Actually there might be a way to make this economical and sensible. Have there be water on the world, but make it contaminated with something biological (virus or bacteria or byproduct of either) that also taints the atmosphere. On world sources of water can't be used and water shipped in becomes contaminated within a few (1D) days.

Quote from: AsenRG;994798Well, technically, there is a way to make up for this, depending on setting's technology  and for a limited time. If the jump or jumps would be faster than going to the belt and mining asteroids or comets, and the Belt is far enough, it might be economically viable just this once.

Well certainly. If were making a space station instead of an on-planet mine, we wouldn't bat an eye at them shipping in the water any more than we would the atmosphere or bulkheads that made up the station.

I think the overall argument is that hydrogen is abundant in all star systems. Oxygen is abundant in all star systems with the potential for mining. The idea of shipping in the bulk elements from however many jumps away (where you have to burn 10% of total mass of ship in hydrogen per parsec moved) just doesn't seem like it would make sense for any length of time. Obviously we can all dream up counter-narratives (after all, we have oil-producing countries in our world today who import gasoline). It all depends on whether the technological hurdles (and investments, in time and money) required in extracting H and O from the system vs. the investment of transit. And shipping stuff around in the Traveller-verse is actually relatively costly.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;994832Well certainly. If were making a space station instead of an on-planet mine, we wouldn't bat an eye at them shipping in the water any more than we would the atmosphere or bulkheads that made up the station.

I think the overall argument is that hydrogen is abundant in all star systems. Oxygen is abundant in all star systems with the potential for mining. The idea of shipping in the bulk elements from however many jumps away (where you have to burn 10% of total mass of ship in hydrogen per parsec moved) just doesn't seem like it would make sense for any length of time. Obviously we can all dream up counter-narratives (after all, we have oil-producing countries in our world today who import gasoline). It all depends on whether the technological hurdles (and investments, in time and money) required in extracting H and O from the system vs. the investment of transit. And shipping stuff around in the Traveller-verse is actually relatively costly.

That's why I specified it would work as a one-time event in case of emergency:).

Quote from: Schwartzwald;994430Not to bust on your post but in all fairness traveller tech may have developed to a point water wasn't needed for mining.  

Maybe. But the continued presence of shotguns and cutlasses and multi-tonne computers in the original game doesn't suggest that. Mostly it's like Aliens - "late 20th century plus fusion power and jump drive".

Some things are just chemistry. And chemistry needs water. If cheap abundant heat and electricity helped mining it might be less lasers and centrifuges, and more being able to make water from local minerals and atmospheres.

I'm all up for the PC's ship towing a massive iceberg in space - or towing a derelict ship. Whether it makes economic sense or not doesn't bother me. "Well, this is the price they'll pay you for it."
"But that doesn't make sense because -"
"So you're turning down 100,000 credits? Okay."
"Well no but -"

It's like when people are thinking about a postapocalyptic world, how did it get like that? My answer is, "Interesting question, dear players: now how will your characters go about finding out?"

It doesn't have to make perfect sense. The real world certainly doesn't.

You guys have given me some good ideas, thanks! That was really just a thought off the top of my head after thinking about some sci fi tropes of desert planets like Dune and Tatooine and then thinking about the Ice Pirates movie. I was thinking about some interesting worlds for a Traveller game. Another I want to rip off nearly wholesale is Scar, from The Jester at Scar. Harvesting dangerous fungus to scrape by...

Just run the numbers     Take a J2 200T free trader strip out everything, think crew of 2-4 one cabin.  This is sweat work.   How many runs per quarter? 4x3=12, no maintenance or just in flight. Or maybe 11 per quarter.  So 44 per year.  What the yearly payment on the ship, the rules give it.   Yearly salaries for crew, that given too.  Add it all together to get yearly cost divide by liters hauled to get credits per liter.  Go on google n see how various lifestyles consume water.  But bare min is a liter per day.  Say 400 liters year min for a human.

Water Connoisseurs.  An economy that is shipping out a commodity much more valuable to a majority of economies than to their own.  The ships are coming back anyway.  Sure there is plenty of enough money being provided to produce water on world, but there is also enough money to provide exotic off world water.  Coffee shops, ice, spa treatments, etc..  Water is a status symbol worth the cost.

I agree with Gunslinger.

Transport the Traveller equivalent of EVIAN. Amazon lists Evian for $22 for 6 half-liter bottles.

Here's an article explaining why Evian is expensive.
http://dollarsandsense.sg/3-reasons-why-evian-water-is-so-expensive/

Ok, using the Classic Traveller trading rules and selling the colonists Evian we get this business model;

ESS Sun Bride - Traveller Water Hauler, 200 Ton Type A Free Trader

Ebay currently has Evian going for $4 a liter.
So if we go dollars to credits, we get;
 
985 Metric Liters equals 1 Metric Ton.
So 1 Metric ton of Evian goes for 3,940 Cr

So you average Far Trader with a cargo space of 82 tons can make 25 2j shipments a year providing a desert planet with 2,050 Metric Tons of Water.

This will support approximately 4,000 colonists providing a water ration of 1L a day (With considerable high-efficiency recycling as well as moisture conservation, of course, this can turn entire swaths of a desert planet green).

So, this water transport will earn $8,077,000 Credits just hauling water. On the return trip from the desert planet to the water planet, good cargoes would be Petrochemicals 10,000 Cr/ton Radioactives 1,000,000 Cr per ton, Crystals 20,000 Cr per ton, and Pharmaceuticals 100,000 cr per ton so…

My average purchase Dms ensure I can buy the cargos at 50% of the listed values so… a typpical haul would be

Start on the Water planet
Buy 82 tons of water at $1,970 Cr per ton  
$161,540 Cr

Fly 2 Jumps to the Desert Planet, this takes a day to travel out, two weeks for two jumps, another day of travel to dock One day to trade cargoes. Sell the water for 3,940 Cr per ton and earn 323,080 Cr

Buy cargo at the desert Planet for the water planet.
2 Tons of Radioactives, 1,000,000 Cr
6 Tons of Pharmaceuticals 300,000 Cr
3 Tons of Crystals 30,000 Cr.
71 Tons of Petrochemicals @ 5,000 Cr per ton 355,000 Cr

Total Price  1,685,000 Cr

Then 1 day to travel, Two weeks for the two Jumps, and a day of travel to dock yet again.

Sell the cargo at 100% of price on water planet.
2 Tons of Radioactives 2,000,000 Cr
6 Tons of of Pharmaceuticals 600,000, cr
3 Tons of Crystals 60,000 Cr
71 tons of Petrochemicals 710,000 Cr
Gross Earnings   3,370,000 Cr + 323,080 for a grand total of 3,693,080 Cr in four weeks and four days. Ten trips a year like this are possible, so;
Gross Annual Income for the Sun Bride is 36,930,800 Cr.


Now our expenses.

Cargo costs per trip
1,685,000 Cr + 161,540 Cr =
18,465,400 Cr per year.

Net Profit: 18,465,400 Cr per year

Now let's take a look at Sun Bride's Annual Operating Expenses

Annual Jump Drive Fuel Costs 30 tons per jump @ 4 jumps = 120*10 trips = 1200 tons
Annual Maneuver Drive Fuel Costs (see above)
600,000 Cr. Annually

Staterooms (Life support, etc.)
400,000 Cr Annually 10 staterooms * 4,000 Cr per round trip

Ship's Maintenance
37,080 Cr annually

Crew Payments
Captain 1,475,454 Cr (10% of the Net Profits)
Pilot 72,000 Cr Annually (+2.5% of net profits as bonus)
Engineer 48,000 Cr Annually (+2.5% of net profits as bonus)
Medic 24,000 Cr Annually (+2.5% of net profits as bonus)
Steward 36,000 Cr Annually (+2.5% of net profits as bonus)
Crew Total: 180,000 Cr per year (not counting the Captain and bonuses)

Standard 30 year Mortgage payment on the Sun Bride
37,080,000 Cr Purchase price.
29,664,000 Cr @ 30 years 7.5% Mortgage (this is the financed amount -20% down payment).
207,415 cr per month or
2,488,980 Cr annually

Standard Berthing Costs 400 Cr per month
4,800 Credits Annually

Total Annual Expenses
5,186,314

Captains Annual Salary
1,475,454 Cr

Net Annual Profits (after profit sharing with the entire crew)
11,803,632 Cr


Sun Bride can also sell and transport an additional 60 High or Mid passenger Tickets and 400 Low passage tickets for Interstellar Travellers to earn up to an addition 600,000 Cr (high passage) or 480,000 Cr (Mid passage) and possibly an additional 400,000 Cr for low passage passengers, between the two worlds. So possibly an additional 1,480,000 cr may be earned annually.


Little known facts
Total cost of this thirty year Starship Mortgage (premium + interest);
74,669,397 Cr

A far Trader being a Jump 1 ship, requires a fast refueling station that needs to be established 1J out where the starship can be refueled as the second jump is plotted, all this need to happen in about twelve hours or so, in between jumps twenty times a year.

Each crew member on the water hauler will receive an annual profit sharing bonus whose average value will be 368,863 Cr

Game Daddy, thanks for crunching those numbers! I never expected this thread would get so many interesting responses and ideas. Good job, everyone! I'll have to bounce more ideas off this wall...

Traveller is not a simulator.

Shawn is not a stimulator.

Quote from: Dumarest;995023You guys have given me some good ideas, thanks! That was really just a thought off the top of my head after thinking about some sci fi tropes of desert planets like Dune and Tatooine and then thinking about the Ice Pirates movie. I was thinking about some interesting worlds for a Traveller game. Another I want to rip off nearly wholesale is Scar, from The Jester at Scar. Harvesting dangerous fungus to scrape by...

You're welcome;)!

Quote from: GameDaddy;995293Ok, using the Classic Traveller trading rules and selling the colonists Evian we get this business model;

ESS Sun Bride - Traveller Water Hauler, 200 Ton Type A Free Trader

Ebay currently has Evian going for $4 a liter.
So if we go dollars to credits, we get;
 
985 Metric Liters equals 1 Metric Ton.
So 1 Metric ton of Evian goes for 3,940 Cr

So you average Far Trader with a cargo space of 82 tons can make 25 2j shipments a year providing a desert planet with 2,050 Metric Tons of Water.

This will support approximately 4,000 colonists providing a water ration of 1L a day (With considerable high-efficiency recycling as well as moisture conservation, of course, this can turn entire swaths of a desert planet green).

So, this water transport will earn $8,077,000 Credits just hauling water. On the return trip from the desert planet to the water planet, good cargoes would be Petrochemicals 10,000 Cr/ton Radioactives 1,000,000 Cr per ton, Crystals 20,000 Cr per ton, and Pharmaceuticals 100,000 cr per ton so...

My average purchase Dms ensure I can buy the cargos at 50% of the listed values so... a typpical haul would be

Start on the Water planet
Buy 82 tons of water at $1,970 Cr per ton  
$161,540 Cr

Fly 2 Jumps to the Desert Planet, this takes a day to travel out, two weeks for two jumps, another day of travel to dock One day to trade cargoes. Sell the water for 3,940 Cr per ton and earn 323,080 Cr

Buy cargo at the desert Planet for the water planet.
2 Tons of Radioactives, 1,000,000 Cr
6 Tons of Pharmaceuticals 300,000 Cr
3 Tons of Crystals 30,000 Cr.
71 Tons of Petrochemicals @ 5,000 Cr per ton 355,000 Cr

Total Price  1,685,000 Cr

Then 1 day to travel, Two weeks for the two Jumps, and a day of travel to dock yet again.

Sell the cargo at 100% of price on water planet.
2 Tons of Radioactives 2,000,000 Cr
6 Tons of of Pharmaceuticals 600,000, cr
3 Tons of Crystals 60,000 Cr
71 tons of Petrochemicals 710,000 Cr
Gross Earnings   3,370,000 Cr + 323,080 for a grand total of 3,693,080 Cr in four weeks and four days. Ten trips a year like this are possible, so;
Gross Annual Income for the Sun Bride is 36,930,800 Cr.


Now our expenses.

Cargo costs per trip
1,685,000 Cr + 161,540 Cr =
18,465,400 Cr per year.

Net Profit: 18,465,400 Cr per year

Now let's take a look at Sun Bride's Annual Operating Expenses

Annual Jump Drive Fuel Costs 30 tons per jump @ 4 jumps = 120*10 trips = 1200 tons
Annual Maneuver Drive Fuel Costs (see above)
600,000 Cr. Annually

Staterooms (Life support, etc.)
400,000 Cr Annually 10 staterooms * 4,000 Cr per round trip

Ship's Maintenance
37,080 Cr annually

Crew Payments
Captain 1,475,454 Cr (10% of the Net Profits)
Pilot 72,000 Cr Annually (+2.5% of net profits as bonus)
Engineer 48,000 Cr Annually (+2.5% of net profits as bonus)
Medic 24,000 Cr Annually (+2.5% of net profits as bonus)
Steward 36,000 Cr Annually (+2.5% of net profits as bonus)
Crew Total: 180,000 Cr per year (not counting the Captain and bonuses)

Standard 30 year Mortgage payment on the Sun Bride
37,080,000 Cr Purchase price.
29,664,000 Cr @ 30 years 7.5% Mortgage (this is the financed amount -20% down payment).
207,415 cr per month or
2,488,980 Cr annually

Standard Berthing Costs 400 Cr per month
4,800 Credits Annually

Total Annual Expenses
5,186,314

Captains Annual Salary
1,475,454 Cr

Net Annual Profits (after profit sharing with the entire crew)
11,803,632 Cr


Sun Bride can also sell and transport an additional 60 High or Mid passenger Tickets and 400 Low passage tickets for Interstellar Travellers to earn up to an addition 600,000 Cr (high passage) or 480,000 Cr (Mid passage) and possibly an additional 400,000 Cr for low passage passengers, between the two worlds. So possibly an additional 1,480,000 cr may be earned annually.


Little known facts
Total cost of this thirty year Starship Mortgage (premium + interest);
74,669,397 Cr

A far Trader being a Jump 1 ship, requires a fast refueling station that needs to be established 1J out where the starship can be refueled as the second jump is plotted, all this need to happen in about twelve hours or so, in between jumps twenty times a year.

Each crew member on the water hauler will receive an annual profit sharing bonus whose average value will be 368,863 Cr

Then throw out some other Free Traders who want in on the sweet deals, and are willing to shoulder-push you out of them, for extra fun. Who says economics can't drive a fun game:D?

Quote from: Dumarest;995333Game Daddy, thanks for crunching those numbers! I never expected this thread would get so many interesting responses and ideas. Good job, everyone! I'll have to bounce more ideas off this wall...

Hrmm? Yes! I did miscalculate the total volume of water to be shipped though figuring initially twenty-five 2j trips each with water instead of ten round trip jumps with a single transport, including the two week downtime for annual maintenance. While the finance calculations are basically correct for the operation of the Sun Bride, the ten annual shipments from the water planet will provide only 810 Metric Tons of water which will support only 797,850 Liters of water which is enough to support 1,994 colonists instead of 4,000. ...So, a single Type A Far Trader can support just a hair under 2,000 colonists annually.

A few additional notes;
There are about 5-7 days a year extra in a calender year where the starship is not required to be in service or maintenance. These off-work Holiday dates can be at the discretion of the ships Captain.

With the net profits from this regularly scheduled trade run, three additional Type-A Free Traders can be purchased and put into service every two years, adding enough water for an additional 6,000 or so colonists, so the colony is limited to growth to about +3,000 colonists a year, on average. In ten years the colony would grow from 2,000 to 32,000 plus whatever the difference is between local childbirths and deaths. Historically in the last century, the population growth rate has been about 1-2% for the last century, so there would be approximately 32,120 after ten years at the colony. This number can easily change though if additional merchant companies build starships and ship water to the desert planet.

About 10% of the initial colonists, or 200 or so, would be required to work in the Industries that provide desert planet exports of Radioactives, Crystals, Pharmaceuticals,and Petrochemicals. of the other 1,800 or so initial settlers, I figure about half would be required to maintain and administer the colony, so that leaves 800 who could pick their professions (Mining, Agriculture, industry/manufacturing, Military/Mercenary Service, Science, or R&D) which would have the desert planet colony generate resources and additional exports which would be available as cargos.

The real moneymaker in this process is the extraction and refinement of radioactives which generates almost 1/3 of the total and more than 1/2 of the net profits for the colony. Next most profitable export would be, of course, the pharmaceuticals, although once manufacturing was ramped up, finished medical and science equipment, vehicles, aircraft, watercraft, robotics, spare parts, and spacecraft would all be good economic bets as desert planet exports.

There's also an excellent opportunity for one or more water recycling, water storage, and water distribution companies to be built. Any long-term disruption in the water transport service could prove hazardous to the colony, unless of course redundancy is built in with water storage and distrubtion facilities that could continue to provide water until whatever transport crisis exists would be over. Note also the local population would be highly motivated to ensure the continuance of the water supply, because water equals life for the colony... as well as freedom (a secondary benefit).

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;995391Traveller is not a simulator.

And you have nothing to contribute and feel left out of the conversation and desperately want affirmation as an authority on Traveller. Be sure to pout about that on YouTube where it will be duly ignored, much like your pointless blog.