see that most of their talk is about games. I'm sure he'll be called on it again in the future.

Of course, it won't matter, because there's no way to potty train a walking pile of shit without flushing him whole, to continue someone else's metaphor for the situation.

Well, I've been reading some Gleichman articles.

And that's very nice insight, but how does it help me in my session-to-session play? Right now, I'm happier Rotwang! is here. That Funnel shit he does?

PURE. GOLD.


EDIT: Also, this Gleichman fellow seems to talk often (in a "how I used this tidbit" sense) about a game called Age of Heroes, about which Google tells me little.

EDIT EDIT: Found an RPG.net review. Thanks, I've got enough D&D.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Especially miniature-focused D&D, called 'Age of Heroes' (which makes me think Achilles, Odysseus, et al) yet based in the same Middle Dark Iron Ages pablum every other fucking fantasy game is based in.

Quote from: TonyLBUh ... why are you addressing of this from a Moderator's perspective?  

I'm not.

Quote from: TonyLBI don't think that anyone is suggesting rules that would forbid Pundit from acting like a doink.  People are saying "In my opinion, he acted like a doink, and I'm gonna say so."

Except you're not. People who called him names did that. Then there are the folks talking about why he shouldn't have had to go through the situation that he did, that Cessna should be able to expect to be treated fairly and welcomed.

And,again, given the state of moderation, why?

Edit: Ah, English.

Seanchai

"Popularity forever..." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYiKdJoSsb8)

Why'd you post that?

Quote from: HinterWeltFor me, it is not about Cessna but trying to potty train Pundit.

Again, I'm new and not familar with the history of the site, but isn't this board his, to do with what he will? Or does he look after it for someone else? Or something similar.

Seanchai

Quote from: Christmas ApeWell, I've been reading some Gleichman articles.

And that's very nice insight, but how does it help me in my session-to-session play? Right now, I'm happier Rotwang! is here. That Funnel shit he does?

PURE. GOLD.

Oh, we miscommunicated.  I did not mean to say that he (gleichman) is good for everyone or for session-to-session stuff.  I liked it solely for the analysis of design issues that wasn't all caught up in player types and agendas.  It was the kind of design discussion I personally was slanted towards - how do these changes in mechanics effect the flow of the game, etc.

I, too, love Doc's stuff. I'm playing more now, and at some point hope to get back in to running games, and I'm sure I'll be stealing liberally from the genius sprinkled around here.  With or without gleichman or Cessna.

I don't know about Age of Heroes, so I can't comment.

Quote from: HinterWeltThis is the root of it for me. Grudges are stupid in my opinion and subtract from my enjoyment of the site. I find them disruptive. Combine that with the other item I mentioned and it is distasteful.

For me, this is lesser although I am a fan of good manners and restraint. I am not going to call him on it since it is of little consequence. Personally, I would rag on him for his hate-on with the Forge and RPG.Net. Mind, I agree with a number of points he has about the Forge but there is disagreeing (post in response to a "What is the Forge" with "They Suck and Here is Why") with them, then there is scary delusional "They are carrying on a war to destroy all that is holy in MY hobby. Gather unto me minions!"). However, this would also be a full time job and take away from me posting to RPG threads. If you wish to take up the banner of following Pundit and others around, posting to every thread they post to, telling them just how big a dicks they are being, well, good luck with that. I will try and post more to the excellent RPG threads. ;)

Bill

You know me well enough now, Bill, to know that I like to try to break things down to their most granular meaningful elements.  So I'm just trying to get a handle on why people got so upset over Cessna.

I'm realizing that it wasn't so much about Cessna as a confluence of him being the one "chased away" at the time people were getting sick of Pundit. If that's all it was, s'all cool with me.

I wonder if there was a mirror TheRPGSite started by someone, but without Pundit as anything other than troll, would ya'll go there to chat?

Quote from: David RA lot of folks here disagree with the mod policy over there, it just that we don't feel the need to go on about it over here...

Except I don't know that I'd say folks are going on about it. It's germane to the subject of this thread. If folks were inserting their views into threads not related to TBP, then I could see your point...

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiAgain, I'm new and not familar with the history of the site, but isn't this board his, to do with what he will? Or does he look after it for someone else? Or something similar.

Seanchai

Whether he owns the board is not relevant as far as I can tell. He acted the inappropriately IMO. I called him on it.

As owner of the board, I guess he could ban me for it. That is his call.

Bill

Quote from: James J SkachYou know me well enough now, Bill, to know that I like to try to break things down to their most granular meaningful elements.  So I'm just trying to get a handle on why people got so upset over Cessna.

I'm realizing that it wasn't so much about Cessna as a confluence of him being the one "chased away" at the time people were getting sick of Pundit. If that's all it was, s'all cool with me.

I wonder if there was a mirror TheRPGSite started by someone, but without Pundit as anything other than troll, would ya'll go there to chat?

I can only speak for myself but you have my position on the matter.

As to a Pundit-less theRPGSite, I would consider it. I am not a big theorist so a lot of the focused boards out there are not for me. RPG.Net is a bit touchy for me to comfortably chat, not that I am gunning to do racial slurs or anything. EnWorld is just a little too drenched in D20 for me. Circus Maximus seems way too like tangency to me. There are some smaller sites I find interesting but they have a very limited community.

And yes, James, I hope I did not come off too snarky. My goal was to clarify not dig. Essentially, Pundit is not going to know that behavior is not appreciated if you just sit and nod at the screen, you need to post (not, generic you).

Bill

Quote from: James J SkachI wonder if there was a mirror TheRPGSite started by someone, but without Pundit as anything other than troll, would ya'll go there to chat?

Probably not. But if it existed and I'd found it first, I probably wouldn't come here. This assumes that other than Pundit's status as Boss Man everything else remains the same. Unless I see an interesting title pop up on the front page (like the Gygax thread) I ignore his subforum, so for the most part it would be the exact same experience.

Quote from: TonyLBUh ... weren't your arguments mainly "Cessna is wrong for being too sensitive"?  I don't see how that is relevant to people's claim that Pundit was wrong for being abusive and vindictive.  Both things can easily be true at the same time.

You really can't vindicate Pundit by vilifying his targets.

Actually most of us cesspool haters hated him for being a pompous asshole, which he was, is and likely always will be.

Quote from: HinterWeltWhether he owns the board is not relevant as far as I can tell.

You said you were trying to change his behavior ("For me, it is not about Cessna but trying to potty train Pundit"). If he is the board owner, it seems to me to be like telling someone what to do in their own home.

And it's not as if he didn't lay out the ground rules for what was acceptable behavior in his home...

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiExcept I don't know that I'd say folks are going on about it. It's germane to the subject of this thread. If folks were inserting their views into threads not related to TBP, then I could see your point...

Seanchai

Actually it happens here a lot. A poster just started a thread about tBP which wasn't well received because folks thought that this subject should be allowed to die.

This thread really wasn't about mod policy until the Pundit decided to distort what Cessna had said and explicitly state that Cessna was here because he'd had enough of tBP on another thread and on his bolg. He then went on to encourage others who felt the "same" way to "defect" here. Cessna decided that this site wasn't worth the trouble and left. The thread then became about the Pundit's dickish behaviour and whether Cessna deserved special dispensation.

In fact I think - I can't bother looking through this wreck - that mod policy wasn't even brought up except in passing and even then without the usual rancor.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: HinterWeltWhether he owns the board is not relevant as far as I can tell. He acted the inappropriately IMO. I called him on it.

Actually if I'm not mistaken calling folks out on their BS is one of the sanctioned (by the Pundit) ground rules of this place.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThis thread really wasn't about mod policy until the Pundit decided to distort what Cessna had said and explicitly state that Cessna was here because he'd had enough of tBP on another thread and on his bolg.

It wasn't about moderation policy per se, but it was about Cessna, the TBP and him no longer being a moderator there. It's not like we're wildly off topic talking about things related to Cessna and him being a moderator at TBP.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiYou said you were trying to change his behavior ("For me, it is not about Cessna but trying to potty train Pundit"). If he is the board owner, it seems to me to be like telling someone what to do in their own home.

And it's not as if he didn't lay out the ground rules for what was acceptable behavior in his home...

Seanchai

And that is not how it is to me. It is not his home. It is a public square to me. Pundit happens to be the organizer of the RPG talks in this corner. I would do likewise if such an organizer were acting in a similar manner.

I am still of the opinion that his "ownership" of the site is not an issue. He may act inappropriately anyway.

Bill

Quote from: SeanchaiIt wasn't about moderation policy per se, but it was about Cessna, the TBP and him no longer being a moderator there. It's not like we're wildly off topic talking about things related to Cessna and him being a moderator at TBP.

True, but here's the thing Seanchai, a lot of folks who like this place are getting tired of the Pundit defining this place as the "freedom from oppresive BP mods" haven. Sooner or later it was bound to happen. Just as tBP is successful despite the mods (IMO), so does this place thrive in spite of the Pundit's dodgy rants .

I think folks (I sure am) are tired of this fued with tBP. My comments were directed in support of those who want this fued to end and are tired of the sometimes wankerish behaviour of the Pundit when it comes to tBP.

I was also commenting on the need for threads about tBP mod policy. Believe me I'm not sayin' that folks should not create them but just that I doubt they would receive a warm reception...which they would have in the early days...you know a couple of months ago :D We have short attention spans....

Regards,
David R

You know, I don't hate or dislike Cessna at all. I find something like that to be faintly unreasonable. As a user at RPG.net, I disagreed with the way the site was (is) heading, and he was a part of that. That said, it's the mods perogative. If they want to allow people to question their judgement and what have you, well, I think that's the right way to go in general.
Of course, given the amazing amount of nitpickery and general dickery, I'm not surprised it fostered such a siege mentality. The mods all dig in their heels and start to act like assholes to the users, even if they don't realize it. Not all of them, and not to the same extent, but it happens at some point.

Here, though, why should I get angry at him? He's not a mod. The only issues I'd have with him is if he acts like a jerk, and then I'll just ignore him. (as opposed to ILing him, which I haven't done ever, yet)

Still, did he really think nobody was going to call him on his stint at RPG.net? It's like a bouncer going to a club off-hours that possessed a bunch of people he booted. He's probably not going to be popular. I'm surprised he didn't see it coming. What he got was actually fairly mild, but I'm not surprised it didn't appeal to him.

Quote from: SeanchaiPundit "lashing out" at Cessna was far, far from surprising. Cessna and Pundit have history. Cessna and a few posters here have history. The moderators as a collective and a few posters here have history.

Also, Cessna's going from protected status to just another poster. While you can disagree (politely) with moderators on TBP, they're not just another board member. That's not the case here. Cessna no more or less protected than anyone.

Moreover, there's the role reversal. It used to be that Cessna was the authority and Pundit the regular joe. Now Pundit's the authority.

"Some say that you are no more fit to be Caesar than your nephew was!"
"I agree."
"Then what is the difference between you and Caligula?"
"He would NOT have agreed. And y-your head would be on a p-pike for having said so!"
(from Graves' I, Claudius)

In other words, the difference is that on this site, I'm not more protected than anyone either.  The benefits of inviolability that Cessna took upon himself as part of the RPG.net modclique do not exist for me here, because I have chosen that they will not.  So its not a case of the shoe having been on the other foot, and his having been unable to handle being in an inferior power position.
He was, in fact, on an equal footing, and apparently still decided he couldn't handle it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JongWKYou do understand that you chased off a gamer who came here to talk about games, right? Congratulations. /sarcasm

I have said far worse things to slightly better people. If he chose to run, its his choice. I didn't "chase" anyone.

Maybe he spent too long in Rpg.net but if he really wanted to turn around now, after stating that RPG.net had become a place "so inane and boring that he hated it", he should have argued with me about it. Not run off because here there would be no mod coming to stop me from being the big bad man who actually calls him on his crap.

That's why this place isn't boring and inane.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RCessna, you made the right decision. I hope you change your mind, but honestly if you're going to have to put up with some folks distorting what you say and fuckers who keep trying to settle old scores, you're better off some place else.

Regards,
David R

Thing is, I was defending him against others on here, when he'd stated that RPG.net had become a "boring and inane" place, I thought "FUCK, yes! Awesome! Cessna has finally seen the light of reason, and now welcome aboard and more power to you!".
Only now, he turns back around.
And on top of that, you guys act like I just kicked the living shit out of Gandhi or something; like this fucker should be treated with kid gloves or something, just to have him around?
If he wants to be here to talk RPGs, that's great. But if he chooses to start talking about his experience at RPG.net, then he'd better get ready for some reactions for good and ill; and if he suddenly flip-flops on it, then all the moreso.
It doesn't mean he's going to be banned on here. I'm not going to speak in my modvoice and write in red lettering and suspend him, I'm just going to accuse him of hypocrisy. He doesn't have to run away like little girly-man; he could have responded, or he could have ignored me and just gone back to posting on the gaming forums of this site. Its not like I'd have gone onto the "other games" forum and interrupted his thread about Memoir '44 or something to keep going with the argument.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JimBobOzThat was the thing that struck me about the "why did you join therpgsite?" thread. I was the only one who just said, "I came to talk about roleplaying." Everyone else's reply was "to be able to call people on their bullshit!" or "dedication to brutal intellectual honesty" and stuff like that. For many, it seems to be - as you say - some kind of political act.

I'm here on therpgsite for the same reason I was on rpg.net, or sjgames forum, or Masters of Luck and Death (HeroQuest) or a host of others - I like to talk about roleplaying.

I like to talk about other things, too, of course - but there are other forums for those.

For a guy who is constantly harping about how he "just came here to talk about roleplaying", you sure spend an Imperial Shitload of your time on here talking about anything but...

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RJames, as we are repeatedly told, mods here don't have any power to ban or close threads. So I don't think we have anything to worry about if JimBob becomes a mod*. I was thinking about the time Curt was made a mod on tBP. The reason given was that "he cared about the site". The Pundit stated that if this was the reason, he too should have been made a mod. I took this to mean that even though his ideas for tBP did not mesh with popular sentiment, he also cared about the direction tBP was heading.

Now, I think (know?) the principle of freedom of speech is pretty much set in stone here. JimBob's role would be to provoke discussions. He would act as the devil's advocate, much like the role the Pundit describes in one of his numerous rants against tBP.

Like I said, sanctioned shit stirring. I mean all the other mods are more or less in tune with what this site is supposed to be. JimBob's role as a mod could be to challenge conventional thought. He's outnumbered and surely outgunned, but I think he could play a useful role in provoking discussion about board policies.

I think you really don't fucking understand what the role of a mod, or of a regular poster here is.  In what fucking way could making Jimbob a mod make him any more capable of doing any of the things you mentioned than he is now, as a regular poster.

"mods" here do a single job, which is to check for problems with posts, usually from Spammers. "Tech mods" check for problems with the technology.
REGULAR FUCKING POSTERS are the ones who do shit like "play devils' advocate" here. I ask them to all the time.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Christmas ApeIn truth, this can only apply if you were not in any way involved in his banning from rpg.net, which is clearly not only Serious Fucking Business (like all drama) but apparently the focal point in his life. There is "Before Pundit Was Banned from tBP", which was the height of an age of brutal intellectual honesty (:killingme:) and quality discussion, and there is "post-Ban", a dark age where the internet, and indeed all of gaming, is under attack by the twin forces of hyper-focused minigames and moderation ("But now I can't call Vampire players goth fags! You're crippling internet discourse about RPGs!) and only by lashing out from his bunker at the symbols of his banning, that most heinous of crimes, can Pundit possibly secure the world for HIS kind of gamer. Which is a shame, because it's possible that hounding people across the vastness of the internet in a self-pitying crusade is fucking pathetic.

Hey, Ape?
2005 called. It says it doesn't want its anti-pundit rant back, you can keep it, it was a stupid-ass rant to begin with.

Look around you. You're IN my fucking "bunker". You and nearly 3000 other dudes. The whole "Pundit is just one lame lone nutjob, no one supports him and he'll never amount to anything" was pretty much put to rest when my blog readership went through the roof (specifically, the roof of most of the blogs belonging to the stupid fucks who were making those kinds of claims).  And now, given the fact that I turned around a dead RPG site and turned it into what you see today, what you fucking post in today as a matter of fact, contrary to all the claims of the Swine who were just fucking desperate to see me fail and bring me down, the whole "pundit in the bunker" rant makes you look utterly retarded.  Especially if you write said rant on the very fucking Site That Pundit Built.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Christmas ApeIn truth, this can only apply if you were not in any way involved in his banning from rpg.net, which is clearly not only Serious Fucking Business (like all drama) but apparently the focal point in his life. There is "Before Pundit Was Banned from tBP", which was the height of an age of brutal intellectual honesty (:killingme:) and quality discussion, and there is "post-Ban", a dark age where the internet, and indeed all of gaming, is under attack by the twin forces of hyper-focused minigames and moderation ("But now I can't call Vampire players goth fags! You're crippling internet discourse about RPGs!) and only by lashing out from his bunker at the symbols of his banning, that most heinous of crimes, can Pundit possibly secure the world for HIS kind of gamer. Which is a shame, because it's possible that hounding people across the vastness of the internet in a self-pitying crusade is fucking pathetic.

Quote from: David RI don't think so, Sett. I think there are some folks here, some poor pathetic folks who can't get over they were banned from tBP. It was they who had man crushes on Cessna and needed some satisfaction.

Edit: There are so many folks you feel inferior to, very sad.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: fonkaygarryChristmas Ape's simian wisdom shines like a star. The only war here is between Pundit's ego and reality; the only casualty is this site's credibility.

Part of me was worried, back when I joined, that this place would turn into "NotRPGnet".  I think it's safe to say that ship sailed a good while back. Now the question is if all the Nox/TBP/Pundit bullshit will keep away new blood until this site stagnates and drops off the face of the earth.

Of course, it will all be worth it because Pundy got to rub his "victory" in the faces of two men he will never even lay eyes on.

My opinion has been expressed far better than I would have. I will say it again: it's time for people to stop flogging RPG.net's dead horse. Some of you were banned from there: life sometimes sucks. Get over it.

We seem to have different ideas of "built". But don't worry, I won't try to bring you down with reality.

I'll settle for pointing out that many other people here seem to have read my post with some degree of comprehension, rather than ignoring it and rubbing one off while screaming "I'M THE GREATEST EVAR! I WIN THE INTERNETS!", and that they agree with my actual point.

Site owners can be trolls too.

Quote from: RPGPunditThing is, I was defending him against others on here, when he'd stated that RPG.net had become a "boring and inane" place, I thought "FUCK, yes! Awesome! Cessna has finally seen the light of reason, and now welcome aboard and more power to you!".
Only now, he turns back around.

This is BS. If this was the case...hell if you said anything like this I doubt he would have left. Yeah he said "boring and inane" (I can't be sure but I don't doubt it) but as far as "admitting" his role.... come one. As usual you were trying to gain some ammo out of him being here to use against your war with tBP. Light of reason...Jesus, I (and I'm sure many others) are here because we find the posters interesting, not because we have seen the fuckin' light of reason.

QuoteAnd on top of that, you guys act like I just kicked the living shit out of Gandhi or something; like this fucker should be treated with kid gloves or something, just to have him around?

Nope, nobody was asking for special treatment for Cessna. If you had done this with with anyone else I'm sure you would have gotten the same response. The way you treated Cessna is directly connected with your (and others...Sett take a bow) feud with tBP. You wanted to use him as ammo and he said by leaving - "Fuck that"

QuoteIf he wants to be here to talk RPGs, that's great. But if he chooses to start talking about his experience at RPG.net, then he'd better get ready for some reactions for good and ill; and if he suddenly flip-flops on it, then all the moreso.

True, but notice he didn't have a problem with Seanchai or Sett dogpiling on him. But he did have a problem when the owner of this site started implying/distorting what he said as evidence of something....

QuoteIt doesn't mean he's going to be banned on here. I'm not going to speak in my modvoice and write in red lettering and suspend him, I'm just going to accuse him of hypocrisy. He doesn't have to run away like little girly-man; he could have responded, or he could have ignored me and just gone back to posting on the gaming forums of this site. Its not like I'd have gone onto the "other games" forum and interrupted his thread about Memoir '44 or something to keep going with the argument.

Yeah or maybe he just doesn't want to put up with this BS anymore. Ever think he may have wanted to leave all this BS politics behind and just talk about games. He was wrong if he thought that he could do it here. There are a few of you - Seanchai not included - who would use his presence here as some kind of win for this site. When really there is no real war.

And maybe just maybe he thought behind all this internet BS, therpgsite was really the place to talk about rpgs without censoring yourself. For most of the posters here it's true but for him, because of who he was, this will never be the case. And for fucks sake, cut out the girly man shit. Sett uses it often, the last thing you want is to start sounding like him.

About my suggestion of making JimBob a mod. Yeah "this machine kills facist" deals* only with tech problems and spammers. Okay, I suppose these problems could be considered facists. But fuck that, considering what they do here it was a dumb idea.

*For the record when I have had to deal with the mods about these problems they have been very professional and helpful, all of them. The Pundit, UmaSama and Jrients.

Regards,
David R

QuoteYeah or maybe he just doesn't want to put up with this BS anymore.

Maybe it´s because it was BS he did or supported back in the day?

Quote from: SettembriniMaybe it´s because it was BS he did or supported back in the day?

Maybe. And maybe you knew what tBP was when you signed up. Maybe you behaved like a dick on purpose. But this is today. This is therpgsite. Maybe it's time you let it go.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RYeah or maybe he just doesn't want to put up with this BS anymore. Ever think he may have wanted to leave all this BS politics behind and just talk about games. He was wrong if he thought that he could do it here. There are a few of you - Seanchai not included - who would use his presence here as some kind of win for this site. When really there is no real war.

And maybe just maybe he thought behind all this internet BS, therpgsite was really the place to talk about rpgs without censoring yourself. For most of the posters here it's true but for him, because of who he was, this will never be the case. And for fucks sake, cut out the girly man shit. Sett uses it often, the last thing you want is to start sounding like him.

I think on reflection this is what particularly bugged me. That Cessna was just so fucking tired of rpg.net, he stepped down as admin on a permanent basis, he doesn't appear to chat there at all any more, and he wanted to talk about some fucking roleplaying games somewhere he didn't have to be Commissar Emeritus, you know? Somewhere that we didn't give a shit what his avatar used to look like, didn't give a damn what he'd done for tBP, where we'd just talk Traveller and wargames and shit. Somewhere that he was another gamer, who liked to talk games.

His mistake, I think, was either making it clear that it really was him or trying to actually engage Pundit in genuine conversation. When the dog barks, you bark back, then walk away.

Quotewhere we'd just talk Traveller and wargames and shit.

Nobody, nobody shitted in his game-talk with his past.
And nobody will.

Talk about games, he could.

Did he?

Not much.

So...he brought this on himself then Sett?

He invited it by posting to a thread about him, in response to Pundit's "HAHAHAH I WIN INTERNETS" bullshit?

Repeat:

Has anybody shitted on him in any On-Topic thread?
Did Pundit stalk him into his other discussions?

No. The drama erupted in a drama thread, only one participant couldn´t handle the drama.

Quote from: SettembriniRepeat:

Has anybody shitted on him in any On-Topic thread?
Did Pundit stalk him into his other discussions?

No. The drama erupted in a drama thread, only one participant couldn´t handle the drama.

So it's just a "poisoned well" argument?  Fuck that, Sett.  It's bullshit.

He tried to offer a bit of advice and Pundit twisted his comments to use in his fucking retarded "war."  That'd piss me off, too.  So yeah, he left.

Pundit was a dickhead.  That's all there is to it.

QuoteHe tried to offer a bit of advice and Pundit twisted his comments to use in his fucking retarded "war." That'd piss me off, too. So yeah, he left.

If you don´t see the ridiculousness in that...

Quote from: SettembriniIf you don´t see the ridiculousness in that...

I totally do.  That's why I said he was a dickhead.

Quote from: RPGPunditThing is, I was defending him against others on here, when he'd stated that RPG.net had become a "boring and inane" place, I thought "FUCK, yes! Awesome! Cessna has finally seen the light of reason, and now welcome aboard and more power to you!".

There's a clear line between gloating and offering an olive branch. You should have stuck to the latter.

Hey, when the guy who was basically chief dictator of RPG.net turns around and says "even I hate it on RPG.net, because its become so sanitized, because of what we did to it", and that was precisely what he fucking said, I'm going to take a moment to enjoy that.


And again, that is what he said, right here, in this forum. He said that his mod decisions made RPG.net into a place so inane and boring that even he hated it.

How the FUCK is that not admitting that you were wrong?

RPGPundit

For me this had nothing to do with Cessna.  I've never had a conversation with the man and never had a run in with mods at TBP.  My issue with this whole situation is this.

Cessna admitted to the people at RPGnet that he posts here for good mod-free gaming discussion.

Cessna stepped down as an admin because he was burned out from all the time he spent chasing down complaints at RPGnet.

Cessna posted here and quite clearly warned us against turning this place into a bland colorless board like RPGnet.

It should have ended there.  Actions speak louder than words but instead of letting Cessna's actions speak for themselves, Pundit tried to wring an admission out of him that RPGnet sucks as a "see I told you so".  Cessna was never going to say that and all the exchange accomplished was to undo the work some posters here have done on RPGnet to try to lure new posters into giving this place a try.

Quote from: David RI think folks (I sure am) are tired of this fued with tBP. My comments were directed in support of those who want this fued to end and are tired of the sometimes wankerish behaviour of the Pundit when it comes to tBP.

I can understand that. But, for me, it comes back to who owns the board. It's Pundit. It's his board. Whether you love or hate TBP, you have to expect given the owners views that there's going to be a number of discussions about the site.

Seanchai

Quote from: ImperatorMy opinion has been expressed far better than I would have. I will say it again: it's time for people to stop flogging RPG.net's dead horse. Some of you were banned from there: life sometimes sucks. Get over it.

I'm not sure why people assume we're not. Because we talk about it? So what?

Seanchai

Quote from: GrimjackFor me this had nothing to do with Cessna.  I've never had a conversation with the man and never had a run in with mods at TBP.  My issue with this whole situation is this.

Cessna admitted to the people at RPGnet that he posts here for good mod-free gaming discussion.

Cessna stepped down as an admin because he was burned out from all the time he spent chasing down complaints at RPGnet.

Cessna posted here and quite clearly warned us against turning this place into a bland colorless board like RPGnet.

It should have ended there.  Actions speak louder than words but instead of letting Cessna's actions speak for themselves, Pundit tried to wring an admission out of him that RPGnet sucks as a "see I told you so".  Cessna was never going to say that and all the exchange accomplished was to undo the work some posters here have done on RPGnet to try to lure new posters into giving this place a try.

My point exactly.

Quote from: David RTrue, but notice he didn't have a problem with Seanchai or Sett dogpiling on him.

No, but to be fair, by the time I really started talking about him, he'd already left. I'd made some comments about his judgements, but that was about it.

Seanchai

Quote from: Christmas ApeSomewhere that we didn't give a shit what his avatar used to look like, didn't give a damn what he'd done for tBP, where we'd just talk Traveller and wargames and shit. Somewhere that he was another gamer, who liked to talk games.

I've been thinking. He can do that. Just don't use "Cessna."

Quote from: Christmas ApeHis mistake, I think, was either making it clear that it really was him or trying to actually engage Pundit in genuine conversation.

Yeah, there's definitely that.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiI've been thinking. He can do that. Just don't use "Cessna."

What about you, then? Are you going to adopt a new name, so that we don't remember your online shenanigans?

Talk about letting go...

And I have to begrudgingly agree with Pundit on one aspect.  It's not a stretch to interpret what Cessna said as an admission of regret that the policies, some of which he might have been responsible, ended up in a place he hates. You don't have to "twist" any words to come to that conclusion.

On the other hand, Grimjack has it right.  The correct thing to do would have been to leave that out there without comment.  So much better for everyone.  Sadly, I was surprised when Pundit didn't respond right away, which tells you something - then he lived down to my expectations and I remembered he didn't respond because he was on vacation.

So Pundit could be right in his reading of Cessna (so stop saying he was twsting meaning out of those words), but a complete jackass in how he handled it. The two things are not mutually exclusive.  Hell, Pundit has proved that plenty of times.

Seeing as some of the newer arrivals to the infraweb are making the mistake of engaging in a conversation with him:

Back in the olden rpg.net days Seanchai was the drama queen of the bottomfeeders, head slime of the cesspool, a "man" possessed, then as now, with infinite patience and time to engage in arguments at once petty, circular and pointless. Then as now he's been looking for nothing... except for having the last word.

And who am I not to grant it to him?

This is what Cessna said in the original thread:

QuoteIn fact, this is EXACTLY how rpg.net moderation started in 2001/2002. EXACTLY. I can dig up the threads and link to them if you like.
Be careful here. If you aren't, six years from now you'll find yourself being called "fascist" by a group of disaffected users for trying to keep a message board from being turned into a craphole, so that other people have a nice place to talk about games - only to end up with a place so bland and inane you yourself hate it.

Pundit's reply was a class act IMO :

QuoteI think this is a good warning. Just because it happened there doesn't mean it'll happen here. One of the differences is that here you have a guy at the top who is deeply and intensely commited to defending the right to speak, in particular regarding RPGs but also in general.
But that doesn't mean the warning isn't good, I'm painfully aware of the slope that this represents, and the danger of what it could lead to.

Then he post this on his blog:

QuoteBoys, what you need to see in Cessna isn't the guy who banned you, its the defector that is now acknowleging the mistakes that were made.  His presence there is a vindication of what we are trying to do with theRPGsite, and a condemnation of RPG.net as it exists right now.  The fact that their "buddy" Cessna is there might make others from RPG.net start to wonder why that would be, and come look and learn about theRPGsite for themselves, rather than gorging themselves on the tripe that has been fed to them about us

Admitting ? Come on . There are various ways to interpret Cessna's comments. Pundit chose the one that best suited his purpose of furthering his silly fued.

The original thread is here:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5583

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RAdmitting ? Come on . There are various ways to interpret Cessna's comments. Pundit chose the one that best suited his purpose of furthering his silly fued.

Could it be that others might now be reinterpreting Cessna's words for their own purposes and with their own grudges?

I mean, I have absolutely NO HISTORY WITH CESSNA.  Never knew him. Didn't post at RPGnet, and so was never modded. Don't care about it one way or the other. If it wasn't so large as to feel overwhelming, I might post there.

So how is it I had a similar interpretation?  How is it I, too, took this as a veiled admission that he regretted the policies and the enforcement thereof. With no axe to grind and no feud to further, I took the words as an admission. Is that crazy?

And, of course, we agree on Pundit's reaction - pure asshattery.

Thus my conclusion that the two are not mutually exclusive.

As to Pundit's blog - well, that's separate from TheRPGSite. I'm surprised so many people that think Pundit is a fucktard read his blog. I don't even think quite that badly of him, and I haven't read it in ages.

Quote from: James J SkachCould it be that others might now be reinterpreting Cessna’s words for their own purposes and with their own grudges?

Honestly James, I don't know? I don't see what purposes or grudges some folks would have. We have all had our encounters with the Pundit. I don't think it's that. I do think that some of us, view (rightly or wrongly)that this place is the place to talk about games. That all are welcomed here. Although there are some who have been banned from tBP, most of us still post there. I mean I occasionally post there. I've never had a run in with Cessna, but I do have a problem with the mod practices over there.

For my part I just think that politicizing Cessna's presence was a douchebag thing to do, esp after the classy manner the Pundit took Cessna's advise in the thread I linked to. It's the way how this place should function. It also was a fine example to the numerous BP lurkers that things here were not as bad as some said it was.

But I've spent enough time on this. I admit, I kinda of lost the plot there for a second. Okay back to talkin' games.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: James J SkachAs to Pundit's blog - well, that's separate from TheRPGSite. I'm surprised so many people that think Pundit is a fucktard read his blog. I don't even think quite that badly of him, and I haven't read it in ages.

What's really funny is that all these people that don't like him reading it just inflates the numbers he uses to "prove" how right he is in popular opinion. Reading his blog is a lose-lose proposition if you're an anti-Pundit type. first you suffer through something you hate, then you give him numbers he can distort for ammunition later.

The worst thing, if you really hate him, is that he'd be right. Your reading his thoughts does indicate a certain kind of popularity, though you give it grudgingly. By reading it, there is a tacit admitance that you are at least passingly interested in what it is he has to say. In the marketplace of ideas, that's power.

It's like striking against capitalism and its absorbtion of the counter-culture by shopping at Hot-Topic (a sentiment that I've always found unendingly ironic, btw).

I don't hate Pundit anymore then I subscribe to his newsletter. I used to occasionally stop by to see what he's written, but now I frequent this site. I suspect that, as much as I disagree with him, my being here is a tacit admission that I approve of the way he runs this site and that it's worth the disagreement with him on other matters.

There's a big difference between "people agree with me, you can tell by how much I'm read" and "people read me, some of them agree, but some do it out of morbid curiosity, like watching a literary Cujo on repeat."

And Pundit is not playing the cuddly popularity game. He´s playing the ugly (and a little pathetic) undergound journalist game.

That´s why reader numbers count more than approval ratings.

I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean. He says "my blog matters and people agree because a bunch of you read me." Numbers don't matter at all outside of his ego stroking, whether he wants us to hug him or start a grass roots campaign in his name.

Quote from: SettembriniAnd Pundit is not playing the cuddly popularity game. He´s playing the ugly (and a little pathetic) undergound journalist game.

That´s why reader numbers count more than approval ratings.

Is that a RPG? Because I'd seriously consider playing it.

It´s sorta like an On-Line messageboard RPG. The rules are loose, it´s GMless, but there´s always someone on to play it.

Quote from: JongWKWhat about you, then? Are you going to adopt a new name, so that we don't remember your online shenanigans?

No. Nor do I plan to leave because people say mean things to me.

Seanchai

Quote from: SettembriniIt´s sorta like an On-Line messageboard RPG. The rules are loose, it´s GMless, but there´s always someone on to play it.

Dude, could we switch to something with a less shitty premise, like World of Synnibarr? There doesn't seem to be any result in the resolution mechanics for this one that isn't 'fail'.

Quote from: RPGPunditI have said far worse things to slightly better people.

Wow, is that not something that you should be proud of.  What you're saying is that you've been EVEN MORE of an asshole than this, and some people have been classy enough to let it slide.  So now you claim that it's your right and privilege to run right up to that limit again and again, and to blame anyone who doesn't like it for not being as forebearing as the most reasonable people you've come across.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child," apparently.

Well, nobody has the right not to have their feelings hurt.

It's kinda hilarious that so many forgies are coming out for civility now.
...And it's a false civility, too. It's all "be nice to us, while we talk shit about all of you behind our gated communities".

At least if you do it here, you can say something back to them.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, nobody has the right not to have their feelings hurt.

I agree.  Now, can you draw me a clearer picture of why you think this is relevant?

For instance, is there somebody here who has said that people do have the right not to have their feelings hurt?  I've mostly just been hearing people say "Wow, Pundit's being a jerk," and similar variations.  It's totally possible to say and hear that without feeling that anyone's rights have been violated.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, nobody has the right not to have their feelings hurt.

It's kinda hilarious that so many forgies are coming out for civility now.
...And it's a false civility, too. It's all "be nice to us, while we talk shit about all of you behind our gated communities".

At least if you do it here, you can say something back to them.

Would those be the gated communities any of us can register at and post to should we wish?  Those gated communities?

Also, frankly, what the fuck do I care if people in private bitch about me and my gaming?  I mean I do in fact, but that's only because I'm a vain and shallow person, there's no rational grounds on which I should give a shit.  Leaving aside the fact I don't particularly think many people are doing that.

But hey, truth is the first casualty of war, even made up phony wars apparently.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's kinda hilarious that so many forgies are coming out for civility now.

Is it really so important to draw up divisions within the community of posters here?  Maybe I just stopped paying attention, but I thought we got over this "Go back to the Forge" shit months ago.  Anyone who isn't serious about being a member of TheRPGsite and joined only to invade your own precious gated community dropped out a long time ago.

!i!

Quote from: James J SkachI'm not sure who he is or was, I literally didn't encounter him until he posted some (IMHO awesome) stuff here. I'm not sure if he published anything I could point to, other than these papers I found at this site (http://home.comcast.net/~b.gleichman/).

Sadly that old link died due ISP change, Time Warner bought out Comcast. Which happens to me all the time. I really should buy a domain or something.

That page can now be found at http://home.roadrunner.com/~b.gleichman/

Boy, for what it´s worth: I missed you.

This is a good reaction to my post!

Well, here's my take on it.

Given: Civility is preferable to hostility. I concede.

However:

In order for it to work as a phenomenon, civility must be mutual and genuine. There is no "nice in person" and "talking shit when we think nobody will notice". This is just how it works.

In the case of Cessna, I dunno. I haven't left but one comment on that thread and it only expressed confusion as to why anyone would care whether anything anyone said makes him stay or goes. It's ultimately up to him.

Quote from: Christmas ApeEDIT: Also, this Gleichman fellow seems to talk often (in a "how I used this tidbit" sense) about a game called Age of Heroes, about which Google tells me little.

EDIT EDIT: Found an RPG.net review. Thanks, I've got enough D&D.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Especially miniature-focused D&D, called 'Age of Heroes' (which makes me think Achilles, Odysseus, et al) yet based in the same Middle Dark Iron Ages pablum every other fucking fantasy game is based in.

The rules are actually rather setting independent. But I use it for Middle Earth and thus it's normally talked about in that framework.

And it's nothing like D&D, except that it has classes but it's classes are more like Rolemaster classes except... who the heck cares.

It's a niche game for my own rpg groups that suits our play style, nothing more.

Nice to see you 'round here. If only I had something more interesting to discuss then using you as an example of someone else's hypocrisy :(

EDIT: And thanks for the update on the link.

I just think it was such a wasted chance for a site which has a rep as being full of bitter bannees' from tbp.  To have its most prominent member leave only to come here and post about games.  But instead of seizing this chance, it was too much for those involved to not continue their sniping and fucking pointless feuds.

I should have emphasised pointless.

Quote from: Abyssal MawWell, nobody has the right not to have their feelings hurt.

It's kinda hilarious that so many forgies are coming out for civility now.
...And it's a false civility, too. It's all "be nice to us, while we talk shit about all of you behind our gated communities".

At least if you do it here, you can say something back to them.

Maybe they're leaving their gated communities because they realized how crappy the people *in* those gated communities are. Maybe the HOA came down on their backs real hard because their lawn was an inch too thick, and they said "fuck that, I'm outta here!"

Quote from: James J SkachNice to see you 'round here. If only I had something more interesting to discuss then using you as an example of someone else's hypocrisy :(

EDIT: And thanks for the update on the link.

No Problem, if anything occurs you can always pop over to rec.games.frp.advocacy and ask it there.

It's sort of alive, although not anything like it once was. I think most of the people have moved on and are focusing on playing games rather then talking theory. Except for John Kim, he's turned into a Forge pod person.

Hey, Gleichman.

Quote from: gleichmanNo Problem, if anything occurs you can always pop over to rec.games.frp.advocacy and ask it there.

It's sort of alive, although not anything like it once was. I think most of the people have moved on and are focusing on playing games rather then talking theory. Except for John Kim, he's turned into a Forge pod person.

As much as I admire the work you've done and enjoy talking theory with you, I will respectfully disagree with your assessment of John Kim. I suspect he enjoys the kind of games being developed by Forgers, and I get the sense there are parts of the "theory" he finds useful (from what I've seen him post). However, I've found him to at least be trying to look at issues fairly, and not as one who drinks kool-aid.

As I said, I'm going by what I've seen here - admittedly limited exposure.

But thanks for the information.  Someone else mentioned it and I was toying with the idea of going there (rec.games.frp.advocacy) to see what's up.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Hey, Gleichman.

Hey, Doc.

Quote from: James J SkachAs I said, I'm going by what I've seen here - admittedly limited exposure.

John posts here? I had forgotten that. No, he's not downing the entire barrel of kool-aid I suppose. But he's certainly knocked back a pint or two. Very into rpgs as a political statement judging from his blog.

Unlike many however, he will point out links to those who disagree with him in a mostly neutral matter. So he deserves more respect than the typical pod person.

Quote from: BalbinusWould those be the gated communities any of us can register at and post to should we wish?  Those gated communities?

Well, to my knowledge there are, broadly seaking, three basic Forger communities. There's the Forge itself, which as you say anyone can register and post at. Then there's story-games, at which you must apply to be registered - and they do refuse applications, it's not just a spammer filter. And then there are all the blogs out there, which are sort of a loose community; I don't pretend to have done a comprehensive survey, but plenty of the blogs have moderated comments, and ban some people from posting to them. So I think it's fair to say that of the three major Forger communities, one-and-a-half or two are "gated communities."

Quote from: BalbinusAlso, frankly, what the fuck do I care if people in private bitch about me and my gaming?  I mean I do in fact, but that's only because I'm a vain and shallow person, there's no rational grounds on which I should give a shit.

Well, you're not the only vain and shallow person around here :D

Quote from: BalbinusWould those be the gated communities any of us can register at and post to should we wish?  Those gated communities?

Yes, those same ones, where we would be banned for saying about them what they say about "us".

Again, the difference is all about Caligula vs. Claudius, dude.

RPGPundit

Alright, wading through close to 5 threads may take too long timewise.
 Could someone send me a PM and briefly let me in on why Cessna stopped posting on this forum?

 Thanks in advance,

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarCould someone send me a PM and briefly let me in on why Cessna stopped posting on this forum?

RPGPundit: "Nyah-nyah! Told you so!"
Cessna: "Yeah, I thought you would.  Bye."

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaRPGPundit: "Nyah-nyah! Told you so!"
Cessna: "Yeah, I thought you would.  Bye."

!i!

Best Post In Thread.

Here is your commemorative d20 pinky ring.