Quote from: WillInNewHaven;995863In both of the GoT examples you give, a much more capable combatant is being hired by a less capable one. Tyrion may be, in some sense, a higher-level character than Bronn but Catelyn Stark is not a higher-level character than Brienne. Of course, this makes sense. If you have the money to hire the best, you don't worry that he or she might be better than you are. Not that you're wrong about the main issue but it's odd.

I agree, for me (watching the tv show, havent read the books) Bronn and Brienne are both high level fighters. Tyrion and Catelyn are likely zero level NPCs, or maybe Tyrion is a low level rogue or bard or something, I dunno.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;996075I never bought or played Chivalry and Sorcery because I had all the translated sources that they'd cribbed from and didn't cite.

I approve the indirect assertion of superiority inherent in this remark.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;996059What was so bad about them?

In one sense, nothing. It's a fantasy setting and posits some things that are less likely but are accepted. But no one I played with accepted the idea that social or military rank automatically goes with puissance. Sure, if you got enough money, you could hire people and you would outrank them. And you could build a stronghold but the local Baron would not acknowledge you his equal.

It took all of the first campaign in my world, starting out in D&D and partly moving to AD&D1, for Sir William Thomas and his friends to overthrow the usurper Duke of the Lake Country but William did not expect to be made Duke. Eventually, he was, but not because he reached a certain level.

Quote from: Psikerlord;996101I agree, for me (watching the tv show, havent read the books) Bronn and Brienne are both high level fighters. Tyrion and Catelyn are likely zero level NPCs, or maybe Tyrion is a low level rogue or bard or something, I dunno.

Within the focus of the show, Tyrion and Catelyn clearly are/were more important than Bronn & Brienne; fighting ability is not that important (pre-3e Thieves were crappy fighters anyway); they are clearly good at 'doing stuff'. If they're in a D&D game it's one with a Noble PC class. Look at how they both turn neutrals/hostiles into followers. So the example works fine for me.

Quote from: WillInNewHaven;996255Sure, if you got enough money, you could hire people and you would outrank them. And you could build a stronghold but the local Baron would not acknowledge you his equal.

It took all of the first campaign in my world, starting out in D&D and partly moving to AD&D1, for Sir William Thomas and his friends to overthrow the usurper Duke of the Lake Country but William did not expect to be made Duke. Eventually, he was, but not because he reached a certain level.

The model of OD&D more closely matches the robber barons of the Germany region than the High Middle Ages of England.  And the very basis of lordship in the early middle ages was "you are tough enough to take this land and hold it."

Exactly. You're not made Duke because you've now reached 9th level. It's not like getting a certificate or something. It's not "you're 9th level so someone gives you a baronetcy", it's "you're 9th level, enough people have heard of you to take you seriously, so if they hear you're building something, they'll come to you as followers."

You could at 1st level start putting one stone on top of another, or at 3rd level you could find a keep abandoned by plague, clear out the corpses and raise your flag, but nobody will have heard of you, so you'll be sitting there on your own. But you won't get to 9th level without doing something someone has heard of, some great deed.

Remember: you must build the stronghold and clear the surrounding hexes. You're not given a pre-built one with lands already cleared. And here's the key thing: this attempt may fail. Maybe the monsters get you. Maybe the King hears of your clearing land on his borderlands and sends someone to stop you, or waits till you're almost finished and sends his nephew with a banner to say, "thankyou for your hard work, now piss off and Sir Nephew will become Baron Nephew."

There's a lot you guys don't get. But you're used to later editions, where you start powerful, only deal with encounters exactly tailored to your abilities, and provide the DM with a shopping list of magic items you want. You're not used to having to actually earn your fortune and fame by a combination of wits and luck, so you don't realise that still applies with the stronghold and lordship stuff.

That sounds really cool. Does that mean it's like a requirement for becoming 9th level? You have to establish a stronghold and clear the hexes?

Quote from: S'mon;996276Within the focus of the show, Tyrion and Catelyn clearly are/were more important than Bronn & Brienne; fighting ability is not that important (pre-3e Thieves were crappy fighters anyway); they are clearly good at 'doing stuff'. If they're in a D&D game it's one with a Noble PC class. Look at how they both turn neutrals/hostiles into followers. So the example works fine for me.

I agree high level nobles, if you have a noble class

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;996377That sounds really cool. Does that mean it's like a requirement for becoming 9th level? You have to establish a stronghold and clear the hexes?

It's not a requirement but it could be.  At that point if you do you're a fiefholder or landholder and now one of the Big Players.  Or in later parlance, you can now become either a Point of Light or a Pit of Darkness.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;996365There's a lot you guys don't get. But you're used to later editions, where you start powerful, only deal with encounters exactly tailored to your abilities, and provide the DM with a shopping list of magic items you want. You're not used to having to actually earn your fortune and fame by a combination of wits and luck, so you don't realise that still applies with the stronghold and lordship stuff.

Jesus dude, I know you're 100% correct and everything, but you're gonna give poor Brady PTSD.  Either that or a stroke.

I never started powerful in OD&D or AD&D1 and those are the editions I have played extensively. I didn't start powerful in the 5e oneshot I played in last year. I never started powerful in RuneQuest and when SunSpear walked the length of Shadows Dance he was not dealing with an encounter exactly tailored to his abilities. The GM never thought we'd go there at that time. Shouldn't have. No one else survived.

The idea of the non-automatic ability to build a stronghold, maybe get knighted or ennobled, when you get good enough has some appeal but no one I know read the rules that way. It always looked to us like you always got promoted to Captain when you could beat up a Lieutenant and no one thought much of that.

That's because it's a set of guidelines for people who already knew what was going on.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;996409That's because it's a set of guidelines for people who already knew what was going on.

Which means that people who weren't there at the time had to figure it out. We got most of it pretty quickly. It was like the time years ago when ESPN had no major US sports to broadcast, so they showed Australian Rules football. They got the feed directly from an Australian network and the announcers never explained anything. When someone got ahold of the rules by writing ESPN, we compared them to what we had guessed were the rules and we had been right about all of them.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;996365Exactly. You're not made Duke because you've now reached 9th level. It's not like getting a certificate or something. It's not "you're 9th level so someone gives you a baronetcy", it's "you're 9th level, enough people have heard of you to take you seriously, so if they hear you're building something, they'll come to you as followers."

You could at 1st level start putting one stone on top of another, or at 3rd level you could find a keep abandoned by plague, clear out the corpses and raise your flag, but nobody will have heard of you, so you'll be sitting there on your own. But you won't get to 9th level without doing something someone has heard of, some great deed.

Remember: you must build the stronghold and clear the surrounding hexes. You're not given a pre-built one with lands already cleared. And here's the key thing: this attempt may fail. Maybe the monsters get you. Maybe the King hears of your clearing land on his borderlands and sends someone to stop you, or waits till you're almost finished and sends his nephew with a banner to say, "thankyou for your hard work, now piss off and Sir Nephew will become Baron Nephew."

There's a lot you guys don't get. But you're used to later editions, where you start powerful, only deal with encounters exactly tailored to your abilities, and provide the DM with a shopping list of magic items you want. You're not used to having to actually earn your fortune and fame by a combination of wits and luck, so you don't realise that still applies with the stronghold and lordship stuff.

Can't wait for the outraged blowback!

In the two AD&D 2e games that actually made it past level 8 that I ran, none of my players ever 'cleared any hexes' or captured a keep.  They didn't care, they just wanted to continue to explore the land, destroy evil and loot the bodies.  So honestly, this has been a learning exercise for me.  I appreciate it, thank you.

In fact, if I remember correctly, (It has been a couple of decades) my players in the game we had to end at 14th level, were knights/lords to a High King (whom I had no idea how the medieval societies worked back in my late, late teens, I treated like a Dark Age noble) by the end of it.