Hope this is the correct forum.

What did you write?

Did you have to pay to get published? If so how much?

Traditional or self publish?

How long did it take start to finish?

Pros and cons  of your publishing journey plz.

Thanks!

If you count RPG books in this question, I'm published.

I wrote the Morningstar Campaign Setting and the Complete Guide to Fey, both for Goodman Games.

I didn't have to pay, and was paid.

Traditional, small press.

The first book took a year, the second book took 8 months of procrastination followed by two weeks of manic (I'm bipolar) writing with less than 5 hours of sleep every two days. My best day, I wrote 16,000 words. The book got better reviews than my first book, but I don't recommend it (mental illness) as a method.

Pros:

I feel good that I was able to get someone else to want to publish my work.

It got me started at writing and made me believe in my own content.  

I'm still working on game material, sometimes furiously, as well as a novel.

Cons:

I could have done a better job with the writing and self promotion.

I realized I don't work well for other people on a deadline. I'm too unreliable with my biological ups and downs, and I'm a control freak perfectionist.

As an aside, I'm a terrible collaborator, so I'm best with friends in the same boat who I can talk shop to with no strings.  

Perfect is the enemy of good for me, and that doesn't work when other people are relying on you.

Thank you for your reply! It 's good to know there are some publishers out there who recognize the value of the writer. Did they do the "nasty" stuff for free also: editing, format, cover design and illustration,  etc... It would go without saying then that they provided distribution and advertising, yes?

I realize that with printing on demand, ebooks, emagazines and people just opening their own websites to sell their books that most of the publishing industry is under pressure. Do you know of any publishers (of S&S) that would provide these services free or at a reduced charge; or perhaps pay later out of the profits when the book sells) type of thing? Just wondering.

Seems to me writers bust their butts creating stories and then along comes the publisher saying: "Yes, we'll publish you- for 75% of your profits." Don't they need us as much as we need them?

Of course they handled all of the editing, layout, and art.

As for the rest, if you pay for all of that out of your own pocket, you'd realize the publisher isn't cheating you. If you try to do it yourself, you run the risk of embarrassing yourself (just like most people are not writers, most are not artists), but have the chance to save money there. Then you have the priveledge of marketing, negotiating with printers, and distribution. Of course, even if you do all of that, you should still hire an editor- we can't find our own mistakes.

Or you can do what I'm doing; start a blog and make things like free pdfs. The bar is lower for doing your own art, etc.

If you can do it all yourself, you may have a point, but if you need help with any of the above, the traditional model is fair. The publisher takes all the risk.

And no, I don't know anyone who would give away their work for free while someone else profits. Would you?

You make valid points and I yield to all of them.
 Do you happen to know what percentage of the actual profit goes to the writer?

Of course established writers get more.

I have seen "publishing packages" that cost all the way up to $1800 and more. In your opinion, is this a fair price for services offered?

Sorry if I'm asking you questions that you don't really know the answer to, but you are the only one who graced me with a reply.

Payment depends on the contract. It really depends.

As for "publishing packages", I'd avoid them if you want to self publish. Hire your own people.

Aside from self-publishing, money should always go towards the author, not away from the author. The rest is masturbation. And with self-publishing, you're only buying services you can't perform. Packages don't usually take what you *can* do yourself into account.

A lot of the answers to your questions can be found online.

Finally, if someone believed your product would sell, they'd pay you for it, not ask you to buy a publishing package. A lot of being a real writer is accepting your lot, recognizing your current level, and working on improving it. Buying your way in is a way to lose a lot of money, unless you actually happen to be good, as well as lucky. In other words, I recommend trying to get published traditionally before self-publishing.

Quote from: Monger;826018What did you write?

• Merrie England:Age of Eleanor for Alephtar Games
• Merrie England:Age of Chivalry for Alephtar Games
• Co-Author of The Birchbark Chronicles for Firebird
• Co-Author of Wind on the Steppe for Alephtar Games
• Land of Ice and Stone for Mongoose Publishing

Quote from: Monger;826018Did you have to pay to get published? If so how much?

No, I wrote for other companies, so get a small commission.

Quote from: Monger;826018Traditional or self publish?

Traditional.

Quote from: Monger;826018How long did it take start to finish?

It varies, as I tend to write it first, then submit to a publisher, rather than the other way around.

They normally take at least 6 months to write, then another 6 months for the publisher to turn it into a book. However, Merrie England:Age of Chivalry took over a year to write and Wind on the Steppes took over a year to be published.

Quote from: Monger;826018Pros and cons  of your publishing journey plz.

Pros:

• I write what I want and then send it to a publisher, so I only write what I enjoy
• The publisher takes care of proofreading, editing, layout and artwork
• The publisher sources and prints the book
• I can work at my own pace and fit it around my normal life

Cons:

• The publisher is in charge of everything else, so I have no control over timelines or the cost of the supplement
• Sometimes, I don't hear back from publishers for months, so I sit back and assume things are going well
• Publishers are not always interested in something that I have spent a year writing
• I cannot retire on the back of writing RPG supplements

Quote from: Monger;826218Thank you for your reply! It 's good to know there are some publishers out there who recognize the value of the writer. Did they do the "nasty" stuff for free also: editing, format, cover design and illustration,  etc... It would go without saying then that they provided distribution and advertising, yes?

In my experience, yes, the publishers did all that.

I contribute by posting on forums, but that is a minor part of the work.

Quote from: Monger;826218I realize that with printing on demand, ebooks, emagazines and people just opening their own websites to sell their books that most of the publishing industry is under pressure. Do you know of any publishers (of S&S) that would provide these services free or at a reduced charge; or perhaps pay later out of the profits when the book sells) type of thing? Just wondering.

For RPG Supplements, publishers normally pay out of the profits, but sometimes pay up front. It depends on the deal and is normally confidential.

Quote from: Monger;826218Seems to me writers bust their butts creating stories and then along comes the publisher saying: "Yes, we'll publish you- for 75% of your profits." Don't they need us as much as we need them?

Not really.

Writers write a supplement and then hand it over. The publisher then edits it, formats it, sources the artwork, gets it printed, provides distribution, advertising and so on. That is a lot of work to do. Would I prefer to do it myself? No, that's why I work with publishers.

Quote from: Monger;826376You make valid points and I yield to all of them.

I didn't know that this was an argument. Why yield to answers to a question?

Quote from: Monger;826376Do you happen to know what percentage of the actual profit goes to the writer?

It all depends on the agreement and by publisher, most are confidential.

Quote from: Monger;826218Of course established writers get more.

Probably, I wouldn't know - I do not know what other authors get.

Quote from: Monger;826218I have seen "publishing packages" that cost all the way up to $1800 and more. In your opinion, is this a fair price for services offered?

It depends.

Are these publishing packages just to get work submitted? In which case, they seem very expensive, especially for RPG books, which tend to be very low yield.

Are they the whole package, providing artwork, editing, layout and printing? If so, they look better, but you have to work out how many book you are expecting to sell, to see if it is worthwhile.

Quote from: Monger;826218Sorry if I'm asking you questions that you don't really know the answer to, but you are the only one who graced me with a reply.

I only saw the topic today.

Thanks for joining us, soltakss. I was starting to feel on the spot.

Also, sorry if my tone seemed rigid, above. I've been tired recently, working on my current project. I was probably a bit curt, despite how much text is there.

As soltakss said, a lot of the answers to your questions vary, or are confidential parts of a deal. I got paid very differently for each of my books, and had different amounts of control.

I might have phrased it poorly, but I do think that before launching a self-publishing career, it might be smart to get published traditionally, first. This will give you a possible audience, and prove to new people that you're not "just some guy who thought he could write". It's perception and instills confidence. In addition, it will tell you that others see value in what you're putting down.

I rebelled against this in the beginning, but there's an old saying- your first million words are crap. It can hurt your career if you shovel this first million words out to the public, and they pay for it. Better to get those words out in private, and then take the good stuff from there before you get published.

I was near the end of that million words with my first book, and it's been an uphill battle ever since.

This is all in my humble opinion, of course. I am a gamer, and in my experience a lot of gamers speak with an artificial sense of authority, perhaps thinking that no one would listen otherwise.

Anyone who expects you to pay them to publish your work is ripping you off.

I wrote and self-published an RPG called Other Worlds, it was my first game and it took me 4 years to finish it (which isn't the same as saying it had 4 years of work in it).

Self-publishing meant I had complete control over the content, the presentation, the publishing strategy, the deadlines, and the finances. I hired my own artist, hired my own editor, and hired my own layout designer. Every decision that was made was mine, every decision that will ever be made about it will be mine. Whenever I wanted to I could make a second edition, add some new content, or pull it from sale altogether. Or, as I intend to do, I could just keep it available exactly as it is until the heat death of the universe.

The con is the finances. Everything I did above cost money, and (prior to kickstarter) you had to kick it in upfront. Everyone tells you to do things guerilla style - do your own editing, do your own graphic design, find free art. I thought 'fuck that' and spent proper money making a book I could be proud of. The gamble paid off - I got good reviews, made a decent profit, and it is an electrum best seller on drivethruRPG which means it is in the top 3 or 4 % of their products (this is a much lower hurdle than you might think).

For all that though I spent very little time on promotion, I've never had any freelance credits, and no-one had ever heard of me before or has particularly heard of me since. So, with a good idea and a lot of work, and maybe a bit of luck as well, it can be done.

I'm thinkin' the same way- If a publisher makes you pay for a "package" then there is zero risk on their part. Make sense?
I talked to the "big" publisher whom I won't name by name (Nelson) and they offered me .18 cents on the dollar IF they deemed my book worthy. It was the final straw! I worked 3 years off and on on a full length "helps" book. Some weeks I was so tired I couldn't keep my eyes open for 5 minutes to work on it! I asked them if they could defer costs until after publishing, believing "they need authors" as much as we need them. I guess I was wrong. Apparently publishing companies hold all the cards and don't need authors to make money at all!
They are always looking for the next mega-seller to make them millions on one book and in doing so turning down 90% of all new authors who can't simply can't afford $1500 for a package. Then they want to keep 70%! Balls!

I would guess there are a couple of ways I could go:
1. Amazon: direct download to the buyer but I think Amazon sticks a gun in your ribs also. I believe they want 50-60 % of your profits too.
2. My own website. I keep 100% of profits and pay an unknown but talented illustrator to draw for each of my stories. I heard buyers are reluctant to  purchase without pictures to see. But as was mentioned earlier, I then run the risk of embarrassing myself with bad grammar (though I have Spellcheck).

Are there any traditional publishers out there who value the writer enough to postpone payment or simply take payments??

It's extremely frustrating!

I regret bothering to answer now. You're not talking about RPGs at all are you?