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The Lounge => Media and Inspiration => Topic started by: jrients on December 11, 2006, 03:07:47 pm

Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: jrients on December 11, 2006, 03:07:47 pm
Dear Mr. McMurray,

Some days I suspect that you are engaged in a personal crusade against RPG Pundit.  It's like every time I read a post by Pundit there you are with some one-liner barb that seems to have little to do with the topic at hand.  We all got the memo that the Pundit is a jerk.  You don't have to remind us of that at every opportunity.  Your apparent need to constantly beat this drum is dragging down the level of discourse and undermining your own credibility.  The latter part is the real shame of the situation, as you have some cool stuff to say when you aren't tossing harpoons at your personal white whale.

I really hope you take the letter as the beginning of a friendly attempt to work this situation out.

Sincerely,

Jeff

PS: Pundit has flipped your account from 'regular user' to 'jack ass', which is an actual status on the site software.  Apparently this cripples your ability to edit posts and otherwise take back things you say.  So if you see some screwing functionality problems, that's why.  Feel free to take this up with him in Private Messages or on the Help Desk, as I had no part in making that call.  Personally, I would have preferred he had waited until after I wrote this to do anything.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 11, 2006, 03:16:12 pm
Consider him flipped back now.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 11, 2006, 03:51:12 pm
I was wondering why I had no PMs.

My last several posts to Pundit have all been in direct response to posts he makes to and about me. I've moved things not directly related to his posts to PMs, and had done so before this thread was created.

In the posts that I felt forced to reply to he makes false claims about my posting habits, my gaming habits, and my motivations. If telling someone they're wrong makes me a jackass, please flip me back.

edit: I'll also point out that, unlike Pundit to me, I have never said anything untrue about him. As I told him in one of the PMs, if he'll stop making shit up about me I'll stop telling him his shit is made up. Other than that I'd already stopped posting to him other than in direct reply to topics and posts about me.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: jrients on December 11, 2006, 04:27:13 pm
Okay, fine.  Then howzabout we formally declare a truce?  Pundit, you publicly commit to stop talking smack about James.  James, you do the same.  First one to blow it loses face.

Deal?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: jrients on December 11, 2006, 05:13:43 pm
Pundit doesn't want to come on this thread because he wants to avoid another flare-up.  But he has assured me that he is willing to make a new attempt to get along.  James, I would really appreciate it if you would give me the same assurances.  If you do, I will consider the present matter closed.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: droog on December 11, 2006, 05:19:29 pm
Aaaaaawwwwwww....
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: rcsample on December 11, 2006, 05:35:55 pm
Quote from: droog
Aaaaaawwwwwww....



Can we have a group hug now?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: David R on December 11, 2006, 06:32:07 pm
Who says we push each others comfort zones? This is the forum where flame warriors go to find ...sniff... sniff ...some comfort :bawling:

Regards,
David R
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Spike on December 11, 2006, 07:13:32 pm
Damn...

I was hoping to lock those two into a thread and let them REALLY go at it too...:(
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Knightsky on December 11, 2006, 07:59:37 pm
Quote from: rcsample
Can we have a group hug now?
Only if you promise not to try to cop a feel this time.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 11, 2006, 10:05:59 pm
Quote from: jrients
Pundit doesn't want to come on this thread because he wants to avoid another flare-up.  But he has assured me that he is willing to make a new attempt to get along.  James, I would really appreciate it if you would give me the same assurances.  If you do, I will consider the present matter closed.


Already did, but consider this the formal declaration. I'll keep my claws out of his ass if he'll stay away from my litter box. :)
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: JongWK on December 12, 2006, 07:39:42 am
Group hug!

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

;)
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: jrients on December 12, 2006, 09:30:56 am
Quote from: James McMurray
Already did, but consider this the formal declaration. I'll keep my claws out of his ass if he'll stay away from my litter box. :)


Thank you so much for making your intentions plain.  I'm glad we could work this out.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 13, 2006, 07:16:28 am
Quote from: James McMurray
Already did, but consider this the formal declaration. I'll keep my claws out of his ass if he'll stay away from my litter box. :)


Time: 12-11-2006 11:05PM till 12-12-2006 11:48PM (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=54414&postcount=23). 24 hrs and 43 minutes.

Well, at least he lasted over a day; unless you count this one (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=54341&postcount=19), where he insinuatingly accuses me of not having read the books I'm commenting on, instead. In that case, he lasted only 21 hours.
I was willing to give that one the benefit of the doubt, but it certainly seems that James simply cannot resist trying to prove he's the big man around me.

Measures will be taken shortly.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 09:49:54 am
Really. Do you truly think, given my posting history for the last day (including some agreements and disagreements with you) that I'm somehow on the attack against you?

Do you not see where if someone mentions a game and you immediately lash out at that game, they're going to want to defend that game? My posts would have been exactly the same no matter who it was that jumped on a game I like, said it was nothing but a joke, and then created an entire thread just for the purpose of making sure everyone knows it's not a "real game."

Take whatever measure you feel are necessary. It's not like I can stop you. But I will say you're overreacting.

edit: cleaned up the wording a bit. The accusation that I'm still trying to compete with Pundit got me a bit hot under the collar at first, and I've removed the results of that.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 13, 2006, 10:22:47 am
James, you seem to have some very heavy issues with me, whether its due to my "authority" over this board (though one would have to wonder, what authority have I exerted so far?), serious authority issues in general, an "alpha male-beta challenger" thing, or something about my ideology you don't like, or maybe you just saw an internet forum where people are free to slag the admin without reprecussion and decided that somehow that meant that it was your sacred duty in particular to slag the admin as often as possible.  I don't know. But the point is this isn't healthy to the board.  Perhaps you'd like to have me on your ignore list?

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 10:31:38 am
Again, you're overreacting. If you look at my actual posts you'll see that I agree with you at times, disagree with you at times, and generally post without regard to you at all.

Really, I asked you at one point to make a count of my posts and how many bagged on you. Do it. I think you'll be surprised. Heck, do it just on the posts since we declared a truce. You'll find that my only attack on you (the nonsense statement) came after you effectively said that a game I really like isn't a real game. Hell, you even started an entire thread to attack the game. Are you sure its me that has it out for you?

Honestly, why start a thread in response to my post, attacking a game I'd said I liked. Is that not a violation of a truce? If I were to start a thread saying that amber or Forward... To Adventure aren't real games you would certainly say that I had broken my end of the deal.

There was certainly a spike in their frequency in the last two days (prior to the truce), and I both admitted to that and explained it. But in general, you're just another poster. You're a lot more prolific then everyone else, and tend to be a lot more acerbic and offensive then most as well. And, when you attack the things I care about, in direct reponse to my posts, and creating completely new threads for that sole purpose, does it really surprise you that I defend them?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 11:08:18 am
I'll also point out that I've been ruder to Dominus Nox in the last day then I have with you. It's not proof, but I think it's evidence that I'm not out to "prove myself over the other alpha males" or something similar. He said something worthy of ridicule and he got it (he likened people that don't like smoking to Nazis). However, since Nox is everyone's whipping boy, my treatment of him doesn't even get a second glance.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 13, 2006, 11:16:49 am
No, if you'd just attacked a game I liked, that would not have been an issue.

If you'd done it while saying "The RPGPundit is ignorant, he never read the rulebooks he's talking about, he isn't able to be "sensical" and he's a liar", then that's where the problems come in.

I mean seriously, do you perhaps not even understand what it is that's the nature of the problem here?
I mean, do you get, fundamentally, what's the difference between how you're "arguing" with me and how, say, John Kim is arguing with me?

Because I'm really starting to get the sense that you don't see how that's different...

Also, I'm not going to go over 888 posts to give you the exact percentage. Its enough to note that your every fucking interaction with me has you engaging in ad hominem attacks, and that you seem to dedicate a SPECTACULAR amount of your time on here to responding to me.  Even in posts directed at others, you end up "warning" them about me. I mean, your level of obsession seems to be about on par with Nox's level of obsession about Steve Jackson, and that's a thing of wonder.

So I think that sadly, at this point the best answer would be to help remove the source of temptation for you.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 11:26:54 am
Did I say you were ignorant? No.

Did I say you'd never read the rulebooks? No. I asked if you had, because your account of the games being almost identical didn't jibe with my experiences of the two. But that's already being discussed elsewhere.

I haven't read John Kims arguments with you. But I do know that the tact I take with you is much more friendly in tone then the tact you take with others. Vastly more in many cases.

Quote
Its enough to note that your every fucking interaction with me has you engaging in ad hominem attacks


This is completely untrue. Just look around, honestly, and with eyes not blinded by your misconception of my goals. I'm agreeing with you left and right. Asking questions about your game because it interests me, and generally just enjoying myself on these boards. I've said exactly one thing harsh to you (the nonsense statement). I also asked a question that you took as an attack but which wasn't.

Those were in response to you going out of your way to ridicule a game that I mentioned in a post that had absolutely nothing to do with you.

Other than that one post, how have I been so horrible this last day?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 11:38:59 am
Here's another question for you: why start a thread to proclaim Hackmaster as nothing but a joke? I was the only one who had mentioned the game in more than just passing for a month, and not in any relation to you until you specifically mentioned it and I replied.

Is it really me who has some sort of compulsion here?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 13, 2006, 01:33:37 pm
Quote from: James McMurray
Here's another question for you: why start a thread to proclaim Hackmaster as nothing but a joke? I was the only one who had mentioned the game in more than just passing for a month, and not in any relation to you until you specifically mentioned it and I replied.

Is it really me who has some sort of compulsion here?


That wasn't what the thread was about; it was about people who interpreted Hackmaster as something serious and tried to claim it was NOT a joke; there's a difference.

And that's all still irrelevant. None of it was a personal attack on you, shit, it wasn't even an attack on Hackmaster.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 02:17:27 pm
Ok. I saw it differently. We do that a lot it seems. I tend to think that calling someone's game a joke and saying it can't be used seriously is an attack on that game. You disagree.

You don't think it odd that I say people sometimes play serious games in Hackmaster and you immediately start a thread whose sole purpose is to proclaim that Hackmaster is a joke, and not even a real game in its own right?

Ok, perhaps you don't. But I certainly did, as would I think most people in my shoes.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 13, 2006, 03:04:32 pm
Quote from: James McMurray
Ok. I saw it differently. We do that a lot it seems. I tend to think that calling someone's game a joke and saying it can't be used seriously is an attack on that game. You disagree.

You don't think it odd that I say people sometimes play serious games in Hackmaster and you immediately start a thread whose sole purpose is to proclaim that Hackmaster is a joke, and not even a real game in its own right?

Ok, perhaps you don't. But I certainly did, as would I think most people in my shoes.

Yes, maybe its a total failure on your part to intepret me, and you think I'm somehow "gunning" for you.
Maybe its even true that I am failing to interpret you, and you're really not trying to seriously attack me, you're just really bad at communicating your tone in your posts...

But you know, the fact is we have a problem of communication.
And the fact is also true that, unfortunately for you, I'm the Admin and you aren't.  I don't say this to lord it over you, i say it to mean that its not realistic for me to either put you on ignore or just let this disruption of the site pass, its part of my responsibilities.

Since my repeated requests that you tone it down fell on deaf ears (either intentionally or through no fault of your own), and since you cannot seem to willingly follow my suggestion that you simply STOP responding to my posts since you can't seem to help doing so in a belligerent way, it falls to me as the Admin to do something about all this.

Its unfortunate, but that's life.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 03:06:50 pm
Ummm.... Ok. Again, you're not actually reading what I'm writing I think. But like I said, take whatever measures you must. It's not like I can stop you.

And to everyone watching, if this means I'm banned ya'll keep having fun here. I know I did. :)
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 03:24:23 pm
Also, if I may, I'd like to make one (parting?) request before whatever hammer drops on me. Since it's obvious that my way of phrasing myself is taken as insulting by you, can you point out to me in my posts since the truce exactly what I've said that you take as an insult?

I know there's the nonsense comment, and I admitted that was an insult. I reacted poorly to what I viewed as nonsensivcal statements.

There's also the question about whether you had actually read the books. It was not intended as an insult, as the comment I responded to really is a common misconception amongst people that have never read the books. I suppose I can see how it would be taken as one, although I'd never interpret it as such.

Wher else has there been where I've inadvertently insulted you?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: HinterWelt on December 13, 2006, 03:59:09 pm
O.k. I can't take it anymore. This sure sounds like rule 2 to me. I just never thought I would see it enforced here.
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=90683

Personally, I haven't found anything James said all that offensive. If anything, Pundit is far more offensive than any poster (including Nox) on this site.

I find it interesting that the first implementation of Rule 2 is not in defense of someone like Nox but in defense of Pundit.

I somehow think I just made it on a list somewhere. :)

Bill
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 04:03:53 pm
Thanks for the link. I'd never actually seen those rules, although it seems to me like Rule 2 is nonexistent here, as is Guideline #1.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: HinterWelt on December 13, 2006, 04:10:37 pm
Quote from: James McMurray
Thanks for the link. I'd never actually seen those rules, although it seems to me like Rule 2 is nonexistent here, as is Guideline #1.

Well. it depends. You may be the first person to experince the "No personal attacks" aspect of rule 2.

Obviously, you said something that got under pundit's skin.

Bill
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 04:14:06 pm
To be fair, I said a lot of things that got under Pundit's skin. We had a blowout, declared a truce, and then I learned that I was again saying a lot of things that got under Pundit's skin, although only one was intentional. I'm still hoping I'll get an explanation about what the others actually were, since only two things I've said have been pointed to.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: fonkaygarry on December 13, 2006, 04:18:42 pm
Just do your Thunderdome thread, IL each other and be done with it.  I don't see this vendetta as much of an issue, myself.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 04:19:52 pm
IL?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: HinterWelt on December 13, 2006, 04:22:03 pm
Quote from: James McMurray
To be fair, I said a lot of things that got under Pundit's skin. We had a blowout, declared a truce, and then I learned that I was again saying a lot of things that got under Pundit's skin, although only one was intentional. I'm still hoping I'll get an explanation about what the others actually were, since only two things I've said have been pointed to.

Well, I guess the point I was trying to make was that this site has always been pushed as a no moderator/defend yourself kind of place. It strikes me as hypocritical that someone would be officially censured for personal attacks.

Again, I am not your chronicler. You may be utterly unreasonable with pundit. Have you gone into stalker mode? The threads I have seen don't seem to indicate it. I just skim over that kind of stuff and get to the meat of a thread I am interested in.

And in the end, it takes two to tango. The whole competition thread has a lot of noise in it but was an interesting thread anyway. I have a personal interest since I have written some competition games with the hope of pulling in board gamers. Still, it just struck me as two posters on a side topic. Meh.

Bill
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: fonkaygarry on December 13, 2006, 04:22:03 pm
Ignore List.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Blackleaf on December 13, 2006, 04:22:56 pm
Internet Love.

Edit:  Thanks fonkaygarry I thought you were saying something else. :)
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 04:25:56 pm
HinterWelt: I don't think I've ever stalked him. He thought I was for a while. Then we called a truce, and what you've seen in the competition and Hackmaster thread is pretty much it as far as conflict between us. I've even agreed with some stuff he's had to say in other threads, and tried to help him pick a game to play after his Shriner meetings are done. (They may not be Shriners, but are Masons of some sort).

Fonkaygarry: Ah. Pundit has said he won't put me on his ignore list. He's also said that I'm intentionally trying to destabilize his website and that's why he can't just ignore me.

I haven't put him on my ignore list because as I said, I've agreed with him at times. That and he's been a very helpful resource for my current Amber inquisitiveness.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: David R on December 13, 2006, 04:28:39 pm
Quote from: RPGPundit
Measures will be taken shortly.

RPGPundit


What the fuck does this mean ?

Regards,
David R
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: fonkaygarry on December 13, 2006, 04:30:14 pm
Quote from: Stuart
Internet Love.

Great, now I have a mental image of Pundit and JMM rubbing each other down with baby oil as "Push it to the Limit" plays in the background.

WELCOME!  TO THE LIMIT!

LIMIT!

BTW: If this goes to banning, it'll be a fucking mess.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 04:44:31 pm
I don't know if it'll go to banning or not. Just prior to our last truce he had the system label me a "jackass." Oddly enough it also highlighted my name as if I were a mod. :D

He's threatened before that "you'll find yourself becoming a pretty, pretty girl." I'm hoping that's a reference to another board category he can lump me into, but asked him to keep me out of any sick fantasies he may have just in case. :eek:
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: rcsample on December 13, 2006, 04:53:23 pm
THUNDERDOME!!!!  
THUNDERDOME!!!!  
THUNDERDOME!!!!  
THUNDERDOME!!!!  
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: rcsample on December 13, 2006, 04:57:05 pm
Quote from: David R
What the fuck does this mean ?

Originally Posted by RPGPundit
Measures will be taken shortly.

RPGPundit


I believe they are measuring the size of each others....



arguments....
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: David R on December 13, 2006, 04:57:29 pm
Or maybe it's a "Bring out the Gimp" situation :eek:

Regards,
David R
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: SunBoy on December 13, 2006, 05:33:54 pm
Uh, mates, why not go on a "Pistols at Dawn" thread? You could do a You mama so fat kinda thing... Come on, it would be fun. The Pundit is stupid. No! Jimmy's stupider! Wouldn't that be nice?
And yeah, I agree with tht if it comes to banning, it will be a nasty precedent. For everybody.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: One Horse Town on December 13, 2006, 06:03:15 pm
Why do people who dish it have trouble taking it?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Spike on December 13, 2006, 06:17:51 pm
I just want to go on record as being the FIRST to call for a serious Pistols/thunderdome style showdown.  And Then I'll just add my voices to the throngs calling for it.

Entertain me, Motherfucker!


that said. James, going into the pundit's 'personal' forum and commenting about 'wow, more pundit stuff' is rather...er... stalkerish. I mean, it's not like that part of the forum isn't clearly labled as "pundit's turf".   This of course, has led to that.

Pundit: vague mutterings of 'measures being taken' are rather... er... bullying or some such.  Either let it go or DO something. Don't threaten with vague 'something' for days on end.  Banning, of course, would be the end of the dream. But it's your dream, not mine... I've just been 'basking in the freedom'...

Now, get thy passive agressive behinds into the thunderdome. Two men enter, one man leaves.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Kyle Aaron on December 13, 2006, 06:59:40 pm
James McMurray, ease off, for fuck's sakes. Come here to talk about games. This is not thefuckupthatbitchRPGPunditsite, it's therpgsite. Focus, James-san, focus!

RPGPundit, don't be a wuss. You say extreme and ridiculous things to get a reaction, and sometimes, you get a reaction. Surprise, surprise. That's the internet persona you've chosen for yourself, Fighting The Power - so you're naturally going to attract other people with similar internet personas, who also want to Fight The Power.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: jrients on December 13, 2006, 07:14:23 pm
The fact of the matter is that I had already pidgeon-holed you as "Pundit' personal bugaboo" before he complained to me that you wouldn't get off his back.  That's not a good sign, dude.  I can seriously count on one hand the number of posters around here that I don't have a neutral or better opinion of.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 13, 2006, 07:24:38 pm
Quote from: Spike
that said. James, going into the pundit's 'personal' forum and commenting about 'wow, more pundit stuff' is rather...er... stalkerish. I mean, it's not like that part of the forum isn't clearly labled as "pundit's turf". This of course, has led to that.


True. I specifically haven't posted in there since the truce, or if I have (I post all over the place) I know I haven't been negative ro insulting.

Quote from: JimBobOz
James McMurray, ease off, for fuck's sakes. Come here to talk about games. This is not thefuckupthatbitchRPGPunditsite, it's therpgsite. Focus, James-san, focus!


The thing is, I thought I had eased off. I'm still hopinh Pundit will explain which parts of which posts were insulting beyond the two we've already discussed.

Quote from: jrients
The fact of the matter is that I had already pidgeon-holed you as "Pundit' personal bugaboo" before he complained to me that you wouldn't get off his back. That's not a good sign, dude. I can seriously count on one hand the number of posters around here that I don't have a neutral or better opinion of.


Have you been reading my posts since the truce? Do you think I've gone overboard anywhere (or even near the railing)? If so, please tell me where.

edit: added names to the quotes for clarity (and people like me who sometimes scan for their names).
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: David R on December 13, 2006, 07:30:21 pm
I thought this site was all about encouraging your bette noires :D

Regards,
David R
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: King of Old School on December 13, 2006, 09:05:25 pm
This discussion is stupid.

Obviously JM can contribute something other than anti-Pundit rancor -- both jrients and Pundit have admitted as such.  Threatening to ban or neuter him, then, smacks of the rankest form of hypocrisy and double-speak.  Particularly if the last comments of which Pundit complains ("have you read the books or played the game?") are the kind of "attacks" that are threatening to drag the board into the quagmire...

KoOS
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 13, 2006, 11:11:04 pm
Quote from: Spike

that said. James, going into the pundit's 'personal' forum and commenting about 'wow, more pundit stuff' is rather...er... stalkerish. I mean, it's not like that part of the forum isn't clearly labled as "pundit's turf".   This of course, has led to that.

Pundit: vague mutterings of 'measures being taken' are rather... er... bullying or some such.  Either let it go or DO something. Don't threaten with vague 'something' for days on end.  Banning, of course, would be the end of the dream. But it's your dream, not mine... I've just been 'basking in the freedom'...

Now, get thy passive agressive behinds into the thunderdome. Two men enter, one man leaves.



The delay wasn't an attempt to be ominous, it was something that happened due to discussion between me and the other Admins, and trying to figure out if we were technologically able to do what I really wanted done.

The current measure which has been implemented is that rather than do anything at all to stop James from writing, I have put myself on his ignore list.  I couldn't put him on mine, because of the practical reality of being the Admin here meaning I have to read the posts.
Instead, at least for the time being, he can't read my posts.

The thing is, I agree that he's a useful poster. When its not about me, he's been very productive and useful to this site. I don't want him to leave it. But because he can't help but make sniper shots at me whenever it strikes him to, I think it might be better for him to just not see me anymore, and stick to doing other, more useful things with his time here.

The alternative was to censor what he said, and I didn't really want to do that, unless this kind of crazyness continues. I think that this alternative is better; maybe after a while I can undo this too, and things will calm down. I hope so.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 13, 2006, 11:12:49 pm
Quote from: JimBobOz
James McMurray, ease off, for fuck's sakes. Come here to talk about games. This is not thefuckupthatbitchRPGPunditsite, it's therpgsite. Focus, James-san, focus!

RPGPundit, don't be a wuss. You say extreme and ridiculous things to get a reaction, and sometimes, you get a reaction. Surprise, surprise. That's the internet persona you've chosen for yourself, Fighting The Power - so you're naturally going to attract other people with similar internet personas, who also want to Fight The Power.


I agree with this, and I agree that it "takes two to tango".  But the reality is that this was getting too disruptive (how many threads got derailed by this?), and this is a needed break for both of us.

The unfortunate truth is that Im adminning the site, he's not, so the sanctions have to be taken by me toward him.  As it is, I tried to pick the one that would do the absolute least to stop his participation on this site in a productive way, and that wouldn't actually abrogate on his freedom of speech.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 13, 2006, 11:14:56 pm
Quote from: jrients
The fact of the matter is that I had already pidgeon-holed you as "Pundit' personal bugaboo" before he complained to me that you wouldn't get off his back.  That's not a good sign, dude.  I can seriously count on one hand the number of posters around here that I don't have a neutral or better opinion of.


That, and the responses I got on my blog entry about this, confirmed to me that it wasn't just my own perception of things, and made me feel more at ease about doing something about this. I'm still not happy that it had to come to that.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 14, 2006, 01:14:23 am
Odd. I can't see any of Pundit's newest posts. The new indicator and front page of the various subforums says they're there but when I go to look at them they aren't there. For instance, this thread has an entire page 6 I can't see, presumably because it's Pundit-only.

Is this the "measures" that were taken or just the board acting funky?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Settembrini on December 14, 2006, 01:45:51 am
I can read your posts.
I assume you are "ignoring" Pundit, seems to be the "measure" that was talked about.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Kyle Aaron on December 14, 2006, 01:46:33 am
James McMurray, they've used a board function where you've got him on ignore - whether you like it or not.
Quote from: RPGPundit
The delay wasn't an attempt to be ominous, it was something that happened due to discussion between me and the other Admins, and trying to figure out if we were technologically able to do what I really wanted done.

The current measure which has been implemented is that rather than do anything at all to stop James from writing, I have put myself on his ignore list. I couldn't put him on mine, because of the practical reality of being the Admin here meaning I have to read the posts.

Instead, at least for the time being, he can't read my posts.

The thing is, I agree that he's a useful poster. When its not about me, he's been very productive and useful to this site. I don't want him to leave it. But because he can't help but make sniper shots at me whenever it strikes him to, I think it might be better for him to just not see me anymore, and stick to doing other, more useful things with his time here.

The alternative was to censor what he said, and I didn't really want to do that, unless this kind of crazyness continues. I think that this alternative is better; maybe after a while I can undo this too, and things will calm down. I hope so.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 14, 2006, 09:14:48 am
Ah. I'd think the optimal sequence would be to inform and then implement this sort of thing. :)

Ah well. I tried to get him to explain exactly how I was breaking our truce in my posts. If he didn't want to or couldn't do that I can't make him.

He also seems to have a blind spot in regards to me, as I've been a useful poster when it does involve him as well.

Ah well. Such are the vagaries of internet forums. :)
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: rcsample on December 14, 2006, 10:42:45 am
Quote from: King of Old School
This discussion is stupid.



Welcome to the Internet!
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 14, 2006, 02:06:25 pm
Some of you have e-mailed me regarding this issue and decision, and I'm not looking to be the authoritarian mod here.  I would appreciate knowing from more of you, right here on this thread, if you feel this is a good way to deal with these kinds of problems when they come up, if you think something else should be done, etc.

I was having a good conversation in PM with David R; which led me to conclude that one of the things that wasn't dealt with well in this situation is that there was not enough community policing, as it were.  Jrients started this thread, which is good, but basically I think that before that James had the idea in his head that it was only me who was pissed off about the way he was doing things, or me and my "allies" (whatever the fuck that means).

That tells me that not enough of you guys were writing to say that this was stupid behaviour.  As in, I know now from PMs and from my blog entry and from here, that a lot of you found this whole situation very annoying, and yet there wasn't any commentary.  Had there been, not to slag James but to let him know that it was disrupting the chat, I'd like to think that he might have realized it was bothering other people than just his "intended target", and he might have changed things for real before sanctions had to take place.

Then again, maybe he wouldn't have.  In the end, I'm not very upset about the decision I took in and of itself; I am bothered that I had to get to the point where I had to do so; and I'd love it if everyone saw it as "their business", not to report on people or slam people, but to express to people when they feel that something is being intentionally off-topic or disruptive or harmful to the forum.

I know this might be difficult for some, having come from boards where the official policy is "leave it to the mods, don't try to act like you're a mod because you're not, the mods are special snowflakes who's beauty you could never even dare to lay eyes on"; but around here, my goal is to NOT have to show anyone my "special beauty" (none of you are my type) and I'd rather see rational people communicating with other rational people, or verbally chastising and expressing collective annoyance with irrational people; instead of waiting for an Admin to do something about it.

I figure the other Admin guys here feel the same way.

Don't make us whip out our "special beauties", guys...

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 14, 2006, 02:21:33 pm
Lots of chatter here, very little of it I can see. Anything I should be interested in?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 14, 2006, 02:30:02 pm
It was brought to my attention that there was a question about whether I'd have chilled out sooner if people had let me know it was bothering them. I'd like to point out two things in regards to that:

1) When Stuart mentioned his annoyance at the derailing of his competitve play thread by me and Pundit's discussion of Hackmaster I apologized and immediately tried to get that thread back on topic.

2) When all this first came to a head I told Pundit several times that I was poking fun at him for my own enjoyment and that I'd continued in public because I'd gotten a few PMs from people who were also enjoying it. I didn't get a single PM from anyone but Pundit saying it wasn't appreciated. If I had, I'd have stopped immediately.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled whatever it is you're talking about. :)
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: rcsample on December 14, 2006, 02:44:51 pm
Quote from: James McMurray
I didn't get a single PM from anyone but Pundit saying it wasn't appreciated. If I had, I'd have stopped immediately.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled whatever it is you're talking about. :)



My only WTF moment regarding a comment you made was on the topic "The Green Ronin Ultra-Secret Moderators " in RPGPundit's Own Forum.  It didn't make sense (it is *his* forum after all) and didn't really add anything to the topic discussion, it just seemed like a cheap shot.  The topic fizzled and you didn't pile on with any additional smarm, so I thunk, live and let live and decided not to comment on it.  

I don't really care if you guys want to trade barbs, it makes me no never-mind, I guess we just need to let you and Pundit know(or you guys need to realize it yourself) when it's disrupting a thread's topic.

But back to you regularly scheduled program....

THUNDERDOME!!!!!
TWO MEN ENTER!! ONE MAN LEAVES!!!
THUNDERDOME!!!!!


P.S. I should also point out Pundit also makes me ask WTF!?!?...but such is the Tao of Pundit....

P.P.S - I'm not sure the "measures" against you were necessary,  I'm more of a "Deadwood" mind than "Law & Order".  Posters should go down in a hail of bullets and gunsmoke...or something.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 14, 2006, 03:04:53 pm
Yeah, someone else (Spike?) mentioned posting in Pundit's area too. That was pretty silly of me.

The explanation (although not excuse) is that at the time I was really enjoying the Amber forums. Then I'm reading along and stumble across Pundit's abusive reply to a poster that suggested that perhaps Amber isn't perfect as currently written. I'd really hoped that area would be free of that sort of thing, if only out of respect for Mr. Wucjick whom Pundit seems to really revere.

When it turne out it wasn't I lashed out a bit in an irrational response.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: rcsample on December 14, 2006, 03:11:54 pm
Quote from: James McMurray
Then I'm reading along and stumble across Pundit's abusive reply to a poster that suggested that perhaps Amber isn't perfect as currently written.


I'd thought about going in the Amber forum and expressing my less-than-satisfactory experience with it.

But then I thought more about it and equated it to going into a Hell's Angels clubhouse and bitching about Harley-Davidson motorcycles...what would be the point?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 14, 2006, 03:16:43 pm
The post wasn't a bash on the game. It was just a guy that didn't like one aspect. There's lots of posts about alternative or house rules there, and I honestly don't know what was so bad about this one in particular.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: David R on December 14, 2006, 04:53:50 pm
James there is a perception out there about this site that we all think the same way the Pundit does. Add to this that some folks here were kicked out from TBP and we all know how the Pundit feels about that site, so naturaly this site is a breeding ground for Swine hate and all the stuff the Pundit rails against.

But the truth of the matter is, that there is a large group of folks who although they may share the same POV with regards to rpgs with the Pundit are not exactly proxies.

Now, many folks just want to come here and talk about rpgs and the occasional (from the usual suspects) flame about politics and stuff. That's cool. But, here's the thing. I've noticed whenever he makes a post in a style we are all familiar (and some detest) with, you are normaly the first one to reply. Sure he takes a dump on a subject but you are the first one (most times) to pick his poo and hurl it at him....sometimes derailing the conversation in the process. (I don't like the Pundit's style but he does raise some interesting questions and that's what I think this site should be about)

Which is fine I suppose but really, man, it seems like you are only here to face off with the Pundit. Which may not be the case, but it sure looks like it. Just don't rise to the bait and if you do, cut back on the snark...the Pundit sure has.

Really all this is unecessary, but it sure as hell looks as though you are stalking him. I mean, if Dom (no offence man :) ) can get by without so much as a warning, what the hell is an intelligent poster like you getting involved in shit like this? Cut back on the Pundit hunting...

Regards,
David R
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Kyle Aaron on December 14, 2006, 05:13:09 pm
James McMurray, your sin is not that you are flaming RPGPundit. He flames everyone and everything, so he brings it on himself and shouldn't cry like a little girl when some of the shit he flings at the fan spatters back at him.

Your sin is that you are repetitive and therefore boring. RPGPundit rants and raves and flames, but at least he varies his topics a bit. Isn't there anyone or anything else you hate? Rant about that, too! That's why we all make fun of Dominus Nox - he has just a couple of standard rants. We want variety in the mad rants and flamings. Entertain us, motherfucker.

RPGPundit's using the software to force you to put him on ignore is about the best solution, I think. It forces you to be more creative in your mad rants and flamings.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: jrients on December 14, 2006, 05:18:04 pm
Quote from: James McMurray
Have you been reading my posts since the truce? Do you think I've gone overboard anywhere (or even near the railing)? If so, please tell me where.


No, I haven't  I barely had time to write my last post.  I'm home with a sick kid today and my internet time is measurable in scant minutes.  I gotta say I am surprised to find this thread to be a couple pages longer than I last checked in.

I am exasperated.  Pundit, James asking you about your actual experience with Hackmaster is not an attack.  It's a legit question deserving an answer.  James, unless Pundit is talking 'bout your mama, the wise thing to do right now is to steer clear of responding to anything he writes.  You can complain that's not fair, but I'm not talking about right or wrong, I'm talking about what would be the smart move for you to make right now.  Both of you please stay your hand for a few days and let tempers cool.  James, you need to be cool if for no other reason than if Pundit over-reacts, I'm not here to talk him out of it.  Pundit, the way you handle this will be remembered by everyone out on the interweb who is gleefully waiting for you to fail.

I gotta go.  PLEASE: everybody be cool while I'm gone.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Mr. Christopher on December 14, 2006, 05:22:46 pm
Quote from: jrients
Pundit, the way you handle this will be remembered by everyone out on the interweb who is gleefully waiting for you to fail.

Quoted for truth. :pundit:
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James J Skach on December 14, 2006, 06:38:50 pm
Quote from: James McMurray
It was brought to my attention that there was a question about whether I'd have chilled out sooner if people had let me know it was bothering them. I'd like to point out two things in regards to that:

1) When Stuart mentioned his annoyance at the derailing of his competitve play thread by me and Pundit's discussion of Hackmaster I apologized and immediately tried to get that thread back on topic.

2) When all this first came to a head I told Pundit several times that I was poking fun at him for my own enjoyment and that I'd continued in public because I'd gotten a few PMs from people who were also enjoying it. I didn't get a single PM from anyone but Pundit saying it wasn't appreciated. If I had, I'd have stopped immediately.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled whatever it is you're talking about. :)

I know at least one (me) and I seem to recall at least one other who, in a thread (that I'm too lazy to look up), in public, not PMs, told you it was getting old.  You ignored it with some snide remarks. I didn't want to derail the thread any further, so I stopped objecting.

And this is the problem with community policing, as it were.  If the person being a dick doesn't want to listen when people are pointing it out, what do you do? Do you let the thread get derailed? Do you let, and I'm only using the case I saw as an example, James chase Pundit out of a thread because Pundit doesn't want to get into it with him and derail the thread further? Don't give me the pat silly answer that James chasing out Pundit is like...or that pundit shouldn't feel chased out. The fact is, if responding to someone more than once end up derailing a thread, what next?
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 14, 2006, 07:32:47 pm
David, we'd already called a "truce" and that behavior had stoped. This last bit was in reaction to our disagreement about Hackmaster, the worst of which involved him starting a thread to say that it's not a real game, and me questioning his ability to post anything but nonsense. In any case though, he's hidden his posts from me, so there's no way I could stalk him if I wanted to.

Quote
James, unless Pundit is talking 'bout your mama, the wise thing to do right now is to steer clear of responding to anything he writes.


Given that he's turned invisible, that's not an option anyway, even if he decides to talk about my mama.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 14, 2006, 07:33:27 pm
James, I honestly don't recall that, but if it happened shortly after the Amber incident I don't doubt it, and I apologize.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: Blackleaf on December 14, 2006, 08:03:59 pm
James, why not change your signature to something unrelated to the Pundit?  Focus on more positive things.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 14, 2006, 08:19:40 pm
I didn't have a signature before all this started (I rarely do). I was trying to avoid people seeing my posts and thinking I was spewing nonsense (except of course when I am spewing nonsense).
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 15, 2006, 02:04:18 am
Quote from: jrients
No, I haven't  I barely had time to write my last post.  I'm home with a sick kid today and my internet time is measurable in scant minutes.  I gotta say I am surprised to find this thread to be a couple pages longer than I last checked in.

I am exasperated.  Pundit, James asking you about your actual experience with Hackmaster is not an attack.  It's a legit question deserving an answer.  James, unless Pundit is talking 'bout your mama, the wise thing to do right now is to steer clear of responding to anything he writes.  You can complain that's not fair, but I'm not talking about right or wrong, I'm talking about what would be the smart move for you to make right now.  Both of you please stay your hand for a few days and let tempers cool.  James, you need to be cool if for no other reason than if Pundit over-reacts, I'm not here to talk him out of it.  Pundit, the way you handle this will be remembered by everyone out on the interweb who is gleefully waiting for you to fail.

I gotta go.  PLEASE: everybody be cool while I'm gone.


Yes, I agree, and its a double-edged sword. The problem is that if I did absolutely nothing, it would be a sign that this was definitely a blank cheque for a bunch of people who are NOT like James (ie. who don't have any real interest at all in participating in this site) coming in here and doing what James was doing but only much worse, to intentionally disrupt this site to the point of unusability.

On the other hand, they are all waiting for me to ban or censor someone so they can claim that I'm actually a hypocrite and as power-mad as any other Admin, as if one act on my behalf would somehow equate me to the hundreds of people who have been banned or the constant acts of censorship that occur on other boards.

As it is, I think that I've done the best thing I possibly could; I had provided countless attempts at communicating the problem, trying to negotiate a solution, and finally resorted to a measure that doesn't actually infringe James' freedom of speech on this site at all.  And hopefully, it'll be a temporary measure at that.

I want to make it clear that I'm sure that, someday, I will have to ban someone.  It should also be perfectly clear that James was NEVER under consideration for being that someone; and that whoever it ends up being will not be someone like James, but someone who comes here only and expressly to fuck up the site for all of us.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 15, 2006, 02:06:32 am
*sigh* Yes, the sig does smack of passive-aggresion. But whatever, if that's as bad as James' reaction to all this gets, I can live with that.

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: hgjs on December 15, 2006, 02:24:29 am
Quote from: James McMurray
It was brought to my attention that there was a question about whether I'd have chilled out sooner if people had let me know it was bothering them. I'd like to point out two things in regards to that:

1) When Stuart mentioned his annoyance at the derailing of his competitve play thread by me and Pundit's discussion of Hackmaster I apologized and immediately tried to get that thread back on topic.

2) When all this first came to a head I told Pundit several times that I was poking fun at him for my own enjoyment and that I'd continued in public because I'd gotten a few PMs from people who were also enjoying it. I didn't get a single PM from anyone but Pundit saying it wasn't appreciated. If I had, I'd have stopped immediately.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled whatever it is you're talking about. :)


Speaking for myself, I found it annoying when threads I was interested in kept on devolving into you and the RPG Pundit taking shots at each other.  I didn't say anything about it 'cause I just figured that was your thing.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: droog on December 15, 2006, 06:40:02 am
Pundog, what you did is fair enough, I guess. But why don't you try just ignoring James if you think he's trying to be disruptive? I mean the old-fashioned way. Let him see what you say, let him try to provoke you (if that's what he's doing). Then don't respond. If you ignore people, they stop bothering you.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: TonyLB on December 15, 2006, 09:15:13 am
Yeah, I'd echo droogs question.  Why this, rather than ignore-listing him (or, even harder, reading his posts and then choosing not to respond) yourself?

I tend to think of the IL feature as a way a person can help themselves to stand down.  "Go ahead, post what you want, I'm not rising to that bait, because I've chosen not to."  It's an act of wise surrender.

Forcing it on someone else, though ... I don't quite know what to make of that.  "Okay, I'm gonna post whatever I want, and you're not going to respond, because I've chosen not to allow you."  Wierd.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 15, 2006, 10:35:09 am
Quote from: TonyLB
Yeah, I'd echo droogs question.  Why this, rather than ignore-listing him (or, even harder, reading his posts and then choosing not to respond) yourself?

I tend to think of the IL feature as a way a person can help themselves to stand down.  "Go ahead, post what you want, I'm not rising to that bait, because I've chosen not to."  It's an act of wise surrender.

Forcing it on someone else, though ... I don't quite know what to make of that.  "Okay, I'm gonna post whatever I want, and you're not going to respond, because I've chosen not to allow you."  Wierd.


As the Admin, I can't actually put myself in a position where I can't see what James is doing, both literally and in terms of responsibilities to the site.

Its tough, but ultimately that's reality: I'm the Alpha here, so I'm not going to blind myself to his shenanigans when I can just blind him to me.

As for why I couldn't just "ignore what he wrote"; the problem is that he was regularly posting in threads I was writing to; when I ignored him, he'd just keep doing it, with other ad hominems.  It became pretty obvious that the guy wasn't going to give up.

In any case, why the fuck should I have to restrict or punish myself for HIS actions? Fuck that.
Like I said, in the end, I'm the Alpha Male here. Up until now I'd never done a single fucking thing that would count as "exerting my authority" as an Admin, so I really didn't get where James' little "challenge the Alpha" deal was really coming from (since, unlike the two of you, he didn't seem to be a guy with massive Forgist sympathies trying to snipe just out of general fear of what my success would mean or hatred of my refusal to recognize the Swine's claims about RPGs), it was just a general issue with picking me out as the Alpha.  
Well, fine; that's what happens in the end. He got bit in the snout.

I'm very patient of criticism here, about two thousand times more patient than any of the websites which my potential critics would hold up as more sterling examples (so them claiming I'm somehow "power tripping" here is a pretty baldfaced and baseless assertion; no one would be allowed to say or do the things either James, Tony or Droog have done toward me on here if it was to Cessna or Curt on RPG.net, or Ron Edwards on the Forge; unlike them, I tolerate all kinds of open dissent), but in the end I also WILL NOT allow this site to be ruined by a bunch of clever guys trying to abuse that patience in order to collapse all discourse with carpet bombing of "pissing all over the RPGPundit".

RPGPundit
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: TonyLB on December 15, 2006, 10:49:57 am
Quote from: RPGPundit
so them claiming I'm somehow "power tripping" here is a pretty baldfaced and baseless assertion
Did somebody say that? :confused:
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 15, 2006, 01:43:00 pm
I couldn't find any accusations of power tripping through the search function, and don't recall any being made.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: TonyLB on December 15, 2006, 01:50:22 pm
>shrug<  Ah well, in any event, he's logically correct:  If such statements are made, I'm in agreement that they're bunk.  Pundit isn't using power for the sake of using power.  That doesn't mean that he's doing it for the selfless pursuit of everyone's happiness, either, but I certainly don't see any evidence that he's doing it because he likes the power.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: James McMurray on December 15, 2006, 02:07:03 pm
Yeah. If he (or any of the mods) were prone to that sort of behavior this would be a vastly different place.
Title: An Open Letter to James McMurray
Post by: RPGPundit on December 15, 2006, 04:20:44 pm
My statements above were meant to be more of a "vaccination" argument than a response to anything said thus far. I know that there's more than enough people out there who would be prone to saying things like this, and the best defense is a good offense.

RPGPundit